Buddhist Conversion

[The Dan Sai Kid]

My wife is keen for me to convert to Buddhism - has anyone ever done this, what did it involve?

[Abandon]

There is no real conversion process like other religions where you will denounce other religions and accept your chosen one (religion not wife).

In the Buddha's day one took the 'refuges'

I go to the Buddha ... Dhamma ... Sangha ... for refuge, repeated 3 times.

He would accept people from other disciplines without restriction, though if they had a former strong tie with a different teacher he would give a 3 month probation period so that they could think about and consider their change of heart.

Really, the way one becomes a Buddhist is by keeping the precepts, but best keep quiet about that one as most Thai's do not keep them.

Otherwise, 'becoming a Buddhist' in Thai societies eyes means being willing to go to the temple and participate in the various activites there.

If you are really interested for yourself then take up some books to read, or take a meditation course. I should say that while most westerners consider meditation to be the real qualification, there are lots of good, devout Buddhists who do not meditate.

[wix]

Formally speaking you might officially take refuge with a monk. Basically you would make a small offering and then recite the three refuges and five precepts. At a more fundamental level take some time to learn more about Buddhism. There are many good books and you can find a good teacher in Thailand if you look around.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

Thanks for the advice - it all seems relatively painless - I 'm sort of on the way already.

[chownah]

Since becoming a Buddhist is so undefined perhaps you should discuss with your wife how you should do it....since she wants you to do it it would probably be best if you did it in a way that seems legitimate to her...as well as to yourself of course

[The Dan Sai Kid]

Good idea. I did discuss it a bit - I asked if I would have to become a monk - she thought that idea was so funny. Thanks for everyone's input so far - it's all been very positive!

[The Dan Sai Kid]

why you doing this ..? what you  mean by this  ?  if you want to go to paradise , and you thinks that Buddhism take you there in easy way , you wrong  . in this case no  one can help you  for this traveling front of God . you see around your self , a billion of people of this earth from different religion , and all are sure one 100 % that they are going  to paradise . but no one of them ready to died . changing of religion not help  you at all . even make you more confuse and low moral in future . be what ever you are and start love every things of this earth . even your enemy .and tray to know how to understand your self .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so much for the positive input...

I'm going to be living in Thailand long term, I feel that exploring Buddhism will be a way to help me assimilate into the culture. At the moment I have still to explore what Buddhism can offer me. At the moment I am only looking for advice from people that have done something similar already. You have made these presumptions that - frankly - are none of your business.

Look, I've been to many countries in the world, where different people practice religion in many different ways and I feel that buddhism says a lot more to me than anything else. Should I remain a christian just because of an accident of birth? Even when I don't practice christianity anyway. In the past 5 years I've not even been to church, yet I have visited the temple in my wife's village may times.

Edited June 4, 2005 by Grant

[Gohonzon]

Hi Grant.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to read on the basics of Buddhism first. I hope that this doesn't sound patronising, because I'm offer this advice due to the very nature of your original question about converting to Buddhism. This question suggests that you haven't really grasped what Buddhism is as yet.

Essentially Buddhism has three main components: Faith. Practice and Study. Faith is not the superstitious kind that you find in religions that put trust in some external force or God. But in the benefits that we see through our practice. This gives us the faith of conviction (based upon evidence) to continue in our practice, and study helps us to both understand and reinforces the previous two. The three are mutually dependent in the same way as are the Buddha, Dharma/Dhamma (Truth) and Sangha (fellow practicioners-either specific or general.)

Practice can take several forms. From meditation to chanting (my own practice*) and a mixture of both.

*A link explaining the basics of my own tradition can be be found in my signature (below).

Essentially, and to all intents and purposes, one becomes a Buddhist when one begins to practice Buddhism.

It's also of great benefit to find a teacher who can guide you through your own practice. It is of course possible to practice alone...but spritual growth will be slower and problems less easily resolved. But of course the ultimate teacher is the Law, or Dharma/Dhamma,that is, the Truth.

I hope that this helps. And best wishes.

*URL in signature removed as per forum rules.*

Edited June 6, 2005 by sabaijai

[camerata]

I'm going to be living in Thailand long term, I feel that exploring Buddhism will be a way to help me assimilate into the culture.  At the moment I have still to explore what Buddhism can offer me.  At  the moment I am only looking for advice from people that have done something similar already.

Hi Grant.

If you are going to be living upcountry, it's probably true that if you participate in the various activities and rituals of "popular Buddhism" you'll be more easily accepted by society. I assume this is the main concern of your wife. The popular idea of Buddhism is praying at the temple, participating in various rituals, being respectful to monks, trying to follow the Five Precepts, and making merit by giving alms to monks or donations to temples with the objective of ensuring a better situation in the next life. I think all of this could be done with a clear conscience, even by someone who considers himself a Christian.

But I think this stuff will be of limited help if you are looking for a way of life or spiritual path that offers more than Christianity or Agnosticism. For that, you could start by reading a few books about Theravada Buddhism (the type practised in Thailand), preferably written by someone who is either a westerner or familiar with western culture.

As "nuts and bolts" starter books, I'd recommend The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Buddhist Wisdom and The Buddhist Handbook. Both cover the basic principles and practices in the main Buddhist traditions, the life of the Buddha and the spread of Buddhism throughout the world, including the west. The former is glossy, with lots of photos and descriptions of how to meditate and prostrate - more of a quick-starter guide. The latter is a bit deeper and more comprehensive on the history of Buddhism, but contains little on meditation (and no photos) since the author believes one should have the guidance of a teacher for this. I like them both.

Another must-read is Old Path White Clouds, the life story of the Buddha based on the Theravada scriptures and with most of the myth and legend cut away. Written by a well-known Vietnamese monk/scholar, it's very easy to read and gives an inspiring picture of what the Buddha achieved and how he overcame various problems to achieve it.

Once you've got the basics out of the way, you'll be ready to read something inspiring, the kind of book that really draws you into Buddhism and speaks to you as a westerner and your particular view of life. I'd suggest starting off with The Mind and the Way : Buddhist Reflections on Life by Ajahn Sumedho, an American monk trained in the Thai Forest Tradition and currently the abbot of a monastery in England. Also True Freedom, by Ajahn Jagaro, another western monk of the same tradition.

I think these 4-5 books will give you a pretty fair idea of the core beliefs of Buddhism and how it can improve your life. Be warned, though, it will be somewhat different (i.e. deeper and more complex) to what your wife has learned at school and by socialization.

[Gohonzon]

Actually having thought about this, it occurs to me that what you might need is

1) something specifically written on Buddhism and its role within Thai society.

2) a more general and accessibly written overview of Buddhism

So ,therefore I'd recommend both of the below

GETTING TO KNOW BUDDHISM : Plamintr, Sunthorn

 

ISBN : 9748908631

A Thai Buddhist teacher gives a detailed outline of the teachings and history of Buddhism, with a special emphasis on its role in Thai society.

................................................................................

.....................................................

BUDDHISM: A Very Short Introduction: Keown, Damien***

 

ISBN : 0192853864

 

An excellent, clear and concise introduction.

"Damien Keown`s book is a readable and wonderfully lucid introduction to one of mankind's most beautiful, profound and compelling systems of wisdom. His impressive powers of explanation help us to come to terms with a vital contemporary reality." The Sunday Times.

"An excellent and highly readable account of a complex and multifarious subject. Even if you were to read nothing else, you would probably come away with a fair idea of what Buddhism is about."New Straits Times.

***Particularly recommended

Both books are priced below 800 baht. And should you find difficulty in obtaining either, then they definately have both at www.wisdom-books.com , and perhaps at Amazon?

Edited June 5, 2005 by Gohonzon

[amal2029]

why you doing this ..? what you  mean by this  ?  if you want to go to paradise , and you thinks that Buddhism take you there in easy way , you wrong  . in this case no  one can help you   for this traveling front of God . you see around your self , a billion of people of this earth from different religion , and all are sure one 100 % that they are going  to paradise . but no one of them ready to died . changing of religion not help  you at all . even make you more confuse and low moral in future . be what ever you are and start love every things of this earth . even your enemy .and tray to know how to understand your self .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so much for the positive input...

I'm going to be living in Thailand long term, I feel that exploring Buddhism will be a way to help me assimilate into the culture. At the moment I have still to explore what Buddhism can offer me. At the moment I am only looking for advice from people that have done something similar already. You have made these presumptions that - frankly - are none of your business.

Look, I've been to many countries in the world, where different people practice religion in many different ways and I feel that buddhism says a lot more to me than anything else. Should I remain a christian just because of an accident of birth? Even when I don't practice christianity anyway. In the past 5 years I've not even been to church, yet I have visited the temple in my wife's village may times.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is to my understanding that u want to be a buddhist to keep ur wife happy! Isn't it unfare to call "this is none of ur business" as ur the one who post it here...

[Thomas_Merton]

Advice on what to do depends very much on where you are now in your spiritual path.

If you come from a traditional Catholic background, there are many writers who attempt to show a way in which the teachings of the Lord Buddha can be integrated into a Christian way of life.

Any of the later works of Thomas Merton bridge the gap between the two faiths. Or his works on contemplation open up an understanding of this element of Buddhism to the western mind.

Zen Catholicism by Dom Aeldred Graham is also a good book on integrating the two faiths.

Personally I find the works of Alan Watts invaluable for creating an insight into Buddhism.

There is a link http://www.faith.com/sites/best/?page=1& based on Watts teachings which can be used as a portal for other sites relating to this subject. The beauty of this site is that there are also links to all of the major faiths, should you need to clarify some points.

But basically Buddhism (and Christianity) is an uncomplicated faith, based upon simple principles. The only problems you or I have with them are caused by our human frailty and our desires - one of which is our desire to over intellectualise.

Good Luck.

[Gohonzon]

But basically Buddhism (and Christianity) is an uncomplicated faith, based upon simple principles. The only problems you or I have with them are caused by our human frailty and our desires - one of which is our desire to over intellectualise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thomas_Merton

How can faith be based upon principles? Surely faith is simply believing what you have heard. In Buddism the acting upon principles is aspiring to act by The Six Perfections as expounded by Buddha Sakyamuni. I, of couse, speak as a Mahayanist.

Further , there are four Faiths in the Present (steps of belief). Understanding by Faith in a Single moment ; Understanding the Meaning; Disseminating it to Others and Entering into Deep Faith.

Buddhism (unlike other 'religions' who's definition of faith is more akin to that of a superstition than otherwise) does indeed look for intellectual evidence of faith, rather than just accepting blindly. Theravada Buddhism is highly analytical, and also seeks to combine the intellect with faith.

There is of course a problem if there's an imbalance between the two (faith and intellect). The ideal in Buddhism is to unify both faith and intellect in order to both practice and also to test what we are led to believe.

Whilst other forms of faith systems are aspire towards the Truth; they differ from Buddhism in so much that they are over-simplistic (and perhaps intellectually lazy ?) Whilst Faith in Buddhism is not only believing what you've heard (in the Sutras) but is also based upon both the most profound philosophy and a way of life.

Edited June 15, 2005 by Gohonzon

[Darknight]

Buddhism (unlike other 'religions' who's definition of faith is more akin to that of a superstition than otherwise) does indeed look for intellectual evidence of faith, rather than just accepting blindly. Theravada Buddhism is highly analytical, and also seeks to combine the intellect with faith.

Then you maybe should realize that your "intellectual evidence" is couloured by the faith you believe.

You have a preconception that buddhism has all the answers spiritual and intelectual as well whilest other "religions" just blindly believe some crap.

As catholicism doesn't combine intellect with faith

Or the koran is really simple

You clearly haven't risen out of the Boxes and labels people make for each other.

Therefore i would conclude you've missed the buddha's teaching inner purpose.

"Your Focus determines Your Reality"

[Thomas_Merton]

But basically Buddhism (and Christianity) is an uncomplicated faith, based upon simple principles. The only problems you or I have with them are caused by our human frailty and our desires - one of which is our desire to over intellectualise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thomas_Merton

How can faith be based upon principles? Surely faith is simply believing what you have heard. In Buddism the acting upon principles is aspiring to act by The Six Perfections as expounded by Buddha Sakyamuni. I, of couse, speak as a Mahayanist.

Further , there are four Faiths in the Present (steps of belief). Understanding by Faith in a Single moment ; Understanding the Meaning; Disseminating it to Others and Entering into Deep Faith.

Buddhism (unlike other 'religions' who's definition of faith is more akin to that of a superstition than otherwise) does indeed look for intellectual evidence of faith, rather than just accepting blindly. Theravada Buddhism is highly analytical, and also seeks to combine the intellect with faith.

There is of course a problem if there's an imbalance between the two (faith and intellect). The ideal in Buddhism is to unify both faith and intellect in order to both practice and also to test what we are led to believe.

Whilst other forms of faith systems are aspire towards the Truth; they differ from Buddhism in so much that they are over-simplistic (and perhaps intellectually lazy ?) Whilst Faith in Buddhism is not only believing what you've heard (in the Sutras) but is also based upon both the most profound philosophy and a way of life.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The only problems you or I have with them are caused by our human frailty and our desires - one of which is our desire to over intellectualise.

[Gohonzon]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The only problems you or I have with them are caused by our human frailty and our desires - one of which is our desire to over intellectualise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Firstly , I wonder if to 'intellectualise' is in fact what we'd term as an earthly desire as such? That is, the obstacles to one’s practice which arise from greed, anger, stupidity and the suchlike. It can be argued-- that from the standpoint of the inherent and mutually co-dependent Ten Worlds--that in fact the World of Learning and Realisation containswithin it the world of the intellect. One the one side that contains negativity of feeling superiority, pride, arrogance and the so on. On the other, it drives man in the quest for greater understanding and all that implies for humanity.

Also, earthy desires contain the seeds of enlightenment. Mahayana Buddhism does not see the attainment of Realisation by negating the human desires that drive us towards betterment, but in negating those that are negative ones.

Earthly desires are enlightenment.

The original term in Japanese is bon’no soku bodai. The Japanese word bon’no derives from the Chinese interpretation of the Sanskrit word klisa (or klesa), which means defilement, pain, affliction, distress, evil passion, moral depravity, worry, trouble, infection or contamination. The Chinese interpretation also implies delusions or temptations arising from passions or ignorance that disturb and distress the mind. The Japanese word soku means to be immediately present or to be the same as. And finally the Japanese word bodai is a transliteration of the Sanskrit bodhi, which means knowledge, understanding, perfect wisdom or the enlightened mind. Put simply, this Buddhist concept tells us that our desires and sufferin--all that torments our mind--can be the source of wisdom and happiness.

The Pure Buddha Land does not exist in some other place that we aspire to reach as some kind of heaven outside of our lives...but is to be found in the phenomenal world itself. What the nature of emtiness actually is, is another discussion...short of enlightement...an intellectual one.

Therefore, firstly how is the tendency to "over intellectualise" a desire borne from human fraility?

And without human desires how is it possible to aspire towards Buddhahood itself?

[Thomas_Merton]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The only problems you or I have with them are caused by our human frailty and our desires - one of which is our desire to over intellectualise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Firstly , I wonder if to 'intellectualise' is in fact what we'd term as an earthly desire as such? That is, the obstacles to one’s practice which arise from greed, anger, stupidity and the suchlike. It can be argued-- that from the standpoint of the inherent and mutually co-dependent Ten Worlds--that in fact the World of Learning and Realisation containswithin it  the world of the intellect. One the one side that contains negativity of feeling superiority, pride, arrogance and the so on. On the other, it drives man in the quest for greater understanding and all that implies for humanity.

Also, earthy desires contain the seeds of enlightenment. Mahayana Buddhism does not see the attainment of Realisation by negating the human desires that drive us towards betterment, but in negating those that are negative ones.

Earthly desires are enlightenment.

The original term in Japanese is bon’no soku bodai. The Japanese word bon’no derives from the Chinese interpretation of the Sanskrit word klisa (or klesa), which means defilement, pain, affliction, distress, evil passion, moral depravity, worry, trouble, infection or contamination. The Chinese interpretation also implies delusions or temptations arising from passions or ignorance that disturb and distress the mind. The Japanese word soku means to be immediately present or to be the same as. And finally the Japanese word bodai is a transliteration of the Sanskrit bodhi, which means knowledge, understanding, perfect wisdom or the enlightened mind. Put simply, this Buddhist concept tells us that our desires and sufferin--all that torments our mind--can be the source of wisdom and happiness.

The Pure Buddha Land does not exist in some other place that we aspire to reach as some kind of heaven outside of our lives...but is to be found in the phenomenal world itself. What the nature of emtiness actually is, is another discussion...short of enlightement...an intellectual one.

Therefore, firstly how is the tendency to "over intellectualise" a desire borne from human fraility?

And without human desires how is it possible to aspire towards Buddhahood itself?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am a simple man. And I do believe at the heart of Judeo-Christian tradition there is a simple message. Just as I also believe at the heart of Buddhism is also a simple message.

The heart of Judeo-Christian tradition is this:

1. to love God with all your heart and mind and soul.

2. to love your neighbour as yourself

The heart of Buddhist tradition is this:

1. to lead a moral life,

2. to be mindful and aware of thoughts and actions, and

3. to develop wisdom and understanding.

The Christian guidance as to how one should live out these principles is further developed by the parables and teachings of Jesus in the Gospels (I will not go into these as they come outside the scope of this forum, but will just note, that however complex the analyses of these teachings may appear, they were delivered to simple people concerned about simple truths). All other teachings, dogmas and theological thought are no more than the speculations of men, and as such, must always be judged in relation to the two principles at the heart of this tradition.

The essential point is though, that by living according to the two principles, within the Judeo-Christian tradition, one would return to God (Nirvana?).

The Lord Buddah also outlined through his teachings the essential aspects of the life of someone within the Buddhist tradition, perhaps even more practically than Jesus may have appeared to do within the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Because Buddhist teachings can be understood and tested by anyone. Buddhism teaches that the solutions to our problems are within ourselves not outside. The Buddha asked all his followers not to take his word as true, but rather to test the teachings for themselves. In this way, each person decides for themselves and takes responsibility for their own actions and understanding. This makes Buddhism less of a fixed package of beliefs which is to be accepted in its entirety, and more of a teaching which each person learns and uses in their own way.

In order to begin on this way one must accept the Four Noble Truths:

1. The first truth is that life is suffering i.e., life includes pain, getting old, disease, and ultimately death. We also endure psychological suffering like loneliness frustration, fear, embarrassment, disappointment and anger. This is an irrefutable fact that cannot be denied. It is realistic rather than pessimistic because pessimism is expecting things to be bad. Instead, Buddhism explains how suffering can be avoided and how we can be truly happy.

2. The second truth is that suffering is caused by craving and aversion. We will suffer if we expect other people to conform to our expectation, if we want others to like us, if we do not get something we want, etc. In other words, getting what you want does not guarantee happiness. Rather than constantly struggling to get what you want, try to modify your wanting. Wanting deprives us of contentment and happiness. A lifetime of wanting and craving and especially the craving to continue to exist, creates a powerful energy which causes the individual to be born. So craving leads to physical suffering because it causes us to be reborn.

3. The third truth is that suffering can be overcome and happiness can be attained; that true happiness and contentment are possible. lf we give up useless craving and learn to live each day at a time (not dwelling in the past or the imagined future) then we can become happy and free. We then have more time and energy to help others. This is Nirvana.

4. The fourth truth is that the Noble 8-fold Path is the path which leads to the end of suffering.

In summary, the Noble 8-fold Path is being moral (through what we say, do and our livelihood), focussing the mind on being fully aware of our thoughts and actions, and developing wisdom by understanding the Four Noble Truths and by developing compassion for others.

The moral code within Buddhism is the precepts, of which the main five are: not to take the life of anything living, not to take anything not freely given, to abstain from sexual misconduct and sensual overindulgence, to refrain from untrue speech, and to avoid intoxication, that is, losing mindfulness.

Karma is the law that every cause has an effect, i.e., our actions have results. This simple law explains a number of things: inequality in the world, why some are born handicapped and some gifted, why some live only a short life. Karma underlines the importance of all individuals being responsible for their past and present actions. How can we test the karmic effect of our actions? The answer is summed up by looking at (1) the intention behind the action, (2) effects of the action on oneself, and (3) the effects on others.

Buddhism teaches that wisdom should be developed with compassion. At one extreme, you could be a good-hearted fool and at the other extreme, you could attain knowledge without any emotion. Buddhism uses the middle path to develop both. The highest wisdom is seeing that in reality, all phenomena are incomplete, impermanent and do no constitute a fixed entity. True wisdom is not simply believing what we are told but instead experiencing and understanding truth and reality. Wisdom requires an open, objective, unbigoted mind. The Buddhist path requires courage, patience, flexibility and intelligence.

Compassion includes qualities of sharing, readiness to give comfort, sympathy, concern, caring. In Buddhism, we can really understand others, when we can really understand ourselves, through wisdom.

Anything outside of the above is in my humble opinion sheer speculation often disguised as intellectualism, but in reality no more than the uncontrolled horses of minds not disciplined by true contemplation on the simple, essential Buddhist way.

Edited June 15, 2005 by Thomas_Merton

[Gohonzon]

Indeed it is true that the ultimate Law of Buddhism is that of Compassion, which should be pursued with wisdom, dignity and power. Especially that to be found in the pages of the Lotus Sutra (I myself am a follower of the Lotus School of Buddhism as found in Nichiren Daishonin)

However, I don't think it it helpful to quote the orthodox interpretation of Buddhism that you've posted here. It's practically impossible to define exactly what Buddhism is. There are so many schools even within the two major ones of Mahayana and Theravada.

Much of the earlier and later Sutra's are disputed as to which is best followed. Buddha Sakyamuni used 'expedient means' in explaining to his audience according to their capacities at the time--but this too may be disputed. However, the Theravada tradition tends to adhere to the earlier sutra's and Mahayan the more liberal, later ones.

For example

http://www.sgi-usa.org/buddhism/introtobuddhism2.html

I don't think that at the heart of Buddhism lies simple Truth (s). It could even be disputed that the Precepts are themselves helpful (even as guidlines to to be aspired to). If I remember correctly Buddha Sakyamuni advised one disciple to go out and break two, or more as he was too attached to them. I can't remember reading that Jesus advised his followers to go and break the Ten Commandments. Therein lies the difference.

Buddhism is not a moral code, or set of rules to live by---it is essentially devoid of morality (amoral) as morality, as of all other phenomena, is empty of individual essence. However, it isn't licentious either. But neither and both--the middle way. Dharma is hard to understand, and even harder to enter in to.

Gassho

[Thomas_Merton]

Indeed it is true that the ultimate Law of Buddhism is that of Compassion, which should be pursued with wisdom, dignity and power. Especially that to be found in the pages of the Lotus Sutra (I myself am a follower of the Lotus School of Buddhism as found in Nichiren Daishonin)

However, I don't  think it it helpful to quote the orthodox interpretation of Buddhism that you've posted here. It's practically impossible to define exactly what Buddhism is. There are so many schools even within the two major ones of Mahayana and Theravada.

Much of the earlier and later Sutra's are disputed as to which is best followed. Buddha Sakyamuni used 'expedient means' in explaining to his audience according to their capacities at the time--but this too may be disputed. However, the Theravada tradition tends to adhere to the earlier sutra's and Mahayan the more liberal, later ones.

For example

http://www.sgi-usa.org/buddhism/introtobuddhism2.html

I don't think that at the heart of Buddhism lies simple Truth (s). It could even be disputed that the Precepts are themselves helpful (even as guidlines to to be aspired to). If I remember correctly Buddha Sakyamuni advised one disciple to go out and break two, or more as he was too attached to them. I can't remember reading that Jesus advised his followers to go and break the Ten Commandments. Therein lies the difference.

Buddhism is not a moral code, or set of rules to live by---it is essentially devoid of morality (amoral) as morality, as of all other phenomena, is empty of individual essence. However, it isn't licentious either. But neither and both--the middle way. Dharma is hard to understand, and even harder to enter in to.

Gassho

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I cannot argue with you because I do not know.

You have your way and I have mine.

I have written what I believe and have experienced of the two traditions; the Truth lies in the Judaic-Christian tradition as does the Truth also in the Buddhist way.

Nothing will prevent the Truth being revealed within these traditions but that thinking makes it so.

The emperor, who was a devout Buddhist, invited a great Zen master to the Palace in order to ask him questions about Buddhism. "What is the highest truth of the holy Buddhist doctrine?" the emperor inquired.

"Vast emptiness... and not a trace of holiness," the master replied.

"If there is no holiness," the emperor said, "then who or what are you?"

"I do not know," the master replied.

[Gohonzon]

There's quite an interesting discussion--I thought-- on Buddhism and Christianity on the thread (below), that may,or may not, interest you?

http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=3396

[bina]

actually, thomas's way of explanation is a very good way to explain to most people that ask 'what is buddhism' when they think of zen koans, or a yogi meditator.... i actually printed it out to give eldest child to read, will see if she understood the english or not...

i guess that at this point u could say i am 'buddhist' in that i realize that since i was about 16yrs old , i've been thinking along these lines, have always realized that there is a lot of truth in the idea that craving brings suffereing, etc etc etc... but only recently i've realized that a lot of what i think/do is 'buddhistic' in style/way... however i beleive that if u ask thai friends if i am buddhist, they will say, no, i'm 'yu' (jewish) which of course means that i dont eat food once a year, and bread for a week, and am supposed to not eat pork, etc....... the fact that i may be 'more' buddhist than most of them, does not make me buddhist in their eyes since u dont become 'budhist' its just part of life.....so dont think there really is conversion....

i went to wat with them, did all the stuff they did, and it was assumed that i would do that, and not as a religious thing but as a respectful thing just as for them it is a respectful thing, not a religious thing

but thomas, one other thing: judeo/christian belief means u have someone else to lean on in times of sorrow etc... in buddhism, u only really have 'me, myself, and i' to work with so as friend puts it, when u have a problem, u should just be by yourself, and work it out until its not a problem anymore.... i.e. be mindful to what really is going on

WAY TOO COMPLICATED FOR KEYBOARD DISCUSSION.....

[Gohonzon]

but thomas, one other thing: judeo/christian belief means u have someone else to lean on in times of sorrow etc... in buddhism, u only really have 'me, myself, and i' to work with so as friend puts it, when u have a problem, u should just be by yourself, and work it out until its not a problem anymore....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whilst ultimately we are all alone , in an existentialist sense. One of the benefits from having 'good friends', i.e Belonging to a sangha, is that we always have people to talk through our problems with and to encourage us--that is one very good reason that we have such.

Buddhism isn't really a religion/belief system based upon ascetic lonliness, but has it's roots in everyday life. Whether that be in lay Buddhism, or in the monastic tradition.

When we take refuge, we do so in the Buddha,Dharma and Sangha. To marginalise one has the same effect of missing out one of the three component parts of Buddhism: Faith. Practice and Study. There is no Buddhism without either one of the three.

Whilst there have been Buddhist masters who have spent time alone in seeking enlightnment, for most it remains a social/humanistic religion based upon Compassion.

It is, therefore, misguided to paint a picture of Buddhism in which each is left to work out ones karma in isolation from others. That kind of misinterpretation may even tend more towards escapism than real Buddhist practice.

[bina]

understood, but what is the FAITH part.... faith to whom, or what, or to yourself?

faith means something close to religioun (u have to believe in something i guess external as opposed to internal, such as your own personal 'voice')as opposed to a philosophy, or way of life (maybe belief in your own actions?)

sorry, gohozon, what i meant by working things out yourself, i wasnt referring to intensive hermit type actions, but more like, in active daily living situations:

religious people i know pray to their god when a child is sick, or having a problem with whatever is bothering them.... in buddhism technically speaking, if your child is sick, well, use medication, do what has to be done, deal with the situation and dont mull over long term ramifications so that u work youself in to hysteria.... stay calm etc etc... the thai addition would be to deal with the gods, ghosts, et al that seems to be part of the package also... probably because human nature likes to have someone or something else to blame or lean on (as i said before) that has more control than they do....

but the OP asked about conversion, and i was trying also to say that u dont 'convert' because it is a way of living that can overlap more or less on to other belief systems ... u dont have to get babtized, or profess your undying love of the holy three, or renounce your belief in something else, etc....

Edited June 17, 2005 by bina

[camerata]

i guess that at this point u could say i am 'buddhist' in that i realize that since i was about 16yrs old , i've been thinking along these lines, have always realized that there is a lot of truth in the idea that craving brings suffereing, etc etc etc... but only recently i've realized that a lot of what i think/do is 'buddhistic' in style/way... however i beleive that if u ask thai friends if i am buddhist, they will say, no, i'm 'yu' (jewish) which of course means that i dont eat food once a year, and bread for a week, and am supposed to not eat pork, etc....... the fact that i may be 'more' buddhist than most of them, does not make me buddhist in their eyes since u dont become 'budhist' its just part of life.....so dont think there really is conversion....

I doubt many Thais have come across someone who has converted. I think generally they assume that everyone is whatever religion they were born into. I think they'd accept you as a Buddhist if you did all the Buddhist things they do and don't observe other religions' practices.

But try telling upcountry Thais that you meditate or that you are a Mahayana Buddhist and you'll probably get a strange reaction. If you meditate, this is considered something mostly monks do. If you follow Mahayana, they probably won't see that as being "Thai Buddhism."

[yoda]

i guess that at this point u could say i am 'buddhist' in that i realize that since i was about 16yrs old , i've been thinking along these lines, have always realized that there is a lot of truth in the idea that craving brings suffereing, etc etc etc... but only recently i've realized that a lot of what i think/do is 'buddhistic' in style/way... however i beleive that if u ask thai friends if i am buddhist, they will say, no, i'm 'yu' (jewish) which of course means that i dont eat food once a year, and bread for a week, and am supposed to not eat pork, etc....... the fact that i may be 'more' buddhist than most of them, does not make me buddhist in their eyes since u dont become 'budhist' its just part of life.....so dont think there really is conversion....

I doubt many Thais have come across someone who has converted. I think generally they assume that everyone is whatever religion they were born into. I think they'd accept you as a Buddhist if you did all the Buddhist things they do and don't observe other religions' practices.

But try telling upcountry Thais that you meditate or that you are a Mahayana Buddhist and you'll probably get a strange reaction. If you meditate, this is considered something mostly monks do. If you follow Mahayana, they probably won't see that as being "Thai Buddhism."

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Not to mention that for most thai people buddhism is just something they have learned to do, perform the routines.

The real message or meaning behind buddhism is illusive to them. Hence the mix with animism, worship of sculptures, rituals ect...

It's an equal exercise to being thought catholicism as a child , or any other religion forced on by the parents.

It's going through the motions......

[camerata]

But basically Buddhism (and Christianity) is an uncomplicated faith, based upon simple principles. The only problems you or I have with them are caused by our human frailty and our desires - one of which is our desire to over intellectualise.

The principles of Buddhism seem rather more complicated than those of Christianity to me. Most people, for example, have a hard time getting their heads around the idea of not having a self or of what exactly passes forward into the next life. Similarly, the practice of Buddhism is generally a lot more complex than that of Christianity, perhaps because the ultimate goal is available in this life rather than the next.

Much as I respect Thich Nhat Hanh, I think he (and others like him) are going in the wrong direction trying to equate nirvana with the kingdom of god. Maybe that's acceptable to a Buddhist, but most Christians think of heaven or the kingdom of God as involving an external deity and being in the next life. I doubt westerners intertested in Buddhism really want to be told that the goal is pretty much the same as the goal of the religion they are rejecting.

The Dalai Lama says things like, "Don't become a Buddhist. Be a good Christian. Be a good Muslim." I understand his point that the practices of religions are all designed to make us better people, but I can't help wondering if an additional concern is to allow Buddism to quietly grow in the west without any backlash from the rabid Christian Right.

[camerata]

Not to mention that for most thai people buddhism is just something they have learned to do, perform the routines.

The real message or meaning behind buddhism is illusive to them. Hence the mix with animism, worship of sculptures, rituals ect...

It's an equal exercise to being thought catholicism as a child , or any other religion forced on by the parents.

It's going through the motions......

For sure, there's way too much importance given to ritual and ceremonies, but I don't think it's all just going through the motions. Thais at least have a pretty clear idea that to keep the precepts and make merit will improve their situation in the next life.

Anyway, much of the Buddhism that Thais have now was forced on them by the government. There's an excellent book on this called Forest Recollections which I reviewed elsewhere in this forum.

[Thomas_Merton]

There's quite an interesting discussion--I thought-- on Buddhism and Christianity on the thread (below), that may,or may not, interest you?

http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=3396

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I read the thread you recommended with great interest (as I have also read Bina’s contributions).

What impressed me most was the divergence of opinion and its obvious relation to the age, knowledge of the traditions and level of spiritual awareness of the participants. Interestingly those who demonstrated greater knowledge and signs of developed spiritual awareness tended to emphasise the similarities in the traditions, whilst the younger (in all senses) concentrated on the differences.

I was particularly pleased to see references to writers who I personally value: voices of the ancient Gnostics, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Thomas Merton and Hans Kung.

I would also include in this list: the writer of “The Cloud of Unknowing”; St. John of the Cross; Simone Weil (a French Jewish woman who did not convert); the Austrian philosopher Wittgenstein. All of these authors, from within the western tradition, have helped formulate my point of view.

But the most erudite comment came from the Dalai Lama, “Lord Buddha is my door; Lord Jesus is your door.”

It is in this metaphorical way I wish to continue.

Doors can close things in. Many are closed within their tradition, often concentrating too much on themselves as identified within these traditions, never really opening their door to begin upon the journey of spiritual exploration all traditions offer.

But when we do open the doors we discover that they open up for us many different opportunities for travel. We see there are numerous alternatives for our journey just as there are countless methods of travelling. The destinations will be defined differently. The maps used, will reflect the terrain and its difficulties with varying degrees of accuracy. But we begin either on foot, or bicycle, car, ship, plane etc. each method of transport suitable for particular geographical hazards – some highly unsuitable. Often we choose incorrectly. Sometimes we make the correct choice only to find we have to change during the course of the journey. The hazards we meet will be similar but unique for each one of us. All of these alternatives reflect our individual differences, the denominations of Christianity and their theologies, the varying types of Buddhism and their discources, the different interpretations of the Jewish tradition etc. All points of view: from fundamentalism through to mysticism and beyond.

But there is one method of transport IMHO that transcends all other forms of transportation – a sort of “time machine” in comparison to the more mundane forms of movement. Buddhists may enter from the left, Christians from the right, Jews from the front, other traditions from the back. But once inside everything else becomes redefined beyond words, metaphors and analogy.

What becomes apparent is not what divides but that which unifies us all on our common path.

I am, of course, talking about meditation and contemplation. Not the “one off – I’ll give it a go” type, but the practiced, disciplined and regular (daily) meditation of the serious.

To return to the OP: I would propose, depending on the OP’s original tradition, that a discussion with his wife about meditation, hopefully concluding in an agreement wherein they decide to spend half an hour everyday in fellowship meditating from within their own traditions, would guarantee a joint spiritual development that would make all discussion about conversion irrelevant.

[bina]

thomas,

thanx for reading me...

But there is one method of transport IMHO that transcends all other forms of transportation

for a minute there i thought u were going to say : DEATH because in the long and short of it, everyone dies, its just the argument of what happens next that seems to be so critical like are there 40 virgins waiting for u, will u play a harp, it will be sabai sabai no work no problems, etc...

i sort of wonder, and maybe i'm not correct but it seems to me that thai people do not sit around and wonder about spiritual things as that would be 'kit mak' or they dont agonize about spiritual matters as much as many westerners, or make a fuss (like someone here said, they assume that u are what u are born in to, more or less);

and age: well, my son refused to wear one of those string bracelets that a friend sent us from some wat, saying they werent 'his religioun' and i tried to explain that it symbolized the good wishes of the friend and not more than that... he is 15 i am old and not too worried about external symbols

will now have to go check out the names thomas listed though this thread ran away from the original poster's question, it certainly is interesting...

also most thai i met (the country folk) havent a clue about religions etc (probably like people from iowa i once met who thought i had horns as a jew) and i have always had a hard time talking about the 'do u believe in god' thing with them cause i dont know how to describe the concept of an omnipotent being ... when their gods are many and sort of more specific with names and shapes etc, and personalities. and when describing 'conversion' (my christian sister in law converted to judaism) i was met with blank looks like, what does it matter, and who does it interest at all? why does she have to convert?....

and when sompong asks me what i;m doing , if i say meditating, he thinks its hilarious, but if i say, sitting and not thinking, (a thing that thai like to do it seems) thats fine.......

Edited June 17, 2005 by bina

[Thomas_Merton]

Bina,

I have commented, in blue, what you have written

thomas,

thanx for reading me...

But there is one method of transport IMHO that transcends all other forms of transportation

for a minute there i thought u were going to say : DEATH because in the long and short of it, everyone dies, its just the argument of what happens next that seems to be so critical like are there 40 virgins waiting for u, will u play a harp, it will be sabai sabai no work no problems, etc...

Metaphysics (a priori speculation upon questions that are unanswerable to scientific observation, analysis, or experiment) has no value. What happens after our death is sheer speculation, and I believe that speculation is a waste of time. We cannot, and never will, know what will happen in the future. The only thing we do know with absolute certainty is that we will die. Death is the only inevitability in our life.

There is an interesting “meditation” (mind-game) I sometimes play on death (which I suppose is a speculation – so let me call it useful speculation in that it relates to how I must behave today):

- The only thing in this life that is inevitable is death.

- The only thing that is inevitable in our life is our death

- We do not know when our death will come

- But we DO know that it WILL come

- Death could come next year (a mysterious, yet to be contracted, terminal illness, for example – there are enough of them)

- What if we knew, we would die next year (a possibility based on a coming inevitability)

- How would we live the rest of our lives?

- What if you knew, you would die tomorrow (happens to millions every day: the car accident; run over by a bus; plane accident; accidental death is a very common occurrence – it could happen to you)

- How would you live your life? What would be important? How would you treat those you know and those you meet? What value material things, considering there are no pockets in a shroud?

Surely, we can get much more out of our lives, realising what is essential and truly important, based upon meditating on the possibility we may die tomorrow, than by attempting to live our lives according to the dominant fallacy that appears to rule most people’s lives –i.e. we live forever (which we know is not true)?

i sort of wonder, and maybe i'm not correct but it seems to me that thai people do not sit around and wonder about spiritual things as that would be 'kit mak' or they dont agonize about spiritual matters as much as many westerners, or make a fuss (like someone here said, they assume that u are what u are born in to, more or less);

We wonder only perhaps because we have become more sophisticated. By this I mean impure – what were certainties within our traditions say 200 years ago, have became tainted by so-called advancements, many of which have their basis in ways of thinking that appear to reject these traditions. I fear greatly that Thailand too is beginning to be swamped by this sophistication. In BKK absolutely. But television is bringing it everywhere now.

and age: well, my son refused to wear one of those string bracelets that a friend sent us from some wat, saying they werent 'his religioun' and i tried to explain that it symbolized the good wishes of the friend and not more than that... he is 15 i am old and not too worried about external symbols

My eldest son wore skulls and other heavy-metal symbols when he was 15 (only problem is, he still does now that he’s 24)…(I am correct in assuming you live in Israel?) …the “weren’t his religion” sounds very Israeli to my ears.

will now have to go check out the names thomas listed though this thread ran away from the original poster's question, it certainly is interesting...

Someone I missed out, and was introduced to when I was living in Israel is Martin Buber.

also most thai i met (the country folk) havent a clue about religions etc (probably like people from iowa i once met who thought i had horns as a jew) and i have always had a hard time talking about the 'do u believe in god' thing with them cause i dont know how to describe the concept of an omnipotent being ... when their gods are many and sort of more specific with names and shapes etc, and personalities. and when describing 'conversion' (my christian sister in law converted to judaism) i was met with blank looks like, what does it matter, and who does it interest at all? why does she have to convert?....

And this is a great lesson the Thai can teach us – what does it matter? If it wasn’t for Rabinical courts, the Law of return – who is a Jew? etc.– it wouldn’t matter. In fact I’m willing to bet what ever life I have after death, that G-D couldn’t care less.

and when sompong asks me what i;m doing , if i say meditating, he thinks its hilarious, but if i say, sitting and not thinking, (a thing that thai like to do it seems) thats fine.......

That’s a good starting point.

My wife is rather sceptical about my meditation often suppressing her all too practical reaction that it’s a bit of a waste of time. But then I remind her of the tributes she pays to Rama V and the Lord Buddha and what I am doing is the same thing, only in my way, a way similar to the monks in Thailand.

This usually solves any problems. Although sometimes I get: “Meditation? How is it you always want to meditate when the washing up needs doing? I tell you – you should shave your head – be a monk – then you’ll find out what real meditation means.”

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