These Bloody Clashes Must Cease Immediately: Thailand

[britmaveric]

laser sighted? Surely that isnt a M79 which doesnt have that capability. Now if its a M320 then that is a different story.

Anyways if the COL was targeted - seems someone leaked the info about troop movements. Wonder who that could be? (mind you if we are following a conspiracy theory)

[way2muchcoffee]

The spokesman of the Internal Security Operations Commanded said Monday that either an active or a retired military officer identified Col Romklao Thuwatham for a gunman to take him out with M79 grenade.

Pol Maj Gen Disthaporn Sasamit said a laser beam was pointed to the group of commanders before an MP79 was fire at them, killing Romklao and injuring other senior officers.

Disthaporn said it was not a coincidence but everything was planned by the other side.

The spokesman said the other side was angry that Romklao led troops to restore order during riots last year so the other side was angry and would like to take a revenge.

Disthaporn said gunmen also fired at military officers from buildings so everything was planned by the other side.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/ISOC-...o-30127130.html

Another interesting tidbit to spur on even more speculation....

So military commanders were sighted with a laser and hit with a grenade, while other officers were fired upon from rooftops.

We'd obviously need an expert to get into that, but i'd imagine the trajectory of a grenade compared to a high powered round would be quite different. Lasers travel in straight lines, as do bullets over relatively short distances, but a grenade? How would that work?

I read it as one team or individual using a laser to mark the location of the military commander on the ground, and a second team or individual who fired the grenade launcher.

[hanuman1]

The video evidence I've seen would seem to suggest that the snipers were not linked to the army. It shows initial shots from behind of Red Shirt fighters. This was immediately followed by a fusillade of weapons fire and fire bombs and grenades coming from the Red side. The Army side was in shock because they were standing there with weapons full of rubber bullets (which you wouldn't think they would be under your scenario). They almost immediately went into full retreat, which again, wouldn't happen if they'd just instigated an assault.

My scenario totally allows for the Thai troops on the street to be packing nothing but rubber bullets, even if we discount the evidence of the France 24 video as being the unusual 5.57mm plastic bullets. Again, maybe a military expert can help here, but it's not inconceivable that the snipers would have been from a different kind of unit to those in the street. And then we get into the realms of coordination and the effectiveness of the chain of command.

[hanuman1]

The spokesman of the Internal Security Operations Commanded said Monday that either an active or a retired military officer identified Col Romklao Thuwatham for a gunman to take him out with M79 grenade.

Pol Maj Gen Disthaporn Sasamit said a laser beam was pointed to the group of commanders before an MP79 was fire at them, killing Romklao and injuring other senior officers.

Disthaporn said it was not a coincidence but everything was planned by the other side.

The spokesman said the other side was angry that Romklao led troops to restore order during riots last year so the other side was angry and would like to take a revenge.

Disthaporn said gunmen also fired at military officers from buildings so everything was planned by the other side.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/ISOC-...o-30127130.html

Another interesting tidbit to spur on even more speculation....

So military commanders were sighted with a laser and hit with a grenade, while other officers were fired upon from rooftops.

We'd obviously need an expert to get into that, but i'd imagine the trajectory of a grenade compared to a high powered round would be quite different. Lasers travel in straight lines, as do bullets over relatively short distances, but a grenade? How would that work?

I read it as one team or individual using a laser to mark the location of the military commander on the ground, and a second team or individual who fired the grenade launcher.

I think you're talking about a level of organization that would out-do even most regular army units. We'd need to know more about Sah Deang's people to know if they were capable of that level of sophistication given the apparently ad-hoc nature of the engagement at the time.

[hanuman1]

Over half of my post was exactly about why the army would kill protesters. Not any old protesters, just the most visible ones.

As for making them look bad, that would only be the case if it was proven beyond all doubt. I'm no expert, but I believe a major objective of the 'successful' sniper is to remain hidden. And given the obvious downsides to it being proven beyond all reasonable doubt, together with the globally-observed tendency of armed forces to 'back their own' in cases of alleged impropriety it's no wonder we probably won't ever get to the bottom of this case.

Yes, high targets and snipers out of sight and all that. Your post talks about who, but not why.

Look at the posts on here. Protestor deaths make the army look bad - perception. What is the value to the army for that?

Since it's not universally accepted for various reasons that the army actually did kill those people, it could be argued that the army doesn't look bad as a result. You're talking about an outcome, whereas the incidents happened in a very fluid situation. If the result of those people being killed was that the protesters fled and no more casualties occurred, it could have been considered a relatively successful tactic, sad though it was in itself.

[way2muchcoffee]

The spokesman of the Internal Security Operations Commanded said Monday that either an active or a retired military officer identified Col Romklao Thuwatham for a gunman to take him out with M79 grenade.

Pol Maj Gen Disthaporn Sasamit said a laser beam was pointed to the group of commanders before an MP79 was fire at them, killing Romklao and injuring other senior officers.

Disthaporn said it was not a coincidence but everything was planned by the other side.

The spokesman said the other side was angry that Romklao led troops to restore order during riots last year so the other side was angry and would like to take a revenge.

Disthaporn said gunmen also fired at military officers from buildings so everything was planned by the other side.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/ISOC-...o-30127130.html

Another interesting tidbit to spur on even more speculation....

So military commanders were sighted with a laser and hit with a grenade, while other officers were fired upon from rooftops.

We'd obviously need an expert to get into that, but i'd imagine the trajectory of a grenade compared to a high powered round would be quite different. Lasers travel in straight lines, as do bullets over relatively short distances, but a grenade? How would that work?

I read it as one team or individual using a laser to mark the location of the military commander on the ground, and a second team or individual who fired the grenade launcher.

I think you're talking about a level of organization that would out-do even most regular army units. We'd need to know more about Sah Deang's people to know if they were capable of that level of sophistication given the apparently ad-hoc nature of the engagement at the time.

I wouldn't say it was ad hoc. Whoever did this was likely well-trained and connected. There were reports of leaks of army strategy. It is reasonable to think that whoever did this knew when the army was moving in and what their positions were. Seh Daeng may or may not have been involved, but he sure does have a lot of 'inside' information. In any case, you can be sure the faction of the army presently in power and running Saturday night's operation didn't target itself.

Edited April 12, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[hanuman1]

I think you're talking about a level of organization that would out-do even most regular army units. We'd need to know more about Sah Deang's people to know if they were capable of that level of sophistication given the apparently ad-hoc nature of the engagement at the time.

I wouldn't say it was ad hoc. Whoever did this was likely well-trained and connected. There were reports of leaks of army strategy. It is reasonable to think that whoever did this knew when the army was moving in and what their positions were. Seh Daeng may or may not have been involved, but he sure does have a lot of 'inside' information. In any case, you can be sure the faction of the army presently in power and running Saturday night's operation didn't target itself.

For sure. I haven't seen enough of that incident to pass comment. Were the commanders walking around with their stripes showing? Could someone not particularly well versed in army ranks identify them easily as commanding officers? Possibly not. In which case it's totally possible the attackers were knowledgeable. I wonder if Sah Daeng's beef is personal or truly idealogical? Or even financial? Any clues?

[kissdani]

The real TEMPORARY solution is for Abhisit to resign. I know it might not help long term, but he is the epicenter of violence now. We need to stop the blood flow now, we need to do something practical.

Abhisit, you must resign.

Giving in to blackmail, extortion, threats and demands never works. It only encourages the criminals to push for more, and increase the level of the threats they will utter, to get what they want.

I think Abhisit has played this very well, he has given the red shirts enough rope to hang themselves. They have shown themselves to be no more than thugs, paid to support a criminal who is on the run. Their leader has blood on his hands from deaths in the war against drugs, the Tak Bai massacre etc. What does he want? Why destroy Thailand? For greed? For power?

The sooner he is gone for good the better. Thailand can get on with the process of healing the rifts created by this megalomaniac.

"Giving in to blackmail, extortion, threats and demands never works" Really? It seemed to work out pretty well for the yellow shirts

Wasn't that the script book for Thaksins way to become a dictator? The coup just protected use from violence un the street and Thaksin declaring the SoE. Now somebody else using it as cookbook for his timed career as one of the worst PM Thailand ever had.

[TheOldWolf]

Some things we know for sure, other things we can speculate in.

What do we know for sure?

1: People on both sides were killed by live rounds.

2: Red side used live rounds and grenades.

3: Black cloth men with guns in the red crowd.

4: Red side used live rounds and grenades, molotov coctails etc

5: Army used teargas and rubber bullets

What is almost certain?

1: A third part was involved

2: There were snippers

Then we can speculate in many directions. The army could have used live rounds, but we don´t know that for sure. We need more information from the autospy.

[hanuman1]

Some things we know for sure, other things we can speculate in.

What do we know for sure?

1: People on both sides were killed by live rounds.

2: Red side used live rounds and grenades.

3: Black cloth men with guns in the red crowd.

4: Red side used live rounds and grenades, molotov coctails etc

5: Army used teargas and rubber bullets

What is almost certain?

1: A third part was involved

2: There were snippers

Then we can speculate in many directions. The army could have used live rounds, but we don´t know that for sure. We need more information from the autospy.

Dude, this is Thailand, we're not going to get any more information from the autospy - or the autopsy (sorry, couldn't help it - love the idea of an auto-spy, surely the way ahead in urban crowd suppression).

Also, you don't get extra marks for repeating red wrongdoings - only 1 for using live rounds and grenades.

I'm saying there were army snipers and there were experienced gunmen among the reds. Both sides had their more fanatical wings. Elements of both sides wanted a 'cutting edge'. Not that surprising once you think about it.

[TheOldWolf]

Some things we know for sure, other things we can speculate in.

What do we know for sure?

1: People on both sides were killed by live rounds.

2: Red side used live rounds and grenades.

3: Black cloth men with guns in the red crowd.

4: Red side used live rounds and grenades, molotov coctails etc

5: Army used teargas and rubber bullets

What is almost certain?

1: A third part was involved

2: There were snippers

Then we can speculate in many directions. The army could have used live rounds, but we don´t know that for sure. We need more information from the autospy.

Dude, this is Thailand, we're not going to get any more information from the autospy - or the autopsy (sorry, couldn't help it - love the idea of an auto-spy, surely the way ahead in urban crowd suppression).

Also, you don't get extra marks for repeating red wrongdoings - only 1 for using live rounds and grenades.

I'm saying there were army snipers and there were experienced gunmen among the reds. Both sides had their more fanatical wings. Elements of both sides wanted a 'cutting edge'. Not that surprising once you think about it.

I pointed out what is certain and what is almost certain. then you can speculate like you do.

[hanuman1]

I pointed out what is certain and what is almost certain. then you can speculate like you do.

I don't doubt that black-clad people in the red ranks had guns, but I may have missed video/pictures of someone in red brandishing a rifle. Has anyone got footage of this?

[way2muchcoffee]

I pointed out what is certain and what is almost certain. then you can speculate like you do.

I don't doubt that black-clad people in the red ranks had guns, but I may have missed video/pictures of someone in red brandishing a rifle. Has anyone got footage of this?

Yes. Seen it. But I wouldn't want to search through the 500 or so pages on these various threads to find it.

[hanuman1]

Someone on this thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Bangkok-10-D...&start=1100

has very kindly spent time looking into the likelyhood of the soldier filmed in the France24 video, seen here:

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

using plastic (rubber is impossible for this weapon) bullets on the demonstrators.

He found this:

--------------------------

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04...semi-wadcutter/

Seems they don't use them any more - too dangerous. Also, after the initial batches were made the load was reduced, so that the rounds became single shot - i.e. the gun must be manually re-loaded between discharges. I can't be bothered to look at it again, but I if i remember rightly in the France24 clip, the guy fired a few consecutive shots without touching the slide - which would (to me anyway) suggest heavier ammo. Unless of course the Israelis threw their old surplus stocks of initial batch ammo in with this year's order for 30,000 shiny new TAR - 21's! smile.gif Anyway, that's my last word on the subject. An interesting web-search though - learned all I'll ever need to know about 5.56mm ammunition....

--------------------------

Suggests the use of live rounds by the army, fired horizontally (there is also some footage in the clip of a rifle being fired at an angle that may have gone slightly above the protestors, but I'm talking about the rounds discharged when the gun was dead level, near the end.)

[TheOldWolf]

I can´t remember i have heard of any red leader dening there where live rounds fired from their side

[traderjm]

You are correct there Red! A week ago Abhisit could have brokered early elections within 90 days that might have appeaased the red shirts and saved him some face, however now it would appear that Abhisit will need to resign in disgrace

Love it when the revisionists come out to play.

When exactly was there a chance to offer up elections in 90 days?

The gov't offered to cut a year off their legal term.

The REDS have NEVER changed one iota from their nonsensical demand of 15 days.

Please point me to your source where the REDS say they would have been happy with 90 days?

It would be very nearly impossible to put the election process into play and complete it in 90 days anyway. Let alone the fact that giving in to terrorists just shows future terrorists that they can have their way with enough lies and propaganda...

I trust YOU do NOT live here??

[JRinger]

Who said History doesn't repeat itself ?

The Wall of Fame in the Museum of Nonthaburi honours one of Nonthaburi’s famous sons who gained national recognition.

Plaek Khittisangkha who was born on 14 July 1897 in the city district of Nonthaburi. He became an army cadet at the Royal Thai Military Academy and later went on for further training in France.

He later adopted his title as his name. History remembers him a Field Marshall Phibun Songkhram, a key member of the group that staged the coup in 1932 that changed Thailand to a constitutional monarchy.

He became the third Prime Minister of Thailand from 1938 – 1944. In 1948 he became Prime Minister again until he was ousted 1957 and had to flee the country. He never lived to see his native Nonthaburi again. He lived in exile in Japan until his death in 1964.