What Is Best For The Little Boy?

[kerrybill]

Three months ago my son brought back to Australia his Thai/Australian son who is 4 years old next week.The mother had willingly given him to his father.After 2 months she pleaded that she was missing him so came out on a tourist visa and now wants to take him back to Thailand. My son is very concerned for the boy's safety as the mother has a new man who wants to look after her and the 2 boys( the elder boy from a previous relationship) and go to live in Phuket.

The little boy has an Aust. passport and has been attending kinder,swimming lessons etc. here and his English is so good. His welfare,safety and best interests are our prime concern.

It is along and complicated story and one I believe that is very common to readers of this forum so I won't go into details. This is his 4th stay in Australia and the mother has always accompanied him. We have had problems with her drinking,violence,laziness and so on and always thought that she was only interested in the money she percieved to be in abundant supply in Australia.

Past history:

They have never married.

They knew each other a very short time before the baby was concieved.

My son has visited Thailand but never lived there. She and the child have lived with my son in Manila and China with returns to Thailand for vias purposes Probably only about 20 months in all.

The four years have been a nightmare.

Of late she has been leaving the boy in the village with her mother and an older boy while she has been in Macau,

She has been paid 10000 TBaht a month plus the usual extras that she comes up with.

Her parents house has been completely rebuilt,for the boys comfort.(about 2 hours north of Bangkok)

To the point.

My son has told her that the boy is staying in Australia and has offered her the return flight and a substantial amount of money annually so she can visit 3 times a year. She is Ok with this but doesn't want to wait until an agreement is drawn up by a family law lawyer. The little boy never mentions his mother when she is not around and appears very happy and adjusting to the Aust.way.

Could it be so easy? Can she somehow get the little boy back when she returns to Thailand?

Is the Hague convention relevant to this situation?

[bread]

I feel sorry for you son I am in the same situation

"We have had problems with her drinking,violence,laziness and so on and always thought that she was only interested in the money she percieved to be in abundant supply in Australia."

I think this is the same with so many people and you are right it is very common.

In my opinon you are in a good situation when it comes to allready having the child in Australia.

When In thailand there will not be a lot she can do. The Hague convention will not stand.

[mizzi39]

OP quote:

Three months ago my son brought back to Australia his Thai/Australian son who is 4 years old next week.The mother had willingly given him to his father.After 2 months she pleaded that she was missing him so came out on a tourist visa and now wants to take him back to Thailand. My son is very concerned for the boy's safety as the mother has a new man who wants to look after her and the 2 boys( the elder boy from a previous relationship) and go to live in Phuket.

The little boy has an Aust. passport and has been attending kinder,swimming lessons etc. here and his English is so good. His welfare,safety and best interests are our prime concern.

It is along and complicated story and one I believe that is very common to readers of this forum so I won't go into details. This is his 4th stay in Australia and the mother has always accompanied him. We have had problems with her drinking,violence,laziness and so on and always thought that she was only interested in the money she percieved to be in abundant supply in Australia.

Hmm. Well this situation sure is not common to this reader. Some of us have made good choices when it comes to relationships and raising children, but that aside.

Now about her drinking, VIOLENCE and laziness????? Four years of a "living nightmare"? She is with another man and can "afford" to go off to Macau, but yet is paid 10000 baht per month? Many things don't add up here.

I think you already know what is best for your grandson. He is obviously in a secure, stable environment in OZ. Once you hand him over to mom and she whisks him off to Thailand she will have the upper hand, and unless you have wads of money to fight for custody if it came to that down the road good luck getting him back. Thailand has its own set of rules when it comes to custody.

Leave the burden to mom if she wants her son back. Have her fight it in an OZ court if she so chooses, guarantee she wont, after all she willingly gave him up to dad. Give here the agreed visitation rights and leave it at that.

[ozsamurai]

Agree with above, no matter how fair you think you are being. Don't lose control of him, especially to Thai Justice. Let her burn her money (yours in fact), in another 12 yrs he can decide for himself anyway.

[bread]

I agree much better to have the child in Australia and let her go through the courts (though I seem to remember reading she will get legal aid in Australia I think)

mizzi39;"Now about her drinking, VIOLENCE and laziness????? Four years of a "living nightmare"? She is with another man and can "afford" to go off to Macau, but yet is paid 10000 baht per month"

the OP seems to be indicating that she was paid 10000baht a month as child welfare which I thought was a relatively common amount (though I my self am trying to clarify that).

bread

[wkrolph]

If the boy goes to Thailand with his mom and she wants to keep him there then there will not be anything you can do about it. Thailand is not signatory to the Hague Convention and means nothing to them. Police will not get involved in custody issues. So, unless you have something by the Thai courts saying that custody is your sons and it's sole custody, I don't think you should let him go...

[kerrybill]

OP quote:

Three months ago my son brought back to Australia his Thai/Australian son who is 4 years old next week.The mother had willingly given him to his father.After 2 months she pleaded that she was missing him so came out on a tourist visa and now wants to take him back to Thailand. My son is very concerned for the boy's safety as the mother has a new man who wants to look after her and the 2 boys( the elder boy from a previous relationship) and go to live in Phuket.

The little boy has an Aust. passport and has been attending kinder,swimming lessons etc. here and his English is so good. His welfare,safety and best interests are our prime concern.

It is along and complicated story and one I believe that is very common to readers of this forum so I won't go into details. This is his 4th stay in Australia and the mother has always accompanied him. We have had problems with her drinking,violence,laziness and so on and always thought that she was only interested in the money she percieved to be in abundant supply in Australia.

Hmm. Well this situation sure is not common to this reader. Some of us have made good choices when it comes to relationships and raising children, but that aside.

Now about her drinking, VIOLENCE and laziness????? Four years of a "living nightmare"? She is with another man and can "afford" to go off to Macau, but yet is paid 10000 baht per month? Many things don't add up here.

I think you already know what is best for your grandson. He is obviously in a secure, stable environment in OZ. Once you hand him over to mom and she whisks him off to Thailand she will have the upper hand, and unless you have wads of money to fight for custody if it came to that down the road good luck getting him back. Thailand has its own set of rules when it comes to custody.

Leave the burden to mom if she wants her son back. Have her fight it in an OZ court if she so chooses, guarantee she wont, after all she willingly gave him up to dad. Give here the agreed visitation rights and leave it at that.

I have tried to be accurate but keep it brief as the details are complicated and most readers will know of a similiar story. She was getting the 10000TB to care for the boy while my son worked in China. She left the boy with his grandparents to find a new man. She went to macau where she had worked before and found the new b/f about 6 months ago.

Bottom line I get from the replies is keep our grandson in Australia where he is safe and get her back to Thailand with a payment and allow visits if she so choses.

[mizzi39]

quote:

Bottom line I get from the replies is keep our grandson in Australia where he is safe and get her back to Thailand with a payment and allow visits if she so choses

Yes, and chok dee. Payment? That's up to you. You don't owe her anything, after all you are caring for HER son

Edited April 8, 2010 by mizzi39

[sonicdragon]

Agree with the other posters. Be very wary of any situation that allows her to take the boy back to Thailand (does the boy also have a Thai passport ?). Get advice from an expert regarding legal custody in Australia ASAP. Good luck.

[Boo]

Is there any documentation that she signed when she agreed to give your son custody of the boy? If yes then lodge it with the Australian court, get official custody then use the money you were planning to give her to employ a very good thai law firm to lodge it in the thai courts too. Tilack & gibbons are considered one of the best. Western prices but worth it imo.

As for paying the mother. Why? She has a new bf who is willing to support her. She isn't raising the child & incurs no expense for his welfare. By thai law SHE should be paying your son.

Read through a few of the custody threads here, there are lots. FYI thai law doesn't recognise parental abduction so if your son, who also quite likely hasn't even legitimized the child under thai law so has no rights as a parent IN THAILAND, would make a huge mistake to return the child to Thailand before getting the custody issue resolved.

[Mario2008]

A relevant question is, where was the child born? and did the father legitimise the child under the laws of that county? Under Thai law he will cureently have no rights.

The child has an Australian passport, so the child was at least recognised by the father under Australian law.

[thehop]

Having been through something that sounds very similar I would not let the boy go back to Thailand with the mother under any circumstances, you are just asking for major trouble. I would also cut her off financially, if she wants to visit the boy let her do it under her own steam. Sounds very harsh I know, but unless you have been through this you will never know what the Thais and their legal system may come up with.

Good luck.

[wolf5370]

A relevant question is, where was the child born? and did the father legitimise the child under the laws of that county? Under Thai law he will currently have no rights.

The child has an Australian passport, so the child was at least recognised by the father under Australian law.

Having been through something that sounds very similar I would not let the boy go back to Thailand with the mother under any circumstances, you are just asking for major trouble. I would also cut her off financially, if she wants to visit the boy let her do it under her own steam. Sounds very harsh I know, but unless you have been through this you will never know what the Thais and their legal system may come up with.

Good luck.

Agree with these, and other poster under no circumstances take the risk of the kid disappearing into a jurisdiction that your son has no rights in. Even in the west if a parent has the kids, it is one heck of a battle legally to have the kid moved to the other. In Thailand, with no marriage cert., I'd say its extremely difficult, so don't take the risk. There is a fair chance that the kid will be used as leverage and an easy source of income, nothing more.

Find a good lawyer in Oz. Have a protection order put on the kid to stop him being removed from the country. Make sure she is not with the kid alone at any time while she is in Oz visiting him. Keep both his Oz and Thai passports safely locked away - though if she has a birth cert she can get another Thai passport for him.

If the kid doesn't know the mother (from you post), then why play nice with her? Forget sending money, that she could use against you. Its not your (or your son's) business or duty to pay her didley-squat. All all likelihood she will not be able to afford to visit him in Oz, and as he has an Oz passport, it will be very difficult for her to get him back legally (as it would for you if she snatched him).

Remember all is fair in love and war! (and I'll add - protecting your family)

Edited April 14, 2010 by wolf5370

[MikeyIdea]

I think that it should be noted that the father is hardly even a relative of the child currently. The father and the mother never married and the father did not legitimise the child. That means that the mother has sole custody according to Thai law. It also means that the mother can sue for kidnapping even - in Thailand. Very unlikely of course but the mother can if she wants to and has money arrange so that the father gets arrested at the airport when he arrives in Thailand.

What is done in Australia is good and should be done, but it will bear no weight in Thailand. The child is not legitimised in Thailand and that is a big problem actually; I remember reading in the Isaanlawyers page about custody that the supreme court overruled an agreement that 2 parents jointly had done because the father had never legitimised the child. There is a link to a thread with a link to that article in pinned at the top of the family forum. I read this as If parents want to make a custody agreement, then child must be legitimised first. The child is not and there is thereby no guarantee that legal agreement will hold in Thai law. Find and read the IsaanLawyers article, it is good

Now I will go against many of the other posters though

It will not be difficult for the father to get shared custody according to Thai law, the mother named the father as father on the birth certificate herself, he will get 50/50. Question is what he will get in terms of possession of the child, not that difficult to get 50/50 there either, especially not if the mother is as bad as she is said to be, just get video evidence of that. It doesnt matter though The father doesnt live in Thailand, he lives in Australia, difficult to share custody between 2 countries.

There is an old post by Soundman I think it was, very good, its about a custody case between an Australian and a Thai, the father used Tilleke & Gibbons and had a long and costly court battle that he in the end won and he got sole custody and brought his child to live in Australia. One important factor in that case that we must remember is that the child was being taken care of by the grandmother, not the mother and money was paid too. Search for the post and read it, good reading.

I dont know, I dont like keeping children away from their mothers but I would not take the child to Thailand, in fact I wouldnt go there myself either. Its not that the father would loose the court battle, he wouldnt quite loose, but its that the mother agreed to the child going to his country in the first place, and its the hassle of it all. The child also seems to have a better life with the father and the father seems to have the financial resources to allow the mother to come over and visit the child 3 times per year, and provide her with much more money than a Thai court ever would give her, they order something like a hundred bath per day in child support and if he shows them that he takes care of the child more responsibly than the mother does, then he will get the lion share of the time with the child also in Thailand

This as long as the father keep paying the mother and pay for a couple of visits per year (but keep the passports hidden during the time)

Not what I normally write

Edited April 16, 2010 by MikeyIdea