Rote Learning

[mark45y]

In a lot of threads in other areas of Thai Visa there has been a number of criticisms of Thai style rote learning.

I really don’t understand the thrust of the argument.

I went to a Catholic grade school, an affluent prep school and a big ten university.

Any time I thought outside of the box as a kid a priest or nun beat me up. When I thought outside of the box as an undergraduate professors flunked me.

In graduate school it loosened up a bit but I still faced university administrations that tried to force me to conform to archaic teaching standards and practices.

Later in business it was accountants, lawyers and efficiency experts that attempted to make every creative move get flushed down the toilet.

It is my opinion that creative problem solving exists rarely in the west. Instead most education, business and life in general is dominated by conformist bumpkins who try and squash any bright stars or talent that do not blossom in a narrow accepted range of mediocrity.

Education in the west is creative in spite of itself - not because of itself.

Why then is there such a clamor about rote learning in Thailand. What’s wrong with it? It is after all how learning is accomplished in the west.

[mizzi39]

I have to agree with some of what you are saying OP, although I never went to parochial school. Rote was important when I was going to school, but in college the focus was more analysis.

There is a place for rote learning, after all there are times when we simply have to remember, but when you have an 'institution" that advocates rote as its primary means of learning, i think that you actually "dumb down" the masses.

Thais are taught to "do as you are told and do not question authority". Learn through memorization and you will be smart, regardless if you understand the content or not. If a teacher insists that 1+1=3 the student wont even question it, even though in the students heart of hearts he/she knows that the teacher is clearly mistaken or flat out wrong. (most) Thai teachers that i know cannot tolerate being questioned on any level , so the rote way of learning is an easy face saver, or the 'just repeat after me " approach.

Fortunately there has been a shift (through the MOE) over the years advocating for more analytical thinking and less rote. The problem is old school teachers with an old school mentality. Once these teachers retire and a new (younger) breed takes their place this "vision" of the MOE might START becoming a slow reality.

Edited April 7, 2010 by mizzi39

[Nio]

With all your self-proclaimed education, you should realize more than anyone that you are comparing your own slanted opinion against the entire education system of the west.

It is very funny with that with no creative thinking, the last 20 years of civilization have advanced more than the 200 years preceeding them.

Look back 10 or 15 years.

Look at all the creative things we have now that we did not have before?

Some one certainly was being creative in designing these technological marvels and thinking outside the box.

Universities do not encourage thinking outside the box? Maybe at Jerk-Off U. they don't but every top ranked school in the world does.

That is exactly why the world has advanced as far as it has in the last 20 years.

Who in the world do you think came up with the idea to think outside the box?

You cannot generalize your own personal experience against the entire education system

For everyone you claim won't think outside the box, there is one already thinking outside the box

Thailand is no different

There are many smart people in Thailand, exceptionally smart people that have graduated from prestige universities all over the world

Generalizing will never get you anywhere, with your education level you should already understand that

It sounds to me like you are probably way, way over qualified for what ever you are doing in Thailand and that has you seriously frustrated with the entire system

My advice is let go because the way things are here is the way they are

[PeaceBlondie]

Even in primary school, you were taught to think for yourself. They taught you to analyze, even to question authority. You had to write thoughtful papers, marshall well-researched facts, and draw reasoned conclusions, by junior high.

I taught 12-year olds here. They were afraid to say "I don't know," or to correct my intentional mistake. They copied shamelessly, ignorantly. They could not answer simple questions in math. These schools are mostly a disgrace to the Thai students. It's the fault of Thai culture. That's my arrogant opinion.

,

[mark45y]

Even in primary school, you were taught to think for yourself. They taught you to analyze, even to question authority. You had to write thoughtful papers, marshall well-researched facts, and draw reasoned conclusions, by junior high.

I taught 12-year olds here. They were afraid to say "I don't know," or to correct my intentional mistake. They copied shamelessly, ignorantly. They could not answer simple questions in math. These schools are mostly a disgrace to the Thai students. It's the fault of Thai culture. That's my arrogant opinion.

,

I understand the copy and cheating problems. Why do Thai teachers allow that?

[PeaceBlondie]

Thai culture?

[mark45y]

With all your self-proclaimed education, you should realize more than anyone that you are comparing your own slanted opinion against the entire education system of the west.

It is very funny with that with no creative thinking, the last 20 years of civilization have advanced more than the 200 years preceeding them.

Look back 10 or 15 years.

Look at all the creative things we have now that we did not have before?

Some one certainly was being creative in designing these technological marvels and thinking outside the box.

Universities do not encourage thinking outside the box? Maybe at Jerk-Off U. they don't but every top ranked school in the world does.

That is exactly why the world has advanced as far as it has in the last 20 years.

Who in the world do you think came up with the idea to think outside the box?

You cannot generalize your own personal experience against the entire education system

For everyone you claim won't think outside the box, there is one already thinking outside the box

Thailand is no different

There are many smart people in Thailand, exceptionally smart people that have graduated from prestige universities all over the world

Generalizing will never get you anywhere, with your education level you should already understand that

It sounds to me like you are probably way, way over qualified for what ever you are doing in Thailand and that has you seriously frustrated with the entire system

My advice is let go because the way things are here is the way they are

If you look at the advances in the world you will notice they have centered around wars. The atomic age, computers, space travel all had their beginnings during WW II.

The cold war prompted further advances by the competition between east and west.

Thinking outside the box means thinking outside of traditional education. It was no accident that Bill Gates dropped out of college.

Logic in a catholic school was encouraged until it conflicted with religion and then heads rolled.

I don’t know if you have ever challenged an authority in his field in front of a couple of thousand other students. It’s not pretty.

Colleges are notoriously out of date when it comes to technology. A few standout as exceptions but not everyone can go to Wharton, Harvard or Oxford and even less persevere to a level where they can actually voice an opinion.

Why on earth would anyone with half a brain teach college economics when they could make a million a year as an investment banker? Compare the salary of a fast food hamburger manager and a college professor if you want a take on the priority the west puts on education.

You are right about Thailand being the same. A fast food manager in Thailand makes quite a bit more than a school teacher in Thailand.

[mark45y]

Thai culture?

Speaking of Thai culture if everyone respects teachers in Thailand and it is such a highly regarded career path why don’t people pay attention to them?

Is Teaching not a respected profession in Thailand?

Are the high school teachers I see drunk every afternoon at the local school typical?

[thunder30101]

I think feared is a better term than respected here. Without some ass kissing and a whole lot of money you aint getting into the private club of so-called higher education sold in thailand. The reason so many thais are in education is number one they are hoping for the day when their white envelope is nice and fat, it is also one of the few jobs here that give a decent pension, also it is one of the easiest degrees to attain here. Rote learning sucks it is a total waste of time how do you think they teach monkeys to press buttons and birds to sing.

[mark45y]

I think feared is a better term than respected here. Without some ass kissing and a whole lot of money you aint getting into the private club of so-called higher education sold in thailand. The reason so many thais are in education is number one they are hoping for the day when their white envelope is nice and fat, it is also one of the few jobs here that give a decent pension, also it is one of the easiest degrees to attain here. Rote learning sucks it is a total waste of time how do you think they teach monkeys to press buttons and birds to sing.

Lets say that a Thai kid takes English twice a week for 6 years (in my experience this is not unusual). I guess rote learning. At the end of 6 years the kid can’t ask where the toilet is in English (not unusual). Is this the fault of rote learning? Or is it no learning. Maybe English teachers could think of ten sentences and teach them over and over for six years. But then that would be rote learning. How else do you teach when you get desperate?

The level of English seems so low. Are all the other subjects that low? At 12 can they not divide or multiply?

I know the young clerk at Lotus can’t add in her head and I know she has graduated from high school. Is this the fault of rote learning?

I also know the state of education of high school dropouts in the US because I had thousands of high school dropout employees. They can’t add either. Am I assume rote learning is at fault?

I see a young woman socially who is a nursing student. I am frightened to see where she ends up working. I hope it is not a hospital I use.

Is this really the fault of rote learning or is it the teachers?

PS. Do you teach in Thailand?

[sarahsbloke]

Rote learning is so bad because it is a system used by teachers who don't know how to teach.

Anyone can teach badly using rote methodology (when your lesson content exceeds 15 minutes of rote learning you know you have failed).

Not only do the Thai teachers who teach English fail badly and are often unable to speak any english themselves, but the English-speaking teachers who do not speak English as their first language often fail as well. Not to mention a four-week TEFL course does not make someone a talented teacher either. As the saying goes you pay peanuts and you get monkeys.

To teach a planned and directed lesson needs some degree of expertise in the subject matter and quite a bit of specialised training.

Edited April 7, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[mark45y]

What is freaking me out about this is the frequency. You see I think at a lot of government schools the kids get two hours of English a week for 6 years in grade school and then another 3 in high school. You would think during that time they would speak just a little bit of English.

If all the English teachers got together and decided on 100 words that would be 11 words a year. Deducting days for vacation and holidays I think that would give the teacher about 4 hours per word.

At the end of the average school career the typical Thai could correctly speak 100 words of English. I think that would be cool.

If rote learning is bad for learning a language what other methods are there? I learned Thai by repeating words over and over until they became part of my vocabulary.

Of course I am very sophisticated and repeated them at set intervals which maximized my learning curve.

Of course grammar and punctuation are completely useless in such a basic learning scheme.

Please correct me if I am wrong but I think the average Thai being able to correctly speak 100 words of English upon leaving school would be about a 90 percent improvement from current conditions.

[PeaceBlondie]

Two hours of Thailish taught weekly and weakly by an incompetent Thai teacher to classes of 45 inattentive, hot Thais is useless. Some native teachers are worse. 12 year olds have been taught not to think. After several years, you might find a decent position. Or not.

I went to a local state school, one of best in the USA. We had to write perfect essays by 11th grade.

[thunder30101]

To answer your question yes I do teach in thailand and I agree with the previous poster, rote learning is used by lazy teachers. These kids spend their whole school life sitting in a classroom with a so-called teacher who drones on and on in a monotone voice while showing cute powerpoints. They sit there nice and quiet (well not with the falang teacher lol) taking notes to be memorized and regurgitated at quiz and test time ( no one fails so I dont know why they bother). Two weeks later they remember nothing about what they have studied. Im not putting them down because I understand this is all they have ever known, maybe in 30 years or so some of the younger people in education now will displace the old, entrenched, corrupt admin and teachers that are perpetuating this theft of thai students education.

[PeaceBlondie]

In two years of teaching, I never saw a PowerPoint presentation, or the set-up for it.

[Scott]

And just how did you learn your multiplication tables?

I am really curious. I never did learn them. It's a hassle at times.

[PeaceBlondie]

Sure - multiplication - age 8. Tones, age 7. But to use a calculator, you should learn to think.

[BlackArtemis]

Rote learning is often teaching towards a test. S. Korea is evidence of this, and even their government is wary of what is happening. The kids only memorize facts and not how to think, they are not learning how to be meta-cognitive.

Now, does this mean that rote learning is 100% wrong and needs to be done away with? Absolutely not! It's a great tool for math and science and most of us have learned grammar via rote learning.

The problem with many older Thai teachers is they know little else than this and are often 1 trick ponies.

[phetaroi]

I think there may really be two different questions here -- what's wrong with rote learning, and what's wrong with rote learning in Thailand.

Let's start with rote learning in general. Nothing wrong with it in its place. There are lots of things you don't really need to think much about, better to just learn them flat. Several have mentioned multiplication tables, and that's a good example. A very good content field that provides a good example is geography. If you're an American, it's a good idea to just know where the 50 states are located. It's part of what I'll refer to as a necessary cultural database needed to function well in American society (and not appear to be an idiot). But most people think that's all geography is. Real geographers go much deeper. It's not just why is New York City where it is, but in historical geography -- why did NYC develop where it did? In another aspect of geography it is -- considering NYC's location and landforms and population density and patterns, how can we solve "problem X"? Rote knowledge provides the base for solving the problem, but it doesn't solve the problem. Learning to think and using those thinking skills solves (or at least may solve) the problem.

I can point to one particular college professor -- Victor Schmidt (glacial geologist) who taught me to think. The first time was in a gravel pit we had taken a field excursion to. Our task was to find a "landform in miniature" there, study it, and solve some question about that miniature landform. I was frustrated and not very creative. I said, "Dr. Schmidt, just give me a problem to solve and I'll figure it all out." "Okay, but your grade will be F." Grumbling I went back to the original assignment and independently came up with a theory for a particular landform that was quite creative. Now, it wasn't anything that geologists hadn't developed before, although the whole concept was very obscure. I was the only one in the course that actually started from scratch; everyone else reinvented something we had already learned about.

The other time he taught me to think...and frustrated me at the same time...was on a field experience down into central Pennsylvania. At one point I asked, "Did the glaciers get down this far?" "Figure it out yourself. You have the knowledge. Not apply what you know. Quit being so lazy." And, though grumbling, I did figure it out.

I know I've rambled, but I think that while rote learning may give you an important cultural database, it also gets you -- "if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got." Rote learning won't solve Thailand's pollution problems. Rote learning won't solve the current political crisis. Rote learning won't solve the traffic problem. There are two types of problems to solve -- the little, routine problems that can be solved by in-the-box thinkers, and the real problems that can only be solved when people think outside the box.

Rote learners rarely suddenly start problem solving. It's a learned process.

[culicine]

Two hours of Thailish taught weekly and weakly by an incompetent Thai teacher to classes of 45 inattentive, hot Thais is useless. Some native teachers are worse. 12 year olds have been taught not to think. After several years, you might find a decent position. Or not.

I went to a local state school, one of best in the USA. We had to write perfect essays by 11th grade.

And to think, our M5's did '1984' last year! There is a massive gulf between wealthy private schools and the majority of government schools. Until they reduce class sizes (by half), give decent training to teachers (both Thai and foreign), and have the MOE admit their curriculum and entrance exams are rubbish, then I'm afraid not much in this country will change.

Even today we see the poor results from the O-net, GAT and PAT. Upper secondary results are particularly poor - the average is LESS than random guessing in some instances! The whole system needs an overhaul - including producing a relevant, graded curriculum (for example - 4 maths courses, suited to the range of ability of the students (not just core and elective which ate too hard for the majority of students). The weakest students often end up in the 'language stream' - so they have to do ANOTHER language on top of thai and english - rather than some remedial english that would be more beneficial).

Rote learning, in terms of Bloom's taxonomy, only represents the first level of questioning - recall of facts/doing calculations, there are 4 more higher levels to reach - understanding, application, synthesis, analysis, evaluation. Thai teachers learn this theory, but it is rarely implemented in the classroom. Perhaps teachers didn't learn how to implement it, teaching 'lose control' over the class, where they must think for themselves and not always follow what the teacher says, class sizes too large, uncomfortable classes, etc.

The MOE needs to shoulder much of the responsibility - sort out their own backyard (get rid of multiple choice exams), and stop blaming overworked teachers for the poor results of students. However, one of my m6 students said the PAT exam was NOT multiple choice (or at least part of it). Thus students actually have to show work to gain points. Thats a promising start if it is correct.

[culicine]

I think there may really be two different questions here -- what's wrong with rote learning, and what's wrong with rote learning in Thailand.

Let's start with rote learning in general. Nothing wrong with it in its place. There are lots of things you don't really need to think much about, better to just learn them flat. Several have mentioned multiplication tables, and that's a good example. A very good content field that provides a good example is geography. If you're an American, it's a good idea to just know where the 50 states are located. It's part of what I'll refer to as a necessary cultural database needed to function well in American society (and not appear to be an idiot). But most people think that's all geography is. Real geographers go much deeper. It's not just why is New York City where it is, but in historical geography -- why did NYC develop where it did? In another aspect of geography it is -- considering NYC's location and landforms and population density and patterns, how can we solve "problem X"? Rote knowledge provides the base for solving the problem, but it doesn't solve the problem. Learning to think and using those thinking skills solves (or at least may solve) the problem.

I can point to one particular college professor -- Victor Schmidt (glacial geologist) who taught me to think. The first time was in a gravel pit we had taken a field excursion to. Our task was to find a "landform in miniature" there, study it, and solve some question about that miniature landform. I was frustrated and not very creative. I said, "Dr. Schmidt, just give me a problem to solve and I'll figure it all out." "Okay, but your grade will be F." Grumbling I went back to the original assignment and independently came up with a theory for a particular landform that was quite creative. Now, it wasn't anything that geologists hadn't developed before, although the whole concept was very obscure. I was the only one in the course that actually started from scratch; everyone else reinvented something we had already learned about.

The other time he taught me to think...and frustrated me at the same time...was on a field experience down into central Pennsylvania. At one point I asked, "Did the glaciers get down this far?" "Figure it out yourself. You have the knowledge. Not apply what you know. Quit being so lazy." And, though grumbling, I did figure it out.

I know I've rambled, but I think that while rote learning may give you an important cultural database, it also gets you -- "if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got." Rote learning won't solve Thailand's pollution problems. Rote learning won't solve the current political crisis. Rote learning won't solve the traffic problem. There are two types of problems to solve -- the little, routine problems that can be solved by in-the-box thinkers, and the real problems that can only be solved when people think outside the box.

Rote learners rarely suddenly start problem solving. It's a learned process.

Thanks for your post - you nailed it.

"reinventing the wheel" is a very important learning process - it seems to only happen in selected schools here, or Thai pick it up when they study overseas. It is certainly something that cannot be picked up readily - I saw last week how much my M5 struggled with some open ended maths questions I designed for M3!! I think I have to rethink giving those to M3..

Rote learning is also much easier than having to think out a problem and come up with a creative solution. There is a lot more "risk" involved, but it's something that should be developed here it Thailand is to move ahead.

[sarahsbloke]

What is freaking me out about this is the frequency. You see I think at a lot of government schools the kids get two hours of English a week for 6 years in grade school and then another 3 in high school. You would think during that time they would speak just a little bit of English.

If all the English teachers got together and decided on 100 words that would be 11 words a year. Deducting days for vacation and holidays I think that would give the teacher about 4 hours per word.

At the end of the average school career the typical Thai could correctly speak 100 words of English. I think that would be cool.

You forget that many (if not most) of the teachers, teaching English, can speak no English themselves ..... strange but true.

The students may learn to read and write 100 words ..... but they can't speak (or understand) them in any way an English speaking person could comprehend.

[PeaceBlondie]

I did a maths test final exam for M1 - no multiple guessing. My worst student got less than 15%. On the Thai teacher's multiple guess, he scored 35%. But average scores under 25% is incredible!!

In most cases, it's hopeless.

[mark45y]

So I’ve got it straight, rote learning means repeating something till you have memorized it? A teacher saying a word and having students repeat it would be rote learning. Where as a teacher asking a student, “where is the bathroom?” would involve understanding and application?

Forgive me but it doesn’t seem like a giant step to teach a child a word and then act out how to use that word. Don’t Thai teachers ever do this?

[PeaceBlondie]

I had a bright Thai co-teacher of English. She observed me acting out walking, talking, lifting a chair, walking in and out, etc. Next day she modeled it. Had I not been observed, I don't know if she'd ever have learned it.

[Kitsch22]

And just how did you learn your multiplication tables?

I am really curious. I never did learn them. It's a hassle at times.

In my case that vitally important foundation was laid by bribery-assisted rote learning. At the age of five I was promised (the word "incentivised" did not exist in those days) a pound note upon demonstrating that I could respond to 100 "tables" in writing within five minutes with 100% accuracy. I vividly remember getting one wrong (carelessly wrote "80" instead of "81") at my first attempt and being absolutely devastated by that abject failure. Achieved my pound at the second attempt (the next day), though. To give some perspective, at the time one pound represented 40 weeks' pocket money. Possibly the sweetest pound I ever earned; very probably the best pound my parents ever invested. To this day my (Thai) wife marvels that I can perform calculations that are (to her) impossibly complex without resort to electronic/mechanical aids.

I say that Thai kids need more (and more concentrated) rote learning, not less. They can move on to all the 'critical/analytical skills' rubbish once they have a mental toolkit furnished with a proper grounding in the basics.

[sarahsbloke]

Forgive me but it doesn’t seem like a giant step to teach a child a word and then act out how to use that word. Don’t Thai teachers ever do this?

Sorry you appear to misunderstand.

The English teacher often doesn't know how to pronounce any English at all.

As Peaceblondie says, acting out is quite a novel idea in Thailand (might be considered as loss of face).

But even if they do manage to transmit the meaning of the written work, nobody can speak it out loud.

BUt if I may demonstrate my own experience of Thai rote learning (AUA).

6 weeks of reading Thai script, no meaning given for any of the words, many of the words not having any meaning, to get me used to reading Thai script ...... why not use real Thai words? why not select Thai words that will be useful in building my Thai vocabulary?

Answer: Because this is the way we do it in Thailand, you learn words with meanings in next 6 week course.

Lessons have no purpose, no direction and no interest, therefor a complete waste of time

Edited April 8, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[mark45y]

Forgive me but it doesn’t seem like a giant step to teach a child a word and then act out how to use that word. Don’t Thai teachers ever do this?

Sorry you appear to misunderstand.

The English teacher often doesn't know how to pronounce any English at all.

As Peaceblondie says, acting out is quite a novel idea in Thailand (might be considered as loss of face).

But even if they do manage to transmit the meaning of the written work, nobody can speak it out loud.

BUt if I may demonstrate my own experience of Thai rote learning (AUA).

6 weeks of reading Thai script, no meaning given for any of the words, many of the words not having any meaning, to get me used to reading Thai script ...... why not use real Thai words? why not select Thai words that will be useful in building my Thai vocabulary?

Answer: Because this is the way we do it in Thailand, you learn words with meanings in next 6 week course.

Lessons have no purpose, no direction and no interest, therefor a complete waste of time

In a government school in Thailand if a child has taken English for 9 years and finished M-3 what level are they at? Reading? Writing? Speaking?

Are there drastic differences between say, Bangkok and Korat and Rayong?

[sarahsbloke]

In a government school in Thailand if a child has taken English for 9 years and finished M-3 what level are they at? Reading? Writing? Speaking?

Every child passes, so impossible to say, they even pass if they skipped all the lessons.

[PeaceBlondie]

I had a tour guide who had just earned a BA in English at CMU - supposedly the best school in northern Thailand. His speech was worse than my better M4 students.