Farang Hatred Of The Reds ?

[RawaiRumper]

Taky.bmpSpot On Gary A. I find that the opined about TV is nothing like what I hear amongst the Farang. I suppose the reason is that TV is overwhelmed by Cauc's whon are not Thai Residents hence greatly misnomered to be Farang... the term Farang applies only to those who really live in Thailand. Oh, sure we hear abnouit Farang tourist but when they go home to their diuscusting jobs in their dioscusting countries they are no longer Farang. I, however, am a Farang and I don't hate red shirts! Edited April 7, 2010 by RawaiRumper

[rixalex]

And you don't have any problem calling people pawns behind their backs. Yet you hold the view that calling them pawns to their faces in rude. So much for having the courage of your convictions.

This has nothing to do with courage. This is what separates adults from children. Grow up.

[jsjohninbkk]

No hatred towards the Reds --- only a hatred towards the actions of the law breaking mob roaming the streets of BKK for almost a month now.

[TAWP]

The strange thing is that many of the red-haters support Islamic terrorists and every other nutjob on the planet, but have no sympathy at all for the poorest people in Thailand - who just want a chance in life. I just don't get it.

What on earth are you talking about?

Are you are saying that it is ok to be racist against some groups, the groups you don't like?

[anotherpeter]

I agree totally that there should be an election, but i don't agree that a minority who have taken to the streets have any right to demand the date of that election. What's democratic about that? Nothing.

The problem is in the precedent that was set. The yellows got away with it - their street protests and airport blockade triggered change outside the normal democratic process of the ballot box. They opened a Pandora's box of mob-rule that has unfortunately torn apart Thailand's fledgeling democracy. Here we are, some years later, and the country is still unable to function normally. Has all this insanity been worth it, just to get rid of Thaksin who could have been voted out a the ballot box anyway?

Holding an election now, and giving Abhisit a mandate would (if Abhisit indeed got elected) cause the reds and Thaksin a massive loss of face and would justify strict measures to get them off the streets. Either way, the result of any election should be respected as the opinion of the general public and whoever the Thai people choose to be their master, even the devil himself, should not be then kicked out of office. Otherwise, this destructive cycle will of course continue indefinitely.

Why is Abhisit so insecure?

Would Thaksin have been voted out? If the elections had been free and fair, that is possible.

He was putting so many of HIS people in charge of things that he controlled nearly everything. The only thing that he didn't control was the army. And that wasn't through lack of trying.

[anotherpeter]

Taky.bmpSpot On Gary A. I find that the opined about TV is nothing like what I hear amongst the Farang. I suppose the reason is that TV is overwhelmed by Cauc's whon are not Thai Residents hence greatly misnomered to be Farang... the term Farang applies only to those who really live in Thailand. Oh, sure we hear abnouit Farang tourist but when they go home to their diuscusting jobs in their dioscusting countries they are no longer Farang. I, however, am a Farang and I don't hate red shirts!

I'm a farang. I don't hate the red shirts. I don't support them, because they want to bring Thaksin back and give him is money back.

Edited April 7, 2010 by anotherpeter

[Insight]

Given that you're all rallied up, here's my response...

The election one has been done ad-infinitum, and is being done again just for good measure, so will skip that one.

The Democrats to term date have had the strongest policy of clean politics since 2001.

By what measure? And besides, policy is just another example of talk. How do you know that they followed it, and that it wasn't just a facade to justify the fact that their position was illegitimate in the first place? Having done tainted deals with people like Newin, whom you concede to be corrupt, what makes you think that clean policy isn't just there to fool people like you?

Can you name one instance where Thaksin, Samak or Somchai took action against corrupt politicians within their own coalition during their entire terms? If this isn't an adequate measure, can you give a more fitting one?

Anti foreigner - Any examples? Can't say I've suffered personally.

The numerous visa and foreign business rule changes don't affect me either, but that doesn't alter the fact that they have affected a great deal of

other foreign people who are trying to call Thailand home. Take a look through the visa and immigration section of this forum.

Can you highlight one law specifically which is genuinely xenophobic and not in the interest of the country? Are you talking about an increase in visa fees?

[clockworkorange]

You are lying now. Quote me please. The part where I said that I supported a destructive cycle.

I'm not lying. The meaning of your post below is very clear: the yellows got away with pressuring a government out of office, and so now the reds should also get their way.

This is mob rule. This is supporting the destructive cycle.

The problem is in the precedent that was set. The yellows got away with it - their street protests and airport blockade triggered change outside the normal democratic process of the ballot box. They opened a Pandora's box of mob-rule that has unfortunately torn apart Thailand's fledgeling democracy. Here we are, some years later, and the country is still unable to function normally. Has all this insanity been worth it, just to get rid of Thaksin who could have been voted out a the ballot box anyway?

Holding an election now, and giving Abhisit a mandate would (if Abhisit indeed got elected) cause the reds and Thaksin a massive loss of face and would justify strict measures to get them off the streets. Either way, the result of any election should be respected as the opinion of the general public and whoever the Thai people choose to be their master, even the devil himself, should not be then kicked out of office. Otherwise, this destructive cycle will of course continue indefinitely.

You are fibbing again. You didn't quote what I actually stated, you instead rephrased what I siad completely changing it in the process to support what was a completely baseless accusation. Let's take a quick look at how you twisted things around ...

You accused me of advocating a cycle of violence when I made this observation on the chronology of events thus far:

The problem is in the precedent that was set. The yellows got away with it - their street protests and airport blockade triggered change outside the normal democratic process of the ballot box. They opened a Pandora's box of mob-rule that has unfortunately torn apart Thailand's fledgeling democracy. Here we are, some years later, and the country is still unable to function normally.

I then asked you to quote exactly where in the above statement I advocated a cycle of violence, and you responded by putting forward your own version, coloured with your personal opinion:

the yellows got away with pressuring a government out of office, and so now the reds should also get their way.

Nowhere in my original statement did I say that the reds should get away with anyhthing. All I did was describe a cycle that is plainly obvious, and put forward elections as a way to confirm Abhisit's position as legitimate and defeat the red argument once and for all.

[rixalex]

Nowhere in my original statement did I say that the reds should get away with anyhthing.

All I did was describe a cycle that is plainly obvious, and put forward elections as a way to confirm Abhisit's position as legitimate and defeat the red argument once and for all.

As i already stated, nobody is arguing against elections, the argument is whether a minority group on the streets should be able to force a government to be dissolved before it has served its term. This is the destructive circle to which i am opposed, and to which you support.

[way2muchcoffee]

Nowhere in my original statement did I say that the reds should get away with anyhthing. All I did was describe a cycle that is plainly obvious, and put forward elections as a way to confirm Abhisit's position as legitimate and defeat the red argument once and for all.

And yet you support the demonstrations which is perpetuating the cycle of mob rule. Or do you think the redshirts should disband immediately?

[Ulysses G.]

The strange thing is that many of the red-haters support Islamic terrorists and every other nutjob on the planet, but have no sympathy at all for the poorest people in Thailand - who just want a chance in life. I just don't get it.

What on earth are you talking about?

Are you are saying that it is ok to be racist against some groups, the groups you don't like?

What on earth are you talking about? Where did you get all that from?

[clockworkorange]

Can you highlight one law specifically which is genuinely xenophobic and not in the interest of the country? Are you talking about an increase in visa fees?

No, I'm wondering why on earth so many foreigners in thsi forum support a government that clearly does not have their own interests at heart. Get your facts right. Here are some examples of recent rule changes taken from the visa and immigration forum:

1) Reduction of transit visas to 14 days for surface arrivals

2) Banning back-to-back tourist visas

3) Systematic plugging of all loopholes for visa runners

4) Regular changes of the regulations for retirement and marriage visas, acceptable bank documents, financial requirements and the like, that seem cynically designed for the sole purpose of catching people wrong-footed

5) Syphilis tests for new work permit applications

6) Various crack downs on part foreign owned companies, share structures, paid up capital, crackdown on nomininees, etc

7) Accepting PR applications for four years without approving any and holding people in limbo, having submitted a mountain of documents, with no indication of if or when their applications will ever be approved

8) Subjecting spouses to ever more onerous requirements, including piles of notarized documents, a real language test, DNA tests for their Thai children etc, photos of their living arrangements

9) No new Thai citizenship applications have been approved.

10) Language tests for Ed visa holders

And you still like these guys simply because they target one of a bunch of corrupt politicians as the devil incarnate?

Edited April 7, 2010 by clockworkorange

[clockworkorange]

Nowhere in my original statement did I say that the reds should get away with anyhthing.

All I did was describe a cycle that is plainly obvious, and put forward elections as a way to confirm Abhisit's position as legitimate and defeat the red argument once and for all.

As i already stated, nobody is arguing against elections, the argument is whether a minority group on the streets should be able to force a government to be dissolved before it has served its term. This is the destructive circle to which i am opposed, and to which you support.

Let's try to keep this discussion positive, rather than cluttering up the thread with a 'yes you did', 'no I didn't' pointless exercise in semantics.

We keep agreeing that there should be elections. Good. You concede that all Thai politicians are corrupt. Good. You skirt around the issue of why one corrupt politician should be so vilified, while others such as Newin should be excused. Ho hum, nothing new.

Rather than sqabbling about the semantics of who said what as it relates to our personal opinions, is there anything else of a factual nature that we can discuss while keeping to the point of "Farang Hatred of Reds" topic? If not, then I suggest that we leave it here.

[Insight]

Get your facts right.

Clock is on fire!

1) Reduction of transit visas to 14 days for surface arrivals

2) Banning back-to-back tourist visas

3) Systematic plugging of all loopholes for visa runners

4) Regular changes of the regulations for retirement and marriage visas, acceptable bank documents, financial requirements and the like, that seem cynically designed for the sole purpose of catching people wrong-footed

5) Syphilis tests for new work permit applications

6) Various crack downs on part foreign owned companies, share structures, paid up capital, crackdown on nomininees, etc

7) Accepting PR applications for four years without approving any and holding people in limbo, having submitted a mountain of documents, with no indication of if or when their applications will ever be approved

8) Subjecting spouses to ever more onerous requirements, including piles of notarized documents, a real language test, DNA tests for their Thai children etc, photos of their living arrangements

9) No new Thai citizenship applications have been approved.

10) Language tests for Ed visa holders

And you still like these guys simply because they target one of a bunch of corrupt politicians as the devil incarnate?

None of those rules bother me, or my colleagues, or the people I associate with - business owners (like me), teachers, and retires included.

How many success Thai citizenship applications do you of in your entire time here?

Let's try to keep this discussion positive

Yes, lets

[rixalex]

Let's try to keep this discussion positive, rather than cluttering up the thread with a 'yes you did', 'no I didn't' pointless exercise in semantics.

Agreed.

We keep agreeing that there should be elections. Good. You concede that all Thai politicians are corrupt. Good. You skirt around the issue of why one corrupt politician should be so vilified, while others such as Newin should be excused. Ho hum, nothing new.

Where have i stated that anyone should be excused? I haven't.

They (corrupt politicians) should all face justice in my opinion, but because some of them haven't or won't, isn't a reason to argue that Thaksin should also evade justice. That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Edited April 7, 2010 by rixalex

[rixalex]

1) Reduction of transit visas to 14 days for surface arrivals

2) Banning back-to-back tourist visas

3) Systematic plugging of all loopholes for visa runners

4) Regular changes of the regulations for retirement and marriage visas, acceptable bank documents, financial requirements and the like, that seem cynically designed for the sole purpose of catching people wrong-footed

5) Syphilis tests for new work permit applications

6) Various crack downs on part foreign owned companies, share structures, paid up capital, crackdown on nomininees, etc

7) Accepting PR applications for four years without approving any and holding people in limbo, having submitted a mountain of documents, with no indication of if or when their applications will ever be approved

8) Subjecting spouses to ever more onerous requirements, including piles of notarized documents, a real language test, DNA tests for their Thai children etc, photos of their living arrangements

9) No new Thai citizenship applications have been approved.

10) Language tests for Ed visa holders

And you still like these guys simply because they target one of a bunch of corrupt politicians as the devil incarnate?

None of those rules bother me, or my colleagues, or the people I associate with - business owners (like me), teachers, and retires included.

Yep, a lot of those rule changes (if true) seem quite positive.

[TAWP]

The strange thing is that many of the red-haters support Islamic terrorists and every other nutjob on the planet, but have no sympathy at all for the poorest people in Thailand - who just want a chance in life. I just don't get it.

What on earth are you talking about?

Are you are saying that it is ok to be racist against some groups, the groups you don't like?

What on earth are you talking about? Where did you get all that from?

From the same barrel you scraped up the lie that red haters support Islamic terrorists and 'other nutjobs'.

But please, go ahead and prove it.

[Huey]

Simply put I hate the reds because they are nothing more than the hired thugs of a ousted criminal priminister. AND they are to stupid to even recognize that they are being played. Their gripes are weak and ill founded and they are treating a multi-billion are like he came from the "Struggle" as if these people even had one to begin with. When did they ever rise up on their OWN to have these gripes addressed?

A bunch of storming the capitol for free Sum Tam and red Tshirts.

They disgust me.

[clockworkorange]

Let's try to keep this discussion positive, rather than cluttering up the thread with a 'yes you did', 'no I didn't' pointless exercise in semantics.

Agreed.

We keep agreeing that there should be elections. Good. You concede that all Thai politicians are corrupt. Good. You skirt around the issue of why one corrupt politician should be so vilified, while others such as Newin should be excused. Ho hum, nothing new.

Where have i stated that anyone should be excused? I haven't.

They (corrupt politicians) should all face justice in my opinion, but because some of them haven't or won't, isn't a reason to argue that Thaksin should also evade justice. That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Ah yes, good that you reaffirm that all Thai pollies are corrupt, and that they should all be criminalised and sentenced to jail just like Thaksin. In the interests of fairness, I still can't understand why only Thaksin seems to raise your ire for his corrupt ways though, while other corrupt individuals are exempt from your critique, but let's leave it there.

Rounding all the corrupt pollies up and throwing them in jail sounds all well and good in principle, except that every country needs a functioning government, even a dodgy one, and that corruption is so rife outside political circles that any replacements would likely be just as bad.

Throwing them all n jail is therefore hardly a workable solution. Thailand needs a government, and even a corrupt one is better than none at all. Thailand is actually no different from any other developing country, except that its fledgeling democracy, which although far from perfect was a democracy nonetheless, and would have heralded change for the better in time, has been usurped by a dangerous cycle of mob rule.

So why the vilification of Thaksin, and nobody else??

[clockworkorange]

Simply put I hate the reds because they are nothing more than the hired thugs of a ousted criminal priminister. AND they are to stupid to even recognize that they are being played. Their gripes are weak and ill founded and they are treating a multi-billion are like he came from the "Struggle" as if these people even had one to begin with. When did they ever rise up on their OWN to have these gripes addressed?

A bunch of savages storming the capitol for free Sum Tam and red Tshirts.

They disgust me.

Another slave to the propaganda comes out of the woodwork. Do you read the Nation, by any chance?

[Tod Daniels]

Right - you spotted the elephant in the room. You could be forgiven for thinking that the Dems aren't very good at winning elections these days. They lay themselves wide open to accusations from the reds that the only way for the Dems to get their noses in the trough is to get installed there by influential powers that be, disregarding the will of the people, and by forging alliances with crooks like Newin. SNIP

I see you didn't have a problem when PPP/PTP forged the exact same alliance with (as you so eloquently put it) "crooks like Newin" so that they had a majority and there by the mandate to control the government. ..

FWIW: Samak & Somchai couldn't have had a majority without Newin siding with them either which he did. Just because Abhisit was able to get them to switch how does that negate his mandate to run the government. The "Friends of Newin" are the linchpin in the entire equation.

Before the coup Thaksin himself dissolved the lower house on Feb 24 2006 “paving the way for a mandate by the people” this was what precipitated his downfall. Whether this was due to the yellow protest or to pending cases against TRT who knows, but he sure shot himself in the foot with that move.

In case you don't know how to Google, or even peruse Wikipedia (a suspect source at best but often good for a cursory overview) before you post your obviously superior political take on all things here's some recent history for you;

History of the Democrats POST COUP runs about like this;

December 2007 election

The Democrat Party was left in the opposition after the December 2007 parliamentary election, as Samak Sundaravej of the People's Power Party was able to form a SIX PARTY coalition (Sounds like quite a few noses at the proverbial trough ). In a parliamentary vote on 28 January 2008, Abhisit was defeated by Samak for the post of Prime Minister, receiving 163 votes against 310 votes for Samak.

Following the Constitutional Court of Thailand's removal of Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej in 2008 for vested interests by taking a salary from a cooking show while in the seat of PM, Abhisit lost (AGAIN!! ) as the National Assembly vote for Prime Minister was 163 votes to 298 for Somchai Wongsawat, ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra's brother in law.

On 2 December 2008, the Constitutional Court banned the three government parties for election fraud, including the PPP, thus dissolved the governing coalition and paving the way for a Democrat-led government. The Court also banned Somchai from politics for five years for his involvement in the scandal as one of PPP's executive board member and removed him from office; he was succeeded by a deputy.

After Somchai was removed and the PPP dissolved, MANY MPs defected to the Democrat side thus forging a new alliance. Defectors included MPs from the For Thais Party (Puea Thai, the successor of the PPP), the former Chart Thai Party under Sanan Krachonprasat, the Thais United National Development Party, and the Neutral Democratic Party, and the "Friends of Newin" faction of the former Peoples Power Party. The enlarged Democrat-led coalition was able to endorse Abhisit as Prime Minister. Abhisit became Prime Minister after winning a special vote 235 for Abhisit versus 198 votes for Pracha Promnok in parliament on 15 December 2008.

Even rudimentary math show's Abhisit has been prime minister since only mid Dec 2008 and NOT for many years as some errant posters allude to.

Last time I did math a year and 4 months equaled just about 16 months.. Then again some posters may use that “new math”..

I don't hate the reds, and think they have just as valid gripes about things as the dark bluez, the yellowz, the pinkz, and what ever other color shirt a person wants to wear.

What I don't like is sock puppet foreigners spouting spoon-fed rhetoric about the injustice of it all without really understand the political machinations that got us here now.

[My Friend Same]

I dont hate the reds in any way shape or form. I wish that Thaksin could have provided some education for these poor people instead of blinding their minds with science. The reds are good people who simply need education. I have a secret feeling that the best thing that could ever happen to this country I love would be to divide it into 2 coutries. Issan could be its own country!!!! now this is a great idea. The rest of Thailand could be itself without all the craziness. I know Bangkok and the South would love this awesome idea. I love my southern wife and she is appalled by the reds doing what they are doing. She wants relaxation and non control by a Bill Gates figure who uses pawns to amass an insane fortune.

[Gary A]

Why would anyone want to muddy the water with facts? Facts will confuse and nullify our astute political expert opinions.

[Ulysses G.]

When did they ever rise up on their OWN to have these gripes addressed?

Aren't you the guy with a picture of a revolutionary violent criminal for an avatar? Thaksin has done a lot more for the poor than Huey ever did.

[rixalex]

Ah yes, good that you reaffirm that all Thai pollies are corrupt, and that they should all be criminalised and sentenced to jail just like Thaksin. In the interests of fairness, I still can't understand why only Thaksin seems to raise your ire for his corrupt ways though, while other corrupt individuals are exempt from your critique, but let's leave it there.

So, in the interest of fairness if i want to have a go at Thaksin, i must also have a pop at all of the other corrupt politicians? Seems like a bit of a bizarre way of looking at it. Thaksin is by no means the only one who raises my ire, he just happens to be the topic of conversation. Start a thread about someone like Newin or Sondhi and i'll happily tell you what i think about them. I don't think however it's necessary to mention how bad they are everytime we talk about Thaksin's crimes, do you?

[thaimite]

Why all this discussion about Thai democracy.

It should be obvious to all that Thai democracy is the best that money can buy

[Gary A]

While we are speculating, I'll say the Abhisit would not be the Prime minister without Newin. Why did Newin change coats? I speculate the the democrats had enough on him that he could either change coats or go to jail. That's the way things work in Thai politics.

[SpoliaOpima]

You must not be living in Bangkok, OP. They've taken my neighbourhood hostage the last few days, inhibiting me and a lot people from going to and from our homes and places of work. When you engender a climate of terror in which ordinary people fear being attacked like the BMA workers who were only trying to service the portable toilets supplied by the city, or the car full of residents who were beaten for trying to drive, not to mention the fear of M79 rounds and homemade bombs, you are no longer holding a "peaceful" demonstration in my opinion.

It ain't just farangs hating the Reds. My rough estimate is that at least two out of three Bangkokians hate them as well. That includes all of my Thai family and friends.

Just read you post after sending mine.

I rest my case

Your post made no sense. Most certainly it did not address the points he made.

Edited April 7, 2010 by SpoliaOpima

[SpoliaOpima]

When did they ever rise up on their OWN to have these gripes addressed?

Aren't you the guy with a picture of a revolutionary violent criminal for an avatar? Thaksin has done a lot more for the poor than Huey ever did.

I think that's a pretty questionable claim. The Black Panthers's Free Breakfast for School Children Program fed over 10,000 children every day.

Not that the means justified the ends, with regard to the Black Panthers. Nor for the Reds.

More relevant to compare Abhisit with Thaksin. Abhisit has accomplished substantially more to help ensure a better future for poverty-stricken Thais in less then one term than T did in all his time. If you aren't already away of it, you're not keeping up.

[SpoliaOpima]

You are lying now. Quote me please. The part where I said that I supported a destructive cycle.

I'm not lying. The meaning of your post below is very clear: the yellows got away with pressuring a government out of office, and so now the reds should also get their way.

This is mob rule. This is supporting the destructive cycle.

The problem is in the precedent that was set. The yellows got away with it - their street protests and airport blockade triggered change outside the normal democratic process of the ballot box. They opened a Pandora's box of mob-rule that has unfortunately torn apart Thailand's fledgeling democracy. Here we are, some years later, and the country is still unable to function normally. Has all this insanity been worth it, just to get rid of Thaksin who could have been voted out a the ballot box anyway?

Holding an election now, and giving Abhisit a mandate would (if Abhisit indeed got elected) cause the reds and Thaksin a massive loss of face and would justify strict measures to get them off the streets. Either way, the result of any election should be respected as the opinion of the general public and whoever the Thai people choose to be their master, even the devil himself, should not be then kicked out of office. Otherwise, this destructive cycle will of course continue indefinitely.

In fact the yellows were far more violently treated than the Reds have been, thus far. I supposed clockworkorange has forgot bloody Oct 7.