Farang Hatred Of The Reds ?

[zirc]

Excuse me

Thats a realy honest Opinion of Bangkok farang who knows the truth.

well done,and hope this tells many on here what it is like to be living/working in Bangkok as a farang

HAHAHAHA...

except he's NOT a Bangkok farang and he DOESN'T live/work in Bangkok.

(he said so himself earlier in the thread)

[mahtin]

Addressing the issue of waning support; I'd like to see tv ratings, as here in my father-in-law's house the red channel is on permanently, as it was in two other places I visited in Bangkok before coming here.

Up on the big road all the gai yang sellers are wearing red.

Presumably the anarchists were all headed for Bangkok as we travelled up. Certainly there were plenty of red shirts on the road. We were in a pickup, so perhaps have a better experience of reality than those who only fly.

[zirc]

A lot of the hatred of the red shirts comes from the anti-Thaksin stuff.

and why wouldn't the anti-Red sentiment be related to anti-Thaksin? It's the same thing.

The reason why quite a few of the geriatric farang crowd hate Thaksin is because he passed some laws that were perceived as anti-farang back in the day and I suppose old bitter persecution complex grudges last forever in those circles.

If you think that the reason that people oppose Thaksin is because of early bar closings or some other superficial "Thaksin-passed laws", you are completlely ignoring his dictatorial role, his Drug War slayings, his unrivalled levels of corruption, his manipulation and re-writing of laws to benefit himself financially, his escalation of the hostilities in the Deep South, missing human rights lawyers, the deaths of potential witnesses against him etc. etc. you have evidently missed many of the important parts of why he is opposed.

I'm astounded you can attempt to undermine those extremely critical aspects by trying to portray those that oppose him as some sort of woozy bar hounds.

You trivialize the deaths of many people who died because of his actions by doing so.

Edited April 6, 2010 by zirc

[anotherpeter]

I think we need to distinguish between the Red LEADERSHIP, who are Thaksin's cronies; and the mass of rural poor who are the Red foot soldiers.

I despise Thaksin and all his henchmen for taking an already extremely corrupt system of government and increasing the level of corruption by an order of magnitude - not to mention inflaming the south and extra judicially disposing of 2500 ALLEGED drug dealers/personal enemies of local police. Equally, I despise them for holding Thailand to ransom in a bid to get a very vindictive and totally amoral convicted criminal off the hook and back on the gravy train.

The rural poor by contrast have a load of legitimate gripes against the ruling class in Bangkok - not to mention rural middlemen like rice millers who always pay farmers bottom dollar even when the market price is high. Unfortunately, the poor are very badly educated (and whose fault is that?...). As a result, once Thaksin threw a few scraps their way, 30 baht health care, OTOP, loans etc; these people thought he was all things bright and beautiful. Why? Nobody else had ever done anything like this for them, and they were not able to recognise it as a marketing ploy (from a marketing man par excellence) for Thaksin's intended rerun of the Marcos years in the Philippines.

So, in summary, a plague on both Thaksin and the wealthy exploiters. Now, please can we have an honourable leader to make the case for the rural poor. Sadly, I'm not holding my breath.

Agree 100%.

Most anti-red TV posters do not hate the reds as a whole, they hate the red leaders and particularly Thaksin.

Yes, there are some posters that go too far in what they call the red protestors, similarly there are some that do the same towards the yellows or the bangkok "elite".

[zirc]

A lot of the hatred of the red shirts comes from the anti-Thaksin stuff. The reason why quite a few of the geriatric farang crowd hate Thaksin is because he passed some laws that were perceived as anti-farang back in the day and I suppose old bitter persecution complex grudges last forever in those circles.

Yes, I have always suspected this as well. You should have seen the posts during the 'social order' campaign.. Just about every bar-stool Farang thought it was a campaign against them personally.

OOPSY... sorry, but I couldn't help but notice that you wrote "seen the posts during" as that meant you must have spent a lot of time reading dead old threads then as I see your forum membership join date was long after the social order campaign was over. Just a dedicated reader is the explanation though, right?

Edited April 6, 2010 by zirc

[wintermute]

If you think that the reason that people oppose Thaksin is because of early bar closings or some other superficial "Thaksin-passed laws", you are completlely ignoring his dictatorial role, his Drug War slayings, his unrivalled levels of corruption, his manipulation and re-writing of laws to benefit himself financially, his escalation of the hostilities in the Deep South, missing human rights lawyers, the deaths of potential witnesses against him etc. etc. you have evidently missed many of the important parts of why he is opposed.

You realize that a lot of extrajudicial measures and military killings (especially in the south) were bipartisan in nature? There are PAD affiliated generals who were firmly in the camp of using force to quell southern militias and many minor and major police figures were on board and in active government positions with the drug killings as well. There's a reason why the court decided not to investigate these killings too closely because it would implicate too many people on all sides. To lay this all on Thaksin is just missing the bigger picture and you, like other fairly ignorant expats, have continued to sum up the situation in morally simplistic black and white terms.

If you want to criticize corruption in Thailand the root doesn't start with Thaksin but Thai culture in general. Look at how many active monopolies there are in Thailand and how the rich families control politics.

Much of the rural disatisfaction is based on simmering classism and other complex social issues that are beyond the scope of Thai Visa.

[zirc]

If you think that the reason that people oppose Thaksin is because of early bar closings or some other superficial "Thaksin-passed laws", you are completlely ignoring his dictatorial role, his Drug War slayings, his unrivalled levels of corruption, his manipulation and re-writing of laws to benefit himself financially, his escalation of the hostilities in the Deep South, missing human rights lawyers, the deaths of potential witnesses against him etc. etc. you have evidently missed many of the important parts of why he is opposed.

You realize that a lot of extrajudicial measures and military killings (especially in the south) were bipartisan in nature? There are PAD affiliated generals who were firmly in the camp of using force to quell southern militias and many minor and major police figures were on board and in active government positions with the drug killings as well. There's a reason why the court decided not to investigate these killings too closely because it would implicate too many people on all sides. To lay this all on Thaksin is just missing the bigger picture and you, like other fairly ignorant expats, have continued to sum up the situation in morally simplistic black and white terms.

If you want to criticize corruption in Thailand the root doesn't start with Thaksin but Thai culture in general. Look at how many active monopolies there are in Thailand and how the rich families control politics.

Much of the rural disatisfaction is based on simmering classism and other complex social issues that are beyond the scope of Thai Visa.

First, I think it would be nice if you didn't inflame others who voice an opinion by calling them "ignorant".

Secondly, as Prime Minister, he held the position of power. He was the top dog and as such, bears the lion's share of what happened. It's certainly not an exclusive responsibility and others under his command are guilty of offenses as well and should be held accountable as well, but much of it falls on his shoulders.

I never implied that corruption started with Thaksin, but he certainly took it to unparrelled new heights to the detriment of all. A review of his still pending cases awaiting his return are a testament to that.

I do note and appreciate your apparent insider knowledge with the courts regarding the Drug War killings.

But most importantly, I do take notice of the dramatic change in your tone about why people might oppose Thaksin from your earlier statements that it was essentially disgruntled bar hoppers.

[anotherpeter]

If you think that the reason that people oppose Thaksin is because of early bar closings or some other superficial "Thaksin-passed laws", you are completlely ignoring his dictatorial role, his Drug War slayings, his unrivalled levels of corruption, his manipulation and re-writing of laws to benefit himself financially, his escalation of the hostilities in the Deep South, missing human rights lawyers, the deaths of potential witnesses against him etc. etc. you have evidently missed many of the important parts of why he is opposed.

You realize that a lot of extrajudicial measures and military killings (especially in the south) were bipartisan in nature? There are PAD affiliated generals who were firmly in the camp of using force to quell southern militias and many minor and major police figures were on board and in active government positions with the drug killings as well. There's a reason why the court decided not to investigate these killings too closely because it would implicate too many people on all sides. To lay this all on Thaksin is just missing the bigger picture and you, like other fairly ignorant expats, have continued to sum up the situation in morally simplistic black and white terms.

If you want to criticize corruption in Thailand the root doesn't start with Thaksin but Thai culture in general. Look at how many active monopolies there are in Thailand and how the rich families control politics.

Much of the rural disatisfaction is based on simmering classism and other complex social issues that are beyond the scope of Thai Visa.

You are quite correct in that the problem isn't just Thaksin, but corruption on all sides AND at all levels of Thai society.

But having Thaksin, coming from a rich family, supposedly representing that rural disatisfaction is a bit of an oxymoron.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

A lot of the hatred of the red shirts comes from the anti-Thaksin stuff. The reason why quite a few of the geriatric farang crowd hate Thaksin is because he passed some laws that were perceived as anti-farang back in the day and I suppose old bitter persecution complex grudges last forever in those circles.

Yes, I have always suspected this as well. You should have seen the posts during the 'social order' campaign.. Just about every bar-stool Farang thought it was a campaign against them personally.

OOPSY... sorry, but I couldn't help but notice that you wrote "seen the posts during" as that meant you must have spent a lot of time reading dead old threads then as I see your forum membership join date was long after the social order campaign was over. Just a dedicated reader is the explanation though, right?

This was on a forum I unfortunately am not at liberty to provide a link for. Same basic demographic though.

I sincerely hope you have better things to do.

Edited April 6, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[zirc]

A lot of the hatred of the red shirts comes from the anti-Thaksin stuff. The reason why quite a few of the geriatric farang crowd hate Thaksin is because he passed some laws that were perceived as anti-farang back in the day and I suppose old bitter persecution complex grudges last forever in those circles.

Yes, I have always suspected this as well. You should have seen the posts during the 'social order' campaign.. Just about every bar-stool Farang thought it was a campaign against them personally.

OOPSY... sorry, but I couldn't help but notice that you wrote "seen the posts during" as that meant you must have spent a lot of time reading dead old threads then as I see your forum membership join date was long after the social order campaign was over. Just a dedicated reader is the explanation though, right?

This was on a forum I unfortunately am not at liberty to provide a link for. Same basic demographic though.

ah ok, gotcha

and that's about all they wrote about over there at this other forum as the reason someone might oppose Thaksin was because of the social order impact?

It's a shame then that the other possible reasons I listed never got picked up and discussed. Oh well, must have been real high brow talks at that place.

Edited April 6, 2010 by zirc

[clockworkorange]

Why do farangs hate the reds and support the yellows? Beats me.

The present Abhisit fronted government military junta has systematically made it harder for farangs to live and work in Thailand in so many ways, yet so many naiive farangs support their tormentors and despise a government that pretty much left them and the business world in general alone. Masochism if you ask me.

Many Farangs were brought up to espouse democratic values, yet in Thailand they so vehemently oppose a democratically elected civilian Prime Minister and instead support a Myanmaresque bunch of corrupt and incompetent old army generals that wouldn't look out of place among the dinosaur exhibits in a natural history museum.

Propaganda works on some people, obviosuly. Or maybe this is just another symptom of the funny effect that Thailand has on some foreigners - they become culture shocked and lose sight of their values, to the bizarre extent of supporting people who want to curtail their meagre rights still further.

Clockwork Orange is a great movie, a great nickname and this is a great post!

Agree about Clockwork Orange but the post is just rambling with no fact just statements made as facts with nothing to back them up.

You want facts? Where have you been?

Fact: a lot of farangs here hate the red shirts with a passion, and this observation is the topic of the thread

Fact: Thaksin, a democratically elected civilan prime minister, was deposed by a bunch of army generals, the CDR, CSD, et al. Included in this group were people like General Saprang, who took 13 of his cronies, including family members on a one-week, 7.2 million Baht, luxury "fact finding" trip to the UK and Germany. Upon his return, he refused to justify this outrageous waste of money. The decisions that the generals made following the coup were pure xenophobia - railing against foreign ownership, along with abrupt and rather drastic changes to the rights of foreign businesses, causing the stock market to tank on several occasions while they made and then abruptly rescinded various nationalistic orders. Fact: Incompetent and corrupt

Fact: Abhisit's govenrment could only come to power after doing a deal with Newin Chidchob, the banned for corruption ex-crony of Thaksin who lent Abhist the support of his faction of MPs.

Fact: since the 2006 coup, and all the way through Abhisit's reign, there has been a systemetic curtailment of foreigners rights to live, work, and do business in Thailand. Peruse the volumes of supporting evidence in the visa and immigration section, where you will find a plethora of threads describing in intricate detail the pain and gross inconvenience inflicted on foreigners who are trying to stay in Thailand. Visa running is a thing of the past, next to no PR applications have been approved since the coup, back to back tourist visas are a thing of the past, non-imm spouses and retirees have to jump through ever higher hoops and face a humiliating level of scrutiny at the whim of officials, etc, etc. Fact: Xenophobic and anti-foreigner agenda

Fact: Thaksin's government did not bother foreigners or the business world in general. He was seen as pro-business. He did not meddle with foreigners who were trying to scratch a living in Thailand.

Now here was me thinking that only a deluded or masochistic foreigner would, while trying to carve out a living in Thailand, support a regime that is so alien to the democratic values he or she was brought up to believe in and benefit from. Only a misguided individual would bang on about how great a government is that has a handsome public face but is behind the scenes is so xenophobic, and so openly curtailing foreigners rights to live and work in Thailand, while venting venom at a government that was benign in comparison.

But, then I read Geriatrickid's post and another thought occurred to me: perhaps there are a lot of foreigners living in Thailand who have failed in life and need somene to blame for it. Thaksin is a convenient target, if you were backing the wrong horse and lost out big time in doing so and now find it hard to look at yourself in the mirror.

Edited April 6, 2010 by clockworkorange

[rixalex]

To lay this all on Thaksin is just missing the bigger picture and you, like other fairly ignorant expats, have continued to sum up the situation in morally simplistic black and white terms.

Conversely, to play down Thaksin's role in the killings of thousands of innocent people is ridiculous. Yes, he wasn't the only one involved, but he was leading the nation and at the time he took the "credit" for it being his initiative. No, he couldn't have done it alone and without the help and agreement of many of others, but he was the one and only person who had the power to both give it the go ahead and veto it.

P.S. No need for flaming.

[vicco]

Why do farangs hate the reds and support the yellows? Beats me.

The present Abhisit fronted government military junta has systematically made it harder for farangs to live and work in Thailand in so many ways, yet so many naiive farangs support their tormentors and despise a government that pretty much left them and the business world in general alone. Masochism if you ask me.

Many Farangs were brought up to espouse democratic values, yet in Thailand they so vehemently oppose a democratically elected civilian Prime Minister and instead support a Myanmaresque bunch of corrupt and incompetent old army generals that wouldn't look out of place among the dinosaur exhibits in a natural history museum.

Propaganda works on some people, obviosuly. Or maybe this is just another symptom of the funny effect that Thailand has on some foreigners - they become culture shocked and lose sight of their values, to the bizarre extent of supporting people who want to curtail their meagre rights still further.

Clockwork Orange is a great movie, a great nickname and this is a great post!

Agree about Clockwork Orange but the post is just rambling with no fact just statements made as facts with nothing to back them up.

You want facts? Where have you been?

Fact: a lot of farangs here hate the red shirts with a passion, and this observation is the topic of the thread

Fact: Thaksin, a democratically elected civilan prime minister, was deposed by a bunch of army generals, the CDR, CSD, et al. Included in this group were corrupt and incompetent people like General Saprang, who took 13 of his cronies, including family members on a one-week, 7.2 million Baht, luxury "fact finding" trip to the UK and Germany. Upon his return, he refused to justify this outrageous waste of money. The decisions that the generals made following the coup were pure xenophobia - ranting against foreign ownership along with abrupt and rather drastic changes to the rights of foreign businesses, causing the stock market to tank on several occasions while they made and then abruptly rescinded various nationalistic orders. Fact: Incompetent and corrupt

Fact: Abhisit's govenrment could only come to power after doing a deal with Newin Chidchob, the banned for corruption ex-crony of Thaksin. Fact: corrupt

Fact: since the 2006 coup, and all the way through Abhisit's reign, there has been a systemetic curtailment of foreigners rights to live, work, and do business in Thailand. Peruse the volumes of supporting evidence in the visa and immigration section, where you will find a plethora of threads edscribing in great detail the pain and gross inconvenience inflicted on foreigners who are trying to stay in Thailand. Visa running is a thing of the past, next to no PR applications have been approved since the coup, back to back tourist visas are a thing of the past, non-imm spouses and retirees have to jump through ever higher hoops and face a humiliating level of scrutiny, etc, etc. Fact: Xenophobic and anti-foreigner

Fact: Thaksin's government did not bother foreigners or the business world in general. He was seen as pro-business, and did not meddle with foreigners who were tring to scratch a living in Thailand.

Now here was me thinking that only a deluded or masochistic foreigner would, while trying to carve out a living in Thailand, support a regime that is so alien to the democratic values he or she was brought up to believe in and benefit from. Only a misguided individual would bang on about how great a government is that has a handsome public face but is behind the scenes is so xenophobic, and so openly curtailing foreigners rights to live and work in Thailand.

But, then I read Geriatrickid's post and another thought occurred to me: perhaps there are a lot of foreigners living in Thailand who have failed in life and need somene to blame for it. Thaksin is a convenient target, if you were backing the wrong horse and lost out big time in doing so and now find it hard to look at yourself in the mirror.

Too many nails hit on the head to mention....congratulations! Now you realize my good man that you are a confirmed Thaksin "apologist" You must do something about this immediately. I recommend standing in front of a mirror and repeating "Thaksin evil, Thaksin thug, Redshirt morons" over and over until you reach the higher state of mind necessary to participate properly in a thread like this. Seriously---very good post!!

[Tolley]

Why do farangs hate the reds and support the yellows? Beats me.

The present Abhisit fronted government military junta has systematically made it harder for farangs to live and work in Thailand in so many ways, yet so many naiive farangs support their tormentors and despise a government that pretty much left them and the business world in general alone. Masochism if you ask me.

Many Farangs were brought up to espouse democratic values, yet in Thailand they so vehemently oppose a democratically elected civilian Prime Minister and instead support a Myanmaresque bunch of corrupt and incompetent old army generals that wouldn't look out of place among the dinosaur exhibits in a natural history museum.

Propaganda works on some people, obviosuly. Or maybe this is just another symptom of the funny effect that Thailand has on some foreigners - they become culture shocked and lose sight of their values, to the bizarre extent of supporting people who want to curtail their meagre rights still further.

Clockwork Orange is a great movie, a great nickname and this is a great post!

Agree about Clockwork Orange but the post is just rambling with no fact just statements made as facts with nothing to back them up.

You want facts? Where have you been?

Fact: a lot of farangs here hate the red shirts with a passion, and this observation is the topic of the thread

Fact: Thaksin, a democratically elected civilan prime minister, was deposed by a bunch of army generals, the CDR, CSD, et al. Included in this group were corrupt and incompetent people like General Saprang, who took 13 of his cronies, including family members on a one-week, 7.2 million Baht, luxury "fact finding" trip to the UK and Germany. Upon his return, he refused to justify this outrageous waste of money. The decisions that the generals made following the coup were pure xenophobia - ranting against foreign ownership along with abrupt and rather drastic changes to the rights of foreign businesses, causing the stock market to tank on several occasions while they made and then abruptly rescinded various nationalistic orders. Fact: Incompetent and corrupt

Fact: Abhisit's govenrment could only come to power after doing a deal with Newin Chidchob, the banned for corruption ex-crony of Thaksin. Fact: corrupt

Fact: since the 2006 coup, and all the way through Abhisit's reign, there has been a systemetic curtailment of foreigners rights to live, work, and do business in Thailand. Peruse the volumes of supporting evidence in the visa and immigration section, where you will find a plethora of threads edscribing in great detail the pain and gross inconvenience inflicted on foreigners who are trying to stay in Thailand. Visa running is a thing of the past, next to no PR applications have been approved since the coup, back to back tourist visas are a thing of the past, non-imm spouses and retirees have to jump through ever higher hoops and face a humiliating level of scrutiny, etc, etc. Fact: Xenophobic and anti-foreigner

Fact: Thaksin's government did not bother foreigners or the business world in general. He was seen as pro-business, and did not meddle with foreigners who were tring to scratch a living in Thailand.

Now here was me thinking that only a deluded or masochistic foreigner would, while trying to carve out a living in Thailand, support a regime that is so alien to the democratic values he or she was brought up to believe in and benefit from. Only a misguided individual would bang on about how great a government is that has a handsome public face but is behind the scenes is so xenophobic, and so openly curtailing foreigners rights to live and work in Thailand.

But, then I read Geriatrickid's post and another thought occurred to me: perhaps there are a lot of foreigners living in Thailand who have failed in life and need somene to blame for it. Thaksin is a convenient target, if you were backing the wrong horse and lost out big time in doing so and now find it hard to look at yourself in the mirror.

I sort of agree with this post.

Thaksin bashers need a reality check.

Those that opposed and deposed Thaksin did so because he was becoming too powerful and threatened certain vested venerated Thais.

They were worried that their lurks and perks and share of the rice bowl was being taken from them.

Sure Thaksin was corrupt and feathered his own nest but do you truly believe his opponents are really any better?

Do you see them reforming education, getting rid of corruption by restructuring the police and army and judiciary?

Not on your nelly. It is business as usual except the lurks and perks are going to those that think they have a god given right to them.

I can't really get excited over red or yellow shirts as really it is just more of the same thing with the money just going into different hands.

Wake up and smell the roses getting rid of Thaksin has not made Thailand any better or any less corrupt and indeed there is an argument to say that things are worse and the cost of doing business even more expensive under the new regime.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Tolley

[clockworkorange]

Too many nails hit on the head to mention....congratulations! Now you realize my good man that you are a confirmed Thaksin "apologist" You must do something about this immediately. I recommend standing in front of a mirror and repeating "Thaksin evil, Thaksin thug, Redshirt morons" over and over until you reach the higher state of mind necessary to participate properly in a thread like this. Seriously---very good post!!

Yes, yes. I realise that now I must pay and be vilified and burnt at the stake by the hysterical Thaksin witch hunt brigade - the ones who sit in the departure lounge because they no longer qualify for visas, thanks to the Abhisit government that they admire so much.

Edited April 6, 2010 by clockworkorange

[anon7867763]

I think that most people on this forum don´t care for red or yellow shirts which is quite a reasonable opinion really.

I personally find it strange that any government would back down to these rabbles.I personally sypathise with the rural reds

but they don´t know what they are doing following their leaders so they seem pretty ridiculous to me

[Stricken]

Because they are ingnorant and misinformed on whats really happening in Thailand politics

[clockworkorange]

I sort of agree with this post.

Thaksin bashers need a reality check.

Those that opposed and deposed Thaksin did so because he was becoming too powerful and threatened certain vested venerated Thais.

They were worried that their lurks and perks and share of the rice bowl was being taken from them.

Sure Thaksin was corrupt and feathered his own nest but do you truly believe his opponents are really any better?

Do you see them reforming education, getting rid of corruption by restructuring the police and army and judiciary?

Not on your nelly. It is business as usual except the lurks and perks are going to those that think they have a god given right to them.

I can't really get excited over red or yellow shirts as really it is just more of the same thing with the money just going into different hands.

Wake up and smell the roses getting rid of Thaksin has not made Thailand any better or any less corrupt and indeed there is an argument to say that things are worse and the cost of doing business even more expensive under the new regime.

Right - Abhisit represents business as usual - as you say, a continuation of the lurks and perks to those many undeserving people who think they are a God given right.

Abhisit's business as usual to your average rural (majority) Thai means more of the same too: grinding poverty and humiliation. The rural people love Thaksin because he broke with tradition and gave them tangible yet simple benefits like the right to see a doctor for 30 Baht, microcredit and development schemes. Things that we in the West take for granted but were hitherto unheard of in Thailand. Simple things that the rural people could undserstand, and that made their lives so much better. Sure, Thaksin was corrupt too, but like you say, who in Thai politics isn't? Why single out just one person with so much focussed hatred, while ignoring all the others?

The rural people haven't forgotten what Thaksin did for them, as we can see. Why on earth do so many foreigners here so violently hate the concept of a man whose policies helped people who have nothing, supporting instead a regime that is making it progressively harder for foreigners to live in Thailand?

The whole concept of supporting an organisation that seeks to get you thrown out of a place you call home is rather bizarre, and I really can't relate to it.

Edited April 6, 2010 by clockworkorange

[catmac]

I have never been able to understand why most of the Farang on TV are such fervent supporters of the Bangkok elite

Maybe because we held/hold down good jobs and are not of the same ilk as some who come over here and shag around around in the bars, have an ex bargirl girlfriend, is an ECC language school teacher who is feeding his whoring habit by working for 220bht an hour and has been here all of 5 minutes and knows it all?

Just a thought!

Glad to hear that your loathing is not confined to poor Thais, you seem to detest anybody who doesn't fit your definition of an upper middle class snob. I bet you think that your sh*t doesn't stink!

Of course, some would say that all those over-paid expats working here in LOS are just as guilty of exploiting the poor as Thailand"s own elite are.

I've often wondered what exactly Thaksin did to earn him the utter hatred that the Bangkok elites and their allies on TV have for him. Sure he was corrupt, but probably no more so than is par for Thai politicians from any party; sure he could be ruthless, but his "war on drugs" was immensely popular with the Thais, only the "bleeding-heart farang liberals" seem to be concerned by it - you never hear of any Thai mentioning it in a negative way. Could it be that his real fault was that he didn't actually despise the people from the North, or treat them like scum (I believe the accepted word is "morons" on TV!)?

[harry1]

well said,,,think the guys who want bloodshed shoul nip down south and lend a hand,,,been peaceful protest so far but think the goverment has many faces,,as most goverments do

[rixalex]

You want facts? Where have you been?

Fact: a lot of farangs here hate the red shirts with a passion, and this observation is the topic of the thread

Let me tackle your first "fact". If by red shirts you simply mean Thaksin then i think your fact stands; but if by red shirts you mean the thousands of mostly rural poor people he is using to fight his war for money and power then i don't think there's any truth there whatsoever - who would hate them and for what? As pawns they are victims as much as anyone else in all this.

[dobadoy]

Right - Abhisit represents business as usual - as you say, a continuation of the lurks and perks to those many undeserving people who think they are a God given right.

Abhisit's business as usual to your average rural (majority) Thai means more of the same too: grinding poverty and humiliation. The rural people love Thaksin because he broke with tradition and gave them tangible yet simple benefits like the right to see a doctor for 30 Baht, microcredit and development schemes. Things that we in the West take for granted but were hitherto unheard of in Thailand. Simple things that the rural people could undserstand, and that made their lives so much better. Sure, Thaksin was corrupt too, but like you say, who in Thai politics isn't? Why single out just one person with so much focussed hatred, while ignoring all the others?

The rural people haven't forgotten what Thaksin did for them, as we can see. Why on earth do so many foreigners here so violently hate the concept of a man whose policies helped people who have nothing, supporting instead a regime that is making it progressively harder for foreigners to live in Thailand?

The whole concept of supporting an organisation that seeks to get you thrown out of a place you call home is rather bizarre, and I really can't relate to it.

Yes, Thaksin did some good for the poor, and that was worthy, should be commended, and is absolutely irrelevant. He was kickd out because he was becoming dictatorial, as anyone who remembers the daily lawsuits, the MPs and their girlfriends 'falling' out of their balconies, the extra-judicial killing of 3,500 uncharged and unconvicted Thai nationals, the aggression in the South, the harm done to state enterprises in favour of his own private interests, the lending of money to the Burma's corrupt regime..oh the list goes on...but hey...a lot of people on low incomes have not got credit cards (and credit card bills), so all is forgiven.

Agreed - politicians as a class of human beings are corrupt and self-serving, and if they can get away with it they will. Thaksin's fault was greed - he wanted to cut out everyone except his chosen few. And you support this guy becauses of the 30Baht healthcare scheme - great scheme, but hardly a get-out-of-jail free card for every sin he's ever commitedd.

Wake up.

[rixalex]

Glad to hear that your loathing is not confined to poor Thais, you seem to detest anybody who doesn't fit your definition of an upper middle class snob. I bet you think that your sh*t doesn't stink!

Of course, some would say that all those over-paid expats working here in LOS are just as guilty of exploiting the poor as Thailand"s own elite are.

I've often wondered what exactly Thaksin did to earn him the utter hatred that the Bangkok elites and their allies on TV have for him. Sure he was corrupt, but probably no more so than is par for Thai politicians from any party; sure he could be ruthless, but his "war on drugs" was immensely popular with the Thais, only the "bleeding-heart farang liberals" seem to be concerned by it - you never hear of any Thai mentioning it in a negative way. Could it be that his real fault was that he didn't actually despise the people from the North, or treat them like scum (I believe the accepted word is "morons" on TV!)?

Nothing screams apologist like "sure, such and such was <insert criminal activity> but <insert justification> "

[catmac]

Glad to hear that your loathing is not confined to poor Thais, you seem to detest anybody who doesn't fit your definition of an upper middle class snob. I bet you think that your sh*t doesn't stink!

Of course, some would say that all those over-paid expats working here in LOS are just as guilty of exploiting the poor as Thailand"s own elite are.

I've often wondered what exactly Thaksin did to earn him the utter hatred that the Bangkok elites and their allies on TV have for him. Sure he was corrupt, but probably no more so than is par for Thai politicians from any party; sure he could be ruthless, but his "war on drugs" was immensely popular with the Thais, only the "bleeding-heart farang liberals" seem to be concerned by it - you never hear of any Thai mentioning it in a negative way. Could it be that his real fault was that he didn't actually despise the people from the North, or treat them like scum (I believe the accepted word is "morons" on TV!)?

Nothing screams apologist like "sure, such and such was <insert criminal activity> but <insert justification> "

I would say that nothing screams apologist more than to believe that your side are perfect, and those you dislike are the devil incarnate!

Point 1 - do you really believe that the likes of Newin (on whose support Abhisit relies for his Parliamentary majority) are lily-white and not corrupt?

Point 2 - even Sondhi, through his Manager Group media outlets, was a ferverent supporter of Thaksin's War on Drugs.

Funny that we never hear a word of criticism of the ongoing culture of corruption and elitism from some of the Thaksin haters, just a repetition of "Thaksin did this" and "Thaksin did that". Anybody could be forgiven for thinking that Thaksin actually invented corruption and violence.

And, as always, you fail to respond to my suggestion that Thaksin's real crime was not his corruption or his egotism, but his refusal to share the Bangkok ideal that the poor are worthless, and are fit only to be exploited.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

ClockworkOrange: Thank YOU!! You're one of the select few to put actual arguments forward instead of sniping and name-calling, and keep this forum from going South completely.

[Ulysses G.]

Many of us think that Thaksin was a horrible PM. To me and many others he seemed to be egotistical, greedy, obsessed with control and money, authoritarian and corrupt.

Where oh where did all those good ole' boy leaders like Bonhard, Chavelit and Suchina go?

[isanbirder]

Many of us think that Thaksin was a horrible PM. To me and many others he seemed to be egotistical, greedy, obsessed with control and money, authoritarian and corrupt.

Where oh where did all those good ole' boy leaders like Bonhard, Chavelit and Suchina go?

What! Banharn who reintroduced B.10 notes... and was pictured next to the 6 foot plus Goh Chok Thong whenever possible, logger Chavalit, and the unspeakable Suchinda... rather you than me! (Spelling, G.!)

Edited April 6, 2010 by isanbirder

[wintermute]

I've often wondered what exactly Thaksin did to earn him the utter hatred that the Bangkok elites and their allies on TV have for him. Sure he was corrupt, but probably no more so than is par for Thai politicians from any party; sure he could be ruthless, but his "war on drugs" was immensely popular with the Thais, only the "bleeding-heart farang liberals" seem to be concerned by it - you never hear of any Thai mentioning it in a negative way. Could it be that his real fault was that he didn't actually despise the people from the North, or treat them like scum (I believe the accepted word is "morons" on TV!)?

The middle/upper-middle class Thais largely follow whatever the elites tell them to do. Monkey see monkey do. Thaksin fell out of favor with the powerful because he controlled too much money, was not willing to cut them in on some of the major telecom deals, and tried to subvert old ruling families in favor of new government reform. It was a classic case of "new money" versus "old money" in politics. Except it blew up into a much larger issues.

Now consider the specific power blocs behind the PAD. There are a lot of things about the PAD that you absolutely can't talk about on these forums. There's a reason why they are in charge and will be in charge in the near future regardless of the outcome of the protests. There's also a reason why they were given a free pass to do things like close down airports.

Edited April 6, 2010 by wintermute

[Tolley]

I've often wondered what exactly Thaksin did to earn him the utter hatred that the Bangkok elites and their allies on TV have for him. Sure he was corrupt, but probably no more so than is par for Thai politicians from any party; sure he could be ruthless, but his "war on drugs" was immensely popular with the Thais, only the "bleeding-heart farang liberals" seem to be concerned by it - you never hear of any Thai mentioning it in a negative way. Could it be that his real fault was that he didn't actually despise the people from the North, or treat them like scum (I believe the accepted word is "morons" on TV!)?

The middle/upper-middle class Thais largely follow whatever the elites tell them to do. Monkey see monkey do. Thaksin fell out of favor with the powerful because he controlled too much money, was not willing to cut them in on some of the major telecom deals, and tried to subvert old ruling families in favor of new government reform. It was a classic case of "new money" versus "old money" in politics. Except it blew up into a much larger issues.

Now consider the specific power blocs behind the PAD. There are a lot of things about the PAD that you absolutely can't talk about on these forums. There's a reason why they are in charge and will be in charge in the near future regardless of the outcome of the protests. There's also a reason why they were given a free pass to do things like close down airports.

You are correct. Unfortunately a lot of people just can't seem to see the wood for the trees.

Getting rid of Thaksin has done nothing to move Thailand in any positive direction. Amazing how some people are so easily conned.

The current ongoing instability is largely due to the PAD and its 'influential' supporters taking the law into their own hands via a coup rather than doing it through the ballot box.

They didn't have the numbers and so they took the law into their own hands. They set the precedent and are responsible for the current instability.

They wont hold elections anytime soon either as they know they would lose.

Thaksin haters are missing the big picture and are being conned by the 'other side' who is no better and probably worse than Thaksin and his supporters.

[Flatouthruthefog]

Many of us think that Thaksin was a horrible PM. To me and many others he seemed to be egotistical, greedy, obsessed with control and money, authoritarian and corrupt.

Where oh where did all those good ole' boy leaders like Bonhard, Chavelit and Suchina go?

Well, hate the reds or not, some journalist (and he's a farang) has at last had the wit to interview a Chiang Mai red shirt. And the man seems to be (almost) promising peace in the north. If not in our times.

It just went on the mychiangmai webesite today.

Come on, 'The Notion' why didn't you think of this? Or are you still so Bangkok-centric, unlike your title?