Thai 'Red Shirts' Pledge More Protests After Court Ruling

[siampolee]

educating poor people not to succumb to vote buying.

Interesting comment.

The dissolution of the T.R.T was due in the main to VOTE BUYING

Educating the less well off !!!!

Thaksins regime selected their own elite who were sent off to foreign universities, yet the poor language abilities and the inability to cope with another culture turned the dream into a nightmare.

Of course if one has the money one could always attend '' The Shinwatra University.'' Surely with Thaksins professed concern for the lower class the university would be accepting the ordinary man and woman from the lower classe free of charge thus empowering them to help others in the future.

No it was a university founded on a financial concern basis not out of concern for the lower orders.

A delightful quote from another English language source in the fourth estate today from a red Shirt supporter who is a street foodstall food vendor.

''I want Thaksin to come back because we all had money in our pocket when he was here before.''

However she was actually bemoaning the fact that the red Shirt Brigade protest had cut her income to 500 baht a day.

Indeed a mind boggling comment .

Edited April 6, 2010 by siampolee

[JacknDanny]

people in North Dakota's vote is much less important than that of say New York

Not a student of US politics, but IMO this would only apply in presidential election. Small population states have much smaller numbers of voters per representative, and all states are entitled to 2 senators regardless of size. surely this would help balance the equation?

You might want to check out the US House of Representatives and their powers, the number per state vs. the senate.

Who gives a crap???

This is about Thailand!!!!

[johndpoole]

people in North Dakota's vote is much less important than that of say New York

Not a student of US politics, but IMO this would only apply in presidential election. Small population states have much smaller numbers of voters per representative, and all states are entitled to 2 senators regardless of size. surely this would help balance the equation?

Well as far as 'house of representatives' no,

there is ONE rep for each DISTRICT of people.

The current size of 435 seats means one member represents on average about 650,000 people.

"Gerrymandering" comes from people redrawing district bounderies to increase a voting block one way or another.

So, while a lower populace state has fewer reps... ( Delaware & Vermonet 1 each)

but EACH individual citizen is still getting equal representation in House of Reps. as ANY OTHER state's individuals

But each STATE still has equal senators in the Senate 2 out of 100 like every other state.

And since presidential elections are by electoral collage

Electors, with constituent numbers approximately equivalent to representatives, are chosen by popular vote,

BUT those votes are voted as a block for the state, depending on who wins.

If the people decide on a presidential candidate for that state,

their NATIONAL power to elect is 1 in 50 same as any state.

It is an interesting system, but occasionally ignores the purely popular numbers.

Hope this helps.

The Constitution grants the House exclusive power to initiate revenue bills, to impeach officials, and to elect the president in case of an Electoral College deadlock. (North Dakota has 1 while New York has 29)

I am by no means saying the system in the US is right or the best but a good point to realize is that regardless of how the system works (see Bush 2000 election) people expect the government to uphold the law and to use whatever force is needed to maintain peace and order. This unruly law breaking Red Mob causing chaos in the capitol would never be tolerated. On the other side, a president would never agree to hold elections early regardless of his popularity or how he came to power (again See: Bush).

Edited April 6, 2010 by johndpoole

[johndpoole]

people in North Dakota's vote is much less important than that of say New York

Not a student of US politics, but IMO this would only apply in presidential election. Small population states have much smaller numbers of voters per representative, and all states are entitled to 2 senators regardless of size. surely this would help balance the equation?

You might want to check out the US House of Representatives and their powers, the number per state vs. the senate.

Who gives a crap???

This is about Thailand!!!!

Is Thailand's Reds not saying they want democracy? Is the US not the most recognized and powerful democracy in the World? Is the US not a much more advanced society than Thailand? Wouldn't you think the Thai people would look to other countries and how they handle democracy to stop seeing coup after coup occur?

Sounds like the Reds want their own kind of special democracy were only their views matter. Their views are they want the Taksin's gov't back in power regardless that they were legally forced out under the rules of the constitution.

They are not looking to change or create laws in any democratic or legal fashion but simply are using illegal and threatening means to get their way.

Edited April 6, 2010 by johndpoole

[OzMick]

people in North Dakota's vote is much less important than that of say New York

Not a student of US politics, but IMO this would only apply in presidential election. Small population states have much smaller numbers of voters per representative, and all states are entitled to 2 senators regardless of size. surely this would help balance the equation?

Well as far as 'house of representatives' no,

there is ONE rep for each DISTRICT of people.

The current size of 435 seats means one member represents on average about 650,000 people.

"Gerrymandering" comes from people redrawing district bounderies to increase a voting block one way or another.

So, while a lower populace state has fewer reps... ( Delaware & Vermonet 1 each)

but EACH individual citizen is still getting equal representation in House of Reps. as ANY OTHER state's individuals

But each STATE still has equal senators in the Senate 2 out of 100 like every other state.

And since presidential elections are by electoral collage

Electors, with constituent numbers approximately equivalent to representatives, are chosen by popular vote,

BUT those votes are voted as a block for the state, depending on who wins.

If the people decide on a presidential candidate for that state,

their NATIONAL power to elect is 1 in 50 same as any state.

It is an interesting system, but occasionally ignores the purely popular numbers.

Hope this helps.

Consider me more educated. In oz, some country fed reps have huge electorates, most of WA the largest state is 1 electorate, N Q'land is also huge; but still have less voters than major city electorates, down to about half I think (don't quote me on that ratio!)

anybody know how the local system works? (just to get back on topic)

Edited April 6, 2010 by OzMick

[Thai at Heart]

people in North Dakota's vote is much less important than that of say New York

Not a student of US politics, but IMO this would only apply in presidential election. Small population states have much smaller numbers of voters per representative, and all states are entitled to 2 senators regardless of size. surely this would help balance the equation?

You might want to check out the US House of Representatives and their powers, the number per state vs. the senate.

Who gives a crap???

This is about Thailand!!!!

Is Thailand's Reds not saying they want democracy? Is the US not the most recognized and powerful democracy in the World? Is the US not a much more advanced society than Thailand? Wouldn't you think the Thai people would look to other countries and how they handle democracy to stop seeing coup after coup occur?

Sounds like the Reds want their own kind of special democracy were only their views matter. There views are they want the Taksin gov't back in power regardless they they were legally forced out under the rules of the constitution.

They are not looking to change or create laws in any democratic or legal fashion but simply are using illegal and threatening means to get their way.

Thailand appears to want it's own type of democracy, which in some way encompasses the overt possibility of a coup at any time.

This is why when people stand up and say "Democracy" won't work in Thailand, or Asia, it is because they don't understand the sacrifices that are necessary to get a democracy to work. You can't have a democracy with the army not answering to the civilian government of the day. Pure and simple.

As for Thailand actively wanting to learn from other countries about how their democratic structures succeed. No one will ever admit that they probably should look outside for inspiration.

[animatic]

Well it looks like this pledge will be hard to keep.

Abhisit is on the move.

[Thai at Heart]

Announcement on the TV right now.

All those stars don't fit on his shoulders.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Thai at Heart

[Jingthing]

THE NATION: Jatuporn announced as seen on PTV: "If we can't live in peace in this country, let be it."

Sounds pretty revolutionary IMHO. Reds have got a three week stand-off, along with the events of last Songkran having over their reputation.

Lets support the reasonable peace loving Abhisit government from these Maoist violent "class war" revolutionaries. Thailand needs reform, PEACEFULLY. These guys are bad news and will only bring misery.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Jingthing

[Netfan]

"A large group of red-shirt protesters have surrounded the Democrat Party headquarters, threatening to storm the building if they are forbidden to lead a convoy through 11 key routes in Bangkok today. They also threatened to invade the PM's residence as well."

Peaceful. Can't wait to hear the rationalizing from the supporters of this "democratic" movement.

[animatic]

"We are ready to fight and die here," senior Red Nattawut Saikuar said with a raised fist.

"If Abhisit is ready, we are ready. We have no plan to retreat and return home empty-handed," he said.

Not exactly the words of a stable mind IMO.

They have spouted this violent rhetoric so long that can't back away from it.

Oh yes, lose of face if they back track... DUH... die with honor, ya think?

One wonders how many have died here over face issues.

Edited April 6, 2010 by animatic

[Insight]

"We are ready to fight and die here," senior Red Nattawut Saikuar said with a raised fist.

"If Abhisit is ready, we are ready. We have no plan to retreat and return home empty-handed," he said.

Not exactly the words of a stable mind IMO.

They have spouted this violent rhetoric so long that can't back away from it.

Oh yes, lose of face if they back track... DUH... die with honor, ya think?

One wonders how many have died here over face issues.

Kwanchai doesn't seem to mind going home empty handed

(unless it's a diversion, which it probably is)

[somo]

I wish all the ignorant contributors here who claim that all the reds are just paid to be demontrate would stop making things up.

I know that in my village they are having to harvest their crops early to finance trips to Bangkok to lend their support.

You can call them ignorant or stupid but they do have genuine feelings that they are getting a rough deal from the powers that be.

Just the fact they have maintained the demos for 3 weeks show there is genuine commitment.

Please stop criticising them for their lack of sophistication. Sure many have limited education but that is the result of years of Bangkok elite governance and not their fault.

Just remember that at their height the yellows could get 20,000 on the street for just a few days these reds have maintained far higher numbers for 3 weeks and not closed down any airports! They may be uneducated but they are not stupid and I find it disgusting that so many so called educated farangs in this forum think they know better an dismiss their complaints out of hand.

I totally agree with what you say. In my village people have also been getting their crops in early to help finance their journey to Bangkok to show their support. Others, who cannot go, have made a small donation to help with the cost of fuel and food. They believe that they have genuine grievances that are being ignored. They also believe that demonstratig in Bangkok is the only way they will get redress.

Whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant. Accept the fact that our opinion does not count. Even the poorly educated people in my village can express their disagreement without being rude or offensive. That is something some posters in this forum are incapable of doing.

The people in your village must not be too informed or smart ...

This was taken in Udon and they were handing out petrol/diesel money to get to Bangkok and doing it qite openly. Nothing wrong with that. The 2000 baht would hardly cover a one way trip to Bangkok for a pickup loaded with maybe a dozen people.

Perhaps you would think it fairer for only those with money be aloud to demonstrate and the poor denied the chance.

This is nothing to to do with the absurd claims that everyone is earning 700 baht/day for strolling around Bangkok

[traderjm]

This was taken in Udon and they were handing out petrol/diesel money to get to Bangkok and doing it qite openly. Nothing wrong with that. The 2000 baht would hardly cover a one way trip to Bangkok for a pickup loaded with maybe a dozen people.

Perhaps you would think it fairer for only those with money be aloud to demonstrate and the poor denied the chance.

This is nothing to to do with the absurd claims that everyone is earning 700 baht/day for strolling around Bangkok

I have never seen anyone claim that EVERYBODY is being paid 700 per day, perhaps you can point to your reference material?

I can tell you factually first hand that the REDS have been offering 500 per day for those living in BKK to come out and join the "party" (their words not mine) on the weekends. As they have been to two locations of my company in BKK and asked my staff to join in. Some took them up on it the first week, why not an extra 1k for a weekend of partying, but only one or two on the second weekend and nobody that is talking about for last weekend.

Someone being PAID to protest, vs. paid expense money is entirely different. I have no issue with gas money being covered for those that truly believe in the cause and understand it.. more power to them... but if they are the ones that are now breaking the laws they too need to be dealt with, via a firm hand.

[johndpoole]

500 baht was the going rate at last years riot according to Thaksin ...

[SomTumTiger]

It's amazing how the pundits on here keep underestimating Abhisit time and again. Yet 16 months and counting, he is still PM, and still running the show. I know it drives Rainman crazy, so it must be a good thing!

[shawndoc]

I have never seen anyone claim that EVERYBODY is being paid 700 per day, perhaps you can point to your reference material?

I'm not going to dig it up, but there have been plenty of people on here claiming their girlfriend/wife/maid/employee was offered anywhere from 500 to 3000 baht to join the protest (I think the 3000 was someone for someone in Pattaya to come to Bangkok for the weekend).

And if you've seen my posts on here, you know I'm anything but a supporter of the reds.

[somo]

I am sure there are individual cases of money changing hands and the yellow shirts used the same sort of incentives.

However if it was just a matter of money and not genuine greivances then the solution would be simple. Just pay them to go home.

The shops are losing something like a billion baht a day in business so just give them half and the problem will go away.

The trouble is the reds wouldn't take it. They are proud and cannot be bought by those they feel are bad people.

[johndpoole]

It's amazing how the pundits on here keep underestimating Abhisit time and again. Yet 16 months and counting, he is still PM, and still running the show. I know it drives Rainman crazy, so it must be a good thing!

If he intends to remain the PM and plans on having the election in 9-months then he better do something now to show he is capable of keeping peace and maintaining control over the capitol let alone the entire country.

[rainman]

It's amazing how the pundits on here keep underestimating Abhisit time and again. Yet 16 months and counting, he is still PM, and still running the show. I know it drives Rainman crazy, so it must be a good thing!

Everyone can hold onto power at all cost, but it's an entirely different thing to keep your country's people happy and provide equal opportunities for them. He's been unable to do so for 16 months and counting.

[RegularReader]

It's amazing how the pundits on here keep underestimating Abhisit time and again. Yet 16 months and counting, he is still PM, and still running the show. I know it drives Rainman crazy, so it must be a good thing!

Everyone can hold onto power at all cost, but it's an entirely different thing to keep your country's people happy and provide equal opportunities for them. He's been unable to do so for 16 months and counting.

Well that's not a bad innings by Thai standards. Thaksin was only all "sunshine & light" for about the same amount of time during his 5 years of dictatorship...whoops, I mean power, oh wrong again, I mean, time as PM. Mostly for the rest of the time, it was spent shoring up his skullduggery, sanctioning (turning a blind eye to)the drug wars; inflaming the troubles in the south and avoiding court cases based on his non-transparent and conflicting business interests. So if you want your hero back go right ahead - but Thailand won't go right ahead and that's the sad thing.

[ChiangMaiThai]

Anyone else watching this Farang on stage at Rachaprasong? David Cock from Brazil. Seriously, why would you get involved - publicly anyway.

[OzMick]

I am sure there are individual cases of money changing hands and the yellow shirts used the same sort of incentives.

However if it was just a matter of money and not genuine greivances then the solution would be simple. Just pay them to go home.

The shops are losing something like a billion baht a day in business so just give them half and the problem will go away.

The trouble is the reds wouldn't take it. They are proud and cannot be bought by those they feel are bad people.

[traderjm]

I have never seen anyone claim that EVERYBODY is being paid 700 per day, perhaps you can point to your reference material?

I'm not going to dig it up, but there have been plenty of people on here claiming their girlfriend/wife/maid/employee was offered anywhere from 500 to 3000 baht to join the protest (I think the 3000 was someone for someone in Pattaya to come to Bangkok for the weekend).

And if you've seen my posts on here, you know I'm anything but a supporter of the reds.

Never claimed you were a RED shirt supporter only asking where you saw somebody/anybody claiming that EVERYBODY is being paid 700 or more per day, everyday.

I know many many people first hand that were offered and accepted 500 baht per day, for weekend work only.. of course the longer this goes on and the more dangerous it gets less and less feel the money is worth it.. no doubt there is a core that for whatever their reasons are not being paid nor do they need to, but to believe that this is NOT about money in varying degrees to everybody involves is rather naive...

[Netfan]

It's amazing how the pundits on here keep underestimating Abhisit time and again. Yet 16 months and counting, he is still PM, and still running the show. I know it drives Rainman crazy, so it must be a good thing!

Everyone can hold onto power at all cost, but it's an entirely different thing to keep your country's people happy and provide equal opportunities for them. He's been unable to do so for 16 months and counting.

Uhh, happiness and equal opportunities for all Thais? How about when he said any village that didnt vote for him would not get any money for projects? You do know there is a southern part of Thailand too, right? How equally did he treat the people from the south? Have you noticed that when he's able to call in he addresses the "people of the north and northeast", not the people of Thailand? He is a divisive figure.

[geriatrickid]

Well that's not a bad innings by Thai standards. Thaksin was only all "sunshine & light" for about the same amount of time during his 5 years of dictatorship...whoops, I mean power, oh wrong again, I mean, time as PM. Mostly for the rest of the time, it was spent shoring up his skullduggery, sanctioning (turning a blind eye to)the drug wars; inflaming the troubles in the south and avoiding court cases based on his non-transparent and conflicting business interests. So if you want your hero back go right ahead - but Thailand won't go right ahead and that's the sad thing.

Why do you lie and distort events? You use the expression dictatorship, yet Mr. Thaksin won his elections. The process may not have been perfect, but compared to other Thai elections it was legit.

Turning a blind eye to the drug wars? The drug cartels were trying to carve chunks of territory out of Thailand. The corruption they had sown had poisoned the judiciary, the police and the army. Look at Mexico today if you want to understand what Thaksin's intervention avoided. I defy you to go and tell the Mexican government to deal with the rogue military units, and corrupt police officers using your alternative strategy. The current situation in Mexico parallels what was underway in Thailand.

Inflaming the south? What part of the political process do you not understand? The South was under de facto army rule. The army does not consider itself as accountable to an elected government. Any government in Thailand, including Abhisit's needs the agreement and the support of the army to engage the south. That is the political reality. The vigilantes doing their night killings and beatings are following the same m.o. as seen in latin american countries that had military dictatorships.

Ok, you dislike Thaksin. Fine. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Bless you. Just say you don't like the man and leave out the lies and bullsh*t. Lots of people in Thaivisa dislike him too, but at least they don't invent pathetic excuses.

The fact is that you don't really give a dam_n about the Thais that suffered in the drug war do you? You don't care about the people in the south either. However, it makes you feel good to get on your high horse and bleat on about how bad things are. Tell you what, volunteer at a drug rehab centre, or a school in the south. You can put your gushing concern to work. You won't, because it's all words with the holier than thou contingent and you use these victims as pawns in your political rhetoric. What have you ever done to help these people except empty political hate speech? Climb back on your barstool and drink your Chang please.

[rainman]

It's amazing how the pundits on here keep underestimating Abhisit time and again. Yet 16 months and counting, he is still PM, and still running the show. I know it drives Rainman crazy, so it must be a good thing!

Everyone can hold onto power at all cost, but it's an entirely different thing to keep your country's people happy and provide equal opportunities for them. He's been unable to do so for 16 months and counting.

Uhh, happiness and equal opportunities for all Thais? How about when he said any village that didnt vote for him would not get any money for projects? You do know there is a southern part of Thailand too, right? How equally did he treat the people from the south? Have you noticed that when he's able to call in he addresses the "people of the north and northeast", not the people of Thailand? He is a divisive figure.

Do you have a credible source for your claims? And by the way, Chavalit mentioned giving Pattani their own state within Thailand not too long ago, which would surely help reduce the violence in the South. I can't ever remember Abhisit saying anything like this.

[rainman]

Well that's not a bad innings by Thai standards. Thaksin was only all "sunshine & light" for about the same amount of time during his 5 years of dictatorship...whoops, I mean power, oh wrong again, I mean, time as PM. Mostly for the rest of the time, it was spent shoring up his skullduggery, sanctioning (turning a blind eye to)the drug wars; inflaming the troubles in the south and avoiding court cases based on his non-transparent and conflicting business interests. So if you want your hero back go right ahead - but Thailand won't go right ahead and that's the sad thing.

Why do you lie and distort events? You use the expression dictatorship, yet Mr. Thaksin won his elections. The process may not have been perfect, but compared to other Thai elections it was legit.

Turning a blind eye to the drug wars? The drug cartels were trying to carve chunks of territory out of Thailand. The corruption they had sown had poisoned the judiciary, the police and the army. Look at Mexico today if you want to understand what Thaksin's intervention avoided. I defy you to go and tell the Mexican government to deal with the rogue military units, and corrupt police officers using your alternative strategy. The current situation in Mexico parallels what was underway in Thailand.

Inflaming the south? What part of the political process do you not understand? The South was under de facto army rule. The army does not consider itself as accountable to an elected government. Any government in Thailand, including Abhisit's needs the agreement and the support of the army to engage the south. That is the political reality. The vigilantes doing their night killings and beatings are following the same m.o. as seen in latin american countries that had military dictatorships.

Ok, you dislike Thaksin. Fine. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Bless you. Just say you don't like the man and leave out the lies and bullsh*t. Lots of people in Thaivisa dislike him too, but at least they don't invent pathetic excuses.

The fact is that you don't really give a dam_n about the Thais that suffered in the drug war do you? You don't care about the people in the south either. However, it makes you feel good to get on your high horse and bleat on about how bad things are. Tell you what, volunteer at a drug rehab centre, or a school in the south. You can put your gushing concern to work. You won't, because it's all words with the holier than thou contingent and you use these victims as pawns in your political rhetoric. What have you ever done to help these people except empty political hate speech? Climb back on your barstool and drink your Chang please.

Well said. My belief is also that Thailand never had a choice between an un-corrupt government or a corrupt government, but rather between a corrupt government that does something for its poor people and a corrupt government that doesn't.

[traderjm]

Well said. My belief is also that Thailand never had a choice between an un-corrupt government or a corrupt government, but rather between a corrupt government that does something for its poor people and a corrupt government that doesn't.

I guess that just shows how completely out of touch and blinded you are by all the RED propaganda...

[RegularReader]

Well that's not a bad innings by Thai standards. Thaksin was only all "sunshine & light" for about the same amount of time during his 5 years of dictatorship...whoops, I mean power, oh wrong again, I mean, time as PM. Mostly for the rest of the time, it was spent shoring up his skullduggery, sanctioning (turning a blind eye to)the drug wars; inflaming the troubles in the south and avoiding court cases based on his non-transparent and conflicting business interests. So if you want your hero back go right ahead - but Thailand won't go right ahead and that's the sad thing.

Why do you lie and distort events? You use the expression dictatorship, yet Mr. Thaksin won his elections. The process may not have been perfect, but compared to other Thai elections it was legit.

Turning a blind eye to the drug wars? The drug cartels were trying to carve chunks of territory out of Thailand. The corruption they had sown had poisoned the judiciary, the police and the army. Look at Mexico today if you want to understand what Thaksin's intervention avoided. I defy you to go and tell the Mexican government to deal with the rogue military units, and corrupt police officers using your alternative strategy. The current situation in Mexico parallels what was underway in Thailand.

Inflaming the south? What part of the political process do you not understand? The South was under de facto army rule. The army does not consider itself as accountable to an elected government. Any government in Thailand, including Abhisit's needs the agreement and the support of the army to engage the south. That is the political reality. The vigilantes doing their night killings and beatings are following the same m.o. as seen in latin american countries that had military dictatorships.

Ok, you dislike Thaksin. Fine. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Bless you. Just say you don't like the man and leave out the lies and bullsh*t. Lots of people in Thaivisa dislike him too, but at least they don't invent pathetic excuses.

The fact is that you don't really give a dam_n about the Thais that suffered in the drug war do you? You don't care about the people in the south either. However, it makes you feel good to get on your high horse and bleat on about how bad things are. Tell you what, volunteer at a drug rehab centre, or a school in the south. You can put your gushing concern to work. You won't, because it's all words with the holier than thou contingent and you use these victims as pawns in your political rhetoric. What have you ever done to help these people except empty political hate speech? Climb back on your barstool and drink your Chang please.

Well said. My belief is also that Thailand never had a choice between an un-corrupt government or a corrupt government, but rather between a corrupt government that does something for its poor people and a corrupt government that doesn't.

Ignoring the uneccessary insults from both of you, I believe you perhaps should rethink your stands as much as I should take note of your vitriole.

You know nothing about me - I know nothing about you - let's leave it at that.

Edited April 6, 2010 by RegularReader