Thai Election Commission Calls For Dissolution Of Democrat Party

[Publicus]

Or, in this case, throw out the whole machine or blow up the dam_n building that houses the machine and start over.

Pol Pot tried that. It gets very ugly.

Yes, a significant faction (the Maoists) of the reds are talking that way, and yet we STILL have westerners showing support for that movement. It boggles the mind.

Yes Jingthing, however I prefer to call that particular faction of the Red Shirts Naxalites - it has a more contemporary ring and better fits their rhetoric and, now, their tactics also.

MODS-----Obviously a double post so kindly delete as appropriate, thanks.....Publicus.

I wouldn't try to elevate the desperation of the monomaniac, money and power driven Redshirt-Thaksin mob to the level of the Naxalites of India. The Naxalites envigage a new world order, a new global socioeconomic order along the lines of Trotsky in the young USSR and, as there and then, the Naxalite movement since its origins in the 1960s has become more along the lines of Stalin and his mindset, posing a direct and serious threat to the democracy of India. The Redshirts have their grievances but they are about Thaksin, whether Thaksin can control Thailand by returning to it, which many Redshirts now doubt, or control Thailand from abroad, which is perfectly acceptable and the realistic goal of the Redshirts.

It is the latter aspect of the Naxalites, their disregard of, their contempt towards democratic systems and structures of governement that we can see in the Redshirts and that, over time (even from the beginning) we have repeatedly and convncingly seen in Thaksin. It is Thaksin himself who absurdly and cynically compared himself to Gandhi, not any poster at TVF. It is Thaksin who said the country is run by psychotic homosexuals but it is Thaksin himself who is psychotic and the meglomaniac. It is Thaksin who won't pick himself up, dust himself off and get on with his life. Thaksin is not obsessed about lifting the rural poor of Thailand out of their relative impovershment, nor is Thaksin driven to lose his sanity in pursuit of the country's lowest socioeconomic grouping. Thaksin is possessed by and with himself, money for himself, power for himself. The Redshirts are interested in themselves and in themselves only, but are not the only group in the country who are guilty of this blind selfishness, as the elites themselves have their own narrow one dimensional focus.

As a republican I don't fear a radical change. In fact both big deal personalities of Thailand have to go before Thailand can begin to take its first baby steps towards some reconciliation, common understanding and rationally shared purpose. But alas, I wander too far afield from the present irreconcilable situation and circumstance.

Abhisit may well have to step aside but for whom? To those who have not been regular readers of TVF or who have not been active posters over some appreciable period of time, I would point out that we have long since recognized that Thai culture, society, civilization is incapable of producing a Mandella, a Suu Kyi, a Havel, a Walesa or any transformative leader of stature and who has the credibility nationally or globally to be the focal point to lead the country into a 20th century society and civilization (yes, twentieth century).

That the army is divided is not a news bulletin. I've posted previously that my amazement is that the conscripts who are the rank and file continue to obey and follow the generals when in fact the conscripts are those Thais who derive from the same socioeconomic status as the Redshirts. The one poine from the BBC analysis presented in this thread is that there is in fact a new division in the armed forces, which is that the rank and file are now viewed by the generals as less than reliable than in the past in following orders against such groups as the Redshirts. Still, as the BBC piece pointed out, the army always has elite units on which it can rely, units which by number/name are the small portion of the army who execute the coups while the mass of the army and its units look on. The present question is whether the large mass of the non-elite army units who always are the onlookers in uniform would continue to accept that status and passive role.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Publicus

[geriatrickid]

you probably meant novice as neophyte is a Catholic term - I can be pedantic this early in the morning - shame on me!

ne·o·phyte (n-ft)

n.

1. A recent convert to a belief; a proselyte.

2. A beginner or novice: a neophyte at politics.

3.

a. Roman Catholic Church A newly ordained priest.

b. A novice of a religious order or congregation.

Yo teach, I think neophyte was acceptable. Perhaps it is you thinking of beginner nuns which are termed novices. Naughty boy are you?

[ChiangMaiFun]

you probably meant novice as neophyte is a Catholic term - I can be pedantic this early in the morning - shame on me!

ne·o·phyte (n-ft)

n.

1. A recent convert to a belief; a proselyte.

2. A beginner or novice: a neophyte at politics.

3.

a. Roman Catholic Church A newly ordained priest.

b. A novice of a religious order or congregation.

Yo teach, I think neophyte was acceptable. Perhaps it is you thinking of beginner nuns which are termed novices. Naughty boy are you?

In the context of Christianity, the term often refers to:

1. new convert to the religion, in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches an adult convert is considered a neophyte for one year after conversion. Roman Catholic neophytes are considered full members of the Church, but may not act as sponsors for others planning to join,2. newly ordained priest,3. person who recently took a monastic vow.

As we are in a Buddhist country Novice was better - but I was only teasing dude

[geriatrickid]

As has already been stated, it wasn't the size of the money involved that was the issue, it was more to do with the fact that it was against the law and added to which, Samak lied in court. No matter what the offence, be it captial one murder or a parking ticket, as a PM, if you lie in court, there should be consequences. Perhaps you disagree.

And i only mentioned the sum involved to correct someone else's misinformation. Perhaps you would prefer misinformation like this to go uncorrected?

The court stretched the definition of an employee. Yes, it was used to nail him, even though he was an independent contractor. That decision I believe was politically motivated. However, i will not argue the decision of that court, which btw should make a lot of employers think twice now. It set a precedent and a smart lawyer can use it to obtain protection and compensation for contract employees since they can now be considered true employees. BTW, Samak had already resigned by the time of the judgement .

The irony is that the issan party - the true red shirts - withdrew their backing if him so he couldn't run for the PM position again.

Will you be as vociferous in your pursuit of Abhisit as he did benefit from the Democrat Party's receipt of funds?

Edited April 14, 2010 by geriatrickid

[geriatrickid]

As we are in a Buddhist country Novice was better - but I was only teasing dude

i know, but I was having dirty thoughts of novices and rulers and beatings, and oh my, I was having a continental fantasy.

Nevermind.

[rixalex]

As has already been stated, it wasn't the size of the money involved that was the issue, it was more to do with the fact that it was against the law and added to which, Samak lied in court. No matter what the offence, be it captial one murder or a parking ticket, as a PM, if you lie in court, there should be consequences. Perhaps you disagree.

And i only mentioned the sum involved to correct someone else's misinformation. Perhaps you would prefer misinformation like this to go uncorrected?

The court stretched the definition of an employee. Yes, it was used to nail him, even though he was an independent contractor.

Nothing was stretched. The law is very clear. Work for a company for x number of years and by law you are considered an employee.

That decision I believe was politically motivated.

Getting a politician prosectuted usually requires special motivation otherwise their lawyers simply find and exploit loop-holes. I only wish all such cases were pursued with the same conviction from the relevant authorities.

Will you be as vociferous in your pursuit of Abhisit as he did benefit from the Democrat Party's receipt of funds?

If i need to be. Remains to be seen whether Abhisit, should he be found guilty, will have an army of internet apologists reeling of nonsense day after day, week after week, year after year, like "sure Abhisit is guilty but....".

You ignored my point about having a PM lie in court. Is that acceptable for you? Is that alone not reason enough for him to have to step down?

Edited April 14, 2010 by rixalex

[webfact]

Democrats not trembling about dissolution case

BANGKOK (NNT) -- The Democrats do not panic over the resolution of the Election Commission (EC) to dissolve the party, Spokesperson to the Democrat Party Leader, Thepthai Senpong said.

Mr Thepthai stated that the Democrat MPs have spent Songkran holidays making provincial visits in order to create an understanding and inform all party members nationwide of facts about the dissolution case.

The EC voted in a majority or 4:1 on Monday to dissolve the ruling Democrat on grounds of receiving 258 million THB in donation which is banned by the constitution. The decision to dissolve the party for misusing supporting budget given by the EC was reportedly unanimous.

The spokesperson added that a majority of the party members do not feel anxious about the EC's resolution and will not make any movements against the EC as the cases must be processed in line with the judiciary system.

Nevertheless, Mr Thepthai believed that facts collected by the party and relevant documents would help the Democrat get away from the alleged cases.

The spokesperson said the party’s meeting had not yet discussed the idea to set up a new party, adding that a closed group of people might talk about the matter.

Earlier, Deputy Prime Minister overseeing security affairs and Democrat Party Secretary-General, Suthep Thaugsuban, on Tuesday admitted that a new name for the Democrat Party has been prepared in case the party is dissolved by the order of the court.

-- NNT 2010-04-14

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[LaoPo]

Arise, you prisoners of starvation!

Arise, you wretched of the earth!

For justice thunders condemnation:

A better world's in birth!

No more tradition's chains shall bind us,

Arise you slaves, no more in thrall!

Nice song....

LaoPo

The Internationale is a revolutionary anthem of the working class.

You're saying...what I wrote. No need to repeat me...

LaoPo

[Neurath]

"I wouldn't try to elevate the desperation of the monomaniac, money and power driven Redshirt-Thaksin mob to the level of the Naxalites of India...."

Quite agree. But the reference was to a particular faction of the Red Shirts (Mor Wengists) not the whole mob or indeed T.S. who exhibits much more an authoritarian, kleptomaniacal narcissism.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Neurath

[yoshiwara]

Arise, you prisoners of starvation!

Arise, you wretched of the earth!

For justice thunders condemnation:

A better world's in birth!

No more tradition's chains shall bind us,

Arise you slaves, no more in thrall!

Nice song....

LaoPo

The Internationale is a revolutionary anthem of the working class.

You're saying...what I wrote. No need to repeat me...

LaoPo

You didn't respond to the rest of the message.

Fancy that!

Here it is again.

Have another go:

Your slipping in of the term suppressed classes has no reference either in the activities of the First or Second Communist Internationals.

Not that you would know the difference between the First, Second or even the Third International which was corrupted by Stalin.

The Thaksin red supporting Thai Communist Party has of course roots in the Stalinist tradition.

If you want an anthem more suited to the leadership of the Thai reds, this version of the Red Flag is more appropriate:

'I've got the foreman's job at last.

You can stick the red flag up your ar_e'

[kissdani]

Or, in this case, throw out the whole machine or blow up the dam_n building that houses the machine and start over.

Pol Pot tried that. It gets very ugly.

Yes, a significant faction (the Maoists) of the reds are talking that way, and yet we STILL have westerners showing support for that movement. It boggles the mind.

not back to the Maoists surely? jeeze...

Sooner or later we will hear arguments that goes like this:

"OMG, red leaders are Asians". Evidently evil, govt must destroy them.

What a irony that right wing Americans support them. Read my posting history, I am tingtong, I never said I am not a stupid racist, I vote for Obama.

Edited April 14, 2010 by kissdani

[Jingthing]

Sooner or later we will here arguments that goes like this:

"OMG, red leaders are Asians". Evidently evil, govt must destroy them.

What a irony that right wing Americans support them. Read my posting history, I am tingtong, I never said I am not a stupid racist, I vote for Obama.

That was pretty funny, dude.

[Publicus]

Or, in this case, throw out the whole machine or blow up the dam_n building that houses the machine and start over.

Pol Pot tried that. It gets very ugly.

Thaksin and TRT were in process of trying that too, even if figuratively, then got decisively derailed. Since the derailment it's only become literal and of course worse and more ugly witness Pattaya, Songkran and up to the present with only more of the literal in the works.

[LaoPo]

You didn't respond to the rest of the message.

Fancy that!

Here it is again.

Have another go:

Your slipping in of the term suppressed classes has no reference either in the activities of the First or Second Communist Internationals.

Not that you would know the difference between the First, Second or even the Third International which was corrupted by Stalin.

The Thaksin red supporting Thai Communist Party has of course roots in the Stalinist tradition.

If you want an anthem more suited to the leadership of the Thai reds, this version of the Red Flag is more appropriate:

'I've got the foreman's job at last.

You can stick the red flag up your ar_e'

Of course not; there's no need for me to respond to this kind of nonsense.

Your so called version is below the belt and inappropriate in a civilized discussion.

LaoPo

[yoshiwara]

You didn't respond to the rest of the message.

Fancy that!

Here it is again.

Have another go:

Your slipping in of the term suppressed classes has no reference either in the activities of the First or Second Communist Internationals.

Not that you would know the difference between the First, Second or even the Third International which was corrupted by Stalin.

The Thaksin red supporting Thai Communist Party has of course roots in the Stalinist tradition.

If you want an anthem more suited to the leadership of the Thai reds, this version of the Red Flag is more appropriate:

'I've got the foreman's job at last.

You can stick the red flag up your ar_e'

Of course not; there's no need for me to respond to this kind of nonsense.

Your so called version is below the belt and inappropriate in a civilized discussion.

LaoPo

Apparently you have no bottle.

Unless the bottle has petrol in it.

[Publicus]

You didn't respond to the rest of the message.

Fancy that!

Here it is again.

Have another go:

Your slipping in of the term suppressed classes has no reference either in the activities of the First or Second Communist Internationals.

Not that you would know the difference between the First, Second or even the Third International which was corrupted by Stalin.

The Thaksin red supporting Thai Communist Party has of course roots in the Stalinist tradition.

If you want an anthem more suited to the leadership of the Thai reds, this version of the Red Flag is more appropriate:

'I've got the foreman's job at last.

You can stick the red flag up your ar_e'

Of course not; there's no need for me to respond to this kind of nonsense.

Your so called version is below the belt and inappropriate in a civilized discussion.

LaoPo

Apparently you have no bottle.

Unless the bottle has petrol in it.

And it's exploded in the tip of the red flag .

[Roadman]

PS:

I'm really puzzled what the The Nationale, the French Anthem or L'Internationale, has to do with the McCarthyism in the USA I wrote about...

I am not sure if you realize that The Nationale was a socialist, communist and anarchist anthem ?

But maybe you're talking the American version of The Nationale.

But, if so, I am more and more puzzled about your opinions since even the American version of The Nationale was about the working and suppressed classes...not exactly the group of people you're standing for in Thailand....

Arise, you prisoners of starvation!

Arise, you wretched of the earth!

For justice thunders condemnation:

A better world's in birth!

No more tradition's chains shall bind us,

Arise you slaves, no more in thrall!

Nice song....

LaoPo

It is a song of close type that I have sung and would continue singing to. Unfortunately it is some of those (the one's near the top with their "black" free roaming goons) that have delivered it in blood that even those Isaanites in the Reds lines with just cause of betterment should be stepping back from. But hey what the hel_l, Khun Advisior Taksy can take out 2 or 3 thou, so one can access that there is scan regard for life among this group. But from their press for democracy I get lost and go around and around with "but to get better education, health, working conditions you actually have to have that life that there is scan regard for".

[Rinrada]

THE RED FLAG...to the tune of Tannenbaum..by James O'Connell, 1899...FYI

The people's flag is deepest red

It shrouded oft our martyred dead;

And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold

Their hearts' blood dyed to every fold.

Then raise the scarlet standard high!

Beneath its folds we'll live and die.

Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer

We'll keep the red flag flying here.

even after 110 years its still needs to be sung....

Thailand Go Forward.....

..nothing to lose but your ...as they say.....

[nakachalet]

for those who are saying or believing that the redshirts are only seeking democracy and they have nothing to do with the escaped prisoner tuksin....

during the last video link, the escaped prisoner tuksin is promising every death redshirt a 100,000 bath donation to the family....

and thru another thai financial newscast.... since the withdrawal of some 2 bil baht by tuksin's family....

last week, a few days before last saturday mayhem.... some 200 mil has been dispatched to several isaan politicians....

are the redshirts really fighting just for democracy and equality in class....?

you be the judge....

[elkangorito]

The Thai Electoral Commission & flags/anthems of all nations? What obscurities these are!!!!!

My question is, why has it taken so long to suddenly come up with these 'electoral injustices'? The 'authorities' have had over a year in which to check this.

[xminator]

The Thai Electoral Commission & flags/anthems of all nations? What obscurities these are!!!!!

My question is, why has it taken so long to suddenly come up with these 'electoral injustices'? The 'authorities' have had over a year in which to check this.

Lets say 5 years, seeing that both cases originates from 2005.

Democrats masterplan was to have the EC chair man decide the case himself. Now the Democrat legal team will sue the EC chair man for listening to the other members of EC.

Thankfully we have the other case, with a much smaller million bahts, but with a 5-0 vote and dissolution of the Democrats. That one will be harder to dodge.

I guess the fight on the 200 million case is to make sure whoever have that money right now dont have to give them back...

[LaoPo]

You didn't respond to the rest of the message.

Fancy that!

Here it is again.

Have another go:

Your slipping in of the term suppressed classes has no reference either in the activities of the First or Second Communist Internationals.

Not that you would know the difference between the First, Second or even the Third International which was corrupted by Stalin.

The Thaksin red supporting Thai Communist Party has of course roots in the Stalinist tradition.

If you want an anthem more suited to the leadership of the Thai reds, this version of the Red Flag is more appropriate:

'I've got the foreman's job at last.

You can stick the red flag up your ar_e'

Of course not; there's no need for me to respond to this kind of nonsense.

Your so called version is below the belt and inappropriate in a civilized discussion.

LaoPo

Apparently you have no bottle.

Unless the bottle has petrol in it.

And it's exploded in the tip of the red flag .

Aaahh...Kindergarden I presume, reading the level of intellect shown?

Now, do behave you hear......don't hurt each other and remember: be on time for supper and wash your hands !

LaoPo

[Publicus]

LaoPo, one learns not to expect wit or humor but rather and instead feeble attempts at condesention and a self appointed superior holier than thou aloof post by the one who introduced all of this internationale singing and Maoist-Redshirt-Thaksin false comraderie, that in so doing got himself into a hellof a fix which has burned and stung to the point of being reduced to withdrawal or to wander desperately and vacuuously into assinine [sic] and absurd sillyness. This IMHO is my observation and IMHO let's try to get back to meaningful discusion of the dissolution recommendation rather than citing dogmas, failed ideologies and third rate musicals.

[123ace]

Seems like corruption is an everyday occurence in thai politics. Even Abhisit is not squeaky clean. Is anyone?

Corruption is in every country... it is not just in Thailand.

Finally, things will be better and Thai people will have to right to elect a government (for the last two years, there was no elected government).

Truth wins at last...

Why do you call yourself Ajarn? have you lectured at a Thai University??

[kissdani]

PARTY DISSOLUTION

Court outlines dissolution case against Democrats

By THE NATION

Published on July 8, 2010

The Constitution Court yesterday outlined five legal issues vital to form its verdict on the Democrat Party dissolution case before scheduling two key dates - July 28 for examination of evidence, and August 9 for the hearing of witnesses.

The high court will hear testimony from 50 prosecution witnesses and 30 from the defence. The inquiry is scheduled to take place on Mondays until it is completed.

At yesterday's session, presiding judge Udomsak Nitimontri explained the charges and the procedure for the judicial inquiry.

The ruling party has been charged with wrongful spending of Bt29 million in funds allocated by the Election Commission and earmarked for party development. Under the Political Parties Act, the offence is punishable by party dissolution.

The five legal issues central to the inquiry are:

1. Whether the proceedings to lay charges are lawful and proper.

2. Whether the alleged offence involving the Democrat Party falls under the suspended 1998 legislation on political parties or the 2007 Political Parties Act (pertinent provisions were revised following the 2006 coup).

3. Whether the Democrats carried out spending plans for the 2006 fiscal year as approved by the EC.

4. Whether the Democrats filed financial records for 2008 that reflected actual spending.

5. If the party is punished with dissolution, should party executives be penalised with a five-year ban against them holding office and voting. And if so, should the ban be invoked by the Political Parties Act or by the decree from the 2006 coup?

The prosecution and defence testimonies are expected to shed light on factual information related to the party's financial records and its spending.

Democrat chief adviser Chuan Leekpai led the defence team. He voiced confidence the ruling party could win a favourable verdict.

"My party is ready to explain all charges because it has done nothing wrong," he said.

Chuan said he was not in a position to critique the EC for its handling of the case.

The EC opted to prosecute the ruling party via two tracts. It chose to directly petition the high court for an offence stemming from alleged wrongful spending.

It had asked the Office of the Attorney General to prosecute a separate case aimed at dissolution of the party by combining two alleged violations - one on the wrongful spending and another for allegedly rigging the records in relation to Bt258 million in campaign contributions.

A joint panel from the EC and the OAG has been set up to complete the case review after public prosecutors deemed it necessary to collect additional evidence. This has triggered uncertainty about whether the case will be heard by the high court.

Meanwhile, Democrat MP Wirat Kalayasiri, who is part of the party's legal team, said yesterday the lawyers would challenge the EC's proceedings in laying the charges. He also pointed out that in 2005 when the alleged offence was committed, the Political Party Act in effect at that time did not include a dissolution penalty against the offending political party. That penalty was added in the current Political Party Act of 2007.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/07/08/politics/Court-outlines-dissolution-case-against-Democrats-30133318.html

-- The Nation July 8, 2010

[Rucharee]

Seems like corruption is an everyday occurence in thai politics. Even Abhisit is not squeaky clean. Is anyone?

Corruption is in every country... it is not just in Thailand.

Finally, things will be better and Thai people will have to right to elect a government (for the last two years, there was no elected government).

Truth wins at last...

Why do you call yourself Ajarn? have you lectured at a Thai University??

Mark is 100% clean. Thaksin is otherwise.

[kissdani]

Meanwhile, Democrat MP Wirat Kalayasiri, who is part of the party's legal team, said yesterday the lawyers would challenge the EC's proceedings in laying the charges. He also pointed out that in 2005 when the alleged offence was committed, the Political Party Act in effect at that time did not include a dissolution penalty against the offending political party. That penalty was added in the current Political Party Act of 2007.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/07/08/politics/Court-outlines-dissolution-case-against-Democrats-30133318.html

-- The Nation July 8, 2010

He is maybe right, but if the courts would follow this arguments it would just open the box for another round of protests against double standards.

Instead of coming up with whitewash attempts and lame excuses the Democrats should prove that they are the morally better and welcome and applaud the dissolution and ban of its leaders as the consequences they have to face, even if there is only a doubt that they are not 110% clean. Good politicians don't come under suspicion by the EC for nothing.

They should also request much harsher penalties and punishment as the law actually demands. As everybody knows a dissolution and a ban is actually not a solution nor keeps the culprits off.

How about voluntary to agree to be be resettled to a permanent live firing zone? Contribute and re-paying to the society with wearing some bright colored shirts in an area where the countries best peace keeping snipers can practice and improve their work?

That would definitely bring any discussion about double standards to end, for ever.

Edited July 8, 2010 by kissdani