Thailand's Army, The Silent Political Actor

[craigt3365]

You know, there's one thing that really annoys me, and that is when these so-called 'elite' people say that the common people have no education and therefore should not be entitled to vote.

Sounds similar to complaints I have heard in other countries!

[ThailandLovr]

The army has too much power in Thailand. That is clear.

But can Abhisit or any politician do much about that now?

If Thaksin was back here (and when he was here) he wouldn't change anything, he would just put his people in positions in the army. He would have as much luck of reducing the army's power as any other politician. He wouldn't actually want to reduce it. He would just use it.

It's not worth trying to reduce the power of the army overnight. It's a long term effort. Build the democracy. Get rid of the corruption. The army will slowly change to be about protecting the civilians rather than ruling them.

Did you mean to say "it's not possible to reduce the power of the army overnight"? Either way, it is absolutely a long term effort. Building the democracy, eliminating the corruption, helping the plight of the poor...light-years away. Such a shame Thailand has so far to go, we'll all be in the here-after before that happens.

[elcent]

to say it takes a long time for change is just a cheap excuse. Everything can be implemented when it is good. This is what I liked with Thaksin, when he acted he acted fast and without delay. I'm not talking about his character issues here. I just mentioned that because things are possible in a timely manner if they (gov) really want too.

[ThailandLovr]

to say it takes a long time for change is just a cheap excuse. Everything can be implemented when it is good. This is what I liked with Thaksin, when he acted he acted fast and without delay. I'm not talking about his character issues here. I just mentioned that because things are possible in a timely manner if they (gov) really want too.

I nominate elcent for the "Optimist of the Year" award. Cheers.

[mark45y]

When America was an English colony in most states only white, European ,male, protestants who owned more than 50 acres of land could vote. After the revolution it was changed.

There are currently 11 generals on active duty in the US Army.

US Generals are nominated by the President and confirmed by the senate.

Anyone who doesn’t know that Thailand has been a military dictatorship since 1932 is naïve.

Why do you think the Thai baht and the market in general has been so stable throughout the red shirt deal?

All the discussions and news reporting is a bit silly.

Nothing is happening and nothing is changing. It is a bit of a non event. Of course there are people who like to watch a cat play with a mouse.

Education?

Currently in Thailand there are educated people under the control of the military dictatorship and uneducated people under the control of the military dictatorship. What possible difference does education make?

Cuba as a whole is very well educated. You think the Chinese who fought for Mao were educated?

Hitler was elected (kind of). You think the Germans who voted for him were uneducated?

[bellagrego]

But Chambers said the military was likely to keep up the pressure in private rather than stage another coup, allowing the country to maintain a "veneer of electoral democracy".

what does it mean? Throwing grenades to keep their hands in the cookie jar?

Why do you think the military is the guilty party in the recent bombings? Some look elsewhere.

The yellow menace, the olive jackboots, and the money-green elitist are the phony "grenade throwers". You should see the real damage inflicted with a M79 Grenade launcher, trust me, it doesn't look anything remotely similar to the mini damages shown on the TV as facts of evidence. Those little explosions look like they came from a cherry bomb or big fire cracker instead.

[MGiacomoCM]

The military always has been the biggest enemy to Thai democracy (if you can call it that). As a free-thinking European and thus an avid supporter of democracy in general I just can't support the current Thai government. But thinking about the alternative makes me equally angry.

The Reds just can't (or want to) function without their exiled leader. As long as no politician out of their ranks steps up and fianlly shatters his supporters belief that victory goes hand in hand with Thaksin's return, they are endangering even their really honorable goal of calling elections. Sadly this battle has become more about Thaksin's billions than what it actually should be about: Democracy, holding an open and free election with the outcome of having a government run this country that was actually voted for by the majority of Thai people.

Should people once again choose Thaksin's allies (even if they have now been told for years how uber-evil he is), it will be because they feel the good coming from his government still outweighed its bad aspects. If the Yellow's win, then everyone complaining now (including me) should let them finally do their job in peace.

I just dearly hope that the military is kept out of it. What have they ever done for this country? Why does their moral authority to decide above people's heads what they have to be forcefully protected from remain nearly unquestioned? Can't remember Thailand ever fighting a war in recent times and needing it's soldiers (much less it's high ranking generals club) to defend itself. And still: Wearing a shiny uniform with lots of medals and golden stars, all awarded without ever having to prove oneself in real wartime combat, seems to be give you legitimization to oust elected officials as you please.

Why is this 'accepted' by the greater part of Thai society? Why do not more people protest? Is it because they are happy with the situation? I doubt it. Anyone who stays here for a few years knows that most political decisions hardly ever reach or benfit a large part of the population. Someone who has all hands full working to provide for his family doesn't care who's in charge in matters that don't even concern him. Adding to that is the fact that for Thai politicians being part of a government traditionally means one thing: Time to fill up their own pockets. Nowadays you have Abhisit talking about how corrupt Thaksin was, while a few years back Thaksin promised to fight the rampant corruption of incompetent governments before him. When Thai politicians talk about ending corruption or accusing an opponent of favoritism it's usually with the goal of putting themself at the receiving end of it.

Many Thai are simply not interested in politics or see it merely as a kind of get-rich-quick scheme. They don't go demonstrating because some theoretical ideal of democracy that they never believed in in the first place is being violated. Only when things really start to affect their everyday lives they start to care (like the financial crisis in the end of the 90s or Thaksin's policies that pumped money into the rural areas).

And then there's Thai mentality. "Don't complain openly, don't make a scene, so no one looses face and just accept it like it is." Furthermore it's common knowledge that further political instability would have an effect on the country's economy far worse than either sides' policies ever could (Tourist related businesses like the one my wife runs still continue to pay the bill for the Yellow's airport takeover).

So all in all it should come as no surprise that only few people protest openly on the street.

When Thaksin was PM it wasn't exactly millions of people either that leaned up, it was in fact very few high powered individuals who feared not to get a part of the cake anymore once all he needed to stay in power was the votes of the poor). It is and always has been an elite minority, that once it felt it was losing out with its political opponent in power, started to pull the strings. For the common man it doesn't really make a difference, if his vote is bought by a corrupt politician or he is smoothtalked into allowing it to be rendered worthless for good.

Oh, my... I apologize for the long post. But what's done is done.

[elcent]

Hitler was elected (kind of). You think the Germans who voted for him were uneducated?

Hitler never had a majority vote. He seized power when his party had a considerable amount of members.

[elcent]

It is and always has been an elite minority, that once it felt it was losing out with its political opponent in power, started to pull the strings. For the common man it doesn't really make a difference, if his vote is bought by a corrupt politician or he is smoothtalked into allowing it to be rendered worthless for good.

Oh, my... I apologize for the long post. But what's done is done.

Thaksin started up with the support of Sondhi and Chamlong and was well received as long as he danced to their tunes.

After things changed, Thaksin is quite a fast learner, they all turned against him. He also had the best team working which are not coming forward now due to Thaksin's character issues, that is.

[whiterussian]

Democracy can only occur once the military reports to the civilian government and only when it is the civilian government that dictates the military budget.

Right on...otherwise, we are just like Burma....

Or America...

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/6277/20100...ence-budget.htm

WASHINGTON - President Barack Obama asked Congress to approve a record $708 billion in defence spending for fiscal 2011, but vowed to continue his drive to eliminate unnecessary, wasteful weapons programs.

The budget calls for a 3.4 percent increase in the Pentagon's base budget to $549 billion, plus $159 billion to fund U.S. military missions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Total Outlays (Federal Funds): $2,650 billion

MILITARY: 54% and $1,449 billion

NON-MILITARY: 46% and $1,210 billion

Thai military puts up spending defense Feb 26, 2010

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LB26Ae01.html

After a steady nine-year decline in the military's budget following the 1997 financial crisis, defense spending quadrupled in the months immediately following the September 2006 coup, as the military embarked on a modernization campaign.

The minister proposed then to pay for the procurements by either increasing military spending from 1.58% of gross domestic product to 1.8% over a first five-year period and rising to 2% until the end of the decade, or through an increased budget allocation for the military of $3.5 billion in the first five years and $6 billion over the second.

In July 2008, a request was made for a 17.8% budget increase for 2009, a rise of $755 million over the 2008 fiscal year budget. By 2009, defense budgets had doubled from $2.4 billion in fiscal 2006 to $4.8 billion in fiscal 2009.

...

Much of Thailand's equipment dates to the Cold War era and some of it, like the Cavalry's M41 tanks seen in footage of the 2006 coup, dates back to the 1950s

Edited April 1, 2010 by whiterussian

[mark45y]

Hitler was elected (kind of). You think the Germans who voted for him were uneducated?

Hitler never had a majority vote. He seized power when his party had a considerable amount of members.

When Hindenburg died on August 2, 1934, Hitler's cabinet passed a law transferring the power of the presidency to Hitler as both Chancellor and Führer (Leader). In mid-August a plebiscite was held, and 85% of the people voted to sustain Hitler as supreme leader of the state, people and military. Hitler could no longer be legally challenged. But he hadn't been elected per se: he'd been appointed Chancellor, then usurped the power of the presidency, and was approved in place by that 85% vote, but the fact remains (and the German voters living at the time must bear the responsibility) 85% voted to follow Hitler to their eventual Götterdamerung.

[blaze]

I just dearly hope that the military is kept out of it.

"kept' implies that the normal and even current position of the army is 'out of it'. Do you believe that it is? Ever has been?

This is the second editorial published this week in the Nation that implied that the army is a much more significant factor than normally regarded- There was another last week that quoted Jutaporn as stating that the soldiers on duty in Bangkok right now are receiving about four times as much bonus as those serving in the south- arguably a much less comfy and much more dangerous place to be. That this was published also was a bit surprising.

But then, we have to remember, the Nation is a local newspaper that events have propelled to some international regard- foreign journos will read the local press- and they will NOT be as willing as some (on this forum for instance) to allow propaganda to pose as journalism. The editors have a reputation to maintain- and their normal slant- that the very few red shirts that actually exist are all ignorant paid stooges isn't cutting it with foreigners on the international beat- who have seen this- and heard that- a bit too often.

[elcent]

Democracy can only occur once the military reports to the civilian government and only when it is the civilian government that dictates the military budget.

Right on...otherwise, we are just like Burma....

Or America...

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/6277/20100...ence-budget.htm

WASHINGTON - President Barack Obama asked Congress to approve a record $708 billion in defence spending for fiscal 2011, but vowed to continue his drive to eliminate unnecessary, wasteful weapons programs.

The budget calls for a 3.4 percent increase in the Pentagon's base budget to $549 billion, plus $159 billion to fund U.S. military missions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Total Outlays (Federal Funds): $2,650 billion

MILITARY: 54% and $1,449 billion

NON-MILITARY: 46% and $1,210 billion

Thai military puts up spending defense Feb 26, 2010

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LB26Ae01.html

After a steady nine-year decline in the military's budget following the 1997 financial crisis, defense spending quadrupled in the months immediately following the September 2006 coup, as the military embarked on a modernization campaign.

The minister proposed then to pay for the procurements by either increasing military spending from 1.58% of gross domestic product to 1.8% over a first five-year period and rising to 2% until the end of the decade, or through an increased budget allocation for the military of $3.5 billion in the first five years and $6 billion over the second.

In July 2008, a request was made for a 17.8% budget increase for 2009, a rise of $755 million over the 2008 fiscal year budget. By 2009, defense budgets had doubled from $2.4 billion in fiscal 2006 to $4.8 billion in fiscal 2009.

...

Much of Thailand's equipment dates to the Cold War era and some of it, like the Cavalry's M41 tanks seen in footage of the 2006 coup, dates back to the 1950s

So the FEMA concentration camps still not finished yet?

[blaze]

Much of Thailand's equipment dates to the Cold War era and some of it, like the Cavalry's M41 tanks seen in footage of the 2006 coup, dates back to the 1950s

THat is disgusting. Let's hope that the next coup sees the army better 'dressed'.

[Publicus]

Army ranks are full of the guys who could not avoid the draft either by doing some play military time in college/uni or by paying their way out of conscription. Last time I looked Thailand had the 13th largest military of the world - 350,000 (and more generals than the 26 NATO countries combined).

We could debate forever about educated Germans circa 1933 and undereducated Thais of the present, but the fact remains that the Thai rank and file soldier is undereducated (at the least) and of low socioeconomic status. Yet they follow orders and execute coups and on past occasions have executed civilian Thais in the streets. I spent four years active duty in the US Army so it's inconceivable to me how soldiers can obey a commanding general or a tin pot colonel to overthrow the government by force or that a general could consider such a thing.

Often a coup prone country such as Thailand has special elite units that execute the coup - the same units by name/number over decades. Seldom if ever is the whole of the army involved, instead perhaps several battalions - which is a small number - do the heavy lifting at key locations strategic and tactical.

Reds, this is a conscripted army.....so why aren't the troops, which are from the 'oppressed classes' joining the 'class war' by siding up with the revolting peasants? The troops have lots of generals to chose from to lead them.

[MGiacomoCM]

After things changed, Thaksin is quite a fast learner, they all turned against him. He also had the best team working which are not coming forward now due to Thaksin's character issues, that is.

Sure. They like the power to remain in their own little circle of trusted families and individuals. They tried to make Thaksin part of it, but you don't get to be a self-made billionaire by letting others tell you what to do and making compromises I guess. All he needed was the votes of the poor majority (or so he thought), so he burned too many bridges. He felt just a little too confident I guess.

"kept' implies that the normal and even current position of the army is 'out of it'. Do you believe that it is? Ever has been?

I just meant that, one shouldn't focus on yellow vs red, Abhisit vs Thaksin. It's more a question of limiting Thai military interference in politics (a goal low level protestors of both sides could surely agree upon). I wouldn't mind seeing Abhisit as PM as long as he is not just a puppet for the military.

[mark45y]

What have they (military) ever done for this country? Why does their moral authority to decide above people's heads what they have to be forcefully protected from remain nearly unquestioned? Can't remember Thailand ever fighting a war in recent times and needing it's soldiers (much less it's high ranking generals club) to defend itself. And still: Wearing a shiny uniform with lots of medals and golden stars, all awarded without ever having to prove oneself in real wartime combat, seems to be give you legitimization to oust elected officials as you please.

Why is this 'accepted' by the greater part of Thai society?

What did the military do for Thailand? For starters they changed it from a monarchy to a constitutional monarchy in 1932.

They kept it safe during WW II by an alliance with Japan that kept Thai causalities on a par with Iceland.

They kept communism out when Burma, Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam suffered causalities in the millions. Vietnam also suffered many casualties after the end of the American Vietnam war as well as during the war.

I doubt anyone would argue that the economy of Thailand is better than the surrounding countries and that is primarily due to the military.

[Publicus]

Democracy can only occur once the military reports to the civilian government and only when it is the civilian government that dictates the military budget.

Right on...otherwise, we are just like Burma....

Or America...

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/6277/20100...ence-budget.htm

WASHINGTON - President Barack Obama asked Congress to approve a record $708 billion in defence spending for fiscal 2011, but vowed to continue his drive to eliminate unnecessary, wasteful weapons programs.

The budget calls for a 3.4 percent increase in the Pentagon's base budget to $549 billion, plus $159 billion to fund U.S. military missions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Total Outlays (Federal Funds): $2,650 billion

MILITARY: 54% and $1,449 billion

NON-MILITARY: 46% and $1,210 billion

Thai military puts up spending defense Feb 26, 2010

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LB26Ae01.html

After a steady nine-year decline in the military's budget following the 1997 financial crisis, defense spending quadrupled in the months immediately following the September 2006 coup, as the military embarked on a modernization campaign.

The minister proposed then to pay for the procurements by either increasing military spending from 1.58% of gross domestic product to 1.8% over a first five-year period and rising to 2% until the end of the decade, or through an increased budget allocation for the military of $3.5 billion in the first five years and $6 billion over the second.

In July 2008, a request was made for a 17.8% budget increase for 2009, a rise of $755 million over the 2008 fiscal year budget. By 2009, defense budgets had doubled from $2.4 billion in fiscal 2006 to $4.8 billion in fiscal 2009.

...

Much of Thailand's equipment dates to the Cold War era and some of it, like the Cavalry's M41 tanks seen in footage of the 2006 coup, dates back to the 1950s

There's nothing in the first link that indicates a 54% vs 46% defence:non defence budged spending ratio. USD $708 billion is not 54% of the total US government budget of $ 2.6 trillion. Someone needs to check his calculator. I'm reminded that figures don't lie but liars know how to figure.

Ninty percent of the first link provides facts of how the US has terminated weapons programs over recent years especially by Pres Obama and SECDEF Robert Gates. The link has good information, however, the allegation and the numbers in the post are erroneous.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Publicus

[anotherpeter]

The conspiracy theory thread is somewhere else.

If you really want to be helpful, provide the link. I can't find it.

Here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Mystery-Atta...uc-t351627.html

[gemini81]

So what, in Thailand the army is the boss while in the USA Halliburton is the boss. Just ask G.W Bush why we needed the Irak war!

The art of deception on a wholesale? http://media.abovetopsecret.com/media/3524...ver_Saw_Part_1/

not another conspiracy theory.

[MGiacomoCM]

I spent four years active duty in the US Army so it's inconceivable to me how soldiers can obey a commanding general or a tin pot colonel to overthrow the government by force or that a general could consider such a thing.

I don't get it either. If the US Army would overthrow its government I could perhaps get why soldiers might follow those orders considering they receive limited information about the facts behind it. People in the US have a lot of good reasons to hold their armed forces in high regard, which might give soldiers some faith that their commanders' orders are for the good of the country. But here? How many times has the army done this? If a young Thai soldier is ordered to participate in a coup, he should know exactly what he is taking part in, whatever made up reason he is given.

[mark45y]

Army ranks are full of the guys who could not avoid the draft either by doing some play military time in college/uni or by paying their way out of conscription. Last time I looked Thailand had the 13th largest military of the world - 350,000 (and more generals than the 26 NATO countries combined).

We could debate forever about educated Germans circa 1933[/color] and undereducated Thais of the present, but the fact remains that the Thai rank and file soldier is undereducated (at the least) and of low socioeconomic status. Yet they follow orders and execute coups and on past occasions have executed civilian Thais in the streets. I spent four years active duty in the US Army so it's inconceivable to me how soldiers can obey a commanding general or a tin pot colonel [/color]to overthrow the government by force or that a general could consider such a thing.

Often a coup prone country such as Thailand has special elite units that execute the coup - the same units by name/number over decades. Seldom if ever is the whole of the army involved, instead perhaps several battalions - which is a small number - do the heavy lifting at key locations strategic and tactical.

Reds, this is a conscripted army.....so why aren't the troops, which are from the 'oppressed classes' joining the 'class war' by siding up with the revolting peasants? The troops have lots of generals to chose from to lead them.

Boer war, The troubles, My Lai, Kent State.

And no, we couldn’t debate the fact that 85% of German voters, voted in favor of Hitler leading the country.

Edited April 1, 2010 by mark45y

[Old Man River]

But Chambers said the military was likely to keep up the pressure in private rather than stage another coup, allowing the country to maintain a "veneer of electoral democracy".

what does it mean? Throwing grenades to keep their hands in the cookie jar?

Why do you think the military is the guilty party in the recent bombings? Some look elsewhere.

The yellow menace, the olive jackboots, and the money-green elitist are the phony "grenade throwers". You should see the real damage inflicted with a M79 Grenade launcher, trust me, it doesn't look anything remotely similar to the mini damages shown on the TV as facts of evidence. Those little explosions look like they came from a cherry bomb or big fire cracker instead.

I am not sure why you have to describe the damage done by an M79 grenade launcher. Nowhere have I seen anyone writing about the damage done by these weapons. I certainly haven't.

On who is responsible, yellow menace?

[anotherpeter]

New Delhi, India (CNN) -- A new law went into effect in India Thursday making education a fundamental right for every child.

India makes elementary education compulsory.

Possible in Thailand you think, or is it only taaaaaalks?

Remember next month starts a new school year in Thailand. Most parents will be broke, which could also pore fuel into the fire. Why is the gov so slow in acting?

Does making it a fundamental right actually mean that everyone will get educated, or does it mean every can be educated ... if they want to?

It's not just a matter of making it available. You have to somehow make other alternatives (ie going to work) less attractive.

The problems with poor families is that they get everyone working as soon as possible, so that they can make money. So sending someone off to school, even if free, means that there is one less person supplying money to the family. It becomes a difficult choice when you are only just getting enough money to put food on the table.

[mark45y]

The only people education will help are the bureaucrats who run the education system.

Thailand needs industry to raise the wages of the average Somchai. England had an industrial revolution. Thailand needs the same thing. They rent factories they don’t own them.

Africa is a poop pile because they sell all their natural resources instead of refining them.

Industry will take care of the education if it needs qualified workers. It doesn’t need more qualified workers right now.

It is a chicken and the egg argument. Will the industry come if there are qualified workers? No. Industry will come if you make it financially lucrative to come and educate what ever workers it needs.

Do the powers that be want a middle class? No. Poor people and rich people have been doing just fine here for a long time.

[craigt3365]

I spent four years active duty in the US Army so it's inconceivable to me how soldiers can obey a commanding general or a tin pot colonel to overthrow the government by force or that a general could consider such a thing.

I don't get it either. If the US Army would overthrow its government I could perhaps get why soldiers might follow those orders considering they receive limited information about the facts behind it. People in the US have a lot of good reasons to hold their armed forces in high regard, which might give soldiers some faith that their commanders' orders are for the good of the country. But here? How many times has the army done this? If a young Thai soldier is ordered to participate in a coup, he should know exactly what he is taking part in, whatever made up reason he is given.

I am NO expert for sure, but with the US Army...and I would believe most of the 1st world's armies...they are fairly well paid. But not here. I know my father was in the Air Force and did OK. Not wealthy, but definitely upper middle class. For the officers, it is not easy to get into the services...nor to stay in them. I have known many who were let go early....basically forced out. For enlisted, it is a much better alternative than most have. Flip burgers in McDonalds...or flip burgers for the Army and be guaranteed free health care, free housing, and pretty much life time employment...or take advantage of free education and move up the social ladder.

Here in Thailand, you buy your way in. Then due to corruption, become fairly wealthy. Not all for sure, but definitely some. I remember meeting a late 20 year old army guy up in Mae Hong Son. He was wearing a nice watch, driving a brand new truck with all the fancy gadgets, and looking to open a biz in Pai. All on a 10,000 Baht salary per month...right....

These guys are out to protect their way of life. Plain and simple. Seemed like to me with Thaksin, it was the cops vs. the army. Guess the cops lost?

[elcent]

So what, in Thailand the army is the boss while in the USA Halliburton is the boss. Just ask G.W Bush why we needed the Irak war!

The art of deception on a wholesale? http://media.abovetopsecret.com/media/3524...ver_Saw_Part_1/

not another conspiracy theory.

Have you watched it? 70 minutes. It's not wasted time. Many facts are presented, so that to cut it out from theory.

I myself was surprised that the rubbles were taken away without searching and shipped to an African country.

When you watch Bush's reaction, do some body language study, you will see his fear's overwhelming him, why? (2nd clip). He looks more like a boy waiting for his punishment after having been caught stealing chewing gum.

[mccw]

The current army leadership "and (Abhisit's) Democrats are both adamantly anti-Thaksin", said Paul Chambers, a Thailand expert at Germany's Heidelberg University.

"The former currently dominates the armed forces, the latter the ruling coalition. It is thus in their mutual interests to remain together."

of course the army leadership would dominate the armed forces

[mark45y]

And why should it change? It hasn’t changed in almost 80 years. Do all the people posting in other threads about the red shirt issue understand? Why would anyone discuss a non event. Somebody, some journalist, some professor should find out what is really going on.

Is there something going on in the Army that no one knows about? If not any discussions about any kind of political change are fruitless and pointless.

The current story in this thread is the only mention I have seen in recent weeks that makes any sense at all.

[mark45y]

Why is it that every thread has to be turned into a referendum on American foreign policy. Especially when the American people have thrown out the administration in question.

Let Bush and Cheney go and find another reason to slog Americans.

OK we know you don't like Americans. Try talking about the thread you are writing in.