Thailand's Political Landmark Talks End Without Resolution

[webfact]

Thailand's televised protest talks end without resolution

by Thanaporn Promyamyai

BANGKOK (AFP) -- Live televised talks between Thailand's embattled Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and anti-government protesters ended Sunday without resolution, failing to end two weeks of street demonstrations.

The premier refused to bow to the red-shirted demonstrators demand to call snap elections, but both sides agreed to meet the next day at 6:00 pm (1100 GMT) to continue discussions.

"House dissolution can only happen if we see it is not only the way out for the Reds but for the whole country also," Abhisit told three Red Shirt leaders across a meeting table as he sat flanked by two of his senior staff.

The Reds' Jatuporn Prompan, one of the leaders of the movement that backs deposed premier Thaksin Shinawatra, said they would return to the table on Monday, but pressed the prime minister to meet their request within a fortnight.

"We ask you to dissolve the house within two weeks. Whatever your decision should be, if we talk tomorrow, I want you to consider this condition," Jatuporn told Abhisit.

The Reds have staged a series of mass dramatic stunts over the past two weeks in their bid to force Abhisit to call snap elections, picketing the army barracks where he is holed up and throwing their own blood at his office gates.

Abhisit had ruled out talks earlier Sunday, but made an about-face later in the day and looked visibly uneasy throughout much of the three-hour meeting with the Red Shirt leaders, held at a Bangkok educational institute.

The Red Shirts are opposed to Abhisit's Democrat-led government, accusing it of being undemocratic as it came to power on the back of a parliamentary vote that followed a controversial court ruling ousting Thaksin's allies from power.

They seek the return of the twice-elected populist Thaksin, a former telecoms tycoon, saying that the coup that ousted him in 2006 was illegal.

"If you are confident of winning an election, you should return power to the people," Jatuporn told Abhisit. Polls are due to be held by December 2011.

Tens of thousands of protesters sat at their rally ground in Bangkok's government quarter Sunday to watch the televised talks on a giant screen, waving their signature plastic clappers as their leaders spoke.

The Reds upped the pressure on Abhisit on the weekend, threatening to march in their tens of thousands on the military barracks where he has been holed up.

Their movement is drawn largely from the country's rural poor who say the British-born Oxford-educated Abhisit is only able to lead the government's fragile six-party coalition with the powerful military's backing.

Thailand political analyst and Thaksin biographer Chris Baker said Abhisit's decision to enter talks revealed more about the feelings of other establishment figures who back the weakened premier.

"How do the military and various other people think they can best manage the situation?... I think they're likely to think Abhisit's quite simply expendable," he said.

"I don't think these talks will be over so quickly," Baker said.

The Reds are riding high after a rally Saturday that drew 80,000 people and forced troops to retreat from several security posts in the heart of the capital where they have been stationed since the demonstrations began.

The military has mounted a massive security operation involving 50,000 personnel for the demonstrations, which began on March 14 after a court ruling that seized 1.4 billion dollars of Thaksin's fortune.

Street demonstrations have passed off peacefully but the capital has been hit by a series of explosions at government and army buildings.

A dozen people were injured over the weekend, including four soldiers wounded Sunday when grenades were lobbed at the gate of the barracks where Abhisit has been forced to live and work since the protests began.

Thaksin, who is staying in Dubai to avoid a jail sentence for corruption, addresses his supporters regularly by videolink and last week urged them to increase pressure on the government.

-- ©Copyright AFP 2010-03-28

Published with written approval from AFP.

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[way2muchcoffee]

Here's my summary of the talks. I posted this on another thread, but it seems more appropriate here.

The redshirt side want immediate dissolution of the house with a general election to follow within a few months. They believe that the coup initiated a series of events that perverted justice and the political system. They do not see any other way out of the current impasse except to press the reset button. After the election they want the current constitution to either be scrapped or amended. They believe that the military had undue influence in both the writing of the constitution and of the way in which it was voted on in a referendum. They believe that the new constitution perverted the electoral process. The object to way in which political parties are disbanded and in which other parties come to power. They will stand by the election results and want whoever is in power to make constitutional changes.

The government is willing to dissolve the house but they believe that before that can be done the constitution must be amended. The government is frustrated because constitutional amendments were originally requested by the PTP. The government bent over backwards to make this happen and even included amendments that the Democrats didn't support in the name of reconciliation, only to have Thaksin call in and order the PTP to pull out of the constitutional amendment process at the last minute. Since the redshirts have stated that it is the coup and the following constitution that must be changed because it provides an unfair election process, the government believes that the constitution must be amended before any election can be held. Otherwise the election could produce the kind of unwanted results that the redshirts are decrying. The government is principally concerned about what would happen if, after the election, the exectuves of PTP or any other party were found to have committed electoral fraud. In this case that party would be disbanded as required by the constitution. This would then create exactly the same situation Thailand is in right now.

The government also emphasized the point that they must represent the interests of all of the people of Thailand. They are not in a position to unilaterally make agreements to appease one group of Thais at the expense of the others. The government position is that it must consider the needs of all Thais, not just the redshirts, but that it appreciates the redshirt position and is more than happy to allow them to demonstrate as is their constitutional right. It also expressed a strong desire to work jointly with the redshirt leaders for a sensible way out of the current quagmire, through sensible talks and compromise.

At the end of the talks Weng accused the government of murdering redshirts during Songkran last year. Veera was uncertain whether further talks would be fruitful. Jatuporn gave the government an ultimatum - you have 2-weeks to dissolve parliament. Abhisit was frustrated, but hopeful that talks would continue and that cooler heads might prevail and that a compromise could be reached for the good of all Thai people and for the nation of Thailand. They all agreed to meet again tomorrow evening to continue talks.

Edited March 28, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[Insight]

Abhisit had ruled out talks earlier Sunday, but made an about-face later in the day and looked visibly uneasy throughout much of the three-hour meeting with the Red Shirt leaders, held at a Bangkok educational institute.

He did...!?!

I noticed a bit of a smirk when Juttaporn tired to convince us all again Thaksin is not involved, but I wouldn't use the word "uneasy" to describe his expression.

[jdinasia]

Hmmmm your boys Sae daeng and Arisman could certainly be described as having committed terrorist acts, wouldn't you agree? Or are you so far gone that Arisman telling one million people to bring an empty one liter bottle (to be filled with petrol in BKK) to burn BKK down isn't a terroristic threat? (Context -- Songkran last year's malotov cocktails ---) Sae Daeng's threats of grenade attacks (right after he met with Thaksin) that immediatly started happening.

nah --- you believe in Thaksin, it couldn't be that he meets with vile people like that! (oh crap! there are pictures of those meetings!)

edit -- sorry there was supposed to be a quote from Rainman in here ....

Edited March 28, 2010 by jdinasia

[neverdie]

Its a sad thing in these threads when you point out something that a certain red shirter wont agree with, you instantly are branded a yellow shirt. For the record Rainman, I'm neither, so you are wrong assuming what you previously assumed. You really need to get over yourself.

These talks are always going to end without resolution because neither side is prepared to listen to the other side.......its as simple as that really.

[basjke]

The Reds' Jatuporn Prompan, one of the leaders of the movement that backs deposed premier Thaksin Shinawatra, said they would return to the table on Monday, but pressed the prime minister to meet their request within a fortnight.

"We ask you to dissolve the house within two weeks. Whatever your decision should be, if we talk tomorrow, I want you to consider this condition," Jatuporn told Abhisit.

Do I understand this right as in,we want to talk but only if the outcome will be what we tell you upfront.

[Cayenne]

Was that AFP reporter even covering the same talks? From what I see, the only reasonable talk from the red shirts came from Veera. Jatuporn went on sprouting the same nonsense over and over again and even had to look at his phone to get a SMS ordering him to give 2 weeks notice to the government (any guess who sent that SMS ). Dr. Weng was talking so many abstract concepts and blantant lies about BBC and CNN that it's hard to give him any credibility at all.

My suggestion, let Veera continue the talks. Jatuporn and Dr. Weng should remain outside to entertain the red shirts.

[johndpoole]

IT IS A POKER GAME. Neither side can lose face to their followers and certainly the current leader of Thailand should NEVER be put in a place like this to show weakness. Any weakness in terms of his showing he is willing to fold on certain issues IF the other side agree to something in return needs to be done behind closed doors.

This is not like two different political sides discussing things it is much more like two different nations discussing things such as a truce. When is this ever televised?

A good lawyer never asks a question he doesn't know the answer to. He does this by getting the answers before hand or outside earshot of the jury. NOTHING can come of televised talks on this matter ... at least in a way of any deal. As in Washington and everywhere else in the world, deals are made behind closed doors and then after made public and both sides give their take. Yes, people get to hear the arguments first but how long have the Thai people heard the current argument already?????????

Make a deal and get Thailand back on track. That is what is good for the thai people. For us Farang, lets hope they keep airing this crap and the protests continue to weaken the bhat.

The Reds are not so stupid to believe they will really hold votes now or dissolve the government in anyway now. Yet, this is all they want to talk about. So, their only goal can be to prevent Thailand from moving in any good direction under this government before the elections. What they don't get it is becoming very clear to the Thai people they are causing the problems now and this perception will only continue the louder they get and the closer to elections we get. The current PM is a charmer and well spoken and sorry but the other side looked like a motley crew and there is no possible way they are going to win the hearts of the people with televised shows like this if they continue to demand what everyone knows ain't going to happen now.

[Indo-Siam]

I would be curious to know whether the negotiations were broadcast and viewed live by the Red Shirt mob down at the bridge. My Thai is not good enough to be able to judge personally the quality of the performances at the negotiations - but talking to some low-level Thai friends, they seemed to think that PM Abhisit did a particularly good job - and felt that if the Red Shirt leaders allowed their followers to see the broadcast, it may have been the first time that most of the protesters had heard an intelligent presentation of the government's position - instead of one-sided propaganda by their own demagogues.

It would be interesting if this meeting ended up working against the Red Shirt leaders - by allowing their supporters to hear the position of the sitting government presented in a reasonable way.

Abhisit is trying to run the country - right now - for all the Thai people. The Red Shirt leaders are simply directing a relatively small, one-sided mob, trying to tear down a functioning government. It is probably much easier to tear something down, than to create something better in its place.

[RegularReader]

For Thailand , such a debate was a first.

In itself it might not achieve much, but you have to start somewhere.

People should tell Dr. Weng he is not at university giving a lecture - if he was he could have used Power Points to put us to sleep instead of his rather serious and boring delivery.

It's also a pity that it would seem there might have been a phone call to/from Dubai, because it eneded rather quickely when they came back. Maybe it was the sms sent ot someone's phone during the last part of the deabate ??

It would be a pity. But then again this is a long term matter and such anal rententive control from so far away may be shown up for what it is if these open forums continue.

Then we might get some real reforms to suit 65 million Thais - not just one man

[johndpoole]

This is not like two different political sides discussing things it is much more like two different nations discussing things such as a truce. When is this ever televised?

When it is rhetoric, stall tactics or other motivations are involved but certainly not one of achieving common ground or an agreement.

[lannarebirth]

IT IS A POKER GAME. Neither side can lose face to their followers and certainly the current leader of Thailand should NEVER be put in a place like this to show weakness. Any weakness in terms of his showing he is willing to fold on certain issues IF the other side agree to something in return needs to be done behind closed doors.

He's not losing face, and while I don't cotton to the idea of "face" at all, in the eyes of Thai people he is gaining it daily. He's not going to be folding on anything he doesn't plan on doing anyway. He's going to use the platform to expose the motivations of the opposing side and tell everyone who may not have known already just how much he's been doing on their behalf. The Reds have offered him a free campaigning platform into the heart of Red country, which he never would have had otherwise. Doh!

This is not like two different political sides discussing things it is much more like two different nations discussing things such as a truce. When is this ever televised?

A good lawyer never asks a question he doesn't know the answer to. He does this by getting the answers before hand or outside earshot of the jury. NOTHING can come of televised talks on this matter ... at least in a way of any deal. As in Washington and everywhere else in the world, deals are made behind closed doors and then after made public and both sides give their take. Yes, people get to hear the arguments first but how long have the Thai people heard the current argument already?????????

Make a deal and get Thailand back on track. That is what is good for the thai people. For us Farang, lets hope they keep airing this crap and the protests continue to weaken the bhat.

The Reds are not so stupid to believe they will really hold votes now or dissolve the government in anyway now. Yet, this is all they want to talk about. So, their only goal can be to prevent Thailand from moving in any good direction under this government before the elections. What they don't get it is becoming very clear to the Thai people they are causing the problems now and this perception will only continue the louder they get and the closer to elections we get. The current PM is a charmer and well spoken and sorry but the other side looked like a motley crew and there is no possible way they are going to win the hearts of the people with televised shows like this if they continue to demand what everyone knows ain't going to happen now.

Right.

Edited March 28, 2010 by lannarebirth

[lannarebirth]

I would be curious to know whether the negotiations were broadcast and viewed live by the Red Shirt mob down at the bridge.

It can't be posted on Thai Visa for some reason, but if you go to the Bangkok Post's webpage there is a story titled "Red Shirts listen to talk".

[ilyelol]

so those 4 pages of updates are like

"i want cookies"

"no chips are better"

"COOKIE MOrE TASTFULL"

"but chips are nice"

kids arguing with no actual depth

[basjke]

This is not like two different political sides discussing things it is much more like two different nations discussing things such as a truce. When is this ever televised?

When it is rhetoric, stall tactics or other motivations are involved but certainly not one of achieving common ground or an agreement.

Live broadcasting the whole meeting was the best decision the PM could make.This way the red supporters could hear by themself what this is all about and not just get the onesided info they get from their paid leaders.

That's also why I posted in another topic earlier that I had doubts the reds would accept the negotations be broadcasted.

[Publicus]

The nationally televised meeting was principally showmanship.

The three Reds present wanted legitimacy, speaking nationwide to the PM, and wanted to present their demands to all of the population to hear - but above all to be seen speaking from the high position of one on one with the PM.

Abhisit wanted to show he is a listener, that he will meet with Thais in opposition because they are Thais who deserve respect and consideration, not bogus eradication campaigns such as Thaksin's "War on Drugs" or lawsuit responses, but more than that to show that his interest as PM is for the entire nation domestically and globally.

The Reds took part because it justified their continuing Bangkok street campaigns and to themselves provides a basis to continue their public disorder - the Reds' leaders and hard core get encouragement to revive their cause and next time to bring more peasants to Bangkok. However, Abhisit is bending over backwards to try to do what Obama promised but can't ever do (another discussion), to show he can bring all sides to the negotiating table to talk and to determine if any resolution is possible. Abhisit appears reasonable, fair and open while clear minded.

Indeed, Abhisit pointedly inquired when a PM has met with opponents, much less in a national public forum to debate, discuss, hash out views and to try to reason together. This is like the first nationally televised debate between two candidates for president in 1960, Kennedy-Nixon. In short, Abhisit presented himself as the leader of all Thais, while the Redshirt leaders presented themselves as, well, leaders of the Redshirts. And who pays the Redshirts? Who do the Redshirt leaders look out for most besides themselves? The question answers itselfsimply by looking towards Dubai (from where Thaksin's phone calls are monitored).

Edit to add: Pres Obama has had an unprecedented nationally televised meeting with Republicans only at their Party conferences and with Republians and Democrats in the White House. Obama has now had a rush of successes domestic and foreign after long and tuff slogging in the mud. People subsequently agree Obama's successful formula is persistence and perseverance both in his long campaign to win his Party's nomination and then to win the presidency. To paraphrase, meet the enemy so you can see the whites of their eyes.

Edited March 28, 2010 by Publicus

[jdinasia]

I would be curious to know whether the negotiations were broadcast and viewed live by the Red Shirt mob down at the bridge.

It can't be posted on Thai Visa for some reason, but if you go to the Bangkok Post's webpage there is a story titled "Red Shirts listen to talk".

I watched People TV during part of the discussions, most of the crowd looked bored when Abhisit was speaking and waved their toys when Jatuporn or Veera spoke. On the bright side, there did appear to be some people in the crowd that were a bit moved or disturbed by what Abhisit said.

[Insight]

According to one source on Twitter the reds are firing up the rhetoric again, stating that negotiations are over and tomorrow they're simply going along to see what Abhisit's decision is.

I think Abhisit's popularity has just skyrocketed again however.

[NewInvestor]

It is probably much easier to tear something down, than to create something better in its place.

Right. What is needed in this situation is alternative leaders to create and promote better alternative agendas.

Thaksin is obviously willing to have a "class war" if that's what it takes get regain power. To tear down and trample over so much of Thailand and scare away foreigners' investments if that's what it takes.

80,000 protesters are still a tiny fraction of 1% of the 66,000,000 Thai people. Regardless of what fraction of that fraction are paid to show up to bolster the numbers, it is still a militant minority.

Can anybody imagine the upheaval that would happen if Thaksin came back to power in Thailand? These protests would be childs play in comparison.

The best way out may be an alternative organization with leaders to promote solutions including copied solutions without Thaksin and the blood bath, but with the best interests of Thailand and its people in mind, not just themselves and their own special interests and cult.

Even if Thaksin got all his 76 billion baht back, that's still just 1100 baht per Thai person, not enough to significantly solve problems, but definitely enough to buy off key people of privilege. However, how much of Thaksin's own money has he actually spent on helping Thai people, versus spending the government and taxpayers money?

There is a lot of room for alternative leadership. While money helps a lot in organizing a political party and movement, it's not everything. Are people so stupid as to vote for a person or party which will just continue deep conflict instead of a compromise candidate?

Well, this is a Thai problem for the Thais ... but I have never before seen this society so split as now, and it seems to come down to one man and his cult.

[way2muchcoffee]

According to one source on Twitter the reds are firing up the rhetoric again, stating that negotiations are over and tomorrow they're simply going along to see what Abhisit's decision is.

I think Abhisit's popularity has just skyrocketed again however.

Yes. I read the comments from Veera and Jatuporn on the red stage this evening. They were dismissive of the talks. Thaksin impugned Abhisit and indicated that he wasn't sincere in holding negotiating with redshirts. I suspect that amongst the redshirts Abhisit scored zero points, but I also suspect most of them are already convinced and didn't really bother to listen.

I also believe that Abhisit struck a chord with the undecided. He was calling for compromise and a middle way. This is very Thai and it should resonate well with many people. I could be totally wrong here, but I would call this a victory for Abhisit, especially if the redshirts are as dismissive tomorrow as they were on the red stage tonight.

[upinthesky]

Stop beating around the bush I think they are afraid to confront with the truth either side. Get straight to the point and stop wasting time. I encourage dissolution. This government is not beneficial to the social economy.

[jdinasia]

Stop beating around the bush I think they are afraid to confront with the truth either side. Get straight to the point and stop wasting time. I encourage dissolution. This government is not beneficial to the social economy.

huh?

[anotherpeter]

Stop beating around the bush I think they are afraid to confront with the truth either side. Get straight to the point and stop wasting time. I encourage dissolution. This government is not beneficial to the social economy.

How is the other option beneficial?

[Publicus]

It is probably much easier to tear something down, than to create something better in its place.

Right. What is needed in this situation is alternative leaders to create and promote better alternative agendas.

Thaksin is obviously willing to have a "class war" if that's what it takes get regain power. To tear down and trample over so much of Thailand and scare away foreigners' investments if that's what it takes.

80,000 protesters are still a tiny fraction of 1% of the 66,000,000 Thai people. Regardless of what fraction of that fraction are paid to show up to bolster the numbers, it is still a militant minority.

Can anybody imagine the upheaval that would happen if Thaksin came back to power in Thailand? These protests would be childs play in comparison.

The best way out may be an alternative organization with leaders to promote solutions including copied solutions without Thaksin and the blood bath, but with the best interests of Thailand and its people in mind, not just themselves and their own special interests and cult.

Even if Thaksin got all his 76 billion baht back, that's still just 1100 baht per Thai person, not enough to significantly solve problems, but definitely enough to buy off key people of privilege. However, how much of Thaksin's own money has he actually spent on helping Thai people, versus spending the government and taxpayers money?

There is a lot of room for alternative leadership. While money helps a lot in organizing a political party and movement, it's not everything. Are people so stupid as to vote for a person or party which will just continue deep conflict instead of a compromise candidate?

Well, this is a Thai problem for the Thais ... but I have never before seen this society so split as now, and it seems to come down to one man and his cult.

It's been pointed out and lamented many times here that Thai culture, society and civilization is incapable of producing a transormative leader such as a Suu Kyi or a Mandella or even a Walesa - don't look for or expect a Havel or a Dubchek. Thailand has only more Djukanovics in the pipeline. No one wants to see Abhsit forever, but the for the time being and the short term future, he's clearly the best on offer.

Witness that Thaksin himself sees a "bright shinning light" in Thailand's future after the inevitable and unspeakable occurs.

[yoshiwara]

Stop beating around the bush I think they are afraid to confront with the truth either side. Get straight to the point and stop wasting time. I encourage dissolution. This government is not beneficial to the social economy.

The problem for most Thaksin apologists is that if you ask them what economic policies advocated by the reds must be implemented now rather than the scheduled election dates, answer none will come.

Ditto if you ask them which economic policies currently being implemented by the current government are specifically opposed by the reds, again answer none will come.

Only the return of Thaksin is the objective.

Looking at the avatar of the above contributor, he probably thinks that Thaksin is Brad Pitt.

No beating around that bush.

[NewInvestor]

It is probably much easier to tear something down, than to create something better in its place.

Right. What is needed in this situation is alternative leaders to create and promote better alternative agendas.

It's been pointed out and lamented many times here that Thai culture, society and civilization is incapable of producing a transformative leader such as a Suu Kyi or a Mandella or even a Walesa - don't look for or expect a Havel or a Dubchek. Thailand has only more Djukanovics in the pipeline. No one wants to see Abhsit forever, but the for the time being and the short term future, he's clearly the best on offer.

Witness that Thaksin himself sees a "bright shinning light" in Thailand's future after the inevitable and unspeakable occurs.

Do you wonder how much or how little the discussion on this forum overlaps with the discussion in the Thai media? Any good translated sites? Any good Thai to English online translators for newspapers and TV media?

Long live the internet, The Nation, George and his forum, and everybody participating here. Let's hope that people in The Nation and elsewhere, as well as potential alternative Thai leaders, read this forum.

[TheOldWolf]

Stop beating around the bush I think they are afraid to confront with the truth either side. Get straight to the point and stop wasting time. I encourage dissolution. This government is not beneficial to the social economy.

The problem for most Thaksin apologists is that if you ask them what economic policies advocated by the reds must be implemented now rather than the scheduled election dates, answer none will come.

Ditto if you ask them which economic policies currently being implemented by the current government are specifically opposed by the reds, again answer none will come.

Only the return of Thaksin is the objective.

Looking at the avatar of the above contributor, he probably thinks that Thaksin is Brad Pitt.

No beating around that bush.

You are right! I have not seen any policies from the reds, but bringing Thaksin back as PM

[lannarebirth]

To sum up Thaksin's phone-in. It's ambiguous at best. Attacking Abhisit fiercely, asking reds to "trust" rally leaders.

4 minutes ago via TweetDeck "Please trust the rally leaders. Don't worry about me," Thaksin said.

24 minutes ago via TweetDeck "I don't want to return to Thailand if it remains an ammat society. They will just take me away and kill me," Thaksin said.

25 minutes ago via TweetDeck RT @GlobalMouthful: the reds would come out on top if they told Thaksin to keep out of negotiations and that it is not about him anymore

27 minutes ago via TweetDeck "Brothers, keep fighting. Don't give up. Don't be swayed," Thaksin said.

37 minutes ago via TweetDeck Thaksin said Abhisit went into the talks never intending to dissolve House.

39 minutes ago via TweetDeck Thaksin looks upbeat.

40 minutes ago via TweetDeck "Good thing is the red shirts had the opportunity to tell the whole country what they think," Thaksin said.

41 minutes ago via TweetDeck Thaksin said he watched the negotiation on his computer.

42 minutes ago via TweetDeck Thaksin phoning in, saying he's "overseas". Didn't say where.

44 minutes ago via TweetDeck

[Publicus]

Stop beating around the bush I think they are afraid to confront with the truth either side. Get straight to the point and stop wasting time. I encourage dissolution. This government is not beneficial to the social economy.

The problem for most Thaksin apologists is that if you ask them what economic policies advocated by the reds must be implemented now rather than the scheduled election dates, answer none will come.

Ditto if you ask them which economic policies currently being implemented by the current government are specifically opposed by the reds, again answer none will come.

Only the return of Thaksin is the objective.

Looking at the avatar of the above contributor, he probably thinks that Thaksin is Brad Pitt.

No beating around that bush.

Either Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp, or perhaps Austin Kutchner . At least he doesn't think Thaksin is Angela Jolie! Not to mention Lady Gaga.

[Publicus]

It is probably much easier to tear something down, than to create something better in its place.

Right. What is needed in this situation is alternative leaders to create and promote better alternative agendas.

It's been pointed out and lamented many times here that Thai culture, society and civilization is incapable of producing a transformative leader such as a Suu Kyi or a Mandella or even a Walesa - don't look for or expect a Havel or a Dubchek. Thailand has only more Djukanovics in the pipeline. No one wants to see Abhsit forever, but the for the time being and the short term future, he's clearly the best on offer.

Witness that Thaksin himself sees a "bright shinning light" in Thailand's future after the inevitable and unspeakable occurs.

Do you wonder how much or how little the discussion on this forum overlaps with the discussion in the Thai media? Any good translated sites? Any good Thai to English online translators for newspapers and TV media?

Long live the internet, The Nation, George and his forum, and everybody participating here. Let's hope that people in The Nation and elsewhere, as well as potential alternative Thai leaders, read this forum.

They read Thaivisa religiously, and daily, for sure.