Thailand's Political Landmark Talks End Without Resolution

[jdinasia]

Actually a very informative report. Thanks for the link.

Of course, it took me a while to find it, but sure enough, they do mention Yongyuth case. A bit different then the storey you told.

The mobilization of a large number of police officers and Special Branch officers to supplement the ECT's own investigators undoubtedly increased the authorities' overall capacity to investigate election violations. Given the widespread nature of vote buying, it is natural that the ECT would wish to make use of all the resources at its disposal. This strategy did produce some positive results, shown most clearly in the investigation of Yongyuth Tiyapairat, a PPP candidate who successfully contested for a proportional representation seat in zone 1 in northern Thailand and was subsequently made Speaker of the House of Representatives. Using a hidden camera, Yongyuth was filmed bribing local government officials from the town of Chiang Rai to campaign on his behalf. The strength of such evidence – collected by the Special Branch police – lead to the ECT giving Yongyuth a 'red card'.

I am not familar with the Chaing Rai politics, can you tell me for how many years a Tiyapairat has been the MP and have they ever lost an election?

TH

FILMED BRIBING ..... yeppers pretty open and shut case. It wasn't the only case against the PPP but it was the easiest to prove.

Next week on Caught On Tape : Thaksin with Arisman and SaeDaeng -- after those 2 made their threats! --- oh wait that one has already been done hasn't it?

[yoshiwara]

IMO the reds, their leaders, and some TV contributors have a very simplistic view of democracy. They have got to "1 person, 1 vote" and "an elected government" and failed to read fine print.

Democracy depends on a separated set of powers; the legislature, the judiciary, enforcement (police and military) and in the US model, the executive. For democracy to work, it is essential that they remain free and independent, and to act as a set of checks and balances on the power and actions of the others. When one branch is able to suborn one or more of the others, the result is usually a dictatorship, and this is exactly where Thailand was headed under Thaksin.

Thaksin was actively suborning the judiciary, and attempting to promote relatively junior cronies to head the military and police, and at the same time passing legislation to enrich himself in both power and money. The military took the necessary action, and did it well; swift, bloodless and returning to civilian rule in a reasonable time frame.

In the talks, the reds have blamed most of their problems on the judiciary disbanding a political party for illegal election actions. Well, that is what they are there for, and good on them! That's how democracy works, and if that's what the reds want, they got it. They say that they want constitutional changes, and my guess is dis-empowering the Electoral Court so that Thaksin can use his wealth to buy votes, and that dog ain't going to hunt.

I will shout it for the hard of hearing. THIS IS HOW DEMOCRACY IS SUPPOSED TO WORK.

The reason why Thaksin has instructed the reds not to negotiate re constitution checks is critical to his strategy.

It is about the ground rules.

His objective is to impose a dictatorship on the key state institutions safe for his personalised mafia.

The current government, knowing Thaksin's plans have offered to negotiate constitutional checks so that the judiciary and the military remain independent from Thaksin's corruption.

Last time Thaksin got to the point where he was trying to put his cronies into the leading positions of the army.

Thaksin has got form

One can argue about whether such checks and balances can work effectively, but Thaksin is taking no chances.

He wants a clear road to his mafia control of the State.

No ifs and no buts.

[wayfarer108]

Total executive control without the checks and balances of the legislature and judiciary was clearly Thaksin's goal while he was in office. He is a fool if he thinks he can follow that tact from abroad, using the Red masses as a shield. But if he succeeds, the Reds' rank and file will one day appreciate that they had far more rights under the Democrats than under Thaksin's puppet parties.

[steveromagnino]

For an informed voter, it is tough to sell the idea that a vote for PT is a vote for constitutional change if all participants are exposed to the idea of decoupling the constitutional reform and a new election; if this linkage breaks, then Thaksin will have great difficulty in getting the changes he needs to get amnesty; his case may be the most important to him, but for the scope of constitutional reform, I think he ranks relatively low even for some of the red shirters - we can expect him to poo-hoo this entire discussion because for pro democracy red shirters; they just got most of what they wanted; now it is just timeframe; for Thaksin this is exactly the result that he doesn't want.

There is zero sense in making the constitution a political policy. It MUST be an ethical moral and non party line decision, developed by not just politicians but others also. To split apart election and constitution reform is obvious, obviously there are only a few stakeholders that wish to grant Thaksin amnesty within any new constitution, and therefore, that is why Thaksin cannot allow the decision to go down this logical direction. But Abhisit has put it on the table; his coalition partners support it; it is reasonable to now consider a 6 month process; 3 months for a new constitution roadmap; 6 months to an election.

This is the nub of the discussion at the moment.

And agreement on which constitution will apply for an election result to suitably punish cheats.

2 months is just impossible. The only reason to choose 2 months would be to catch the momentum of some heavily funded political movement that is no longer increasing in size, but trying to keep momentum or propose as an offer no one will accept. hmmmm...refer above for the Thaksin approach (but of course Thaksin has nothing to do with any of this according to Jatuporn yesterday).

The aim of PT is clear. Get into power, and unilaterally change the constitution...exactly the same way TRT signed the FTAs.,...just go yourself no need to discuss with anyone who might disagree.

Obviously, that is simply impossible now in today's environment.

Hence...it needs to be a joint discussion for the good of the country.....but PT/red shirts as a minority (both in terms of numbers at the rally and as far as election results go) seem to think they know best what the majority want. more than a referendum or non partisan discussion that they also pulled out of last year.

So the referendum is flawed. Run it again now.

So the constitution is flawed. Get together and discuss now.

Neither seems to be part of the PT agenda right now.

Edited March 29, 2010 by steveromagnino

[RickBradford]

The Western media, politicians and investors are bound to take a dim view of a Thai PM forced to haggle on live TV with the leaders of a public mob over a few months here or there before dissolving Parliament.

I'm actually feeling more respect for and understanding of the Thai way of doing things through seeing this, but I don't think hard-nosed US and European investors will agree.

Edited March 29, 2010 by RickBradford

[hammered]

The Western media, politicians and investors are bound to take a dim view of a Thai PM forced to haggle on live TV with the leaders of a public mob over a few months here or there before dissolving Parliament.

I'm actually feeling more respect for and understanding of the Thai way of doing things through seeing this, but I don't think hard-nosed US and European investors will agree.

Investors just want stability. If this brings it they wont mind

[jdinasia]

The Western media, politicians and investors are bound to take a dim view of a Thai PM forced to haggle on live TV with the leaders of a public mob over a few months here or there before dissolving Parliament.

I'm actually getting more respect and understanding of the Thai way of doing things through seeing this, but I don't think hard-nosed US and European investors will agree.

I disagree 100%, Thailand in the face of deep political divisions is still managing to run fairly smoothly. Add cheap labor to that and it is an investor's dream --- well maybe not a dream but certainly not a nightmare

[fullcave]

Yes and the potty break as well.. Maybe they were getting just a little too friendly for the control freak.

Jatuporn went on sprouting the same nonsense over and over again and even had to look at his phone to get a SMS ordering him to give 2 weeks notice to the government (any guess who sent that SMS ).

[bacchanal]

Yongyuth, PPP deputy leader, got a red card from the Supreme Court as recommended by the EC. his sister got only a yellow card.

yellow card means she wasn't out but could try her luck again in a by-election. and that was what she did in August 2008.

interesting was it it to see the results in that by election, how would the turn out be without any evil influence.

La-ong got a decisive victory with 170,184 votes, while the second place Democrat MP Kitipong Namwong got only 19,480 votes.

Classic TRT/PPP blundering.

Committing electoral fraud even in circumstances when they didn't need to shows them to be the pinnacle of arrogance... and stupidity.

It got both of these stupid parties and their stupid party leaders banned.

By the way, any progress in Yongyuth's charges for attempting to murder an elderly couple with hundreds of rounds of gunshots while he was in charge of a Thaksin Drug War raid?

[mazeltov]

Actually a very informative report. Thanks for the link.

Of course, it took me a while to find it, but sure enough, they do mention Yongyuth case. A bit different then the storey you told.

...Using a hidden camera, Yongyuth was filmed bribing local government officials from the town of Chiang Rai to campaign on his behalf. The strength of such evidence – collected by the Special Branch police – lead to the ECT giving Yongyuth a ‘red card’. ...

I am not familar with the Chaing Rai politics, can you tell me for how many years a Tiyapairat has been the MP and have they ever lost an election?

TH

at an other topic you wrote that you miss my reply, so here it comes:

i was impressed that you read the whole paper in 10 minutes and didn't found any other interesting details worth to mention. (i was also impressed that only 3 other board member did download it)

it was published in march 2008, so it didn't mentioned later development like the by-elections for his yellow carded sister. i didn't found the 100k of baht you have been talking about.

did the quote you had cherry picked from the report contradict what i have said before?

what said the report about balanced and even-handed investigation of all sides and the neutrality of the investigation/investigators? did you read that?

don't look only superficial at the subject, the surface and then assume or make speculations about what the details could be. look at the details for yourself and than make your own conclusion. if you know the tiny bits you will probably better understand why some people argue otherwise.

anyway, what is actually your point? taken me in responsibility for how precise and accurate the report is or how many mistakes are inside? the video evidence was controversial and disputed and indeed the EC based their decision on other evidence.

"EC member Sumeth Upanisakorn said the EC had carefully looked into the sub-panel's investigation report before deciding to hand Yongyuth the red card. He said he did not attach much weight to the VCD used as evidence to back up the vote-buying allegations against Yongyuth. Witness accounts were more important, he said. "EC rules to red-card Yongyuth

so why you are pushing me to answer you, while yourself you ignored my question 'where you get the bags filled with 100k's of baht from?' and ignored my point 'to have a look at the outcome of the by-election at the constituency , exactly there where the fraud, the so-called vote buying, was committed.

do you want exchange opinions, share your knowledge on the subject with others in a mature debate or are you up for bickering and strawman attacks?

[thaihome]

Actually a very informative report. Thanks for the link.

Of course, it took me a while to find it, but sure enough, they do mention Yongyuth case. A bit different then the storey you told.

...Using a hidden camera, Yongyuth was filmed bribing local government officials from the town of Chiang Rai to campaign on his behalf. The strength of such evidence – collected by the Special Branch police – lead to the ECT giving Yongyuth a ‘red card’. ...

I am not familar with the Chaing Rai politics, can you tell me for how many years a Tiyapairat has been the MP and have they ever lost an election?

TH

at an other topic you wrote that you miss my reply, so here it comes:

i was impressed that you read the whole paper in 10 minutes and didn't found any other interesting details worth to mention. (i was also impressed that only 3 other board member did download it)

it was published in march 2008, so it didn't mentioned later development like the by-elections for his yellow carded sister. i didn't found the 100k of baht you have been talking about.

did the quote you had cherry picked from the report contradict what i have said before?

what said the report about balanced and even-handed investigation of all sides and the neutrality of the investigation/investigators? did you read that?

don't look only superficial at the subject, the surface and then assume or make speculations about what the details could be. look at the details for yourself and than make your own conclusion. if you know the tiny bits you will probably better understand why some people argue otherwise.

anyway, what is actually your point? taken me in responsibility for how precise and accurate the report is or how many mistakes are inside? the video evidence was controversial and disputed and indeed the EC based their decision on other evidence.

"EC member Sumeth Upanisakorn said the EC had carefully looked into the sub-panel's investigation report before deciding to hand Yongyuth the red card. He said he did not attach much weight to the VCD used as evidence to back up the vote-buying allegations against Yongyuth. Witness accounts were more important, he said. "EC rules to red-card Yongyuth

so why you are pushing me to answer you, while yourself you ignored my question 'where you get the bags filled with 100k's of baht from?' and ignored my point 'to have a look at the outcome of the by-election at the constituency , exactly there where the fraud, the so-called vote buying, was committed.

do you want exchange opinions, share your knowledge on the subject with others in a mature debate or are you up for bickering and strawman attacks?

I was more curious about the Tiyapairat family and their influence in that area. Do you know how many have been MP's and have they ever lost an election?

I ask because the area I am familiar with is dominated by one family and at least 2 of them are always MP's and have been for many years. Someone always runs against them, but few vote against the family. They don't even have to buy the votes, its a given. They have been members of several parties and now have their own.

TH