tigerfish Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 hi all, just finished watching the movie "the dammed united". that depicts brian cloughs early years as a manager at derby county and later on at leeds utd. it mainly focuses on how he took derby from the foot of the second division to champions of the first, his relationship with peter taylor and his fixation with don reevie and leeds utd. i was a bit young at the time to fully understand what was really going on, so it was interesting viewing. i do remember his managerial feats though at notts forest. one question that always pops up now and again, is why he never made it to become england manager. i know a lot has been said about him being to vocal and would never have fitted in, put to many noses out of joint. what do you think though, what did you think of him as a manager? do you think the ruling bodies missed a trick by passing him by? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmine Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 What the book and film also tell you is how important Peter Taylor was to the success achieved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whichschool Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 He was interviewed for it but turned down with Ron Greenwood getting the job ... its a good movie but his family spoke out about its innacuracy for some reason. No manager will ever repeat what he done at Forest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaimai Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 He was interviewed for it but turned down with Ron Greenwood getting the job ... its a good movie but his family spoke out about its innacuracy for some reason.No manager will ever repeat what he done at Forest Hear, hear. The film was quite well-balanced in my view (and recognised the importance of Peter Taylors role). Clough should have been given the chance to manage England though. Wrong time, wrong place as far as the FA were concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokie36 Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 The FA made the right choice on that one. Best England manager ever ....better even than McLaren! Really it was a disgrace he wasn't given the job he clearly wanted simply because the selection board(a bunch of nobodies who know next to nothing about football) didn't want to take the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacknDanny Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 I read every book I can get my hands on about Cloughie. For sure he was the best manager England never had. He was a genius!! You could have a separate thread on his well known sayings and stories. My 2 favorites, when he was in charge of England youth team, during the half time talk, the England team Doctor walked into the dressing room with oranges and such like. Cloughie shouts over...." I dont know who you are or who let you in....... but F#ck Off" And when he was manager at Forest, Martin O' Neill went into his office and demanded to know why he kept being played in the reserve team. Cloughie responded, as only he could..... "Because you are too good for the Third team!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbojangles Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 And when he was manager at Forest, Martin O' Neill went into his office and demanded to know why he kept being played in the reserve team.Cloughie responded, as only he could..... "Because you are too good for the Third team!!" Classic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonrakers Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 Interviewer: "So what about your management style, do you listen to other's opinions?" Cloughie: "Of course I do. If somebody has a problem then I will sit down and talk to them about it for 20 minutes, after which we will decide that I was right all along" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmine Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 He was interviewed for it but turned down with Ron Greenwood getting the job ... its a good movie but his family spoke out about its innacuracy for some reason.No manager will ever repeat what he done at Forest Hear, hear. The film was quite well-balanced in my view (and recognised the importance of Peter Taylors role). Clough should have been given the chance to manage England though. Wrong time, wrong place as far as the FA were concerned. My take from the book and film is that whilst Cloughie knew what he wanted and how too achieve it, Taylor had the genious of spotting/choosing the right players. Prime example, my all time Tottenham hero Dave Mackay who was bought in at Derby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whichschool Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 I like the last few words of this clip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacknDanny Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 He was interviewed for it but turned down with Ron Greenwood getting the job ... its a good movie but his family spoke out about its innacuracy for some reason.No manager will ever repeat what he done at Forest Hear, hear. The film was quite well-balanced in my view (and recognised the importance of Peter Taylors role). Clough should have been given the chance to manage England though. Wrong time, wrong place as far as the FA were concerned. My take from the book and film is that whilst Cloughie knew what he wanted and how too achieve it, Taylor had the genious of spotting/choosing the right players. Prime example, my all time Tottenham hero Dave Mackay who was bought in at Derby His rep went a bit askew with Justin Fashanu But you are right, and Cloughie was quick to point out the genius of Taylor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaimai Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 My take from the book and film is that whilst Cloughie knew what he wanted and how too achieve it, Taylor had the genious of spotting/choosing the right players. Prime example, my all time Tottenham hero Dave Mackay who was bought in at Derby There are a few other classics like Kenny Burns - buying him as a striker from Birmingham and turning him into one of the best central defenders in division one. Clough and Taylor would take risks. Taylor would get to know their strengths and weaknesses (horses/dogs/drink) and Cloughie would motivate them. Shilton - the most expensive goalkeeper, Trevor Francis - the first (almost) Million Pound man. Clough made a few ricketts - Wallace, Ward and Fashanu were, as I recall, all million pound misfits. Son Nigel ( a player who's footballing brain made up for any lack of pace and could make the sort of pass that nade you go "wow!".) is shaping up nicely as a potential top flight manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royspurs Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 I tend to agree with the above statements, however, Derby & Nottingham Forest were smaller clubs that hit dizzy heights. If you look at recent-ish England managers with a similar profile none have given us the success that we crave and many have been embarrassingly poor, whilst Clough did wonders with smaller clubs (no offence intended to their supporters) would that have transposed into success for England when you can choose from the top draw. See below and enjoy the memories……………………………. Manager England career http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandMercer, JoeJoe Mercer 1974 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandRevie, DonDon Revie 1974–1977 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandGreenwood, RonRon Greenwood 1977–1982 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandRobson, BobbyBobby Robson 1982–1990 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandTaylor, GrahamGraham Taylor 1990–1993 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandVenables, TerryTerry Venables 1994–1996 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandHoddle, GlennGlenn Hoddle 1996–1999 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandWilkinson, HowardHoward Wilkinson 1999 & 2000 (two stints) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandKeegan, KevinKevin Keegan 1999–2000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandTaylor, PeterPeter Taylor 2000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SwedenEriksson, Sven-GöranSven-Göran Eriksson 2001–2006 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandMcClaren, SteveSteve McClaren 2006–2007 Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacknDanny Posted April 4, 2010 Share Posted April 4, 2010 I tend to agree with the above statements, however, Derby & Nottingham Forest were smaller clubs that hit dizzy heights.If you look at recent-ish England managers with a similar profile none have given us the success that we crave and many have been embarrassingly poor, whilst Clough did wonders with smaller clubs (no offence intended to their supporters) would that have transposed into success for England when you can choose from the top draw. See below and enjoy the memories……………………………. Manager England career http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandMercer, JoeJoe Mercer 1974 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandRevie, DonDon Revie 1974–1977 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandGreenwood, RonRon Greenwood 1977–1982 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandRobson, BobbyBobby Robson 1982–1990 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandTaylor, GrahamGraham Taylor 1990–1993 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandVenables, TerryTerry Venables 1994–1996 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandHoddle, GlennGlenn Hoddle 1996–1999 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandWilkinson, HowardHoward Wilkinson 1999 & 2000 (two stints) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandKeegan, KevinKevin Keegan 1999–2000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandTaylor, PeterPeter Taylor 2000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SwedenEriksson, Sven-GöranSven-Göran Eriksson 2001–2006 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandMcClaren, SteveSteve McClaren 2006–2007 Thoughts? F First of all, how many of the above-named managers have won the European Cup ( or equivalent) Answer Zero. Cloughie did it........ BACK TO BACK !!! And he did that with a relatively small team, with relatively little money. Even the so called greats Shankly/Paisley/ Mourinho/Ferguson/Wenger............. None of them achieved that. The mistake that a lot of managers make is when they go from a relative small club with no money, to a big club with lots of money. They make huge mistakes in the transfer market and overpay for players (Clough made very few bad buys) But as England manager you have the choice of everyone, you not paying anything. To be successful you have to be technically smart (Clough was) and a superb man-manager and motivator (Clough was the best). The FA, back then the same as it is now, was run by spineless t@ssers. Cloughie himself said...."I am sure the England selectors thought if they took me on and gave me the jod, I would want to run the show. They were shrewd because thats exactly what I would have done"!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldgit Posted April 4, 2010 Share Posted April 4, 2010 A relative of mine was a player at Derby when Cloughie was there.One day,he noticed a young lady standing outside the entrance to the his office and it was bucketing down. Relative.."Who are you? Your'e wringing wet" Lady......."I'm a reporter,I'm waiting to see Mr.Clough." Relative..."Well,stand inside the porch or you'll get pneumonia" Lady........"But Mr. Clough said stand outside." Relative...."Don't be ridiculous,stand in the porch." At that moment,Cloughie appears. Clough......"What are you doing here,I told you to wait outside." Lady........."But this young man said I could wait in the porch." Clough to my relative...."Listen,when your'e the manager,you can give the orders but while I'm here,I give the orders,<deleted> off!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevieH Posted April 4, 2010 Share Posted April 4, 2010 First of all, how many of the above-named managers have won the European Cup ( or equivalent)Answer Zero. Cloughie did it........ BACK TO BACK !!! And he did that with a relatively small team, with relatively little money. Even the so called greats Shankly/Paisley/ Mourinho/Ferguson/Wenger............. None of them achieved that. The mistake that a lot of managers make is when they go from a relative small club with no money, to a big club with lots of money. They make huge mistakes in the transfer market and overpay for players (Clough made very few bad buys) But as England manager you have the choice of everyone, you not paying anything. To be successful you have to be technically smart (Clough was) and a superb man-manager and motivator (Clough was the best). The FA, back then the same as it is now, was run by spineless t@ssers. Cloughie himself said...."I am sure the England selectors thought if they took me on and gave me the jod, I would want to run the show. They were shrewd because thats exactly what I would have done"!!! bob paisley won back to back european cups. though i guess your argument is that he didn't do it with a smallish club like clough did. clough was far too controversial for the FA back in those days, but he still essentially talked his own way out of the job. don't necessarily think he'd have won anything with england anyway as the squad at that time wasn't too full of really top class players. incidentally anyone who hasn't read the book of the damned united by david peace should get hold of it immediately. stunning piece of work and a must for any football fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmine Posted April 5, 2010 Share Posted April 5, 2010 First of all, how many of the above-named managers have won the European Cup ( or equivalent)Answer Zero. Cloughie did it........ BACK TO BACK !!! And he did that with a relatively small team, with relatively little money. Even the so called greats Shankly/Paisley/ Mourinho/Ferguson/Wenger............. None of them achieved that. The mistake that a lot of managers make is when they go from a relative small club with no money, to a big club with lots of money. They make huge mistakes in the transfer market and overpay for players (Clough made very few bad buys) But as England manager you have the choice of everyone, you not paying anything. To be successful you have to be technically smart (Clough was) and a superb man-manager and motivator (Clough was the best). The FA, back then the same as it is now, was run by spineless t@ssers. Cloughie himself said...."I am sure the England selectors thought if they took me on and gave me the jod, I would want to run the show. They were shrewd because thats exactly what I would have done"!!! bob paisley won back to back european cups. though i guess your argument is that he didn't do it with a smallish club like clough did. clough was far too controversial for the FA back in those days, but he still essentially talked his own way out of the job. don't necessarily think he'd have won anything with england anyway as the squad at that time wasn't too full of really top class players. incidentally anyone who hasn't read the book of the damned united by david peace should get hold of it immediately. stunning piece of work and a must for any football fan. Yep, too right Stevie, but if you get it, don't lend it out or you won't get it back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevieH Posted April 5, 2010 Share Posted April 5, 2010 Yep, too right Stevie, but if you get it, don't lend it out or you won't get it back! i give books away when i've read them mate. share the wealth and that. you read david peace's other books? the red riding trilogy and GB84 are equally superb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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