US Assistant Secretary Of State Campbell Meets Red-Shirts Protesters

[pornsasi]

The US government has a long time rule never to discuss or negotiate with terrorists. So why is the assistant secretary of state making an exception now? Is it because these terrorists are not threatening the US? Not only Thailand has double standards.

Probably because the red shirts is not a terrorist movement

[lazurus]

The US government has a long time rule never to discuss or negotiate with terrorists. So why is the assistant secretary of state making an exception now? Is it because these terrorists are not threatening the US? Not only Thailand has double standards.

Probably because the red shirts is not a terrorist movement

Yes it is

[animatic]

BANGKOK: -- US Assistant Secretary of State Kurt Campbell Sunday met with red-shirt protesters before applauding Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva's road map, unveiled last week as a peaceful way to end the country's politi-cal turmoil.

So his opinion wouldn't really count for much then? Talks to the opposition and then applauds the PM's road-map. Just wants to add to the confusion, i guess?

Campbell met key figures from the opposition such as Pongthep Thepkanjana, Chaturon Chaisaeng and Noppadon Pattama. Pongthep and Chaturon are former Cabinet ministers banned from politics for five years under a court order, while Noppadon is a lawyer who is now spokesman for the Shinawatra family.

What is the point of meeting individuals who are banned from politics? Are they the only one's who were interested to meet this guy?

"More than 10 Democrats were also invited to attend the breakfast meeting, but none of them went. Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya and government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn also declined the invitation," a political source said.

Can you blame them for not attending? What has it got to do with Mr Campbell and why should his opinion on Thai politcis matter?

Campbell said he came to Bangkok not to mediate a break-through or back any outcome.

So why meet them? Oh, just because he could i suppose. Seriously, can somebody please explain to me the reason behind this meeting?

Clearly putting pressure on Team Thaksin through middle upper layer of Thaksin players.

And making it an opportunity for bi-directional dialog that was turned down. But made quite publicly.

State Department people regularly meet with people who are not actually in governments.

But often people not 'in government' are also connected intimately with players that wield influence,

for good and ill.

It's not like he went to the rally site, broke bread with Jutuporn and clasped his hand on stage....

But he did meet with people with vested interests to change the Thai playing field,

who have been, and may in future be in government. 2 years not being a long time in the bigger picture.

Just because they can't be elected at present doesn't mean they aren't still players.

What was said OFF THE RECORD, may well be of much more interest in the big picture....

Edited May 10, 2010 by animatic

[junkofdavid2]

Asst. Secretary of State Campbell in talks to recognize Redland as a new Southeast Asian state?

[pornsasi]

The US government has a long time rule never to discuss or negotiate with terrorists. So why is the assistant secretary of state making an exception now? Is it because these terrorists are not threatening the US? Not only Thailand has double standards.

Probably because the red shirts is not a terrorist movement

Yes it is

. Sorry my friend i somewhat trust more the US state department then some clownish yellows supporters

[SICA]

BANGKOK: -- US Assistant Secretary of State Kurt Campbell Sunday met with red-shirt protesters before applauding Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva's road map, unveiled last week as a peaceful way to end the country's politi-cal turmoil.

So his opinion wouldn't really count for much then? Talks to the opposition and then applauds the PM's road-map. Just wants to add to the confusion, i guess?

Campbell met key figures from the opposition such as Pongthep Thepkanjana, Chaturon Chaisaeng and Noppadon Pattama. Pongthep and Chaturon are former Cabinet ministers banned from politics for five years under a court order, while Noppadon is a lawyer who is now spokesman for the Shinawatra family.

What is the point of meeting individuals who are banned from politics? Are they the only one's who were interested to meet this guy?

"More than 10 Democrats were also invited to attend the breakfast meeting, but none of them went. Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya and government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn also declined the invitation," a political source said.

Can you blame them for not attending? What has it got to do with Mr Campbell and why should his opinion on Thai politcis matter?

Campbell said he came to Bangkok not to mediate a break-through or back any outcome.

So why meet them? Oh, just because he could i suppose. Seriously, can somebody please explain to me the reason behind this meeting?

Clearly putting pressure on Team Thaksin through middle upper layer of Thaksin players.

And making it an opportunity for bi-directional dialog that was turned down. But made quite publicly.

State Department people regularly meet with people who are not actually in governments.

But often people not 'in government' are also connected intimately with players that wield influence,

for good and ill.

It's not like he went to the rally site, broke bread with Jutuporn and clasped his hand on stage....

But he did meet with people with vested interests to change the Thai playing field,

who have been, and may in future be in government. 2 years not being a long time in the bigger picture.

Just because they can't be elected at present doesn't mean they aren't still players.

What was said OFF THE RECORD, may well be of much more interest in the big picture....

Very true. I can only think that there was an underlying, perhaps alterior, motive or reason to this meeting.

Thanks for clearing this up, or attempting too. I am still not sure i understand why this particular gentleman wanted a meeting if he did not want to act as a mediator. I guess i will have to stick with the OFF THE RECORD idea. It would be nice to hear, read or see a report from him regarding his meeting.

[oceano]

Within the ranks of the Red-Shirt demonstrators are some armed soldiers, effectively a paid militia to serve as a perimeter defense, to deter the police and army from overrunning the UDD camp and apprehending the core leadership in a sudden rush. These security forces are a mixed lot, ranging from well-trained and well-disciplined members of the Thai army, ex-ranger tigers, and some CNF ex-police, down to bangkok mafia enforcers and under-bosses, and an assortment of gun-toting betel-spitting yahoos from the paddies of over a dozen amphurs. The problem guys are gun-nut wingers, who got M79 equipped for this show, and are trying to foment a serious shoot-out, which will paint the police and army in blood. This was included in the price when they were hired for the security work, and the UDD core leadership is not happy with it, but there are a couple things preventing them from kicking these a55holes out of the ranks. Most importantly, they cannot totaly disagree with the argument put back to them by the shoot-first cadre that dirtying the police and army with blood is maybe the only viable counter right now against an army coup to hold the government in an other arbitration, dissolution, and re-election sale this year. The UDD does not want that. The UDD call for immediate dissolution and re-elections stems from the same countenanced loss of oppotunity.

The democrats waiting until November is counting on that outcome exactly to put the next round of elections into a time-frame that permits forming a different coalition of parties. The other problem with disentanglement from the shooters is a loss of vital components of that security, with intel from back-channels out of the police HQ, which are their vital signal to use their "out" before a real raid penetrates their camp to grab up the key leaders.

So the classic deal with the devil you know has them stuck, and the violence is getting serious.

This is a plain old bad time for everyone.

The same old guys are just parked on this topic, wanting to make their opinions into fact de-facto by just repeating them over and again pi55ing on every new contrib to the thread. BARF! Do your pathetic thing to mine, too. I don't care about bored punk-attitude outsiders who heckle from the side-lines.

You should have some respect. The Thai people are a beautiful bunch, and their country and history are seriously cool. They have come to the moment of truth on their political machinery, and have to step into the 21st century with it, good and bad with all of this mess. The process is messy enough on the loyalty re-shuffling level, but on top of which it is being harrassed by a bunck of KEE-NOK gun-talkers. I am sad the Thai people are getting robbed of this momentary opportunity for a breakthrough. The statements of the leaders on both sides do not go to much trouble to sound intelligent when there is killing taking place. They should be doing their best work right now on winning people with ideas, but the public debate has lost all imtimacy, and Thais are horrified by the criminal violence being thrown upon the scene by the shooters. I am glad Campbell put the US in a conciliatory position last week, but now more must be done, and the US cannot help much from a perfectly balanced middle spot on the fence. Good time for a gut-check. Good time to check your hate at the door, too. The carefully played police and army presences are left with no options now. Some of the eye to eye killing that is coming is gut-wrenching to think about. Soldiers on both sides will recognize former colleages and even family in their sights as they end this thing.

My friend, i hope the moderator ban you, i hope people like you will be banned from all forum in this world, MAFIA? im Italian, i dont see any mafia people there some days ago, i dont see a single weapon and im an ex soldier, i was a sniper, i think i can see also if they hide a gun down one tshirt.

You dont have respect for people that come from upcountry in the week end after work for jont them, for the real thai people that are there only for have better condition in theyr poor life, and again show the evidence, show a picture of this " some armed soldiers" were they are? I see only 1 ex ranger there the security gard of Seh Deng nothings else.

"paid militia to serve as a perimeter defense to deter the police and army from overrunning the UDD camp" what they use for defense theyr hand? very dangerous.

I think the media had make hundreds of picture and video.....no one show a single weapon.

Also The Prime Minister have the same idea:

"If the rally is not called off, protesters will face a very high risk. The terrorists will act again, they will use violence against protesters and their leaders," the prime minister said."

As i said before, stop talk show me the evidence of what you talk about and i will agree whit you, till that time shut up and stop make new account in Thaivisa for nothings.

PS: Dont use "SPQR" that was a Roman history, my history and you dont have respect whit your word also for that.

Edited May 10, 2010 by oceano

[animatic]

<...>

I do see this as saying:

USA backs UDD /PTP to lead Thailand.

But as they have a chance to lead their people

by getting out of the rally site and on the road map,

and with it Thailand out of the predicament.

<...>

Do or Don't?

Campbell's statement reflects Washington's support for the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD)'s campaign.

Thanong's opinion. Not Campbell's or Washington's.

I don't see how Campbell's decision to meet politicians from both sides (the Democrats were invited but apparently declined) shows any support one way or the other.

The US support a peaceful resolution. They support the road map as a way forward to a peaceful resolution.

DON'T...

I seem to have been much more tired than I realized.

Dyslexia gets worse with fatigue. I have asked a mod to edit in the ' n't '.

Yes trying to get the players together is a positive thing.

And I see it as applied pressure where it will do the most good,

not a show of support.

Edited May 10, 2010 by animatic

[webfact]

One all CAPS post deleted.

all caps is considered as shouting and is poor forum netiquette.

[SICA]

Within the ranks of the Red-Shirt demonstrators are some armed soldiers, effectively a paid militia to serve as a perimeter defense, to deter the police and army from overrunning the UDD camp and apprehending the core leadership in a sudden rush. These security forces are a mixed lot, ranging from well-trained and well-disciplined members of the Thai army, ex-ranger tigers, and some CNF ex-police, down to bangkok mafia enforcers and under-bosses, and an assortment of gun-toting betel-spitting yahoos from the paddies of over a dozen amphurs. The problem guys are gun-nut wingers, who got M79 equipped for this show, and are trying to foment a serious shoot-out, which will paint the police and army in blood. This was included in the price when they were hired for the security work, and the UDD core leadership is not happy with it, but there are a couple things preventing them from kicking these a55holes out of the ranks. Most importantly, they cannot totaly disagree with the argument put back to them by the shoot-first cadre that dirtying the police and army with blood is maybe the only viable counter right now against an army coup to hold the government in an other arbitration, dissolution, and re-election sale this year. The UDD does not want that. The UDD call for immediate dissolution and re-elections stems from the same countenanced loss of oppotunity.

The democrats waiting until November is counting on that outcome exactly to put the next round of elections into a time-frame that permits forming a different coalition of parties. The other problem with disentanglement from the shooters is a loss of vital components of that security, with intel from back-channels out of the police HQ, which are their vital signal to use their "out" before a real raid penetrates their camp to grab up the key leaders.

So the classic deal with the devil you know has them stuck, and the violence is getting serious.

This is a plain old bad time for everyone.

The same old guys are just parked on this topic, wanting to make their opinions into fact de-facto by just repeating them over and again pi55ing on every new contrib to the thread. BARF! Do your pathetic thing to mine, too. I don't care about bored punk-attitude outsiders who heckle from the side-lines.

You should have some respect. The Thai people are a beautiful bunch, and their country and history are seriously cool. They have come to the moment of truth on their political machinery, and have to step into the 21st century with it, good and bad with all of this mess. The process is messy enough on the loyalty re-shuffling level, but on top of which it is being harrassed by a bunck of KEE-NOK gun-talkers. I am sad the Thai people are getting robbed of this momentary opportunity for a breakthrough. The statements of the leaders on both sides do not go to much trouble to sound intelligent when there is killing taking place. They should be doing their best work right now on winning people with ideas, but the public debate has lost all imtimacy, and Thais are horrified by the criminal violence being thrown upon the scene by the shooters. I am glad Campbell put the US in a conciliatory position last week, but now more must be done, and the US cannot help much from a perfectly balanced middle spot on the fence. Good time for a gut-check. Good time to check your hate at the door, too. The carefully played police and army presences are left with no options now. Some of the eye to eye killing that is coming is gut-wrenching to think about. Soldiers on both sides will recognize former colleages and even family in their sights as they end this thing.

My friend, i hope the moderator ban you, i hope people like you will be banned from all forum in this world, MAFIA? im Italian, i dont see any mafia people there some days ago, i dont see a single weapon and im an ex soldier, i was a sniper, i think i can see also if they hide a gun down one tshirt.

You dont have respect for people that come from upcountry in the week end after work for jont them, for the real thai people that are there only for have better condition in theyr poor life, and again show the evidence, show a picture of this " some armed soldiers" were they are? I see only 1 ex ranger there the security gard of Seh Deng nothings else.

"paid militia to serve as a perimeter defense to deter the police and army from overrunning the UDD camp" what they use for defense theyr hand? very dangerous.

I think the media had make hundreds of picture and video.....no one show a single weapon.

As i said before, stop talk show me the evidence of what you talk about and i will agree whit you, till that time shut up and stop make new account in Thaivisa for nothings.

PS: Dont use "SPQR" that was a Roman history, my history and you dont have respect whit your word also for that.

Serioulsy, my Italian friend, do your research before you start telling others how wrong they are. It has already been well documented that some of the red shirts and their guards have been or are armed. One expample, check out the Jazeera news video from the incident under the expressway a few days ago.

If there are no weapons, where do all of the grenades come from for example. I guess this is all just propoganda to you?

The original poster is posting his opinion, it was not a personal attack on you or anything Italian. As for the Mafia comment, do you live in Thailand?

[pornsasi]

The United States Government hasn't ever found or declared the Red Shirts to be a terrorist organization, nor is it about to make or declare such a finding.

Its not a terrorist movement , thats why . Plain and simple

[pornsasi]

Within the ranks of the Red-Shirt demonstrators are some armed soldiers, effectively a paid militia to serve as a perimeter defense, to deter the police and army from overrunning the UDD camp and apprehending the core leadership in a sudden rush. These security forces are a mixed lot, ranging from well-trained and well-disciplined members of the Thai army, ex-ranger tigers, and some CNF ex-police, down to bangkok mafia enforcers and under-bosses, and an assortment of gun-toting betel-spitting yahoos from the paddies of over a dozen amphurs. The problem guys are gun-nut wingers, who got M79 equipped for this show, and are trying to foment a serious shoot-out, which will paint the police and army in blood. This was included in the price when they were hired for the security work, and the UDD core leadership is not happy with it, but there are a couple things preventing them from kicking these a55holes out of the ranks. Most importantly, they cannot totaly disagree with the argument put back to them by the shoot-first cadre that dirtying the police and army with blood is maybe the only viable counter right now against an army coup to hold the government in an other arbitration, dissolution, and re-election sale this year. The UDD does not want that. The UDD call for immediate dissolution and re-elections stems from the same countenanced loss of oppotunity.

The democrats waiting until November is counting on that outcome exactly to put the next round of elections into a time-frame that permits forming a different coalition of parties. The other problem with disentanglement from the shooters is a loss of vital components of that security, with intel from back-channels out of the police HQ, which are their vital signal to use their "out" before a real raid penetrates their camp to grab up the key leaders.

So the classic deal with the devil you know has them stuck, and the violence is getting serious.

This is a plain old bad time for everyone.

The same old guys are just parked on this topic, wanting to make their opinions into fact de-facto by just repeating them over and again pi55ing on every new contrib to the thread. BARF! Do your pathetic thing to mine, too. I don't care about bored punk-attitude outsiders who heckle from the side-lines.

You should have some respect. The Thai people are a beautiful bunch, and their country and history are seriously cool. They have come to the moment of truth on their political machinery, and have to step into the 21st century with it, good and bad with all of this mess. The process is messy enough on the loyalty re-shuffling level, but on top of which it is being harrassed by a bunck of KEE-NOK gun-talkers. I am sad the Thai people are getting robbed of this momentary opportunity for a breakthrough. The statements of the leaders on both sides do not go to much trouble to sound intelligent when there is killing taking place. They should be doing their best work right now on winning people with ideas, but the public debate has lost all imtimacy, and Thais are horrified by the criminal violence being thrown upon the scene by the shooters. I am glad Campbell put the US in a conciliatory position last week, but now more must be done, and the US cannot help much from a perfectly balanced middle spot on the fence. Good time for a gut-check. Good time to check your hate at the door, too. The carefully played police and army presences are left with no options now. Some of the eye to eye killing that is coming is gut-wrenching to think about. Soldiers on both sides will recognize former colleages and even family in their sights as they end this thing.

My friend, i hope the moderator ban you, i hope people like you will be banned from all forum in this world, MAFIA? im Italian, i dont see any mafia people there some days ago, i dont see a single weapon and im an ex soldier, i was a sniper, i think i can see also if they hide a gun down one tshirt.

You dont have respect for people that come from upcountry in the week end after work for jont them, for the real thai people that are there only for have better condition in theyr poor life, and again show the evidence, show a picture of this " some armed soldiers" were they are? I see only 1 ex ranger there the security gard of Seh Deng nothings else.

"paid militia to serve as a perimeter defense to deter the police and army from overrunning the UDD camp" what they use for defense theyr hand? very dangerous.

I think the media had make hundreds of picture and video.....no one show a single weapon.

Also The Prime Minister have the same idea:

"If the rally is not called off, protesters will face a very high risk. The terrorists will act again, they will use violence against protesters and their leaders," the prime minister said."

As i said before, stop talk show me the evidence of what you talk about and i will agree whit you, till that time shut up and stop make new account in Thaivisa for nothings.

PS: Dont use "SPQR" that was a Roman history, my history and you dont have respect whit your word also for that.

Agree 100% with what you say . Not a single picture or video of red shirt comitting violence , though i saw videos of soldiers shooting at reds

[pornsasi]

One all CAPS post deleted.

all caps is considered as shouting and is poor forum netiquette.

Sorry for that ...

[schmutzie]

<...>

I think the media had make hundreds of picture and video.....no one show a single weapon.

<...>

Strictly speaking, that's not true. Off the top of my head, there were images of a man holding an AK47 and the widely published image of another carrying an M16 on the night of April 10th. The UDD claimed that the man with the M16 retrieved and secured the weapon and that

it had been abandoned by army personnel. They later made a big display of all the weapons they'd retrieved.

Never saw any further speculation as to the identity of the man with the AK47.

There was also the shot of hooded man crouching between abandoned cars and holding a pistol during the Vibhavadi Rd. standoff on April 29th.

Now, we can all speculate as to the relationship and roles of these men/images. But I disagree about there not being any images or videos showing weapons (that is, by people other than those who can be clearly identified as being army or police personnel).

And again, how would you define a weapon? What about those sharpened bamboo poles. What are they for?

[schmutzie]

Within the ranks of the Red-Shirt demonstrators are some armed soldiers, effectively a paid militia to serve as a perimeter defense, to deter the police and army from overrunning the UDD camp and apprehending the core leadership in a sudden rush. These security forces are a mixed lot, ranging from well-trained and well-disciplined members of the Thai army, ex-ranger tigers, and some CNF ex-police, down to bangkok mafia enforcers and under-bosses, and an assortment of gun-toting betel-spitting yahoos from the paddies of over a dozen amphurs. The problem guys are gun-nut wingers, who got M79 equipped for this show, and are trying to foment a serious shoot-out, which will paint the police and army in blood. This was included in the price when they were hired for the security work, and the UDD core leadership is not happy with it, but there are a couple things preventing them from kicking these a55holes out of the ranks. Most importantly, they cannot totaly disagree with the argument put back to them by the shoot-first cadre that dirtying the police and army with blood is maybe the only viable counter right now against an army coup to hold the government in an other arbitration, dissolution, and re-election sale this year. The UDD does not want that. The UDD call for immediate dissolution and re-elections stems from the same countenanced loss of oppotunity.

The democrats waiting until November is counting on that outcome exactly to put the next round of elections into a time-frame that permits forming a different coalition of parties. The other problem with disentanglement from the shooters is a loss of vital components of that security, with intel from back-channels out of the police HQ, which are their vital signal to use their "out" before a real raid penetrates their camp to grab up the key leaders.

So the classic deal with the devil you know has them stuck, and the violence is getting serious.

This is a plain old bad time for everyone.

The same old guys are just parked on this topic, wanting to make their opinions into fact de-facto by just repeating them over and again pi55ing on every new contrib to the thread. BARF! Do your pathetic thing to mine, too. I don't care about bored punk-attitude outsiders who heckle from the side-lines.

You should have some respect. The Thai people are a beautiful bunch, and their country and history are seriously cool. They have come to the moment of truth on their political machinery, and have to step into the 21st century with it, good and bad with all of this mess. The process is messy enough on the loyalty re-shuffling level, but on top of which it is being harrassed by a bunck of KEE-NOK gun-talkers. I am sad the Thai people are getting robbed of this momentary opportunity for a breakthrough. The statements of the leaders on both sides do not go to much trouble to sound intelligent when there is killing taking place. They should be doing their best work right now on winning people with ideas, but the public debate has lost all imtimacy, and Thais are horrified by the criminal violence being thrown upon the scene by the shooters. I am glad Campbell put the US in a conciliatory position last week, but now more must be done, and the US cannot help much from a perfectly balanced middle spot on the fence. Good time for a gut-check. Good time to check your hate at the door, too. The carefully played police and army presences are left with no options now. Some of the eye to eye killing that is coming is gut-wrenching to think about. Soldiers on both sides will recognize former colleages and even family in their sights as they end this thing.

My friend, i hope the moderator ban you, i hope people like you will be banned from all forum in this world, MAFIA? im Italian, i dont see any mafia people there some days ago, i dont see a single weapon and im an ex soldier, i was a sniper, i think i can see also if they hide a gun down one tshirt.

You dont have respect for people that come from upcountry in the week end after work for jont them, for the real thai people that are there only for have better condition in theyr poor life, and again show the evidence, show a picture of this " some armed soldiers" were they are? I see only 1 ex ranger there the security gard of Seh Deng nothings else.

"paid militia to serve as a perimeter defense to deter the police and army from overrunning the UDD camp" what they use for defense theyr hand? very dangerous.

I think the media had make hundreds of picture and video.....no one show a single weapon.

Also The Prime Minister have the same idea:

"If the rally is not called off, protesters will face a very high risk. The terrorists will act again, they will use violence against protesters and their leaders," the prime minister said."

As i said before, stop talk show me the evidence of what you talk about and i will agree whit you, till that time shut up and stop make new account in Thaivisa for nothings.

PS: Dont use "SPQR" that was a Roman history, my history and you dont have respect whit your word also for that.

Agree 100% with what you say . Not a single picture or video of red shirt comitting violence , though i saw videos of soldiers shooting at reds

I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. I don't care where your sympathies lie but you can not say that you have not seen pictures of police and army being hurt. I'm not talking shots to the head here, but clearly there's tons of footage showing protesters beating or pushing or otherwise resisting the army and police.

Don't you consider this violence? Now, you can argue that it was provoked, instigated, "they did it first", self-protection or whatever, but in my book that does constitute violence.

Edited May 10, 2010 by schmutzie

[pornsasi]

<...>

I think the media had make hundreds of picture and video.....no one show a single weapon.

<...>

Strictly speaking, that's not true. Off the top of my head, there were images of a man holding an AK47 and the widely published image of another carrying an M16 on the night of April 10th. The UDD claimed that the man with the M16 retrieved and secured the weapon and that

it had been abandoned by army personnel. They later made a big display of all the weapons they'd retrieved.

Never saw any further speculation as to the identity of the man with the AK47.

There was also the shot of hooded man crouching between abandoned cars and holding a pistol during the Vibhavadi Rd. standoff on April 29th.

Now, we can all speculate as to the relationship and roles of these men/images. But I disagree about there not being any images or videos showing weapons (that is, by people other than those who can be clearly identified as being army or police personnel).

And again, how would you define a weapon? What about those sharpened bamboo poles. What are they for?

Yes I saw picture of red shirts holding M16 abandoned by the soldiers , those weapons were returned to the police . Or do you think it would had been better to leave those weapons on the pavement and have children pick em up ad injuring themselves ? What i did not see however is red shirts firing weapons .

And lets define weapons as firearms or explosives , else everyone with a swiss army folding knife is also armed , myself included

[whybother]

Agree 100% with what you say . Not a single picture or video of red shirt comitting violence , though i saw videos of soldiers shooting at reds

Didn't you see the videos of reds on the night of the 10th hiding behind poles and shooting at soldiers. They were in amongst the reds, which makes them reds in my book.

[animatic]

The United States Government hasn't ever found or declared the Red Shirts to be a terrorist organization, nor is it about to make or declare such a finding.

Its not a terrorist movement , thats why . Plain and simple

That just means they were not reviewed during the roll up to the CURRENT official listing of terrorist groups.

So technically not a terrorist group for USA, at the moment, but that doesn't mean it couldn't change.

It the Ronin Warriors go off the reservation after a deal is done they don't like, the whole equation will likely change.

[Jerrytheyoung]

I salute the efforts of US assistant Secretary Of State Mr. Campbell. Any attempt to narrow the Gap is a good thing.

Against those who have decided not attending the meeting: "La politique de la chaise vide n'est pas productive". (The policy of empty seat is counterproductive).

Edited May 10, 2010 by Jerrytheyoung

[pornsasi]

Within the ranks of the Red-Shirt demonstrators are some armed soldiers, effectively a paid militia to serve as a perimeter defense, to deter the police and army from overrunning the UDD camp and apprehending the core leadership in a sudden rush. These security forces are a mixed lot, ranging from well-trained and well-disciplined members of the Thai army, ex-ranger tigers, and some CNF ex-police, down to bangkok mafia enforcers and under-bosses, and an assortment of gun-toting betel-spitting yahoos from the paddies of over a dozen amphurs. The problem guys are gun-nut wingers, who got M79 equipped for this show, and are trying to foment a serious shoot-out, which will paint the police and army in blood. This was included in the price when they were hired for the security work, and the UDD core leadership is not happy with it, but there are a couple things preventing them from kicking these a55holes out of the ranks. Most importantly, they cannot totaly disagree with the argument put back to them by the shoot-first cadre that dirtying the police and army with blood is maybe the only viable counter right now against an army coup to hold the government in an other arbitration, dissolution, and re-election sale this year. The UDD does not want that. The UDD call for immediate dissolution and re-elections stems from the same countenanced loss of oppotunity.

The democrats waiting until November is counting on that outcome exactly to put the next round of elections into a time-frame that permits forming a different coalition of parties. The other problem with disentanglement from the shooters is a loss of vital components of that security, with intel from back-channels out of the police HQ, which are their vital signal to use their "out" before a real raid penetrates their camp to grab up the key leaders.

So the classic deal with the devil you know has them stuck, and the violence is getting serious.

This is a plain old bad time for everyone.

The same old guys are just parked on this topic, wanting to make their opinions into fact de-facto by just repeating them over and again pi55ing on every new contrib to the thread. BARF! Do your pathetic thing to mine, too. I don't care about bored punk-attitude outsiders who heckle from the side-lines.

You should have some respect. The Thai people are a beautiful bunch, and their country and history are seriously cool. They have come to the moment of truth on their political machinery, and have to step into the 21st century with it, good and bad with all of this mess. The process is messy enough on the loyalty re-shuffling level, but on top of which it is being harrassed by a bunck of KEE-NOK gun-talkers. I am sad the Thai people are getting robbed of this momentary opportunity for a breakthrough. The statements of the leaders on both sides do not go to much trouble to sound intelligent when there is killing taking place. They should be doing their best work right now on winning people with ideas, but the public debate has lost all imtimacy, and Thais are horrified by the criminal violence being thrown upon the scene by the shooters. I am glad Campbell put the US in a conciliatory position last week, but now more must be done, and the US cannot help much from a perfectly balanced middle spot on the fence. Good time for a gut-check. Good time to check your hate at the door, too. The carefully played police and army presences are left with no options now. Some of the eye to eye killing that is coming is gut-wrenching to think about. Soldiers on both sides will recognize former colleages and even family in their sights as they end this thing.

My friend, i hope the moderator ban you, i hope people like you will be banned from all forum in this world, MAFIA? im Italian, i dont see any mafia people there some days ago, i dont see a single weapon and im an ex soldier, i was a sniper, i think i can see also if they hide a gun down one tshirt.

You dont have respect for people that come from upcountry in the week end after work for jont them, for the real thai people that are there only for have better condition in theyr poor life, and again show the evidence, show a picture of this " some armed soldiers" were they are? I see only 1 ex ranger there the security gard of Seh Deng nothings else.

"paid militia to serve as a perimeter defense to deter the police and army from overrunning the UDD camp" what they use for defense theyr hand? very dangerous.

I think the media had make hundreds of picture and video.....no one show a single weapon.

Also The Prime Minister have the same idea:

"If the rally is not called off, protesters will face a very high risk. The terrorists will act again, they will use violence against protesters and their leaders," the prime minister said."

As i said before, stop talk show me the evidence of what you talk about and i will agree whit you, till that time shut up and stop make new account in Thaivisa for nothings.

PS: Dont use "SPQR" that was a Roman history, my history and you dont have respect whit your word also for that.

Agree 100% with what you say . Not a single picture or video of red shirt comitting violence , though i saw videos of soldiers shooting at reds

I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. I don't care where your sympathies lie but you can not say that you have not seen pictures of police and army being hurt. I'm not talking shots to the head here, but clearly there's tons of footage showing protesters beating or pushing or otherwise resisting the army and police.

Don't you consider this violence? Now, you can argue that it was provoked, instigated, "they did it first", self-protection or whatever, but in my book that does constitute violence.

I was talking about the use of firearms here , not punching or beating . Protest do turn violent in that respect sometimes everywhere in the word . But ppl dont die . Please remain focussed , irrelevant of your personal symphaties

[SICA]

<...>

I think the media had make hundreds of picture and video.....no one show a single weapon.

<...>

Strictly speaking, that's not true. Off the top of my head, there were images of a man holding an AK47 and the widely published image of another carrying an M16 on the night of April 10th. The UDD claimed that the man with the M16 retrieved and secured the weapon and that

it had been abandoned by army personnel. They later made a big display of all the weapons they'd retrieved.

Never saw any further speculation as to the identity of the man with the AK47.

There was also the shot of hooded man crouching between abandoned cars and holding a pistol during the Vibhavadi Rd. standoff on April 29th.

Now, we can all speculate as to the relationship and roles of these men/images. But I disagree about there not being any images or videos showing weapons (that is, by people other than those who can be clearly identified as being army or police personnel).

And again, how would you define a weapon? What about those sharpened bamboo poles. What are they for?

Yes I saw picture of red shirts holding M16 abandoned by the soldiers , those weapons were returned to the police . Or do you think it would had been better to leave those weapons on the pavement and have children pick em up ad injuring themselves ? What i did not see however is red shirts firing weapons .

And lets define weapons as firearms or explosives , else everyone with a swiss army folding knife is also armed , myself included

Plllleeeeaaasssee......! The weapons were returned to the Police when that actor was arrested and they were taken from his car? Or was it when the house of the Red Shirt guard was raided on On-nut Soi 13 and the arsenal was removed? Get real, the reds have been armed since day one, or do you consider the grenade attacks or assasination of Policemen as returning bullets and grenades dropped by the Army?

[oceano]

Within the ranks of the Red-Shirt demonstrators are some armed soldiers, effectively a paid militia to serve as a perimeter defense, to deter the police and army from overrunning the UDD camp and apprehending the core leadership in a sudden rush. These security forces are a mixed lot, ranging from well-trained and well-disciplined members of the Thai army, ex-ranger tigers, and some CNF ex-police, down to bangkok mafia enforcers and under-bosses, and an assortment of gun-toting betel-spitting yahoos from the paddies of over a dozen amphurs. The problem guys are gun-nut wingers, who got M79 equipped for this show, and are trying to foment a serious shoot-out, which will paint the police and army in blood. This was included in the price when they were hired for the security work, and the UDD core leadership is not happy with it, but there are a couple things preventing them from kicking these a55holes out of the ranks. Most importantly, they cannot totaly disagree with the argument put back to them by the shoot-first cadre that dirtying the police and army with blood is maybe the only viable counter right now against an army coup to hold the government in an other arbitration, dissolution, and re-election sale this year. The UDD does not want that. The UDD call for immediate dissolution and re-elections stems from the same countenanced loss of oppotunity.

The democrats waiting until November is counting on that outcome exactly to put the next round of elections into a time-frame that permits forming a different coalition of parties. The other problem with disentanglement from the shooters is a loss of vital components of that security, with intel from back-channels out of the police HQ, which are their vital signal to use their "out" before a real raid penetrates their camp to grab up the key leaders.

So the classic deal with the devil you know has them stuck, and the violence is getting serious.

This is a plain old bad time for everyone.

The same old guys are just parked on this topic, wanting to make their opinions into fact de-facto by just repeating them over and again pi55ing on every new contrib to the thread. BARF! Do your pathetic thing to mine, too. I don't care about bored punk-attitude outsiders who heckle from the side-lines.

You should have some respect. The Thai people are a beautiful bunch, and their country and history are seriously cool. They have come to the moment of truth on their political machinery, and have to step into the 21st century with it, good and bad with all of this mess. The process is messy enough on the loyalty re-shuffling level, but on top of which it is being harrassed by a bunck of KEE-NOK gun-talkers. I am sad the Thai people are getting robbed of this momentary opportunity for a breakthrough. The statements of the leaders on both sides do not go to much trouble to sound intelligent when there is killing taking place. They should be doing their best work right now on winning people with ideas, but the public debate has lost all imtimacy, and Thais are horrified by the criminal violence being thrown upon the scene by the shooters. I am glad Campbell put the US in a conciliatory position last week, but now more must be done, and the US cannot help much from a perfectly balanced middle spot on the fence. Good time for a gut-check. Good time to check your hate at the door, too. The carefully played police and army presences are left with no options now. Some of the eye to eye killing that is coming is gut-wrenching to think about. Soldiers on both sides will recognize former colleages and even family in their sights as they end this thing.

My friend, i hope the moderator ban you, i hope people like you will be banned from all forum in this world, MAFIA? im Italian, i dont see any mafia people there some days ago, i dont see a single weapon and im an ex soldier, i was a sniper, i think i can see also if they hide a gun down one tshirt.

You dont have respect for people that come from upcountry in the week end after work for jont them, for the real thai people that are there only for have better condition in theyr poor life, and again show the evidence, show a picture of this " some armed soldiers" were they are? I see only 1 ex ranger there the security gard of Seh Deng nothings else.

"paid militia to serve as a perimeter defense to deter the police and army from overrunning the UDD camp" what they use for defense theyr hand? very dangerous.

I think the media had make hundreds of picture and video.....no one show a single weapon.

As i said before, stop talk show me the evidence of what you talk about and i will agree whit you, till that time shut up and stop make new account in Thaivisa for nothings.

PS: Dont use "SPQR" that was a Roman history, my history and you dont have respect whit your word also for that.

Serioulsy, my Italian friend, do your research before you start telling others how wrong they are. It has already been well documented that some of the red shirts and their guards have been or are armed. One expample, check out the Jazeera news video from the incident under the expressway a few days ago.

If there are no weapons, where do all of the grenades come from for example. I guess this is all just propoganda to you?

The original poster is posting his opinion, it was not a personal attack on you or anything Italian. As for the Mafia comment, do you live in Thailand?

Do you read my post and see some picture i post few post ago?

"If there are no weapons, where do all of the grenades come from for example".....do you read about? the bag whit the grenades was live there from one ex police man that try sell to them, nobody from the red buy from him and him live the bag because him was in the middle of 2 check point and him have fear to be arrested for carry weapons.

Mafia is somethings different, there are powerfull group in Thailand of " criminal organization" mafia style and terrorist style is very different from this people....

"been well documented that some of the red shirts and their guards have been or are armed"

SOME...this is the magic word, i said before, all party have their "gunmen" all party have their "bad men" but i dont like when someone said" ALL red/yellow/ pink are terrorist" and i show you the pic of some guard very dangerous and some police men that have fear about.

I know is not personal, if i talk same i think is a personal attack sorry is my english not what i feel.

Edited May 10, 2010 by oceano

[whybother]

I was talking about the use of firearms here , not punching or beating . Protest do turn violent in that respect sometimes everywhere in the word . But ppl dont die . Please remain focussed , irrelevant of your personal symphaties

So I'll ask again, didn't you see the videos of reds on the night of the 10th hiding behind poles and shooting at soldiers?

[pornsasi]

<...>

I think the media had make hundreds of picture and video.....no one show a single weapon.

<...>

Strictly speaking, that's not true. Off the top of my head, there were images of a man holding an AK47 and the widely published image of another carrying an M16 on the night of April 10th. The UDD claimed that the man with the M16 retrieved and secured the weapon and that

it had been abandoned by army personnel. They later made a big display of all the weapons they'd retrieved.

Never saw any further speculation as to the identity of the man with the AK47.

There was also the shot of hooded man crouching between abandoned cars and holding a pistol during the Vibhavadi Rd. standoff on April 29th.

Now, we can all speculate as to the relationship and roles of these men/images. But I disagree about there not being any images or videos showing weapons (that is, by people other than those who can be clearly identified as being army or police personnel).

And again, how would you define a weapon? What about those sharpened bamboo poles. What are they for?

Yes I saw picture of red shirts holding M16 abandoned by the soldiers , those weapons were returned to the police . Or do you think it would had been better to leave those weapons on the pavement and have children pick em up ad injuring themselves ? What i did not see however is red shirts firing weapons .

And lets define weapons as firearms or explosives , else everyone with a swiss army folding knife is also armed , myself included

Plllleeeeaaasssee......! The weapons were returned to the Police when that actor was arrested and they were taken from his car? Or was it when the house of the Red Shirt guard was raided on On-nut Soi 13 and the arsenal was removed? Get real, the reds have been armed since day one, or do you consider the grenade attacks or assasination of Policemen as returning bullets and grenades dropped by the Army?

Ex-army or serving army officers have weapons at home . What do you expect ? In the Philippines some of my friends , that are neither police or army have M16's at home , i saw those myself . Does not mean they are using them ? No ! That actor is a plant , obvious . We are talking about red shirts , not some nutcase shooting at army or police . If you have proof that red shirts shot the policeman 2 days ago or shot the grenade in Silom , show them , or else dont speculate non sense and waist everybody's time

[animatic]

Protesters have died in other protests this last week around the world.

Not all the Army and Police weapons have been returned.

People on the red side were definitely filmed shooting.

Oceano,

for most of the world using the word Mafia, is no longer ONLY a specific usage to it's origin in Sicily,

but a generic for organized crime groups. Russian mafia, Irish mafia, Thai mafia, Columbian mafia. Etc.

Outside of Italy, it is no longer considered specific to La Cosa Nostra. That's just the way it is,

and not a slur on Italians in any case.

Words in English often develop double or triple meanings in different contexts.

That said, while I don't agree with every point in the post you were angry about,

it was in general well put together and not mean spirited, and looked at some sad possibilities.

So I didn't understand why you were so upset.

[SICA]

Within the ranks of the Red-Shirt demonstrators are some armed soldiers, effectively a paid militia to serve as a perimeter defense, to deter the police and army from overrunning the UDD camp and apprehending the core leadership in a sudden rush. These security forces are a mixed lot, ranging from well-trained and well-disciplined members of the Thai army, ex-ranger tigers, and some CNF ex-police, down to bangkok mafia enforcers and under-bosses, and an assortment of gun-toting betel-spitting yahoos from the paddies of over a dozen amphurs. The problem guys are gun-nut wingers, who got M79 equipped for this show, and are trying to foment a serious shoot-out, which will paint the police and army in blood. This was included in the price when they were hired for the security work, and the UDD core leadership is not happy with it, but there are a couple things preventing them from kicking these a55holes out of the ranks. Most importantly, they cannot totaly disagree with the argument put back to them by the shoot-first cadre that dirtying the police and army with blood is maybe the only viable counter right now against an army coup to hold the government in an other arbitration, dissolution, and re-election sale this year. The UDD does not want that. The UDD call for immediate dissolution and re-elections stems from the same countenanced loss of oppotunity.

The democrats waiting until November is counting on that outcome exactly to put the next round of elections into a time-frame that permits forming a different coalition of parties. The other problem with disentanglement from the shooters is a loss of vital components of that security, with intel from back-channels out of the police HQ, which are their vital signal to use their "out" before a real raid penetrates their camp to grab up the key leaders.

So the classic deal with the devil you know has them stuck, and the violence is getting serious.

This is a plain old bad time for everyone.

The same old guys are just parked on this topic, wanting to make their opinions into fact de-facto by just repeating them over and again pi55ing on every new contrib to the thread. BARF! Do your pathetic thing to mine, too. I don't care about bored punk-attitude outsiders who heckle from the side-lines.

You should have some respect. The Thai people are a beautiful bunch, and their country and history are seriously cool. They have come to the moment of truth on their political machinery, and have to step into the 21st century with it, good and bad with all of this mess. The process is messy enough on the loyalty re-shuffling level, but on top of which it is being harrassed by a bunck of KEE-NOK gun-talkers. I am sad the Thai people are getting robbed of this momentary opportunity for a breakthrough. The statements of the leaders on both sides do not go to much trouble to sound intelligent when there is killing taking place. They should be doing their best work right now on winning people with ideas, but the public debate has lost all imtimacy, and Thais are horrified by the criminal violence being thrown upon the scene by the shooters. I am glad Campbell put the US in a conciliatory position last week, but now more must be done, and the US cannot help much from a perfectly balanced middle spot on the fence. Good time for a gut-check. Good time to check your hate at the door, too. The carefully played police and army presences are left with no options now. Some of the eye to eye killing that is coming is gut-wrenching to think about. Soldiers on both sides will recognize former colleages and even family in their sights as they end this thing.

My friend, i hope the moderator ban you, i hope people like you will be banned from all forum in this world, MAFIA? im Italian, i dont see any mafia people there some days ago, i dont see a single weapon and im an ex soldier, i was a sniper, i think i can see also if they hide a gun down one tshirt.

You dont have respect for people that come from upcountry in the week end after work for jont them, for the real thai people that are there only for have better condition in theyr poor life, and again show the evidence, show a picture of this " some armed soldiers" were they are? I see only 1 ex ranger there the security gard of Seh Deng nothings else.

"paid militia to serve as a perimeter defense to deter the police and army from overrunning the UDD camp" what they use for defense theyr hand? very dangerous.

I think the media had make hundreds of picture and video.....no one show a single weapon.

As i said before, stop talk show me the evidence of what you talk about and i will agree whit you, till that time shut up and stop make new account in Thaivisa for nothings.

PS: Dont use "SPQR" that was a Roman history, my history and you dont have respect whit your word also for that.

Serioulsy, my Italian friend, do your research before you start telling others how wrong they are. It has already been well documented that some of the red shirts and their guards have been or are armed. One expample, check out the Jazeera news video from the incident under the expressway a few days ago.

If there are no weapons, where do all of the grenades come from for example. I guess this is all just propoganda to you?

The original poster is posting his opinion, it was not a personal attack on you or anything Italian. As for the Mafia comment, do you live in Thailand?

Do you read my post and see some picture i post few post ago?

"If there are no weapons, where do all of the grenades come from for example".....do you read about? the bag whit the grenades was live there from one ex police man that try sell to them, nobody from the red buy from him and him live the bag because him was in the middle of 2 check point and him have fear to be arrested for carry weapons.

Mafia is somethings different, there are powerfull group in Thailand of " criminal organization" mafia style and terrorist style is very different from this people....

"been well documented that some of the red shirts and their guards have been or are armed"

SOME...this is the magic word, i said before, all party have their "gunmen" all party have their "bad men" but i dont like when someone said" ALL red/yellow/ pink are terrorist" and i show you the pic of some guard very dangerous and some police men that have fear about.

I know is not personal, if i talk same i think is a personal attack sorry is my english not what i feel.

1, 'Mafia' is a very common and widely used 'slang' term for the teams of crooks roaming Thailand.

2, I honestly don't think anybody on here is that uneducated to say that "all" Red protesters are terrorists. I certainly have never said this and never would. However you said in your original post that the reds are not armed. There are some of them that quite obvioulsy are.

3, Did you see the report of how man weapons were taken the from the house of one red shirt guard in On-nut Soi 13? That is just one person.

You post did seem rather personal when you told the original post to "shut up".

Relax. It's all about opinion.

[pornsasi]

I was talking about the use of firearms here , not punching or beating . Protest do turn violent in that respect sometimes everywhere in the word . But ppl dont die . Please remain focussed , irrelevant of your personal symphaties

So I'll ask again, didn't you see the videos of reds on the night of the 10th hiding behind poles and shooting at soldiers?

No i did not see videos of red shirts shooting at soldiers . Nor any proof if they did ,that they started .

Link please ?

[oceano]

I was talking about the use of firearms here , not punching or beating . Protest do turn violent in that respect sometimes everywhere in the word . But ppl dont die . Please remain focussed , irrelevant of your personal symphaties

So I'll ask again, didn't you see the videos of reds on the night of the 10th hiding behind poles and shooting at soldiers?

Can you show me the video?

Can you give me the evidence that a man in black was a red protestor?

Can you give the name of that man?

I think like all prime minister also the prime minister in thailand have " intelligence" or " secret service" work for him, also him said yesterday:

"Abhisit said only a group of terrorists wanted to under-mine the peace process because once the process was done, they would be alienated and would not be able to use red-shirt people as their human shields."

[Insight]

In this ridiculous violent/non-violent debate, this just in from Twitter:

@JackPrinya: If u're holding a sharpened bamboo pole & wearing a black ninja mask in this weather, sth tells me you're kind of an asshol_e

You guys have seen the clip where the wounded soldiers were dragged out the back of the pickup truck? What about the footage of the red shirts holding planks of wood and other items while raiding the hospital? This is scratching the surface.

The debate of whether the reds are violent or not is way beyond any rescue. You guys have missed the bus.

[pornsasi]

I was talking about the use of firearms here , not punching or beating . Protest do turn violent in that respect sometimes everywhere in the word . But ppl dont die . Please remain focussed , irrelevant of your personal symphaties

So I'll ask again, didn't you see the videos of reds on the night of the 10th hiding behind poles and shooting at soldiers?

Can you show me the video?

Can you give me the evidence that a man in black was a red protestor?

Can you give the name of that man?

I think like all prime minister also the prime minister in thailand have " intelligence" or " secret service" work for him, also him said yesterday:

"Abhisit said only a group of terrorists wanted to under-mine the peace process because once the process was done, they would be alienated and would not be able to use red-shirt people as their human shields."

Exactly ...

My friend , dont you understand the political game here ? Its not in the interest of the PM to have arrested hot-heads like Arisman or Sae Daeng . Why ? because from his (PM) point of view its much better to leave them roaming around and damage the red shirt movement from within .