Pigs, Crocodiles, Scarabs

[eggomaniac]

I read that Thailand had some ancient symbolism that was strangely similar to Ancient Egypt.

One there are, or were, monks that kept crocodiles as sacred pets and crocodile symbols in Temples.

Also, ther were pigs in both milieus that took people who were headed for lower levels.

Finally, the scarab is apparently a symbol of great importance in Thailand, as well.

If any or all of this is true, is there an explanation?

--------

The Shivan and Vishnan influences in Thailand are directly attributable to migrations of Hindu monks form India.

[Brucenkhamen]

I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.

- Sir Winston Churchil

[sabaijai]

Where did you read that?

[Goshawk]

i've found the 'All Seeing Eye' or 'Eye of Providence' featuring very prominently in paintings & murals within the temples around Mrs Goshawk's village..

my first words to the head monk when i noticed this were.. 'that's the Eye of Horus...' I explained the Ancient Egyptian origins of this symbol (i'm sure he knew already) & asked him to define it as he sees it. He told me (exactly as i was expecting), 'it means enlightenment..'

i found this inter-connection of Thai Buddhism & Ancient Egypt very intriguing..

i'm sure most are aware that this old symbol is associated with freemasonry, the Great Seal of the United States & the one dollar bill etc.. But i never knew it existed in Buddhism too. Hmmm....

[eggomaniac]

Where did you read that?

Sabajai, it was in a book that I, finally, forced myself to read; a book so superfulous and inane that facts or descriptions would surely require verification, which I hope to find here. The mere mention of the Title could, properly, lead to scoffing indignation.

Before that, here are the passages that are the Subject of this Topic. I think you will surmise which Novel it is from and I don't have to be told it's not a great source for learning Buddhism. This is not my purpose in this Topic.

It is ONLY these descriptions which I wonder if they are true or not, because if they are true, it would be quite fascinating. It is from the 1860's.

------------

"Through twenty-five million six hundred thousand Asongkhies, or

metempsychoses,--according to the overpowering computation of his

priests,--did Buddha struggle to attain the divine omniscience of

Niphan, by virtue of which he remembers every form he ever entered, and

beholds with the clear eyes of a god the endless diversities of

transmigration in the animal, human, and angelic worlds, throughout the

spaceless, timeless, numberless universe of visible and invisible life.

According to Heraclides, Pythagoras used to say of himself, that he

remembered "not only all the men, but all the animals and all the

plants, his soul had passed through." That !!??Pythagoras believed and

taught the doctrine of transmigration!!?? may hardly be doubted, but that he

originated it is very questionable. Herodotus intimates that both

Orpheus and Pythagoras derived it from the Egyptians, but propounded it

as their own, without acknowledgment."

<< Does this mesh with most Buddhist teaching, the first 1/2 of the paragraph?

"But errors, that in time crept in, corrupted the pure doctrine of Buddha, and

disciples, ignorant or stupid, perverted its meaning and intent, and

blind or treacherous guides led the simple astray, till at last the true

and plain philosophy of Buddha became entangled with the Egyptian

mythology."

In the following paragraph is there 'really' a Wat with this picture of a pig taking souls? I would be apt to visit it on my next visit to Thailand. If somebody is close to that wat, I would love to see a picture. >>>

Over the portal on the eastern facade of the Watt P'hra Keau is a

bass-relief representing Final Judgment, in which are figures of a

devil with a pig's head dragging the wicked to hel_l, and an angel

weighing mankind in a pair of scales. Now we know that in the mythology

of ancient Egypt the Pig was the emblem of the Evil Spirit, and this

bass-relief of the Siamese Wat could hardly fail to remind the

Egyptologist of kindred compositions in old sculptures wherein the good

and bad deeds of the dead are weighed by Anubis (the Siamese Anuman or

Hanuman), and the souls of the wicked carried off by a pig."

IF this stuff is true, the corruption of Buddhism by Egypt pagan worship is one thing, but the trade routes and encounters of how this could have occured is, also, very fascinating. Is this 'fiction' or 'real' observations from the 1860's?

>>>

"In the city of Arsinoe in Upper Egypt (formerly Crocodilopolis, now

Medinet-el-Fayum), the crocodile is worshipped; and a sacred crocodile,

kept in a pond, is perfectly tame and familiar with the priests. He is

called Suchus, and they feed him with meat and corn and wine, the

contributions of strangers. One of the Egyptian divinities, apparently

that to whom the beast was consecrated, is invariably pictured with the

head of a crocodile; and in hieroglyphic inscriptions is represented by

that animal with the tail turned under the body. A similar figure is

???common??? in the temples of Siam; and a sacred crocodile, kept in a pond in

the manner of the ancient Egyptians, is fed by Siamese priests, at whose

call it comes to the surface to receive the rice, fruit, and wine that

are brought to it daily."

Finally, the scarab.

>>>

"The Beetle, an insect peculiarly ?sacred? to the Buddhists, was the

Egyptian sign of Phthah, the Father of Gods; and in the hieroglyphics it

stands for the name of that deity, whose head is either surmounted by a

beetle, or is itself in the form of a beetle. Elsewhere in the

hieroglyphics, where it does not represent Buddha, it evidently appears

as the symbol of generation or reproduction, the meaning most anciently

attached to it; whence Dr. Young, in his "Hieroglyphical Researches,"

inferred its relation to Buddha. Mrs. Hamilton Gray, in her work on the

Sepulchres of Etruria, observes: "As scarabaei existed long before we had

any account of idols, I do not doubt that they were originally the

invention of some really devout mind; and they speak to us in strong

language of the danger of making material symbols of immaterial things.

First, the symbol came to be trusted in, instead of the being of whom it

was the sign. Then came the bodily conception and manifestation of that

being, or his attributes, in the form of idols. Next, the representation

of all that belongs to spirits, good and bad. And finally, the

deification of every imagination of the heart of man,--a written and

accredited system of polytheism, and a monstrous and hydra-headed

idolatry."

and >>>""Six rubies, exquisitely cut in the form of

beetles, are worn as studs by the present King of Siam in

to his belief in a creator of all things, and in recognition of

the Divine Presence." 1860's

-----------

When I read these, it makes me wonder if there was 'interchange' with Jewish travellers. >>> Below.

http://sujato.wordpress.com/2010/01/16/the-five-precepts/

Hard to say – they’re probably independant teachings. The five precepts are more or less similar to pre-existing Indic moral codes, adapted by the Buddha, so should be dated pre-500 BCE. The 10 commandments were probably formulated in the Babylonian exile, maybe 600 BCE, so around the same period. It’s entirely possible that both were influenced by much older Mesopotamian ethics, but I doubt if there’s any evidence one way or the other. <<< ???

>>>

I. From the meanest insect up to man thou shalt kill no animal

whatsoever.

II. Thou shalt not steal.

III. Thou shalt not violate the wife of another, nor his concubine.

IV. Thou shalt speak no word that is false.

V. Thou shalt not drink wine, nor anything that may intoxicate.

VI. Thou shalt avoid all anger, hatred, and bitter language.

VII. Thou shalt not indulge in idle and vain talk.

VIII. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods.

IX. Thou shalt not harbor envy, nor pride, nor revenge, nor malice, nor

the desire of thy neighbor's death or misfortune.

X. Thou shalt not follow the doctrines of false gods.

Sabajai,

I hope you can see I am curious about when and where 'religious' influences 'entered' the World and the few paragraphs from Anna's, mostly vengeful, book are just a springboard.

-----------

As I have previosuly stated, I believe a Pantheon exists and the same Group recognised in different languages. Michael, Gabriel, Vishnu, Shiva, Zeus, Thor, Waugul, Tawa.

Archeological sites are undisputed proof of Other Worldy beings, if only just Super Aliens.

Some 'Buddhist adherents' claim Buddhism does not 'believe' in these Beings, but why is it written that Buddha talked to Brahma and Erawan???

Was is Sabajia or Cam who said that Indra handed over control of the Pantheon? [A Pantheon that doesn't exist? I can't quite let go of truth and logic to swallow that one.]

One thing I have recently learned about Buddhism, and one way it same/same with Christianity, there are just as many opposing religions, sects and offshoots in both umbrellas. The Japanese Buddhist Holy war of the 1930's and 40's is only one example. That was 'Buddhism' too.

Before 'studying' this Forum, I thought Buddhism was one big homogeneous religion. Sand has been removed from eyes on that one.

[eggomaniac]

Where did you read that?

Over the portal on the eastern facade of the Watt P'hra Keau is a

bass-relief representing Final Judgment, in which are figures of a

devil with a pig's head dragging the wicked to hel_l, and an angel

weighing mankind in a pair of scales.

Duh, I didn't realise the Wat in question was the Emerald Buddha Wat.

These photos might? be an example of the bass-relief written about, but not the one of the pig and Judgement Day.

[Xangsamhua]

Where did you read that?

Sabajai, it was in a book that I, finally, forced myself to read; a book so superfulous and inane that facts or descriptions would surely require verification, which I hope to find here. The mere mention of the Title could, properly, lead to scoffing indignation.

Eggo, you quote extensively from Anna Leonowens' The English Governess at the Siamese Court, which gets a bad press because it sensationalised her observations and she was a bit fast and loose with the truth. And, of course, it's not regarded as a significant text on Siamese Buddhism (as far as I know). However, the comments you quote indicate a knowledgeable mind, whether wayward or not, and the question of how these apparently Egyptian symbols came to be part of Siamese Buddhist symbolism is an interesting one.

Some comments:

1. I wouldn't be too coy about citing Anna Leonowens. More recent research indicates that she was a highly intelligent woman forced by circumstances to reinvent herself as an English governess (she was actually an Anglo-Indian widow) having been stranded in Penang on the death of her husband. She ran a small kindergarten in Singapore for a while and was well regarded. After she left Rama IV's service, in good standing, she maintained herself and her children as a journalist. Hence her account of life in the Siamese court was journalistic (i.e. highly coloured) and written to earn an income. But apart from this she was also a Sanskrit scholar, having pursued advanced studies in Leipzig, and a pioneer of adult education and women's rights in Canada, so her interest in and general knowledge of Indic influences as far as Egypt to the West and Siam to the East was not likely to be superficial. I refer you to Susan Morgan's Bombay Anna, (paperback, September 2009).

2. There may well be universal archetypal symbols and metonyms - the eye would be an obvious one, also the triangle, symmetrical patterns like the interlocking triangle "star of David"), the swastika, etc, the madonna and child figure, perhaps different styles of cross (including the fish-like intersecting curves used by the early Christians, etc - and we know of the frequent symbolic use of numbers like 3, 7, 12, 12x12 (144), 33, 40 and 500 in Jewish, Christian and Buddhist literature. So the appearance of the eye of Horus in Siam and similar symbols may not surprise us greatly, nor the low status of pigs for that matter.

3. I have no reason to doubt Anna Leonowens' contention that both Pythagoras and the Egyptians acquired their belief in metempsychosis from the Indus Valley region, but would have to research further, as I really don't know. That there are some similarities of interest and views from India to Egypt and the Greek States in the Buddha's time and before could indicate that there was some ongoing exchange of ideas along the trade routes through the Indus valley, Bactria, Persia, Mesopotamia and the fertile crescent (including Galilee) to Egypt and the Hellenic sphere of influence. The similarities might also arise, however, from the universal relevance of the sort of philosophical questions being asked. That is, they would have arisen even without the trade routes.

4. As I think you said, the perennial philosophical view that there is a "transcendental unity of truth" sourced in a monadic divine consciousness, but delivered to humans via culturally appropriate teachers and pathways, is not a Buddhist view nor that of any major religions except perhaps some minor subsets like the Unitarian Universalists and some Sufi schools. It is, I think, an attempt at closure (i.e. God as the ground of being and source of truth) while acknowledging the diversity of religious experience and faith. This is a reasonable view, but a speculative one nevertheless.

Anyway, thanks for raising these questions.

[eggomaniac]

QUOTE (eggomaniac @ 2010-05-18 00:37:51) QUOTE (sabaijai @ 2010-05-17 06:02:15) Where did you read that?

Sabajai, it was in a book that I, finally, forced myself to read; a book so superfluous and inane that facts or descriptions would surely require verification, which I hope to find here. The mere mention of the Title could, properly, lead to scoffing indignation.

Eggo, you quote extensively from Anna Leonowens' The English Governess at the Siamese Court, which gets a bad press because it sensationalised her observations and she was a bit fast and loose with the truth. And, of course, it's not regarded as a significant text on Siamese Buddhism (as far as I know). However, the comments you quote indicate a knowledgeable mind, whether wayward or not, and the question of how these apparently Egyptian symbols came to be part of Siamese Buddhist symbolism is an interesting one.

Some comments:

1. I wouldn't be too coy about citing Anna Leonowenssensationalized. More recent research indicates that she was a highly intelligent woman forced by circumstances to reinvent herself as an English governess (she was actually an Anglo-Indian widow) having been stranded in Penang on the death of her husband. She ran a small kindergarten in Singapore for a while and was well regarded. After she left Rama IV's service, in good standing, she maintained herself and her children as a journalist. Hence her account of life in the Siamese court was journalistic (i.e. highly coloured) and written to earn an income. But apart from this she was also a Sanskrit scholar, having pursued advanced studies in Leipzig, and a pioneer of adult education and women's rights in Canada, so her interest in and general knowledge of Indic influences as far as Egypt to the West and Siam to the East was not likely to be superficial. I refer you to Susan Morgan's Bombay Anna, (paperback, September 2009).

2. There may well be universal archetypal symbols and metonyms - the eye would be an obvious one, also the triangle, symmetrical patterns like the interlocking triangle "star of David"), the swastika, etc, the Madonna and child figure, perhaps different styles of cross (including the fish-like intersecting curves used by the early Christians, etc - and we know of the frequent symbolic use of numbers like 3, 7, 12, 12x12 (144), 33, 40 and 500 in Jewish, Christian and Buddhist literature. So the appearance of the eye of Horus in Siam and similar symbols may not surprise us greatly, nor the low status of pigs for that matter.

3. I have no reason to doubt Anna Leonowens' contention that both Pythagoras and the Egyptians acquired their belief in metempsychosis from the Indus Valley region, but would have to research further, as I really don't know. That there are some similarities of interest and views from India to Egypt and the Greek States in the Buddha's time and before could indicate that there was some ongoing exchange of ideas along the trade routes through the Indus valley, Bactria, Persia, Mesopotamia and the fertile crescent (including Galilee) to Egypt and the Hellenic sphere of influence. The similarities might also arise, however, from the universal relevance of the sort of philosophical questions being asked. That is, they would have arisen even without the trade routes.

4. As I think you said, the perennial philosophical view that there is a "transcendental unity of truth" sourced in a monadic divine consciousness, but delivered to humans via culturally appropriate teachers and pathways, is not a Buddhist view nor that of any major religions except perhaps some minor subsets like the Unitarian Universalists and some Sufi schools. It is, I think, an attempt at closure (i.e. God as the ground of being and source of truth) while acknowledging the diversity of religious experience and faith. This is a reasonable view, but a speculative one nevertheless.

Anyway, thanks for raising these questions.

Xangsamhua

I certainly appreciated and enjoyed the erudition of your comments, though the breadth of knowledge and level of vocabulary fair caused me to perform mental calisthenics.

On the topic of the OP, I would love to know if the bas relief she wrote about actually exists at Thailand's most famous Buddhist Temple and if the meaning ascribed is compliant. If there was by any a chance a website with all of the pictures and their official Buddhist meanings, that would be enlightening.

Your statements about Anna Leonowen served to increase my rather dim impression of her; then, the other day, while searching for who owned a certain Thai newspaper, I came upon this outspoken BLOG written by a Thai, who, funnily enough, was incensed by the underestimated stature of the lady. He talked of 8 laters which have recently been uncovered in Archives which points to her active role.

If you want the Link, you can PM me. It's a stretch to relate those letters to Buddhism, except to show, like you have pointed out, her comments on and about Buddhism could maybe be given more gravity than most of us think. She was educated, bright, connected and involved.

[eggomaniac]

I hope some of you will find this interesting.>>>

Radar reveals extent of buried ancient Egypt city - Yahoo! Canada News

Would this 'real' discovery, as compared to the 'unreal' one I Posted about the Grand Canyon, point to cross cultural influences between Asia and Egypt?

[i didn't know Semites were considered Asian!?

Egypt was ruled for a century from 1664-1569 B.C. by the Hyksos, a warrior people from Asia, possibly Semitic in origin, whose summer capital was in the northern Delta area.

Now if the find any references to ant people, as in Hopi legends, that would be sort of mind blowing, man.

[sabaijai]

The study of Hyksos origins is fascinating, but whoever they were their occupation of Egypt pre-dated Buddhism.

[eggomaniac]

The study of Hyksos origins is fascinating, but whoever they were their occupation of Egypt pre-dated Buddhism.

In the spirit of my original inquiry, the word 'and', instead of 'but' is surely more salient. It's, now, easy to see how Asian - Egyptian interactions pre-dating Buddhism could have led to these symbols and practices migrating into Thailand, even in the most prominent wats. Who knows, though, maybe the crocodile and scarab symbolism was introduced to Egypt from ancient Asian beliefs?

[i'll take a crocodile any day of the week.]