More Bloodshed In Bangkok As Red Siege Continues

[ungcas]

NATION - "Three RPG rockets were fired at the Dusit Thani Hotel late Sunday night, prompting evacuation of tourists and reporters staying inside."

No doubt fired by an innocent, peaceful, unarmed, civilian protester who doesn't deserve to be shot by the army.

Note that not a single demonstrator who has stayed within the restricted demonstration area has been injured.

Note that not a single demonstrator who has stayed within the restricted demonstration area has been injured?

Please provide your proof.

Many demonstrator who has stayed within the restricted demonstration area has been DEAD or injured. Proof: Watch min 1:10 of this clip. This is inside the barricade, just in front of Chula Hospital, about 10 m from where Sae Daeng was shot DEAD

wow three posts, joined today

already defending everything red....

you know the moneys been frozen don't you?

10 points for your sharp eyes!

[jcbangkok]

Absolutely one of the most ignorant things somebody can try to claim is that the red mob people fighting the army are not armed.

[Squigy]

georgebkk Update: Nana, "less than two hours ago, troops lifted their barricade. A soldier declined to say why they had been sent to the area" /AFP

They left because the Issaner girls will have kill them with their stiletto heels....

I believe the Tanks will be brought in after 3.00pm today. It is that time to get heavy handed. The thugs have been warned over and over again.t

[pornsasi]

I see that the reds are unarmed as their leaders continually state.

I too wonder why CNN and BBC refuse to show this side as well.

These pistols are for shooting rats on the farm wont be accurate after 20 mtrs. I have been waiting 4 days for somebody to show me a link to reds with M16s.

Red with weapons

Need more? just Google images red shirts weapons armed etc see for yourself

Unfair, manipulation pictures from 10th April, weapons have been given back to Police/Army

My friend , tell me , what do you expect in this forum ?

[BKjohn]

I see that the reds are unarmed as their leaders continually state.

I too wonder why CNN and BBC refuse to show this side as well.

These pistols are for shooting rats on the farm wont be accurate after 20 mtrs. I have been waiting 4 days for somebody to show me a link to reds with M16s.

Red with weapons

Need more? just Google images red shirts weapons armed etc see for yourself

Thank you for this post .. wonder what arguments the reds here will try now ? sure they'll come up with some excuse ... toy weapons ?

[rabo]

As I said in another thread one can only wonder about the sense of injustice

as perceived by the reds and a large part of Isaan .

And wonder about its magnitude to the effect that protestors are willing to die for their

cause .

I dont think the military will ever try another coup again !

This is not a coup, sorry if that is not what you mean.

[andrew55]

Dear other humans,

Please try and control yourselves and not make remarks in bad taste about other people dying. You are much better to say nothing at all than something spiteful. Irregardless of which side of the fence you sit on, please don't be disrespectful to the dead, its not funny, its not smart, it just shows you're lack of intellect.

Seconded... I have just deleted a number of this type of post... any more and the offending member will be suspended from the forum.

Be Warned.

Thank you for deleting these posts. Those of us who can see the colour grey appreciate it. Do hope that these often threatened 'Holidays' etc are an absolute last resort though. Suggest that TV is a member's forum rather than a moderator's forum(Law breaking - lese Majeste etc excluded)

Imagine in an underpaid and overworked position as moderator not always easy. Easy to fall into the 'Ivory Tower' thing.

Hope my comment on moderation doesn't cross a line.

Keep up the good work Jai Dee and stay Jai Dee.

George always seems to word the warnings so nicely. Other mods seem to word provocatively(sometimes). Guess it's a grey old world mate and takes all sorts .

Again, great forum!

Thanks for your time.

Andrew

PS Shame that you felt shouting 'be warned' necessary. Jai Dee mate.

Edited May 17, 2010 by andrew55

[Oberkommando]

Obserkomando disgustingly implies that I said he was killed by soldiers for refusing to leave,

when all that was meant was:

He was told to leave because it was too dangerous,

he didn't, and was caught in crossfire or richochet.

What spin? I asked you if you thought a Thai ten year old has the metal capacity to make that decision given the circumstances and gravity of the situation.

You also mention it was "collateral damage, a crossfire or ricochet", I assume you have proof of this?

[pornsasi]

As I said in another thread one can only wonder about the sense of injustice

as perceived by the reds and a large part of Isaan .

And wonder about its magnitude to the effect that protestors are willing to die for their

cause .

I dont think the military will ever try another coup again !

This is not a coup, sorry if that is not what you mean.

I meant the coup in september 2006

[Oberkommando]

Absolutely one of the most ignorant things somebody can try to claim is that the red mob people fighting the army are not armed.

I'd like to see evidence. All I see are stone throwers and slingshots.

Thanks in advance.

[ChouDoufu]

Startrek used to list them in the credits as Redshirt #1, RedShirt #2 ....

great video, although unrealistic.

see the redskirt babes at 0:32, 2:35, and 3:40

certainly haven't see this quality of redskirt at the protest site.

had that been the case, there certainly would be more expat support for the cause.

[rametindallas]

Could be jumping to conclusions. Army declared they were not going to infiltrate, only close off. The rest is only a guess?

Didnt do much of a job of closing off.

Not just a guess actually. Earlier in the thread I suggested that the army should disarm before entering the encampment and, as I thought it was a good idea, I rang someone close to the Government. He said 'the military will never accept it, Abhisit does not control the military and they are pursuing their own agenda.' He also said you can see 'the military are shooting Thais while achieving nothing and that is not good either in the eyes of Thais or internationally.' He also said the 'police and military are corrupt to their very core.'

So yes there is quite a lot of guessing in there. But I know Abhisit is committed to reducing the influence of the army in Thai politics. Also remember there is the army reshuffle coming up and he wanted to replace the coup's constitution. There are some 3500 people at the encampment do you think the Thai army cant contain them when they can execute a coup in three hours.

So yes quite a lot of guesswork but it all seems to add up to me.

So it isnt hard to believe they are manipulating this protest - in fact it must be harder to believe they apparently cant contain it. Cutting the military budget and revising the constitution as well as having a say in the army reshuffle, I dont think would go down well. Thaksin got kicked out for mucking about with the reshuffle.

If you really believe Abhisit is interested in getting the Army out of politics, then please tell me why he has not used the police in this protest and let the Army do its job of protecting the country from outside dangers like from Burma or Cambodia.

Dear Sir,

The country you are referring to as "Burma" is called Myanmar.

Thank you

Sorry, but I don't let communists tell me how to pronounce something. It is Burma now and will be Burma in Burma in the not too distant future. What are you, a communist or just a 'fellow traveller'?

[whybother]

<snip>

Let's have 3 cheers for the Yellows and Multi-Color Shirts - who have shown remarkable restraint in not organizing any demonstrations and not putting forth any interference with the recent problems in Bkk. Can anyone imagine the Reds showing such restraint if the tables were turned?

The red shirts have shown time and time again that they will interfere with any gathering or protest that goes against their agenda, including multiple grenade attacks against the yellow protests in 2008, threats to the PMs life if he went to Chiang Mai, stopping the multi-coloured guy from attending a seminar in Khon Kaen.

Yay for RED DEMOCRACY.

[BKjohn]

Absolutely one of the most ignorant things somebody can try to claim is that the red mob people fighting the army are not armed.

I'd like to see evidence. All I see are stone throwers and slingshots.

Thanks in advance.

How much more evidence do you want than the pictures shown here and do you think the government launched 3 RPG rounds at the Dusit hotel last night ??

How about the motorcycle chap delivering M79 grenades to the reds who got caught ?

Or what about .... oh well its useless

another successful lobotomy

[VictorMeldrewBKK]

I see that the reds are unarmed as their leaders continually state.

I too wonder why CNN and BBC refuse to show this side as well.

These pistols are for shooting rats on the farm wont be accurate after 20 mtrs. I have been waiting 4 days for somebody to show me a link to reds with M16s.

Red with weapons

Need more? just Google images red shirts weapons armed etc see for yourself

Unfair, manipulation pictures from 10th April, weapons have been given back to Police/Army

If you believe they gave them back you must beleive it Santa Claus as well.

Of the 500 Israeli-made Tavor Tar-21 assault rifles seized by the protesters, only 200 were returned to the Army. Some M16s, had returned. The protesters also have M67 grenades, M79 grenade launchers and rocket-propelled grenade launchers.

[animatic]

Too bad about the fighting.

It is so sad the deaths and injuries.

I never post but I thought I might add to the place here with a post that is less childish.

I mean all we read is mostly anti red rants here and an occasional rant against the current Thai ruling class, that is quickly removed.

Thaivisa seems to be similar to Fox news.

if it is not rightwing, it is a lie says this site.

My two cents.

I predict the fight could go on for years. Perhaps one side or the other will win for a time but then the fight will break out again. We all can see the hate the two groups have for one another. The Anti Reds call the reds animals and worse.

No matter the nonsense we read here in this strictly controlled and right leaning site, we all know that if an election were held tomorrow, the reds would become the ruling party. This is precisely why it is that the Ruling regime has used coups and fake elections in the past 4 years. if they could defeat the Reds in a real election, they would simply invite in the UN and hold a very open election and win.

So the minority group, Now in power) with most of the power will not give it up without a fight.

Thus Bangkok could be destroyed over the next few years and Thailand could be turned into a wrecked third world nation. The fight could go on and on and on.

Most of you rich Thais will leave. Most all foreigners will leave.

But the fight will go on and on and on until the ruling class gives up.

My prediction.

Good luck all and stay safe.

Remember a rock in the head can kill you just like a bullet can.

Best wishes to all my friends there.

If the site is so controlled and anti-red, why is your post still here?

The reason most red supporters don't like this site, is because any propaganda that they spurt is usually put down with one or two simple facts.

Exactly. We WILL call a lie, a lie, rather directly in most cases.

Of course then we get called "Yellow Hordes" which is rather drole

considering that was the slur name for the every growing Chinese population

of which Red leader Thaksin is a standing, though not upstanding member.

So all the catchwrods are stood on their heads in this latest powerplay

and artificially induced social upheaval. Only Weng, an old school red before this,

seems to hew to the old school patterns... but used for nouveu riche reasons.

[earthpig]

more on the battle of bon kai, and why it is the key to the larger battle for thailand

The outcome battle of Bon Kai will determine the winner, if any, of this tragic war.

Both sides understand this. it is why Bon Kai has been the venue of the toughest and most persistent fighting to date, again claiming many lives in Bangkok's most vicious fighting Saturday and Sunday.

Why is it so important? Because from Bon Kai Red supplies are reaching Ratchaprasong thru Soi RumRudee and the Sarasin intersection on the north edge of Lumpini Park. This is because unlike other areas adjoing the Red encampment, Bon Kai is populated by Bangkok Reds.

On Saturday nite i interviewed Red guards at the Rumrudee/Wittayu (Wireless) intersection near the US Embassy. It was evident that these were crack troops, all graduates or current members of Thai Army and many clearly with commando experience.

Why put such valuable assets at this particular intersection and not, say, guarding the Red High Command? Today i returned to find out, and, among other things, found myself between Thai army and Red lines on Rama 4. See the YouTube video series "Bangkok Reds: The Battle of Bon Kai 16 May 2010" parts 1 thru 6.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QlXGCvhKTg...feature=channel

The first of three key findings is that the Battle of Bon Kai is being fought by local residents of Bon Kai. I didnt interview a single fighter who had come to Bangkok just for the recent demonstrations. All the Reds fighters were locals from Bon Kai and Klong Toei, even if many originally hail from Issan.

What we are witnessing in Bon Kai is an uprising, not like at Ratchaprasong an Issan invasion. It is true that most of the fighters i spoke with in fact spoke the Issan dialect; but the key point is that they are local residents. (Thai sources tell me something similar is happening in Ding Daeng, but I have no first hand knowldege.)

The second key finding is that supplies are streaming out of Bon Kai thru Soi Ruamrudee to Sarasin and Ratchaprasong. If the Army cannot control Bon Kai, it cannot seal off supplies to Red Center. And from today's action, it doesnt appear that the Army has the strength to take and hold an insurgent stronghold such as Bon Kai.

Quite to the contrary, as the Reds are establishing a new base in Klong Toei, it is the Army that is being sandwiched between Reds in Lumpini, Sathorn Road, and Rama 4. If the Reds break out of Sarasin and move south down Wireless, the Army will be surrounded. The Army may soon need to either reinforce its position, or evacuate it.

Finally, i could find no evidence of the Red claim repeated several times in Ratchaprasong that the battle of Bon Kai was between Thai Army and Police. Neither the residents of Bon Kai nor the officials i interviewed at the local fire station supported this version of events. Thus i conclude that despite the violence we are not witnessing an armed insurrection by elements of the the Thai state. This is a revolt by a powerful and committed group to be sure, but at least we are not facing the chaos of uniformed state instruments combating each other.

Still Bon Kai is the key strategic position. If the Army is in fact able to subdue the Reds there, Red Center can be cut off.

But if the Army cant, it faces defeat in the center of its own capital city, with consequences that are unimaginable.

[rametindallas]

Can someone tell me how much the 55 pages of discussion here have contributed to an actual solution?

None of course. What a silly question. The solution now is in the hands of the brave Thai soldiers fighting the red shirt insurgency.

In the scene where the guy gets shot. Where the soldiers towards the left. It appeared that way since it seemed like they were trying to build a wall. But it seemed the guy might of been shot from behind from they way his leg moved.

You have a good eye for detail. Thanks for pointing that out.

[OzMick]

Too much lao kao?

Reuters

An intoxicated anti-government "red shirt" supporter lies against a barricade made out of tires during clashes at Rama IV Street in Bangkok May 16, 2010.

Reuters

"Weng particularly warns reds not to steal and consume alcohol since it dulls your senses, causing unreasonable behavior" /via @terryfrd

[KhunVee]

Absolutely one of the most ignorant things somebody can try to claim is that the red mob people fighting the army are not armed.

I'd like to see evidence. All I see are stone throwers and slingshots.

Thanks in advance.

Then Read this:

QUOTE (timekeeper @ 2010-05-17 12:07:17) THANONG:Nation 17 05 2010

The purpose of this post is to quickly impart law-based information to inquiries perplexing some Thais and non-Thais. I reckon this is in the interest of the State and national reconciliation. If possible, please disseminate the information to all across the land.

This is also to remind all Thais (and non-Thais living in Thailand) of our duty to be familiar with our own law. Ignorance is not an excuse. Self-imposed illiteracy is vice, particularly when the nation is under crisis.

NOTE: This post is not contending whether the prescribed law is right or wrong. The data presented are not avowing whether the current law is just or unjust. This is simply to brief Thais and non-Thais to the reality of our Thai law as it presently is.

QUESTION: Can the government freeze bank accounts of anyone residing within Thai territory under Emergency Decree?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Does the government have to first obtain permission from the court?

ANSWER: No. That is one arbitrary right of the government under the Emergency Decree. Declaration of Emergency implies that the government can exercise actions which do not need court authorization as long as the actions are sanctioned by law.

Freezing back accounts of suspects the government deems as perpetrators of the national crisis is one arbitrary permit. The caveat is simply that there is sufficient reason to consider them as suspects assisting or perpetrating the crimes against the State.

QUESTION: If the government or security forces believe I am a perpetrator, can they also arrest me without a court-issued warrant?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION: Do I not have any right to resist or defend myself?

ANSWER: No – at least not at that particular moment in time. Your only right – under that particular moment – is to surrender to the arrest. If you are placed under detention, you only right – under that particular moment – is to comply. You can file the appeals later with the court, if you consider the government or security forces behaved outside the confines of law under the Emergency Decree.

QUESTION: Can the security forces execute me if I resist?

ANSWER: That depends on the nature of your resistance:

If you use a non-penetrating weapon to fight the security forces (e.g., batons, clubs, sticks, nunchaks - or even empty hand strikes such as punching or kicking), the security forces can counter with a constraining force (i.e., beat you into submission or take you down using any mechanisms to accomplish this end - just short of actually killing you).

If you use a penetrating weapon (e.g, knife, spear, sword, guns or grenades), the security forces can counter with lethal force (kill you right on the spot).

QUESTION: What if I throw stones or use slingshots?

ANSWER: Objects based on propelled trajectories are commonly though loosely classified as penetrating weapons. Thus, throwing stones or using slingshots can legally be countered by the security forces with lethal (deadly) force.

QUESTION: What if I just fight empty-handed?

ANSWER: Two elements are generally considered with respect empty-hand resistance. One is the actual physical assault itself. The other is the “intent” of the empty-hand assault.

If the intent of the fist strike, elbow strike, knee strike, leg strike or even a head-butt is viewed as to “kill or severely injure” the security troops, the troops can counter with lethal force. If the strike is viewed as merely to detract the troops from advancing, then the troops are expected to just counter with constraining force.

QUESTION: Going strictly by the penal codes, can the security forces then execute me right on the spot if I just strike them with my fist or elbow or knee or leg or head butt - or even just throw stones or use slingshots at them?

ANSWER: If the security forces view your empty-hand strikes or stones or slingshots as with intent to “kill or severely injure”, then yes – they can constitutionally and legally kill you right on the spot during an Emergency Decree.

QUESTION: So what should a person do when the region is under Emergency Decree?

ANSWER: Do what the government and the security forces tell you. Avoid confrontation with them at all times. Stay out of their path. If they arrest you, do not resist. If they place you under detention, follow their dictates until you can subsequently file the appeal with the court.

In other words, understand the law and use common sense. This also means that – under Emergency Decree – it is stark stupidity to claim “But I did not use a gun or grenade or knife or sward or spear. I was only fighting with my bare hands or just throwing stones or using slingshots.” Illiterates of law commonly do that.

[jcbangkok]

Dear other humans,

Please try and control yourselves and not make remarks in bad taste about other people dying. You are much better to say nothing at all than something spiteful. Irregardless of which side of the fence you sit on, please don't be disrespectful to the dead, its not funny, its not smart, it just shows you're lack of intellect.

Seconded... I have just deleted a number of this type of post... any more and the offending member will be suspended from the forum.

Be Warned.

So, we can stay in compliance ... can we get a better understanding of which rule this would fall under? Since you deleted the posts, I am not sure what we cannot say in terms of the dead. Will it result in a suspension if we say we are happy a Terrorist has been killed or making a comment such as "It is a good thing Hitler died" ... to be clear I am not making that comment about Hitler as I don't want to be suspended and just using it as an example.

[animatic]

Didnt do much of a job of closing off.

Not just a guess actually. Earlier in the thread I suggested that the army should disarm before entering the encampment and, as I thought it was a good idea, I rang someone close to the Government. He said 'the military will never accept it, Abhisit does not control the military and they are pursuing their own agenda.' He also said you can see 'the military are shooting Thais while achieving nothing and that is not good either in the eyes of Thais or internationally.' He also said the 'police and military are corrupt to their very core.'

So yes there is quite a lot of guessing in there. But I know Abhisit is committed to reducing the influence of the army in Thai politics. Also remember there is the army reshuffle coming up and he wanted to replace the coup's constitution. There are some 3500 people at the encampment do you think the Thai army cant contain them when they can execute a coup in three hours.

So yes quite a lot of guesswork but it all seems to add up to me.

So it isnt hard to believe they are manipulating this protest - in fact it must be harder to believe they apparently cant contain it. Cutting the military budget and revising the constitution as well as having a say in the army reshuffle, I dont think would go down well. Thaksin got kicked out for mucking about with the reshuffle.

If you really believe Abhisit is interested in getting the Army out of politics, then please tell me why he has not used the police in this protest and let the Army do its job of protecting the country from outside dangers like from Burma or Cambodia.

Dear Sir,

The country you are referring to as "Burma" is called Myanmar.

Thank you

Sorry, but I don't let communists tell me how to pronounce something. It is Burma now and will be Burma in Burma in the not too distant future. What are you, a communist or just a 'fellow traveller'?

People from Burma call it Burma.

There are Burmese people, no Myanmarians, nor Myanmarites.

Only the government calls it Myanmar.

The people only use that word when they

are talking with soldiers or government personnel,

and don't want to get in trouble.

[pornsasi]

Too bad about the fighting.

It is so sad the deaths and injuries.

I never post but I thought I might add to the place here with a post that is less childish.

I mean all we read is mostly anti red rants here and an occasional rant against the current Thai ruling class, that is quickly removed.

Thaivisa seems to be similar to Fox news.

if it is not rightwing, it is a lie says this site.

My two cents.

I predict the fight could go on for years. Perhaps one side or the other will win for a time but then the fight will break out again. We all can see the hate the two groups have for one another. The Anti Reds call the reds animals and worse.

No matter the nonsense we read here in this strictly controlled and right leaning site, we all know that if an election were held tomorrow, the reds would become the ruling party. This is precisely why it is that the Ruling regime has used coups and fake elections in the past 4 years. if they could defeat the Reds in a real election, they would simply invite in the UN and hold a very open election and win.

So the minority group, Now in power) with most of the power will not give it up without a fight.

Thus Bangkok could be destroyed over the next few years and Thailand could be turned into a wrecked third world nation. The fight could go on and on and on.

Most of you rich Thais will leave. Most all foreigners will leave.

But the fight will go on and on and on until the ruling class gives up.

My prediction.

Good luck all and stay safe.

Remember a rock in the head can kill you just like a bullet can.

Best wishes to all my friends there.

If the site is so controlled and anti-red, why is your post still here?

The reason most red supporters don't like this site, is because any propaganda that they spurt is usually put down with one or two simple facts.

Well the fact is , as reported by the free press ,that the army is killing civilians .

Forget your own propaganda and stick to the real facts

[OzMick]

Not my beef this one but here goes. A long time friend told me on his way back from Korat to Khon Kaen 6 days ago he passed, going in the Bangkok direction, 400-500 vehicles carrying red shirts. At police road blocks police appeared to be stopping them, asking for driving license and saying on yer way. Tend to believe my friends estimation, he worked in army logistics b4 retirement...so he can count

Huh

i thought their leaders had told them to stop wearing red shirts?

so how would he know?

Commonly known as "Blanket Counters"

Maybe, as a army logistics god he has some other special ability other than being able to count?

[LuckyLew]

Can someone tell me how much the 55 pages of discussion here have contributed to an actual solution?

None of course. What a silly question. The solution now is in the hands of the brave Thai soldiers fighting the red shirt insurgency.

Talk about your one-sided propaganda. BBC is no different than Pravda. Worse than CNN.

Saw this report on TV this morning

This reporter must be on the payroll

[Mekhong]

I see that the reds are unarmed as their leaders continually state.

I too wonder why CNN and BBC refuse to show this side as well.

These pistols are for shooting rats on the farm wont be accurate after 20 mtrs. I have been waiting 4 days for somebody to show me a link to reds with M16s.

Red with weapons

Need more? just Google images red shirts weapons armed etc see for yourself

Please forward to Dan 'Red' Rivers.

[earthpig]

In the scene where the guy gets shot. Where the soldiers towards the left. It appeared that way since it seemed like they were trying to build a wall. But it seemed the guy might of been shot from behind from they way his leg moved.

You have a good eye for detail. Thanks for pointing that out.

i can guarantee the man was shot from the front, not behind.

i was standing behind the cameraman when it happened.

All sniper fire was coming from the direction of Lumpini at the far end of Rama 4. Army snipers are in the tall condos near Lumpini and anyone in that area, residents and Reds alike, moves in absolute terror.

Army snipers are making Reds of everyone. Every bullet they fire shoots themselves in the foot.

[jcbangkok]

People from Burma call it Burma.

There are Burmese people, no Myanmarians, nor Myanmarites.

Only the government calls it Myanmar.

The people only use that word when they

are talking with soldiers or government personnel,

and don't want to get in trouble.

Thanks for that ... always wondered when I hear the different names and see it shown differently on a map. I had just did a google search too and this might also help understand if correct:

The name "Burma" is derived from the Burmese word "Bamar" (), which in turn is the colloquial form of Myanmar () (or Mranma in old Burmese), both of which historically referred to the majority Burmans (or the Bamar). Depending on the register used the pronunciation would be "Bama" or "Myanmah". The name "Burma" has been in use in English since the time of British colonial rule.

[LuckyLew]

My friend , tell me , what do you expect in this forum ?

I'll give you 500 Thai baht to be a rachaprsong at 2.55pm this afternoon

[pornsasi]

So, we can stay in compliance ... can we get a better understanding of which rule this would fall under? Since you deleted the posts, I am not sure what we cannot say in terms of the dead. Will it result in a suspension if we say we are happy a Terrorist has been killed or making a comment such as "It is a good thing Hitler died" ... to be clear I am not making that comment about Hitler as I don't want to be suspended and just using it as an example.

Looks to me more and more as its Abhisit who is acting like Hitler .

Many thais started to support him for his past moderation but now

that is changing