The Greatest Mananger England Never Had!

[tigerfish]

hi all,

just finished watching the movie "the dammed united". that depicts brian cloughs early years as a manager at derby county and later on at leeds utd. it mainly focuses on how he took derby from the foot of the second division to champions of the first, his relationship with peter taylor and his fixation with don reevie and leeds utd.

i was a bit young at the time to fully understand what was really going on, so it was interesting viewing. i do remember his managerial feats though at notts forest.

one question that always pops up now and again, is why he never made it to become england manager.

i know a lot has been said about him being to vocal and would never have fitted in, put to many noses out of joint.

what do you think though, what did you think of him as a manager? do you think the ruling bodies missed a trick by passing him by?

[carmine]

What the book and film also tell you is how important Peter Taylor was to the success achieved

[whichschool]

He was interviewed for it but turned down with Ron Greenwood getting the job ... its a good movie but his family spoke out about its innacuracy for some reason.

No manager will ever repeat what he done at Forest

[Chaimai]

He was interviewed for it but turned down with Ron Greenwood getting the job ... its a good movie but his family spoke out about its innacuracy for some reason.

No manager will ever repeat what he done at Forest

Hear, hear.

The film was quite well-balanced in my view (and recognised the importance of Peter Taylors role).

Clough should have been given the chance to manage England though. Wrong time, wrong place as far as the FA were concerned.

[smokie36]

The FA made the right choice on that one. Best England manager ever ....better even than McLaren!

Really it was a disgrace he wasn't given the job he clearly wanted simply because the selection board(a bunch of nobodies who know next to nothing about football) didn't want to take the risk.

[JacknDanny]

I read every book I can get my hands on about Cloughie.

For sure he was the best manager England never had.

He was a genius!!

You could have a separate thread on his well known sayings and stories.

My 2 favorites, when he was in charge of England youth team, during the half time talk, the England team Doctor walked into the dressing room with oranges and such like. Cloughie shouts over...." I dont know who you are or who let you in....... but F#ck Off"

And when he was manager at Forest, Martin O' Neill went into his office and demanded to know why he kept being played in the reserve team.

Cloughie responded, as only he could..... "Because you are too good for the Third team!!"

[mrbojangles]

And when he was manager at Forest, Martin O' Neill went into his office and demanded to know why he kept being played in the reserve team.

Cloughie responded, as only he could..... "Because you are too good for the Third team!!"

Classic

[Moonrakers]

Interviewer: "So what about your management style, do you listen to other's opinions?"

Cloughie: "Of course I do. If somebody has a problem then I will sit down and talk to them about it for 20 minutes, after which we will decide that I was right all along"

[carmine]

He was interviewed for it but turned down with Ron Greenwood getting the job ... its a good movie but his family spoke out about its innacuracy for some reason.

No manager will ever repeat what he done at Forest

Hear, hear.

The film was quite well-balanced in my view (and recognised the importance of Peter Taylors role).

Clough should have been given the chance to manage England though. Wrong time, wrong place as far as the FA were concerned.

My take from the book and film is that whilst Cloughie knew what he wanted and how too achieve it, Taylor had the genious of spotting/choosing the right players. Prime example, my all time Tottenham hero Dave Mackay who was bought in at Derby

[whichschool]

I like the last few words of this clip

[JacknDanny]

He was interviewed for it but turned down with Ron Greenwood getting the job ... its a good movie but his family spoke out about its innacuracy for some reason.

No manager will ever repeat what he done at Forest

Hear, hear.

The film was quite well-balanced in my view (and recognised the importance of Peter Taylors role).

Clough should have been given the chance to manage England though. Wrong time, wrong place as far as the FA were concerned.

My take from the book and film is that whilst Cloughie knew what he wanted and how too achieve it, Taylor had the genious of spotting/choosing the right players. Prime example, my all time Tottenham hero Dave Mackay who was bought in at Derby

His rep went a bit askew with Justin Fashanu

But you are right, and Cloughie was quick to point out the genius of Taylor.

[Chaimai]

My take from the book and film is that whilst Cloughie knew what he wanted and how too achieve it, Taylor had the genious of spotting/choosing the right players. Prime example, my all time Tottenham hero Dave Mackay who was bought in at Derby

There are a few other classics like Kenny Burns - buying him as a striker from Birmingham and turning him into one of the best central defenders in division one.

Clough and Taylor would take risks. Taylor would get to know their strengths and weaknesses (horses/dogs/drink) and Cloughie would motivate them. Shilton - the most expensive goalkeeper, Trevor Francis - the first (almost) Million Pound man.

Clough made a few ricketts - Wallace, Ward and Fashanu were, as I recall, all million pound misfits.

Son Nigel ( a player who's footballing brain made up for any lack of pace and could make the sort of pass that nade you go "wow!".) is shaping up nicely as a potential top flight manager.

[Royspurs]

I tend to agree with the above statements, however, Derby & Nottingham Forest were smaller clubs that hit dizzy heights.

If you look at recent-ish England managers with a similar profile none have given us the success that we crave and many have been embarrassingly poor, whilst Clough did wonders with smaller clubs (no offence intended to their supporters) would that have transposed into success for England when you can choose from the top draw.

See below and enjoy the memories…………………………….

Manager

England career

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandMercer, JoeJoe Mercer

1974

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandRevie, DonDon Revie

1974–1977

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandGreenwood, RonRon Greenwood

1977–1982

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandRobson, BobbyBobby Robson

1982–1990

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandTaylor, GrahamGraham Taylor

1990–1993

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandVenables, TerryTerry Venables

1994–1996

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandHoddle, GlennGlenn Hoddle

1996–1999

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandWilkinson, HowardHoward Wilkinson

1999 & 2000 (two stints)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandKeegan, KevinKevin Keegan

1999–2000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandTaylor, PeterPeter Taylor

2000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SwedenEriksson, Sven-GöranSven-Göran Eriksson

2001–2006

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandMcClaren, SteveSteve McClaren

2006–2007

Thoughts?

[JacknDanny]

I tend to agree with the above statements, however, Derby & Nottingham Forest were smaller clubs that hit dizzy heights.

If you look at recent-ish England managers with a similar profile none have given us the success that we crave and many have been embarrassingly poor, whilst Clough did wonders with smaller clubs (no offence intended to their supporters) would that have transposed into success for England when you can choose from the top draw.

See below and enjoy the memories…………………………….

Manager

England career

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandMercer, JoeJoe Mercer

1974

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandRevie, DonDon Revie

1974–1977

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandGreenwood, RonRon Greenwood

1977–1982

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandRobson, BobbyBobby Robson

1982–1990

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandTaylor, GrahamGraham Taylor

1990–1993

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandVenables, TerryTerry Venables

1994–1996

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandHoddle, GlennGlenn Hoddle

1996–1999

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandWilkinson, HowardHoward Wilkinson

1999 & 2000 (two stints)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandKeegan, KevinKevin Keegan

1999–2000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandTaylor, PeterPeter Taylor

2000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SwedenEriksson, Sven-GöranSven-Göran Eriksson

2001–2006

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnglandMcClaren, SteveSteve McClaren

2006–2007

Thoughts?

F

First of all, how many of the above-named managers have won the European Cup ( or equivalent)

Answer Zero.

Cloughie did it........ BACK TO BACK !!! And he did that with a relatively small team, with relatively little money.

Even the so called greats Shankly/Paisley/ Mourinho/Ferguson/Wenger............. None of them achieved that.

The mistake that a lot of managers make is when they go from a relative small club with no money, to a big club with lots of money. They make huge mistakes in the transfer market and overpay for players (Clough made very few bad buys)

But as England manager you have the choice of everyone, you not paying anything. To be successful you have to be technically smart (Clough was) and a superb man-manager and motivator (Clough was the best).

The FA, back then the same as it is now, was run by spineless t@ssers.

Cloughie himself said...."I am sure the England selectors thought if they took me on and gave me the jod, I would want to run the show. They were shrewd because thats exactly what I would have done"!!!

[oldgit]

A relative of mine was a player at Derby when Cloughie was there.One day,he noticed a young lady standing outside the entrance to the his office and it was bucketing down.

Relative.."Who are you? Your'e wringing wet"

Lady......."I'm a reporter,I'm waiting to see Mr.Clough."

Relative..."Well,stand inside the porch or you'll get pneumonia"

Lady........"But Mr. Clough said stand outside."

Relative...."Don't be ridiculous,stand in the porch."

At that moment,Cloughie appears.

Clough......"What are you doing here,I told you to wait outside."

Lady........."But this young man said I could wait in the porch."

Clough to my relative...."Listen,when your'e the manager,you can give the orders but while I'm here,I give the orders,<deleted> off!"

[StevieH]

First of all, how many of the above-named managers have won the European Cup ( or equivalent)

Answer Zero.

Cloughie did it........ BACK TO BACK !!! And he did that with a relatively small team, with relatively little money.

Even the so called greats Shankly/Paisley/ Mourinho/Ferguson/Wenger............. None of them achieved that.

The mistake that a lot of managers make is when they go from a relative small club with no money, to a big club with lots of money. They make huge mistakes in the transfer market and overpay for players (Clough made very few bad buys)

But as England manager you have the choice of everyone, you not paying anything. To be successful you have to be technically smart (Clough was) and a superb man-manager and motivator (Clough was the best).

The FA, back then the same as it is now, was run by spineless t@ssers.

Cloughie himself said...."I am sure the England selectors thought if they took me on and gave me the jod, I would want to run the show. They were shrewd because thats exactly what I would have done"!!!

bob paisley won back to back european cups. though i guess your argument is that he didn't do it with a smallish club like clough did.

clough was far too controversial for the FA back in those days, but he still essentially talked his own way out of the job. don't necessarily think he'd have won anything with england anyway as the squad at that time wasn't too full of really top class players.

incidentally anyone who hasn't read the book of the damned united by david peace should get hold of it immediately. stunning piece of work and a must for any football fan.

[carmine]

First of all, how many of the above-named managers have won the European Cup ( or equivalent)

Answer Zero.

Cloughie did it........ BACK TO BACK !!! And he did that with a relatively small team, with relatively little money.

Even the so called greats Shankly/Paisley/ Mourinho/Ferguson/Wenger............. None of them achieved that.

The mistake that a lot of managers make is when they go from a relative small club with no money, to a big club with lots of money. They make huge mistakes in the transfer market and overpay for players (Clough made very few bad buys)

But as England manager you have the choice of everyone, you not paying anything. To be successful you have to be technically smart (Clough was) and a superb man-manager and motivator (Clough was the best).

The FA, back then the same as it is now, was run by spineless t@ssers.

Cloughie himself said...."I am sure the England selectors thought if they took me on and gave me the jod, I would want to run the show. They were shrewd because thats exactly what I would have done"!!!

bob paisley won back to back european cups. though i guess your argument is that he didn't do it with a smallish club like clough did.

clough was far too controversial for the FA back in those days, but he still essentially talked his own way out of the job. don't necessarily think he'd have won anything with england anyway as the squad at that time wasn't too full of really top class players.

incidentally anyone who hasn't read the book of the damned united by david peace should get hold of it immediately. stunning piece of work and a must for any football fan.

Yep, too right Stevie, but if you get it, don't lend it out or you won't get it back!

[StevieH]

Yep, too right Stevie, but if you get it, don't lend it out or you won't get it back!

i give books away when i've read them mate. share the wealth and that.

you read david peace's other books? the red riding trilogy and GB84 are equally superb.