Red-Shirts Blamed For Gunfights, Bomb Attacks

[MellowYellow]

With all the claims and counterclaims of violence and threats of violence, how many have died in this protest prior to last night?

How many have died on either side prior to the government using the military to attack it's own citizens?

For all the rhetoric on both sides, the number was ZERO until the army stepped in.

[anotherpeter]

The red shirts want power. They don't want to change anything else.

yes, they do - through the ballot box, not the bullets

Then wait for elections. Don't try and force an elected government out through violence.

No country should have elections whenever a mob comes out to protest.

[Jerrytheyoung]

Abhisit Government also does know about the consequences of engaging Army in the operations.

Thursday evening or Friday morning , when Abhisit has decided to come back on the red TV agreement between Army and Red Shirts, he has been agitating the red tissue in front of the Toro (Corrida). He has some responsability in the escalading situation.

[MellowYellow]

The red shirts want power. They don't want to change anything else.

yes, they do - through the ballot box, not the bullets

Then wait for elections. Don't try and force an elected government out through violence.

No country should have elections whenever a mob comes out to protest.

Unless, of course, it is a yellow mob.

Then, of course, everything is ok.

Yellow mob good.

Red mob bad.

Abhisit good!

Thaksin BAD!

Dissent is a privilege of the elite not the poor in this country now.

[anotherpeter]

With all the claims and counterclaims of violence and threats of violence, how many have died in this protest prior to last night?

How many have died on either side prior to the government using the military to attack it's own citizens?

For all the rhetoric on both sides, the number was ZERO until the army stepped in.

The army were involved the day before when the red protestors ignored them and pushed through into Thaicom.

The protestors also pushed their way into government house.

And then they tried to push their way into a military barracks. And you want the army to step aside then?

[tonywebster]

This government (and I use the word 'government' jokingly) don't give a dam_n about the deaths, the protesters that died are the poor and the soldiers that died were probably the same, some poor conscripts from the north east. Abhisit needs to hang his head in shame this morning, then do the right thing and fall on his sword. He spouted nonsense about he will win 240 seats then did not have the balls to put that to the people. it is his desire to hang onto the power that he was given by the army that led to this, he knew he could not win it in an election.

I am ashamed that this man was educated in the UK, as soon as he left there and came to Thailand he straight away adopted the thai attitude of 'fuc_k you, I am rich'.

He has always been weak and always will be

[saintofsilence]

This Thread should not have been opened as it is in Contradiction with the aim of what the Nation has written in "our darkest day".

Yesterday morning, before any incident, I have underlined that Army should stay in its barracks because Army is a symbol of National Unity and should not be used against any fellow citizen- only reserved to external threats.

Young soldiers with several rounds of rubber and some (for warning) live ones, can confuse easily in the heat of a battle. Once everything begins to degenerate, everybody is warming up and the situatiion is escalading on both sides.

The decision to engage army (reluctant initially to be involved) is the key to this tragic saturday.

People engaged in a battle are loosing restraints it is well known: this kind of situation nearly always is degenerating.

The real responsability belongs to those who have created the situation, not to the fighters.

ARMY should have never been involved in this action.

Its people with limited knowledge like your self that have started this bloodshed it is a waste of time replying to your ridiculous post get back in your box and use your brain and do a bit more research.

[anotherpeter]

The red shirts want power. They don't want to change anything else.

yes, they do - through the ballot box, not the bullets

Then wait for elections. Don't try and force an elected government out through violence.

No country should have elections whenever a mob comes out to protest.

Unless, of course, it is a yellow mob.

Then, of course, everything is ok.

Yellow mob good.

Red mob bad.

Abhisit good!

Thaksin BAD!

Dissent is a privilege of the elite not the poor in this country now.

Dissent is the priviledge of everyone. Violence is not, from either side.

The yellow mob DID NOT overthrow a government.

Even the courts DID NOT overthrow a government.

The remaining PPP MPs (PTP) were still in government after the PPP was disbanded.

It wasn't until the smaller parties changed their support from the PTP that the Democrats came to power.

It wasn't the yellow, it wasn't the courts, it was the MPs elected by the people that chose Abhisit as PM.

[Jerrytheyoung]

This Thread should not have been opened as it is in Contradiction with the aim of what the Nation has written in "our darkest day".

Yesterday morning, before any incident, I have underlined that Army should stay in its barracks because Army is a symbol of National Unity and should not be used against any fellow citizen- only reserved to external threats.

Young soldiers with several rounds of rubber and some (for warning) live ones, can confuse easily in the heat of a battle. Once everything begins to degenerate, everybody is warming up and the situatiion is escalading on both sides.

The decision to engage army (reluctant initially to be involved) is the key to this tragic saturday.

People engaged in a battle are loosing restraints it is well known: this kind of situation nearly always is degenerating.

The real responsability belongs to those who have created the situation, not to the fighters.

ARMY should have never been involved in this action.

Its people with limited knowledge like your self that have started this bloodshed it is a waste of time replying to your ridiculous post get back in your box and use your brain and do a bit more research.

What do you know about my knowledge? Yes I am not an English native speaking and my English is not always correct if it is your criticisms...

[anotherpeter]

This government (and I use the word 'government' jokingly) don't give a dam_n about the deaths, the protesters that died are the poor and the soldiers that died were probably the same, some poor conscripts from the north east. Abhisit needs to hang his head in shame this morning, then do the right thing and fall on his sword. He spouted nonsense about he will win 240 seats then did not have the balls to put that to the people. it is his desire to hang onto the power that he was given by the army that led to this, he knew he could not win it in an election.

I am ashamed that this man was educated in the UK, as soon as he left there and came to Thailand he straight away adopted the thai attitude of 'fuc_k you, I am rich'.

He has always been weak and always will be

If the government step down now, then mob rule has won. And no one can complain about the next mob that come out to try and force the government to step down.

[dcutman]

This Thread should not have been opened as it is in Contradiction with the aim of what the Nation has written in "our darkest day".

Yesterday morning, before any incident, I have underlined that Army should stay in its barracks because Army is a symbol of National Unity and should not be used against any fellow citizen- only reserved to external threats.

Young soldiers with several rounds of rubber and some (for warning) live ones, can confuse easily in the heat of a battle. Once everything begins to degenerate, everybody is warming up and the situatiion is escalading on both sides.

The decision to engage army (reluctant initially to be involved) is the key to this tragic saturday.

People engaged in a battle are loosing restraints it is well known: this kind of situation nearly always is degenerating.

The real responsability belongs to those who have created the situation, not to the fighters.

ARMY should have never been involved in this action.

I am not sure where you are from, but i think every country on this planet has used the military for a large civil unrest.

I think the government has been more than patient with the Reds to the point of looking like fools.

The Reds have been begging for this for a month now. I hope this was a wake up call for all those just putting a red shirt on for another reason than a real belief in something.

[anotherpeter]

I don't think you understand the other opinions.

The red shirts want power. They don't want to change anything else.

And Abhisit and the democrats have and want more power too... nothing more (or just more money also)

The government offered elections 12 months before they were due. They tried to negotiate with the reds, but the reds weren't interested in negotiating.

[animatic]

I think we can all agree it would not be below the Red Shirt mentality to spill some of its own blood to play the sympathy card. They killed their own people, shame on the reds!

and shame on the fake coalition government who use the word democrat just in the name of their politic part...

it's not the first time Thailand has clash in politics with demonstrators... but now they start to lose control on the deep south and in the big province of the north and north east...

next step is civil war if this government continous to ignore the other side... or outisde Bangkok i mean...

The deep south is all the Abhisit governments fault?? What sort of logic do you use to work that out?

And it's funny that the PPP can have coalition governments, but as soon as the Democrats do, it's fake.

I never said the deep south it the fault of this governemnt partly or completly, just nothing change and now could be another part of Thailand angry with him...

TRT was alone, PPP with coalition was first and respect a vote without using a court for ban a lot of opposite members (even if it was right)... Not this coalition of turnjacket politicians who do a coalition specially after the court decide to ban or clean PPP or TRT or all the real opposite of democrats for win majority... if they did'nt have the court in their pocket they did'nt win ! was just the beggining of Abhisit revenge VS Thaksin... now is another part and will be more until both side continous the game to separate for reign....

Turnjackets,

who turnedjacket to join Thaksin in 200 and turned jacket to leave Thakain in 2008.

Absolutely standard Thai political practice. Real politik practiced by those knowing

how to stay near the top, since they can BE at the top.

Like the scorpion on the turtles back hitching a ride across the river,

then stinging the turtle and then both drown... Why?

The scorpion couldn't help it, that is it's nature.

To imagine that these small parties have dine this great evil sea change is ludicrous,

just another turn of political fortunes as periodically happens in Thai politics

[MellowYellow]

Then wait for elections. Don't try and force an elected government out through violence.

No country should have elections whenever a mob comes out to protest.

Unless, of course, it is a yellow mob.

Then, of course, everything is ok.

Yellow mob good.

Red mob bad.

Abhisit good!

Thaksin BAD!

Dissent is a privilege of the elite not the poor in this country now.

Dissent is the priviledge of everyone. Violence is not, from either side.

The yellow mob DID NOT overthrow a government.

Even the courts DID NOT overthrow a government.

The remaining PPP MPs (PTP) were still in government after the PPP was disbanded.

It wasn't until the smaller parties changed their support from the PTP that the Democrats came to power.

It wasn't the yellow, it wasn't the courts, it was the MPs elected by the people that chose Abhisit as PM.

Yellows did NOT get attacked by the military even though they TOOK OVER both government house and airports.

The red protesters took over some streets and there is a bloodbath now.

The government has and is using violence on it's people to silence dissent.

I ask again, how many DEAD, on ether side were there, until the military attacked last night?

[tonywebster]

This government (and I use the word 'government' jokingly) don't give a dam_n about the deaths, the protesters that died are the poor and the soldiers that died were probably the same, some poor conscripts from the north east. Abhisit needs to hang his head in shame this morning, then do the right thing and fall on his sword. He spouted nonsense about he will win 240 seats then did not have the balls to put that to the people. it is his desire to hang onto the power that he was given by the army that led to this, he knew he could not win it in an election.

I am ashamed that this man was educated in the UK, as soon as he left there and came to Thailand he straight away adopted the thai attitude of 'fuc_k you, I am rich'.

He has always been weak and always will be

If the government step down now, then mob rule has won. And no one can complain about the next mob that come out to try and force the government to step down.

such a thai mentality you show here. If the government step down Peter Thailand has won, not mob rule.

This government ordered this crackdown just as they did last songkhran, and all because they want to cling to power, in the knowledge they will lose an election. They have not managed to win power for the past 3 elections and they know that number will raise to 4.

Dissolve parliament, charge all parties involved in this mess the same as the PPP are persecuted for ordering the crackdown on the yellows. show some balance and maybe the country has a chance to move forward.

Don't forget this 'mob' were on the streets simply to get a government elected by the people, it is the power grabbing by the dems that has led to this situation, and the help of the military and the military backed courts and bodies. Many people should be hanging their heads in shame, and none of them are wearing red.

[Jerrytheyoung]

This Thread should not have been opened as it is in Contradiction with the aim of what the Nation has written in "our darkest day".

Yesterday morning, before any incident, I have underlined that Army should stay in its barracks because Army is a symbol of National Unity and should not be used against any fellow citizen- only reserved to external threats.

Young soldiers with several rounds of rubber and some (for warning) live ones, can confuse easily in the heat of a battle. Once everything begins to degenerate, everybody is warming up and the situatiion is escalading on both sides.

The decision to engage army (reluctant initially to be involved) is the key to this tragic saturday.

People engaged in a battle are loosing restraints it is well known: this kind of situation nearly always is degenerating.

The real responsability belongs to those who have created the situation, not to the fighters.

ARMY should have never been involved in this action.

I am not sure where you are from, but i think every country on this planet has used the military for a large civil unrest.

I think the government has been more than patient with the Reds to the point of looking like fools.

The Reds have been begging for this for a month now. I hope this was a wake up call for all those just putting a red shirt on for another reason than a real belief in something.

I have already answer: it is a POLICE operation, Professional Special anti riot forces have to be used not an Army particularly when composed by conscrits: it destroy the image of Unity that must represent Army. yes in my Country (France) we have special units named CRS (Compagnies Repbublicaines de Securite).

[chillibilly]

Congratulations RED Leaders (I purposely do not want to know their names) You finallly got what you wanted...some of your own people dead to stir up your puppet followers. Meanwhile you stay far away protected. I pray there is a big rain storm to wash you pests away.

[saintofsilence]

Let's hope that every resource is now used to bring Thaksin or Thaki Shiniga back to this country and make the criminal face charges of inciting violence causing death he has to take responsibilty for this bloodshed.

Jail him for life and any red leaders that have broken the laws of government.

[anotherpeter]

Yellows did NOT get attacked by the military even though they TOOK OVER both government house and airports.

The red protesters took over some streets and there is a bloodbath now.

The government has and is using violence on it's people to silence dissent.

I ask again, how many DEAD, on ether side were there, until the military attacked last night?

There were deaths during the the yellows takeover of government house.

The red protestors tried to get into an army establishment. Is the army supposed to let them walk in?

[animatic]

Then wait for elections. Don't try and force an elected government out through violence.

No country should have elections whenever a mob comes out to protest.

Unless, of course, it is a yellow mob.

Then, of course, everything is ok.

Yellow mob good.

Red mob bad.

Abhisit good!

Thaksin BAD!

Dissent is a privilege of the elite not the poor in this country now.

Dissent is the priviledge of everyone. Violence is not, from either side.

The yellow mob DID NOT overthrow a government.

Even the courts DID NOT overthrow a government.

The remaining PPP MPs (PTP) were still in government after the PPP was disbanded.

It wasn't until the smaller parties changed their support from the PTP that the Democrats came to power.

It wasn't the yellow, it wasn't the courts, it was the MPs elected by the people that chose Abhisit as PM.

Yes the MP's chose Abhisit and the people chose the MP's.

Elected democracy, but it isn't mob flavored.

Sadly a line had to be drawn clearly and the Red Leaders chose to step over it and slap those on the other side hard.

They got slapped back, and though they did this on purpose, the other side was forced into their response.

History will be written far into the future, but the brunt of this day of horror wil weigh on the Red leaders,

on their stage inciting insurrection, and creating scenes in which violence was the only option.

If they had understood democracy at all they wouldn't have done this.

If PTP had tried to be a real opposition party and worked to create a better Thailand t

heir voices would have been heard IN Parliament, insteadt they squandered their mandate to bring down

their poosite numbers anyway they could... not working for the people, but working for themselves and their liege lord.

This is the crux of what brought us to this horrible day. Myopic self-interest trumping common sense and duty.

[Sisaketmike]

I think we can all agree it would not be below the Red Shirt mentality to spill some of its own blood to play the sympathy card. They killed their own people, shame on the reds!

How can you come up with a post like that? If you’d be a soldier in Thailand, just watching guys with real guns, trying to shoot you, wouldn’t you kill them first? Don’t make up stories you can’t proof, please…..

[saintofsilence]

This Thread should not have been opened as it is in Contradiction with the aim of what the Nation has written in "our darkest day".

Yesterday morning, before any incident, I have underlined that Army should stay in its barracks because Army is a symbol of National Unity and should not be used against any fellow citizen- only reserved to external threats.

Young soldiers with several rounds of rubber and some (for warning) live ones, can confuse easily in the heat of a battle. Once everything begins to degenerate, everybody is warming up and the situatiion is escalading on both sides.

The decision to engage army (reluctant initially to be involved) is the key to this tragic saturday.

People engaged in a battle are loosing restraints it is well known: this kind of situation nearly always is degenerating.

The real responsability belongs to those who have created the situation, not to the fighters.

ARMY should have never been involved in this action.

Its people with limited knowledge like your self that have started this bloodshed it is a waste of time replying to your ridiculous post get back in your box and use your brain and do a bit more research.

What do you know about my knowledge? Yes I am not an English native speaking and my English is not always correct if it is your criticisms...

As other posters have told you it was the right way to handle the situation by using forces . What would you do hit them with your handbag ?

[sbk]

We will drop the insults. If you can't post civilly then do not post at all. Today is NOT the day for childish tit for tat insults.

[anotherpeter]

such a thai mentality you show here. If the government step down Peter Thailand has won, not mob rule.

This government ordered this crackdown just as they did last songkhran, and all because they want to cling to power, in the knowledge they will lose an election. They have not managed to win power for the past 3 elections and they know that number will raise to 4.

Dissolve parliament, charge all parties involved in this mess the same as the PPP are persecuted for ordering the crackdown on the yellows. show some balance and maybe the country has a chance to move forward.

Don't forget this 'mob' were on the streets simply to get a government elected by the people, it is the power grabbing by the dems that has led to this situation, and the help of the military and the military backed courts and bodies. Many people should be hanging their heads in shame, and none of them are wearing red.

You've seen most of my posts explaining that Abhisit IS elected.

The PPP were not a majority. They don't automatically deserve to be in government because a large number of people voted for them.

A larger number of people did not vote for them. A larger number of MPs have decided that they don't want the PPP (PTP) in government.

The red leaders have been spouting violence for weeks. The reds have been pushing and pushing, stepping up the rhetoric, stepping up the actions, and last night the red leaders got what they have been asking for on stage for weeks.

[way2muchcoffee]

Today is not the day to accuse each other and particularly the people engaged on the battle field.

Today responsible people try to avoid the situation escalading.

In democratic Countries we have special Anti-Riot Forces associated with Police. It is a Police Job to control a Mob, not an Army one.

The Army Spokesman is now dissatisfied because the Red Shirt do not respect the soldiers: it was predictable, is not it? ARMY is loosing its credibility: this is an important breach toward a Civil War if the reasonable people loose grip.

Follow your own advice please. You cannot call for people to be responsible in the first paragraph and then start slinging blame in the second.

[noel2499rk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGADFlswXGM...feature=channel

This video is taken at around 7 pm last night at democracy monument, this is when colonel Sansern says the first bombs were thrown by reds, no evidence of that here. Shows the reds having a party dancing and singing before troops start to move on them.

The only source saying the protesters were armed is the army, there were many international journalists on the scene none of whom are saying reds were armed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WxJcO2b6k0...feature=channel

Hard to see whats going on in this video but I don't speak Thai maybe someone can explain what the guy is shouting about.

In the UK we had an incident where the army opened fire on protesters 30 jan 1972 in Derry, 27 unarmed civilians were shot 13 killed and to this day the British government will not officially admit the truth. Which is that the soldiers were so wound up by their commanding officers to the apparent dangers they acted as soldiers are trained to in a war situation and started shooting.

So don't hold your breath on finding out the truth any time soon

[animatic]

If the government step down now, then mob rule has won. And no one can complain about the next mob that come out to try and force the government to step down.

Exactly the point what some see as weakness in Abhisit, others see as self control and long term views.

If the MOB can make Abhisit resign, then Thailand will forever be ruled by what ever mob wants to.

There was a demonstrable need to draw a line and never let in be crossed again, come what may.

This isn't love of elites or hunger to retain power or just lack of concern for little people,

but looking at the long view of what is best for Thailand, not the short term view of

what is politically expedient or easiest.

If being national leader was easy, ALL citizens would get a chance to rotate through the seat.

But it is not and takes the nerve and foresight to make tough decisions with long term fallout,

for the long term best interests of the nation. Letting a mob control the government is

in no ones interest except those that control the mob.

Allowing those that WOULD control the nation via mob tactics to take over,

is against the best interest of ANY country.

Jerry Y, I wish there was a CSN here, but there isn't, and the army is seen by Reds as the enemy,

there is no unity to maintain here around the army as national guardian of the borders.

I wish this were not the case, because of these two points your argument is useless in this context.

The battle lost before you started.

Edited April 11, 2010 by animatic

[chainarong]

Why blame just one side- it takes two to have a battle that leads to subsequent death and injuries, the "they threw the first stone" does not cut it.

The govt are equally to blame for a situation that got so badly out of hand by inept control and management.

A very sad day for the Thai people, my heart goes out to them at the time of the year when all should be joyous.

The only one to blame is not here to witness the complete disintergration of the land of smiles , this is now a hate syndrome that will take decades to remove , I can only hope that the person in Question is very proud of himself, that he has served the country well and is proud to call himself a Thai , YUK.

[Jerrytheyoung]

This Thread should not have been opened as it is in Contradiction with the aim of what the Nation has written in "our darkest day".

Yesterday morning, before any incident, I have underlined that Army should stay in its barracks because Army is a symbol of National Unity and should not be used against any fellow citizen- only reserved to external threats.

Young soldiers with several rounds of rubber and some (for warning) live ones, can confuse easily in the heat of a battle. Once everything begins to degenerate, everybody is warming up and the situatiion is escalading on both sides.

The decision to engage army (reluctant initially to be involved) is the key to this tragic saturday.

People engaged in a battle are loosing restraints it is well known: this kind of situation nearly always is degenerating.

The real responsability belongs to those who have created the situation, not to the fighters.

ARMY should have never been involved in this action.

Its people with limited knowledge like your self that have started this bloodshed it is a waste of time replying to your ridiculous post get back in your box and use your brain and do a bit more research.

What do you know about my knowledge? Yes I am not an English native speaking and my English is not always correct if it is your criticisms...

As other posters have told you it was the right way to handle the situation by using forces . What would you do hit them with your handbag ?

I am not alone thinking that way.

Yesterday a German was also shocked by the Army intervention that he was comparing to Former East Germany interventions

ARMY is the last resort, you should study some situations similar to the current one (Pre conditions of Spanish Civil war for example): the risks are existing of a drift to more serious issues. Soldiers have not to be put in such a situation when they have to fight their fellow citizens, particularly when conscripts.

In EIRE, the situation was different because it was a Separatist movement, National Unity was at risk, same in Southern Thailand: in such a case engagement of Army is normal. Yesterday it was a Political unrest motivated by Elections, Dissolution of Parliament,, Civil Affairs not involving the National Unity: typically Civil Affairs, domain of Police. Just by its presence , Army is escalating the degree of the Conflict at the opposite of a peace research. Can you understand?

(I am not young but for your information I have been a Navy Officer and I am not anti-militarist, just everybody at its place and doing what he has to do, in order to avoid confusion and escalation)

[noel2499rk]

http://www.youtube.com/user/thaifaq#p/a/u/0/ztF6hUryt88

I don't see many reds armed with grenades or guns here, they do seem to have a lot of water bottles though.

Edited April 11, 2010 by noel2499rk