Democrat MPs Angry Over Suthep's Soft Handling Of Red-Shirts

[BKKer2010]

I am confused why the die hard Red and so-called democratic people here on TV are here today and not out protesting along with the Reds to help these poor people they claim are being so unjustly treated.

It is illegal for foreigners to participate in such protests.

LMAO -- it is illegal what the Red Shirts are doing too. They are all risking their freedoms and possibly lives but you are worried about losing a work permit visa? Truly you are not a Red Shirt or have any real sympathy for their cause.

Just there for the wiseass comment, but technically it isn't illegal, as the constitution guarantees their right to assemble for political protest, unless special security laws come in effect. Illegal would be if they actively blockade the entrance to some building or business. They're skirting close to it but not actually doing it, and it ain't even that hard for someone on foot to cross the protest site from one point to another.

Centralworld and the others closing is a tactical decision. They're playing it safe and rightly so I think.

The worst that could happen to your average red shirt protested is to get shaken down for tea money by the BiB. Only the leaders stand any real risk of getting arrested, and as the PAD showed, even that risk might be remote.

An expat who dons a red shirt to go protest however stands for one of two things: either getting kicked out of the country, losing their livelihood and possibly their house, or paying tea money, except a lot more of it.

You are on another planet if you don't think they are in violation of the law.

And if you are not willing to stand up for you beliefs then they are clearly not too strong. The Red shirts remaining are aware they now face a year in jail and the eventual force of the police if they don't vacate. They are risking all the same things and more than a farang would.

[animatic]

Now it seems the dems now in power are facing party dissolution ?

What's going on ?

It is a long long dormant story about one guy distributing funds in small amounts

to MANY different Dem members campaign accounts. Money allegedly given by one large company,

and laundered via some other company and then sent out in amounts small enough not to be noticied,

until 'somebody went looking for them'. I have smelled set-up all along in this.

That said, it was run past the courts and a No Confidence motion in Parliament was thrown out for lack of evidence,

and then PTP tried to force it on the Election Commission, who had earlier said not enough evidence....

There have been assorted announcements about it in the last year, but no one has ever said that

The Democratic Party is guilty of anything... except PTP MPs and Red Shirts.

And this is why the Election Commission is being targeted today.

Reds are convinced Dems are guilty, of course they are their leaders tell them they are,

so they assume the EC is crooked, of course we know the EC WAS CROOKED FOR TRT in 2006

So they figure making a straight arrow commission, makes it now crooked.

Not bias for them it must be biased against them. So a target.

It sure doesn't stop the PTP/Reds from trying really hard to make it seem Party Dem is going down.

One thing this is OLD well before Abhisit was Dem leader and he would not be required to step down

He is not involved.

I can hear the screaming now ... Oh Lordy lordy hangem high!!!

Thai politics as usual... PTP has failed on this for years literally

but seem to think they can get traction still.

Edited April 5, 2010 by animatic

[jdinasia]

Now it seems the dems now in power are facing party dissolution ?

What's going on ?

They have been facing that for ages. A week or so ago the EC said they would conclude the case on April 20.

The early reports were that the charges could not be proven and it was sent upwards for resolution. If that is true the reds are going to cry again....

But to be fair -- no the Dems are NOT facing dissolution. There have been charges filed that IF they are determined to be true could in fact lead to the party's dissolution. (semantics? yes! but a valid distinction!)

[BKKer2010]

Now it seems the dems now in power are facing party dissolution ?

What's going on ?

They have been facing that for ages. A week or so ago the EC said they would conclude the case on April 20.

Do you have any link to the EC saying this a week or so ago? I don't doubt you but would love to see this and further confirm the lunacy of these thugs willfully thumbing their nose at the law and people of this country.

[BKKer2010]

Deleted --- already answered

Edited April 5, 2010 by BKKer2010

[hammered]

Now it seems the dems now in power are facing party dissolution ?

What's going on ?

They have been facing that for ages. A week or so ago the EC said they would conclude the case on April 20.

The early reports were that the charges could not be proven and it was sent upwards for resolution. If that is true the reds are going to cry again....

But to be fair -- no the Dems are NOT facing dissolution. There have been charges filed that IF they are determined to be true could in fact lead to the party's dissolution. (semantics? yes! but a valid distinction!)

Chalerm first brough the TPI thing up in parliament and it wasnt very convincing and diudnt get much public traction as the chain was a bit vague. TPI iirc also threatened to sue over damage to reputation

True about could lead to disolution

There is another one about misuse of EC funds which is also a tad vague.

Neither of these cases are anything like the TRT and PPP cases which were basically slam dunks but the again the reds wont buy that just because the evidfential vaslue is different. It is one of the cases which isnt a double standard if the Dems get off. Some others are more double standardy like Sarayud but then aghain I dont see the reds compaling aboput Alpine so I dont see they can really talk about double standards. Well at least the majority of their leadership who are just Thaksin plants. The actaul poor in the movement have a lot to complain about but just need their own leadership. The biggets problem with them being kept down are the local feudal barons who they by a starnge quirk of fate have become allied with and this alliance will ultimately give them little more than scraps while enriching the local barons and making any chance of refoirm of the local feudal order even harder. Sad really.

[BKKer2010]

Now it seems the dems now in power are facing party dissolution ?

What's going on ?

It is a long long dormant story about one guy distributing funds in small amounts

to MANY different Dem members campaign accounts. Money allegedly given by one large company,

and laundered via some other company and then sent out in amounts small enough not to be noticied,

until 'somebody went looking for them'. I have smelled set-up all along in this.

That said, it was run past the courts and a No Confidence motion in Parliament was thrown out for lack of evidence,

and then PTP tried to force it on the Election Commission, who had earlier said not enough evidence....

There have been assorted announcements about it in the last year, but no one has ever said that

The Democratic Party is guilty of anything... except PTP MPs and Red Shirts.

And this is why the Election Commission is being targeted today.

Reds are convinced Dems are guilty, of course they are their leaders tell them they are,

so they assume the EC is crooked, of course we know the EC WAS CROOKED FOR TRT in 2006

So they figure making a straight arrow commission, makes it now crooked.

Not bias for them it must be biased against them. So a target.

It sure doesn't stop the PTP/Reds from trying really hard to make it seem Party Dem is going down.

One thing this is OLD well before Abhisit was Dem leader and he would not be required to step down

He is not involved.

I can hear the screaming now ... Oh Lordy lordy hangem high!!!

Thai politics as usual... PTP has failed on this for years literally

but seem to think they can get traction still.

Do the politicians need to "know" they accepted illegal contributions at the time for it to be illegal or to have a serious problem? Every party in the US is always caught getting money illegally or by some bad organization but the result is to simply give back the money once it is discovered. Is it different here or are the charges that there was a conspiracy within the party to get this money?

And to be fair .. what is the approx. total amount in question?

Sorry to be using you like an anchorman but if you have any links with the background on this would love if you can share.

Edited April 5, 2010 by BKKer2010

[NCFC]

I actually went to the effort of finding out the financial effect on just 1 business who closed yesterday. Major at Paragon alone are losing approx 5 million baht a day in lost ticket sales which will never be recovered because seats in a movie are a limited time constrained resource.

I am sure those of you who feel that the road closure is justified have your reasons.

But please stop trying to persuade owners and share holders of Major, etc that this closure has no real effect on people's lives.

It has and it does.

Not to mention the employees and suppliers and their employees,

all part of the chain of human support a large company provides.

That chain of support goes to people of all classes and all parts of the country,

even something as simple as a theaters candy counter closing means some drivers

won't be needed to deliver. What are the chances that driver is from issan?

Pretty darned good, but he won't be working this week, because nothing was sold,

and so he has no delivery to make.

Maybe his company gives paid day off or just lets him hang at the depot on the clock,

maybe it's; sorry no pay today.

No large business is a vacuum unto itself.

Thousands of Issan people are being put out by this fraction of their neighbors acting out.

If the delivery driver is from Issan, he's probably takng time off to join the protest....

Actually, I have been going down to Central Chitlom to pick up my niece after work as she works as a sales girl in the store. We walk down to the main protest site and spend an hour with the protestors. Many people working in the area do the same when the cooler evening weather makes it less uncomfortable. They are all behind the red shirts and support the aims of the democracy movement. I detect a sea-change from the first days of protest, however. The mood is one of imminent victory, that the government cannot hold out much longer. They do expect the army to instigate the first moves, but against Abhisit and not against the red shirts. I hope their optimism is well-founded because their are so many ordinary folk within the crowd - old people, young children, workers coming in after a day's work. If the army does crackdown it will be the slaughter of the innocents.

And another point, my niece says that many of the staff employed in Paragon, Central World etc. have been moved to other department stores in the suburbs, so they're not actually suffering loss of pay.

Undoubtedly some of the big stores are losing money by being closed, but most of it is being offset by higher trading at other branches in the 'burbs.

[molsey]

Well said Sir !!!!!

I too am in Bangkok (unlike many people on here I think).

There are no problems. Reds are in party mode, everyone is happy and lots of cars have Red flags and Red scarf's on them.

The mood of the Bangkok people in the majority is understanding and often at night many Bangkok people put on a red shirt and go down and support, which is why in the evening the numbers swell.

The English language local press appears to be "owned" at high level by the Yellow's (the media moguls) and so its not surprising to see the BP and TH spouting all sorts of nonsense and reports from "un-named sources".

Well done the Reds !!

You have lots of support in Bangkok and Thailand (but not so much in the Democrat loving South)

The government has seen so many deadlines pass they now look so weak its unbeleivable. And each time they issue another deadline and it passes they get even weaker.

The people support you Reds, keep on the fight for Democracy !!

So is it fifteen days from now or fifteen days from then?

When are we going to get the Final, Final, Final, Final, Final, Final, Final, Final red battle then?

Yawn!

[whatsupdoc]

I actually went to the effort of finding out the financial effect on just 1 business who closed yesterday. Major at Paragon alone are losing approx 5 million baht a day in lost ticket sales which will never be recovered because seats in a movie are a limited time constrained resource.

I am sure those of you who feel that the road closure is justified have your reasons.

But please stop trying to persuade owners and share holders of Major, etc that this closure has no real effect on people's lives.

It has and it does.

Not to mention the employees and suppliers and their employees,

all part of the chain of human support a large company provides.

That chain of support goes to people of all classes and all parts of the country,

even something as simple as a theaters candy counter closing means some drivers

won't be needed to deliver. What are the chances that driver is from issan?

Pretty darned good, but he won't be working this week, because nothing was sold,

and so he has no delivery to make.

Maybe his company gives paid day off or just lets him hang at the depot on the clock,

maybe it's; sorry no pay today.

No large business is a vacuum unto itself.

Thousands of Issan people are being put out by this fraction of their neighbors acting out.

If the delivery driver is from Issan, he's probably takng time off to join the protest....

Actually, I have been going down to Central Chitlom to pick up my niece after work as she works as a sales girl in the store. We walk down to the main protest site and spend an hour with the protestors. Many people working in the area do the same when the cooler evening weather makes it less uncomfortable. They are all behind the red shirts and support the aims of the democracy movement. I detect a sea-change from the first days of protest, however. The mood is one of imminent victory, that the government cannot hold out much longer. They do expect the army to instigate the first moves, but against Abhisit and not against the red shirts. I hope their optimism is well-founded because their are so many ordinary folk within the crowd - old people, young children, workers coming in after a day's work. If the army does crackdown it will be the slaughter of the innocents.

And another point, my niece says that many of the staff employed in Paragon, Central World etc. have been moved to other department stores in the suburbs, so they're not actually suffering loss of pay.

Undoubtedly some of the big stores are losing money by being closed, but most of it is being offset by higher trading at other branches in the 'burbs.

Again someone who doesn't seem to own a business and has really no clue how much this costs to people who do own a business. And it is not only the businesses in central Bangkok, all the protests will lead to less tourists and therefore will hurt businesses all over Thailand

[CLOD]

I can understand why the dems MP's are so angry with abisit over this.

After all, this peaceful demonstration has been going on a long time now, and its eatin em up inside.

They are so upset that abisit hasn't sent in the blue shirt mob yet which worked so well in instigating the violence at Pattaya and Sonkran last year.

They are wondering why abisit is reluctant to send in his blue shirt mob to cause the trouble like they did last time,so they can send in the army to kick sh*t out of the peaceful reds (thats Rural Electoral Democracy Supporters).

[pimay11]

I actually went to the effort of finding out the financial effect on just 1 business who closed yesterday. Major at Paragon alone are losing approx 5 million baht a day in lost ticket sales which will never be recovered because seats in a movie are a limited time constrained resource.

I am sure those of you who feel that the road closure is justified have your reasons.

But please stop trying to persuade owners and share holders of Major, etc that this closure has no real effect on people's lives.

It has and it does.

Not to mention the employees and suppliers and their employees,

all part of the chain of human support a large company provides.

That chain of support goes to people of all classes and all parts of the country,

even something as simple as a theaters candy counter closing means some drivers

won't be needed to deliver. What are the chances that driver is from issan?

Pretty darned good, but he won't be working this week, because nothing was sold,

and so he has no delivery to make.

Maybe his company gives paid day off or just lets him hang at the depot on the clock,

maybe it's; sorry no pay today.

No large business is a vacuum unto itself.

Thousands of Issan people are being put out by this fraction of their neighbors acting out.

If the delivery driver is from Issan, he's probably takng time off to join the protest....

Actually, I have been going down to Central Chitlom to pick up my niece after work as she works as a sales girl in the store. We walk down to the main protest site and spend an hour with the protestors. Many people working in the area do the same when the cooler evening weather makes it less uncomfortable. They are all behind the red shirts and support the aims of the democracy movement. I detect a sea-change from the first days of protest, however. The mood is one of imminent victory, that the government cannot hold out much longer. They do expect the army to instigate the first moves, but against Abhisit and not against the red shirts. I hope their optimism is well-founded because their are so many ordinary folk within the crowd - old people, young children, workers coming in after a day's work. If the army does crackdown it will be the slaughter of the innocents.

And another point, my niece says that many of the staff employed in Paragon, Central World etc. have been moved to other department stores in the suburbs, so they're not actually suffering loss of pay.

Undoubtedly some of the big stores are losing money by being closed, but most of it is being offset by higher trading at other branches in the 'burbs.

"They do expect the army to instigate the first moves, but against Abhisit and not against the red shirts. I hope their optimism is well-founded because their are so many ordinary folk within the crowd - old people, young children, workers coming in after a day's work. If the army does crackdown it will be the slaughter of the innocents".

This is exactly what the felon on the run hopes also. Can you not see through this mask the red leaders are wearing? As stated so many times on this forum (and not just by foreigners but Thai nationals also)it is only about Mr. T returning to get pardoned and retrieve his money. If these people were serious about helping the poor people whom they are leading as sheep to the slaughter, they would have accepted the offer from the government to have additional meetings. No they want a fifteen day agreement to which they have not offered any other plan to improve the daily lives of the poor, improve exports, imporve education, improve the value of the SET, on and on. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

How can anyone with any intelligence at all not see this?

You are correct in saying these old, young and workers are ordinary folks. They are being duped and don't realize it.

If the reds were serious in presenting a political platform to improve the things I mentioned above I would fully support them. But sad to say this is not the case.

[anotherpeter]

I can understand why the dems MP's are so angry with abisit over this.

After all, this peaceful demonstration has been going on a long time now, and its eatin em up inside.

They are so upset that abisit hasn't sent in the blue shirt mob yet which worked so well in instigating the violence at Pattaya and Sonkran last year.

They are wondering why abisit is reluctant to send in his blue shirt mob to cause the trouble like they did last time,so they can send in the army to kick sh*t out of the peaceful reds (thats Rural Electoral Democracy Supporters).

Has Abhisit got any connection to the blue shirt mob? Isn't that Newin's group?

Are you just making things up again?

[lannarebirth]

Kind of ironic all these expats coming from countries where their governments have looted the national assets and indentured the citizens into the distant future, started wars for no reasons, but they wouldn't fight THOSE governments. Not with their OWN blood. They sure get bloodthirsty on behalf of other people though. Yeah, let them shed some blood, yeah, burn it down. Yeah! Armchair insurgents.

Edited April 5, 2010 by lannarebirth

[Artisi]

I can understand why the dems MP's are so angry with abisit over this.

After all, this peaceful demonstration has been going on a long time now, and its eatin em up inside.

They are so upset that abisit hasn't sent in the blue shirt mob yet which worked so well in instigating the violence at Pattaya and Sonkran last year.

They are wondering why abisit is reluctant to send in his blue shirt mob to cause the trouble like they did last time,so they can send in the army to kick sh*t out of the peaceful reds (thats Rural Electoral Democracy Supporters).

Can you support that statement with some facts re the connection between Abhisit and the "so-called" blue shirts?

[Chaimai]

I can understand why the dems MP's are so angry with abisit over this.

After all, this peaceful demonstration has been going on a long time now, and its eatin em up inside.

They are so upset that abisit hasn't sent in the blue shirt mob yet which worked so well in instigating the violence at Pattaya and Sonkran last year.

They are wondering why abisit is reluctant to send in his blue shirt mob to cause the trouble like they did last time,so they can send in the army to kick sh*t out of the peaceful reds (thats Rural Electoral Democracy Supporters).

play_w2("C0413700")CLOD (kld) n. 1. A dull, stupid person; a dolt.[Middle English, variant of clot, lump; see clot.]hm()

[TAWP]

I am flattered to see that a moderator has weighed in, full bias and all and provided a response which wasn't even relevant to my initial position. I respond to the points as follows;

1. How many Issan farmers pay taxes?

Most of them. How so you ask? The Thai government introduced a series of indirect taxes in 1992 starting with the VAT. Although farm products are mostly exempt, the goods and services of many items associated with farming are not. Thailand never ever relied upon personal income taxes. It is a country where only about 20% of the population pays some form of income tax. If you believe that Thailand relies on that 20%, then you are greatly mistaken. the 3% SBT and 7% VAT are important revenue sources as are the other series of fees. The Issan farmer is alot like the Bangkok elites because that farmer pays the same rate of tax on his or her purchases. Unfortunately, such a system is hardly progressive and acts to put a larger share of the tax burden on the poor.

You are making 2 mistakes here:

1) You assume that the shop-owners keep accurate books and that they declare all incomes. As we all know, most street vendors (even if they reach the tax income bracket), mom and pop shops, normal stores etc greatly under-represent their incomes. If you don't believe me, just take a day and go over their books. I have seen some.

2) You say that a tax-system that is not progressing in scale is unfair to the poor when it comes to the VAT. Not at all, fair is that people pay an equal share added in tax on their purchase. The richer, doing more purchases, already pay several times more in actual tax baht than the poor. You want the one buying an imported steak instead of a cheap local chicken breast to be further penalized by adding twice the amount of VAT on their purchase?

[kissdani]

Seems like the red shirts have finally found a way to get the attention of the Bangkok elite--hit them in their pocketbooks!. Funny how serious the tone has become since the protest has settled in the center of capitalism in Bangkok. If this is not a class struggle, why has the outrage about the protests gone up several notches since their occupation of the Rachaprasong area? At the same time, the behaviour of the protesters has been non-violent--a real democratic nation would listen to the needs of the protesters(not necessarily the demands) and enact laws to give the poor opportunities to gain economic success(i.e. buy a home, have quality health care, earn a decent living, etc.)

Ah, but the current government has funded and implemented more sustainable programs to alleviate problems for the rural poor than Thaksin ever did. What they have not done is hand out CASH. For instance they have taken the 30 baht health-care plan that Thaksin claimed for his own (it wasn't) and made it free AND increased funding for it. The current government is working with debt relief for rural poor even though much of that debt was taken on during Thaksin's give-aways etc.

Your suggestion that the rally is peaceful is fabricated out of whole cloth. The red leadership has threatened violence at every turn and has recently spoken of atarting violence from the stage. They have also threatened the use of guerilla forces AND have threatened to make BKK look worse than the South when it comes to bombings. That is NOT peaceful.

Why has outrage gone up? The PAD demonstrated at Government House (out of the way) similar to where the Reds were (300 meters away). When they moved to the corner where a MAJOR hospital is they started inconveniencing and disrupting the daily lives of millions and by extension threatening even more millions.

Abhisit is the best PM Thailand ever had!

[britmaveric]

Abhisit is the best PM Thailand ever had!

:D

[10027586]

I'd have to agree. Abisit is a mature adult, who debates with reason and logic. I wish the rest of Thailand would follow suit (ie not calling cabinet members gay, comparing people to Hitler, etc).

[anotherpeter]

I actually went to the effort of finding out the financial effect on just 1 business who closed yesterday. Major at Paragon alone are losing approx 5 million baht a day in lost ticket sales which will never be recovered because seats in a movie are a limited time constrained resource.

I am sure those of you who feel that the road closure is justified have your reasons.

But please stop trying to persuade owners and share holders of Major, etc that this closure has no real effect on people's lives.

It has and it does.

Nah mate, people just go to their local neighborhood cinema instead of trekking all the way down to Paragon. I bet the suburban department stores are doing a roaring trade. The one I was in on Sunday was packed out.

Not everyone will go to another location to see a movie or to go shopping. Some will just stay home.

And maybe the big centres have some customers going to their other stores, but most of the smaller shops in Siam Square or even in the big centres don't have other shops for customers to go to, so these small businesses are losing money as a direct cause of the protests.

And how many hundreds of small shops are there in the Siam Square area?

Traffic problems caused by blocking the intersection also effects the Pratunam, Platinum and Pantip centres. There is no BTS to get to them. People have to use buses (are they still running through there) and taxis or private cars, so they will not bother going if they need to spend an extra hour or more in traffic. That's effecting hundreds more small shops.

[BKKer2010]

I am flattered to see that a moderator has weighed in, full bias and all and provided a response which wasn't even relevant to my initial position. I respond to the points as follows;

1. How many Issan farmers pay taxes?

Most of them. How so you ask? The Thai government introduced a series of indirect taxes in 1992 starting with the VAT. Although farm products are mostly exempt, the goods and services of many items associated with farming are not. Thailand never ever relied upon personal income taxes. It is a country where only about 20% of the population pays some form of income tax. If you believe that Thailand relies on that 20%, then you are greatly mistaken. the 3% SBT and 7% VAT are important revenue sources as are the other series of fees. The Issan farmer is alot like the Bangkok elites because that farmer pays the same rate of tax on his or her purchases. Unfortunately, such a system is hardly progressive and acts to put a larger share of the tax burden on the poor.

You are making 2 mistakes here:

1) You assume that the shop-owners keep accurate books and that they declare all incomes. As we all know, most street vendors (even if they reach the tax income bracket), mom and pop shops, normal stores etc greatly under-represent their incomes. If you don't believe me, just take a day and go over their books. I have seen some.

2) You say that a tax-system that is not progressing in scale is unfair to the poor when it comes to the VAT. Not at all, fair is that people pay an equal share added in tax on their purchase. The richer, doing more purchases, already pay several times more in actual tax baht than the poor. You want the one buying an imported steak instead of a cheap local chicken breast to be further penalized by adding twice the amount of VAT on their purchase?

They don't know what they want one minute to the next because it is Thaksin giving the leaders here their orders and then passing them down to the sheep. That is also why they often come across as be more about socialism than a democracy.

[steveromagnino]

Actually, I have been going down to Central Chitlom to pick up my niece after work as she works as a sales girl in the store. We walk down to the main protest site and spend an hour with the protestors. Many people working in the area do the same when the cooler evening weather makes it less uncomfortable. They are all behind the red shirts and support the aims of the democracy movement. I detect a sea-change from the first days of protest, however. The mood is one of imminent victory, that the government cannot hold out much longer. They do expect the army to instigate the first moves, but against Abhisit and not against the red shirts.

And another point, my niece says that many of the staff employed in Paragon, Central World etc. have been moved to other department stores in the suburbs, so they're not actually suffering loss of pay.

Undoubtedly some of the big stores are losing money by being closed, but most of it is being offset by higher trading at other branches in the 'burbs.

It's good to get a viwe from someone who has been walking around among the red shirts but I would like to pick up on a few slight issues with such a post.

1. 'Many workers.....They are all behind the red shirts' - well the only issue being that if this were true, the numbers of protesters right now from even the shopping centers and offices in the area would have swelled the numbers there beyond 200,000 which basically would entirely fill the whole street. Since this hasn't happened and just an hour ago looked like not reaching 100,000, it seems optimistic to say the least that 'all are behind' - you care to comment further? In most of the office buildings the mood is far from positive towards the reds, except at the lower income end; retail....the same - a few go; mostly the mob down there are riding in from other places with huge numbers of motorcycle taxis, taxis and so on making up the bulk of the support - there is very little real Bangkok support for the red shirts or for that matter for any political group. Most people are busy getting ready for a day off tomorrow and bunch didn't even come to work today and yesterday was a day off. So it is a bit early to be making any assumptions on this massive wave of urban support.

2. ' They do expect the army to instigate the first moves, but against Abhisit and not against the red shirts. I hope their optimism is well-founded' - so just to be clear, you've spent an hour walking around - a group who are advocating democracy now are hoping that the army will step in and take action against the government made up of elected representatives? This is really, not quite what Dr Weng has in mind I suspect, in a 'democracy' - let's hope something was lost in translation there. Basically, the red shirt's only hope now is an army led coup to overthrow the current government. You heard it here first. Awesome. Much as it is almost believable, I simply think something was lost in translation here; I think the last thing they expect is the army to overthrow the current govt ;-)

3. business losses....'Most of it is being offset by higher trading at other branches' - perhaps you can explain that to Isetan who have only 1 branch. Perhaps you can explain this to Naraiphund - one branch. Louis Vuitton - one flagship store (and different products in other stores). Emilio Pucci - 2 branches (gaysorn and Paragon). Major Paragon - they cannot shunt people off to other branches...because the other branches also run at 100% occupancy in the weekends. Zenith - one shop. Olivia Diamond - one shop. Or all the individual tailors in Amarin. Or Gaysorn (standalone), Amarin (standalone), Paragon (standalone; shareholdings are not the same as The Mall Group), Discovery (standalone), MBK (standalone) - basically it is only Central and Central Chitlom that have the ability to move staff at all; Paragon certain counters in the dept store do; some retailers might; most don't. And while some may do, you should bear in mind that the other branches already have staff so it is a case of simply using them for something rather than nothing; no matter how you look at it this is a big business loss.

I will mention this theory to the people at Paragon - I am sure they will be relieved to know that while they just gave up a HUGE turnover weekend prior to Songkran period (which is the worst week in the Thai retail calendar) that they should not worry....their customers just spent that money at Central, Robinson, THe Mall and Seacon Square. Yep, they will be really pleased that they just gave their competitors a record weekend of sales.

Of course, this is said with the utmost respect to your neice, but I wonder how many can really ascertain how the Chiratiwat family as well as the other 'elite shopping mall owners' view the current crisis if they don't work in retail senior management or at least speak in depth to those that do.

If you do, you might hear that while some support aspects of democracy, they don't see why they have to suffer the cost of it.

Edited April 5, 2010 by steveromagnino

[wayfarer108]

Bull. It is no longer a peaceful demonstration when you take an entire neighbourhood hostage, preventing people from going to and from their homes and places of work. When you prevent them from earning a living as street vendors, security guards, counter salespeople, maintenance staff office workers and so on. When you engender a climate of imminent terror in which ordinary people fear being attacked like the BMA workers who were only trying to service the portable toilets supplied by the city, or the car full of residents who were beaten for trying to drive home, not to mention the fear of M79 rounds and homemade bombs, you are no longer holding a "peaceful" demonstration in my opinion. The reds are driving up and down these streets with impunity while they will not let my car pass even though I live in the neighbourhood.

It is high time the UDD was declared a terrorist organisation and declared illegal, its leaders arrested and imprisoned. The current government has done absolutely nothing wrong in administering the country.

If dissenting groups have a beef with the military support the government has, it should take its demands to the military, not the democratically elected Parliament, many of whom were put in office by red voters.

Or just give the devil's minions what they want to more quickly expose the bait-and-switch scam that Thaksin and his proxies have prepared for them.

[Nuchanart]

Should the government gas them out?

[britmaveric]

^suggest you do not drive.

[geriatrickid]

I am flattered to see that a moderator has weighed in, full bias and all and provided a response which wasn't even relevant to my initial position. I respond to the points as follows;

1. How many Issan farmers pay taxes?

Most of them. How so you ask? The Thai government introduced a series of indirect taxes in 1992 starting with the VAT. Although farm products are mostly exempt, the goods and services of many items associated with farming are not. Thailand never ever relied upon personal income taxes. It is a country where only about 20% of the population pays some form of income tax. If you believe that Thailand relies on that 20%, then you are greatly mistaken. the 3% SBT and 7% VAT are important revenue sources as are the other series of fees. The Issan farmer is alot like the Bangkok elites because that farmer pays the same rate of tax on his or her purchases. Unfortunately, such a system is hardly progressive and acts to put a larger share of the tax burden on the poor.

You are making 2 mistakes here:

1) You assume that the shop-owners keep accurate books and that they declare all incomes. As we all know, most street vendors (even if they reach the tax income bracket), mom and pop shops, normal stores etc greatly under-represent their incomes. If you don't believe me, just take a day and go over their books. I have seen some.

2) You say that a tax-system that is not progressing in scale is unfair to the poor when it comes to the VAT. Not at all, fair is that people pay an equal share added in tax on their purchase. The richer, doing more purchases, already pay several times more in actual tax baht than the poor. You want the one buying an imported steak instead of a cheap local chicken breast to be further penalized by adding twice the amount of VAT on their purchase?

Tawp, you are the one that has it wrong. Maybe your libertarian sensitivities have taken over?

1. It doesn't matter if the mom amd pop stores under declare their income. They are taxed when they purchase their stock. That's how VAT works. The supplier charges them. True the suppliers can sometimes fiddle with their books, but who are the suppliers for all of these vendors? It all is in the hands of a few distributors who act as a semi monopoly. Who are the major trading houses in Thailand and who benefits from all of this? The same oligarchy.

2. You do not understand how a VAT/GST system works. Perhaps this is because you are an American and have never seen it in action. In an affluent nation it can and does work. However, in an impoverished nation, it has more costs than benefits. here's why;

The VAT classified as a regressive tax. Regressive taxes tend to benefit the wealthy and punish the poor. Why? Someone making 1 million baht a year may only spend 15% of their income, so only 15% is taxed. The guy that operates a noodle stand may only make 100,000 baht a year and spends it all supporting his family. As such this person is taxed on 100% of his income. You may counter and say well if this person doesn't spend he won't have to pay VAT, but what if he has no choice living a subsistence life?

Western countries like Canada address this negative aspect of the tax by providing automatic refunds paid on a quarterly basis to those below a set income. Thailand does not do this. I happen to be a big advocate of the VAT because it cuts into the "black" market for goods and services. The mechanic may make a deal to fix your car, but he still has to pay VAT on the parts that he will use for the repairs so the only thing he is giving up is his labour income. The government still manages to get more than it would under a basic sales tax system. However, VAT works best in countries where there is affluence.

Please also keep in mind that specific sectors and industries are VAT exempt. These special trade zones are not controlled by the poor, but once again by the same group of families that own most things in Thailand.

[way2muchcoffee]

I am flattered to see that a moderator has weighed in, full bias and all and provided a response which wasn't even relevant to my initial position. I respond to the points as follows;

1. How many Issan farmers pay taxes?

Most of them. How so you ask? The Thai government introduced a series of indirect taxes in 1992 starting with the VAT. Although farm products are mostly exempt, the goods and services of many items associated with farming are not. Thailand never ever relied upon personal income taxes. It is a country where only about 20% of the population pays some form of income tax. If you believe that Thailand relies on that 20%, then you are greatly mistaken. the 3% SBT and 7% VAT are important revenue sources as are the other series of fees. The Issan farmer is alot like the Bangkok elites because that farmer pays the same rate of tax on his or her purchases. Unfortunately, such a system is hardly progressive and acts to put a larger share of the tax burden on the poor.

You are making 2 mistakes here:

1) You assume that the shop-owners keep accurate books and that they declare all incomes. As we all know, most street vendors (even if they reach the tax income bracket), mom and pop shops, normal stores etc greatly under-represent their incomes. If you don't believe me, just take a day and go over their books. I have seen some.

2) You say that a tax-system that is not progressing in scale is unfair to the poor when it comes to the VAT. Not at all, fair is that people pay an equal share added in tax on their purchase. The richer, doing more purchases, already pay several times more in actual tax baht than the poor. You want the one buying an imported steak instead of a cheap local chicken breast to be further penalized by adding twice the amount of VAT on their purchase?

Tawp, you are the one that has it wrong. Maybe your libertarian sensitivities have taken over?

1. It doesn't matter if the mom amd pop stores under declare their income. They are taxed when they purchase their stock. That's how VAT works. The supplier charges them. True the suppliers can sometimes fiddle with their books, but who are the suppliers for all of these vendors? It all is in the hands of a few distributors who act as a semi monopoly. Who are the major trading houses in Thailand and who benefits from all of this? The same oligarchy.

2. You do not understand how a VAT/GST system works. Perhaps this is because you are an American and have never seen it in action. In an affluent nation it can and does work. However, in an impoverished nation, it has more costs than benefits. here's why;

The VAT classified as a regressive tax. Regressive taxes tend to benefit the wealthy and punish the poor. Why? Someone making 1 million baht a year may only spend 15% of their income, so only 15% is taxed. The guy that operates a noodle stand may only make 100,000 baht a year and spends it all supporting his family. As such this person is taxed on 100% of his income. You may counter and say well if this person doesn't spend he won't have to pay VAT, but what if he has no choice living a subsistence life?

Western countries like Canada address this negative aspect of the tax by providing automatic refunds paid on a quarterly basis to those below a set income. Thailand does not do this. I happen to be a big advocate of the VAT because it cuts into the "black" market for goods and services. The mechanic may make a deal to fix your car, but he still has to pay VAT on the parts that he will use for the repairs so the only thing he is giving up is his labour income. The government still manages to get more than it would under a basic sales tax system. However, VAT works best in countries where there is affluence.

Please also keep in mind that specific sectors and industries are VAT exempt. These special trade zones are not controlled by the poor, but once again by the same group of families that own most things in Thailand.

Good explanations GK.

[SoMeOnEnUlL]

^^ Thanks for the info, geriatrickid.

[kissdani]

Now it seems the dems now in power are facing party dissolution ?

What's going on ?

They have been facing that for ages. A week or so ago the EC said they would conclude the case on April 20.

That would explain why there a group of 30 MP voice their disappointment now. It isn't about to push Abhisit, but send signals to their constituencies. After a dissolution the new "Dems" will be without Abhisit Party leader get banned from politics. Korn and Ong-art will probably join New Politics Party.

I wish them good luck.