Thailand Rejects Reds Ceasefire Call As Nonsense

[Phuket Stan]

Wow...... where do u get those drugs from.....I want some of them .....PM your dealers number

Phuket. How did you know he was my dealer. By the way you got any free land for me down in Phuket.

Nothing for free in Phuket....you got to have money here boyo

[Democrat]

Wow...... where do u get those drugs from.....I want some of them .....PM your dealers number

Phuket. How did you know he was my dealer. By the way you got any free land for me down in Phuket.

Nothing for free in Phuket....you got to have money here boyo

I've got plenty of money but my dealer told me that was why the land is free. Must be the drugs.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Democrat

[Phuket Stan]

Wow...... where do u get those drugs from.....I want some of them .....PM your dealers number

Phuket. How did you know he was my dealer. By the way you got any free land for me down in Phuket.

Nothing for free in Phuket....you got to have money here boyo

that's not what my dealer told me..

Now we do know without any doubt you on drugs

[Democrat]

that's not what my dealer told me..

Now we do know without any doubt you on drugs

Maybe you need to do some research stan

[jayjay0]

It IS nonsense. No one can trust their word anymore, because they keep stalling. They should have negotiated in good faith before things got hairy; they need to stand down, before things get even worse.

I don't know what you were doing during hours and days that the initial negotiating was going on between the Reds and Abisit, but I sat glued to the tv with a friend who translated it to me. When each day was over, I asked what was agreed on? His answer was, no agreement. Abisit only know one word; NO.

This is not negotiating nor is it coming to a compromise. I don't speak Thai, but I do understand the international body/facial language, and what my friend says coincides with what I saw. Even he, who leans more towards yellow and definitely is not red, laughed and shook his head several times during the process at how unmoving Abisit was.

Perhaps if they had asked for something besides right now it might have been different. You really should get out more a whole day reading body language on TV.

[jayjay0]

If you read an today's article in MSNBC titles "Thai protests expose military rifts, incompetence", you will know why this has gone so long, also it show not only the incompetence in military and police also in all the level of Government including PM office.

God help the Thai people, this may go on for years

100% agree, seriously shocking incompetence by the military. If the country's military can't even put down a 5000 person revolt, <deleted> would they do if they were ever called into a real combat situation with an invading force?

At this point i can't even see why Thailand even has a military?

Get a clue, if Thailand ever has a real combat situation from an outside invading force, they would know the force is not THAI. They would do what they have done for hundreds of years...........Kick unholy A$ on those invaders. Please study Thai history before your irrational and very emotionally influenced opinion is made.

Oh because they did so well against the Japanese. Or i'm sorry they "allied" with Japan (is that what they are teaching in school these days?) and all those Thai's who died on the death railway did so on their own free will?

Siam Reap Cambodia [sorry about the spelling] Stands for Siam defeated.

[whybother]

Shocking fact of the day: 56 M79s have been fired since May 13 /via @tulsathit

All done by fake reds, I'm sure. Because all the protestors are peaceful and unarmed, ofcourse.

The reds call for a ceasefire, and UN mediation, and continue to shoot M79s!!!

Edited May 18, 2010 by whybother

[animatic]

Shocking fact of the day: 56 M79s have been fired since May 13 /via @tulsathit

All done by fake reds, I'm sure. Because all the protestors are peaceful and unarmed, ofcourse.

The reds call for a ceasefire, and UN mediation, and continue to shoot M79s!!!

And turn down their leaders call for non-violence.

They have done a crackerjack job of brainwashing these poor people.

And only NOW are the leaders realizing how far they have taken it...

Sadly it seems the army MUST go in, because the Red leaders

can no longer control the hyrdraheaded snake they have created.

When will the villagers come out with torches and pitch forks

to drive the monster to the top of the castle, and into the flames?

[hjvdhoef]

Someone here is supporting the Red Shirts? Are you mad? Thaksin is a criminal; he has been legally convicted; he jumped bail; he has been instigating and financing this madness for months or years. He should surrender, shut his mouth and serve his sentence and be very happy the courts did not seize ALL his wealth. The REDS who are setting fire on the main streets of Bangkok should be arrested and jailed for lengthy sentences. I am amazed the government has been so restrained. Were I the head of state I doubt I'd have the patience that this government has shown.

Very patient,only 59 death and thousand hurt,many for life time.You must be a madman.

[YORKSHIREPUD]

Good! You can't negotiate with anarchist criminals who have been shown remarkable tolerance thus far. Their criminal mob have held the Country to ransom for long enough and their concern for human life is hypocritically one sided stemming only from the desire of their leaders to get an amnesty so they can go off and spend Thaksin's millions.

I'm a bit late but HERE<HERE<HERE 'Steely Dan', you got it in one mate.

THAKSIN IS TOTALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THE DEATHS AND INJURIES AND TURMOIL IN THE HEART OF BKK.

How many people are now hurting because a father,Mother siblings, rest of Family and Friends have lost that loved one because of THAKSIN ????????

[Jingthing]

Shocking fact of the day: 56 M79s have been fired since May 13 /via @tulsathit

All done by fake reds, I'm sure. Because all the protestors are peaceful and unarmed, ofcourse.

The reds call for a ceasefire, and UN mediation, and continue to shoot M79s!!!

And turn down their leaders call for non-violence.

They have done a crackerjack job of brainwashing these poor people.

And only NOW are the leaders realizing how far they have taken it...

Sadly it seems the army MUST go in, because the Red leaders

can no longer control the hyrdraheaded snake they have created.

When will the villagers come out with torches and pitch forks

to drive the monster to the top of the castle, and into the flames?

The red shirt crowd loudly booed talks about a peace deal and threw objects at the stage. The reds don't want peace. So that means they want war.

[nakachalet]

Shocking fact of the day: 56 M79s have been fired since May 13 /via @tulsathit

All done by fake reds, I'm sure. Because all the protestors are peaceful and unarmed, ofcourse.

The reds call for a ceasefire, and UN mediation, and continue to shoot M79s!!!

And turn down their leaders call for non-violence.

They have done a crackerjack job of brainwashing these poor people.

And only NOW are the leaders realizing how far they have taken it...

Sadly it seems the army MUST go in, because the Red leaders

can no longer control the hyrdraheaded snake they have created.

When will the villagers come out with torches and pitch forks

to drive the monster to the top of the castle, and into the flames?

The red shirt crowd loudly booed talks about a peace deal and threw objects at the stage. The reds don't want peace. So that means they want war.

geeweez.... jingthing....

no.... the supporters do not want war....

they just want to get their hands on the 200,000 thb promised them, if and when, tuksin returns to power....

[sweeneythailand]

Thailand's class divide

Tuesday 18 May 2010

Thailand is a deeply divided society. Its level of social inequality is stark even in comparison with some of its regional neighbours.

A recent survey by the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) showed that the richest 20 per cent of the Thai population own 56 per cent of the country's wealth, while the bottom 60 per cent has less than 25 per cent.

This inequality is at the heart of the conflict engulfing Thailand at the moment.

Around five million Thais live below the official poverty line, which is equivalent to £23.60 per month. While the bulk of poverty-stricken Thais in the rural areas of the north and north-east, around 1.3 million of the total are the urban poor.

The past 20 years have seen an acceleration of urbanisation as rural inhabitants have migrated to the cities, such as Bangkok and Chiang Mai, as well as to the international tourist resorts of Phuket and Koh Samui, in search of jobs.

In 1980, around 70 per cent of the country's workforce was rural. Today the figure is just over 40 per cent.

However this urbanisation has not resulted in the creation of a stable working class and in turn accounts for the weak presence of an organised labour movement in the current struggles.

Figures show that out of 11 million workers in the private sector, less than 3 per cent were unionised. The labour movement is divided into as many as 10 different trade union congresses.

The private-sector unions are often only organised at a single factory level, therefore their average membership is just a couple of hundred per union, a figure well below the critical mass for effective struggle.

During 2008 and 2009, the Thai Labour Ministry registered only 133 labour disputes and six strikes across the whole country.

Around one-quarter of the entire urban Thai labour force is engaged in the so-called informal sector - in other words they have no stable employment, no contracts, no regular salaries and no social insurance protection.

The figure is even higher among the rural workforce.

Even in key sectors such as manufacturing and construction, informal workers make up 22.1 and 47.8 per cent of those engaged in these industries. In the transport and hotel industries (critically important to Thailand's tourism industry), the figures rise to 51 and 73 per cent respectively.

In total, around 65 per cent of the Thai workforce have no social insurance.

Despite Thailand itself being a low-wage economy, large numbers of migrant workers from neighbouring countries are also employed at rates substantially lower than the Thais. There are an estimated 1.6 million registered migrant workers and perhaps a million more unregistered. This depresses wage levels, makes union organisation among these vulnerable workers immensely difficult and provides convenient scapegoats for economic and social problems.

In the countryside, things are no better. Although a highly productive agricultural economy, Thailand's farmers face huge difficulties in making ends meet.

In 2003, there were 5.8 million families with agricultural land, but 1.4 million owned less than 0.8 hectares. As a result, rural families are often reliant on loans and remittances from relatives who have gone to the cities.

The rural areas have also suffered from deprivation in terms of poor infrastructure and communications, as well as unreliable access to education and health services.

This last point is crucial. Ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra built his support on providing cheap health care to the majority of Thais. If there is one single issue that secured his electoral base it was this.

Until recently, accessible health care was available to the wealthy and to those living in cities. According to the World Health Organisation, in 2000-6 there were four physicians for every 10,000 people in Thailand, compared with 12 in the Philippines and 15 in Singapore. Even socialist Vietnam, a country with a substantially smaller GDP than Thailand, has six doctors per 10,000 people.

The doctors who do exist are also concentrated disproportionately in wealthier regions. In Bangkok there is one doctor to every 850 people, but in the mountainous Loei province there is only one for every 14,159 people.

Thaksin's first government introduced the Universal Health Care (UHC) system in 2001 to provide affordable medical treatment for all Thais.

By 2007, 63.2 million people out of the total population of 66 million had some form of health insurance coverage. Around eight million were covered as employees contributing to the social security fund, six million as government staff, state enterprise employees or retirees or family members, 1.4 million were covered by company schemes and 0.6 million under other schemes.

However, it was opening up access to health care for the remaining 48.4 million of the Thai population that transformed the landscape.

This hitherto unprotected and neglected section of Thai people were issued with cards entitling them to health care for a fee of 30 baht (around 65p) per doctor or hospital visit. This fee was then eliminated in 2007.

According to researchers, this one scheme alone enabled one million Thais to rise above the official poverty line. It ensured Thaksin's political base.

This yawning social divide is at the heart of the current crisis. It is no longer hidden but has now become an undeniable part of the conflict that has moved well beyond a campaign to reinstate Thaksin. Thailand's democratic and class struggles are now effectively intertwined.

A turbulent history...

Few countries have suffered as much from the big screen as Thailand. Patronised in Hollywood's King and I, eroticised in the soft-porn Emanuelle and portrayed as a hedonistic playground in The Beach, this beautiful and complex country has been reduced to a series of Western-imposed cliches that fit the stereotypes of submissive, duplicitous and sensuous Orientals.

Official histories in Thailand are little better, portraying virtuous, noble monarchs leading a proud and united Thai people resisting foreign domination for century after century.

This is no academic exercise in historical debate. Conservative and semi-fascist forces in Thailand today attempt to portray the Red Shirt opposition as opponents of this idealised Thai nation. Rightwingers imply that the pro-democracy demonstrators are not really Thai, not simply that their loyalties are suspect but that somehow they have betrayed their bloodline.

Dr Tul Sitthisomwong, a lecturer at Chulalongkorn University's Faculty of Medicine, was quoted in the Thai media as saying that "speaking as a doctor, love for the country and the king was embedded only in Thais' DNA, not that of other peoples. It was a pity that many Thais had mutated and did not have the love for the king in their DNA and should not be called Thai."

Naturally the truth is a little more complex.

The modern kingdom of Thailand was internationally known as Siam until 1932. The word Thai is in derived from the term Tai, used to describe a broader ethnic group, who originated in south-western China and migrated southwards over 1,000 years ago.

Over several centuries, these Tai peoples gradually established their own principalities and statelets and fought long-running wars with neighbouring peoples, such as the Burmese, Khmer, Vietnamese and Malays, each seeking to stake a claim to contested territory.

Much of the land they settled in had once been part of a network of mixed Hindu and Buddhist states. This was a reflection of Indian cultural influence that stretched from the subcontinent through south-east Asia, reaching as far as the Indonesian island of Bali, which is still Hindu today.

These states were highly advanced, as shown by the famous Angkor Wat complex in Cambodia, originally built to honour the Hindu god Vishnu but adapted to later Buddhist influences.

Even today, the US-born Thai king Bhumibol includes among his titles Rama Maharaja - a reference to the country's Hindu influences. The Thai monarchy still uses many Sanskrit-derived terms in its honorific titles.

By the late 1700s, the ethnically Tai state of Siam had become a powerful regional force. It eventually settled its capital at Bangkok after Burmese invaders sacked its previous one at Ayutthaya.

As in feudal Europe, Siam was created as a result of the absorption and unification of a number of minor states through diplomacy, invasion or alliance. Its influence extended to a number of surrounding regions, some also ethnically Tai such as the Shan States in modern Myanmar, what is today Laos, parts of south-west China, as well as to weaker non-Tai neighbours such as the Malay sultanates and Cambodia.

However, with the arrival of European powers seeking colonies in Asia, a second set of factors began to shape the emergence of modern Thailand.

Despite Thai pride that the country was never colonised, the truth is that a helpless Thai ruling class bargained away large swathes of territory in ransom to British and French imperialism.

Following Britain's consolidation of colonial rule in India and in the Malayan peninsula, Britain looked to incorporate the patchwork of small principalities and sultanates that were under the Thai throne. By the late 1890s, the British empire had annexed the Shan States to British Burma and several sultanates to British Malaya. The French were no less active, adding Cambodia, a Thai vassal state, and the Tai-speaking territories of Laos, to French Indochina.

These steps effectively put Thailand in a vice, squeezed by the British from the west and south and the French from the east.

However, neither the British nor French were keen on directly sharing borders of their possessions. Thailand's independence was guaranteed, therefore, only as a buffer state.

An avalanche of treaties, invariably broken and then renegotiated to their benefit by the colonial powers, saw 25,000 square miles of Thai-controlled territory lost to the European colonialists in the 19th century.

In 1896, an Anglo-French convention defined spheres of influence in south-east Asia, which formalised Thailand's status.

As elsewhere, the arbitrary partition of territories to satisfy the desires of outside powers meant many unresolved territorial disputes and ethnic anomalies.

In recent years, three provinces in southern Thailand, Pattani Yala and Narathiwat, the remnants of the Malay sultanate of Pattani, have been the scene of a bloody insurgency by its ethnically Malay and Muslim inhabitants against the Thai state.

Border tensions between Thailand, Laos and Cambodia likewise have their roots not in a mutually agreed negotiation of frontiers but on those imposed on both countries over a century ago.

This country's fascinating history has again become a battleground as political forces on both sides seek to mobilise the ghosts of the past as allies in the struggles of the present.

Edited May 18, 2010 by sweeneythailand

[Jingthing]

Thailand's class divide

Tuesday 18 May 2010

Thailand is a deeply divided society. Its level of social inequality is stark even in comparison with some of its regional neighbours

You need to include the link and source! The above is from The UK MORNING STAR.

Originally published as the Daily Worker, the paper was launched as the organ of the Communist Party of Great Britain.

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.p.../view/full/5908 Edited May 18, 2010 by Jingthing

[dtarasin]

A recent survey by the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) showed that the richest 20 per cent of the Thai population own 56 per cent of the country's wealth, while the bottom 60 per cent has less than 25 per cent.

Well, in the US the richest 10% owns 80% of the nation's wealth. http://www.annarbor.com/news/opinion/our-n...invest-in-jobs/

I don't see the rural poor of America (along with their militias) going to Washington DC and holding it hostage for 2 months demanding the fall of the US government.

The fact of the matter is that what these red shirts are complaining about isn't unique to Thailand. Every civilized nation has to deal with inequalities in the distribution of wealth. Yes, these issues are legitimate complaints that should be addressed by any responsible government, but intelligent people realize that there will never be a perfect solution for this. And intelligent people don't hold capital cities hostage to complain that life is unfair.

[nakachalet]

mr sweeney....

your posted article makes an interest reading. however, there are numerous inaccuracies, but i would like to react to only some, because of time constrains:

Thailand's class divide

Tuesday 18 May 2010

Around five million Thais live below the official poverty line, which is equivalent to £23.60 per month. While the bulk of poverty-stricken Thais in the rural areas of the north and north-east, around 1.3 million of the total are the urban poor.

the proverty stricken population is more or less geographically divided. people in the southern provinces are relatively better off.... due mostly to the rubber, palm and mineral natural resources....

By 2007, 63.2 million people out of the total population of 66 million had some form of health insurance coverage.... However, it was opening up access to health care for the remaining 48.4 million of the Thai population that transformed the landscape.

just how many millions are there in thailand....? adding your figures 63.2 and 48.4 mil would exceed 66 mil by many mil....

Despite Thai pride that the country was never colonised, the truth is that a helpless Thai ruling class bargained away large swathes of territory in ransom to British and French imperialism.

which is more prudent....? fight a war with sticks and stones which you can not win.... or negotiate to save many lives, in addition to independency....?

would sweeney fight or negotiate....?

In recent years, three provinces in southern Thailand, Pattani Yala and Narathiwat, the remnants of the Malay sultanate of Pattani, have been the scene of a bloody insurgency by its ethnically Malay and Muslim inhabitants against the Thai state.

this is where you and numerous other historians are absolutely and completely wrong.... in stating that the insurgency is against thailand....

i do not wish to belittle you or others for propagating such absurd conclusion....

mr sweeney.... have you been in thailand long, sir?

can you recall any bloody insurgency in the south before and during premier chuan era....?

when then has the bloody insurgency begun, sir?

you are right sir.... all these bloody vengeance and insurgence started during tuksin era....

most of southerners are independent and they can think for themsleves....

therefore.... to use "unlawful" and unreasonable forces as tuksin did, during his almost two terms as premier, against the southern muslim brothers and sisters, has caused numerous current southern bloody problems.... to say the least....

if i remember correctly tuksin is the only leader that avoided pattanee, yalar and narrathiwart at all cost....

there are many other inaccuracies.... and others might want to address them at their leisure....

[SiangDeeMahk]

Use the acoustic weapons and also put them to sleep.....

So inundate them with André Roux, Enya, The Carpenters

and William Shatner Sings Holliday Favorites.

Alternate with Ray Price's singles from his late 60's 'countrypolitain' period.

If this doesn't send them running for the hills nothing will.

:::nods earnestly::: Yes, Shatner IS an acoustic weapon. Definitely.

I'm experiencing debilitating effects, by just THINKING about his voice. In fact, I think I just puked a little in my own mouth.

(which is generally more socially acceptable than puking a little bit in someone ELSE'S mouth)

on YouTube

Ok kids, so what have we learned today?

1) be carefull what you eat, before tossing a Shatner record on the turntable

2) the Thai Government still has several options to explore if sniping the Reds out of Rachaprasong doesn't work

3) putting Captain Kirk in front of a micorphone is the quintessential definition of NONSENSE

Ooohhh.. MASTERSTOKE!! I just realized, the world that Captian Kirk lives in (the Star Trek universe), has no more rich or poor people, and in fact, no money (or need for it) at all. Maybe Shatner IS the answer, after all!! Coincidence...?? Or maybe I'm just too tired..

[RWA]

It IS nonsense. No one can trust their word anymore, because they keep stalling. They should have negotiated in good faith before things got hairy; they need to stand down, before things get even worse.

I don't know what you were doing during hours and days that the initial negotiating was going on between the Reds and Abisit, but I sat glued to the tv with a friend who translated it to me. When each day was over, I asked what was agreed on? His answer was, no agreement. Abisit only know one word; NO.

This is not negotiating nor is it coming to a compromise. I don't speak Thai, but I do understand the international body/facial language, and what my friend says coincides with what I saw. Even he, who leans more towards yellow and definitely is not red, laughed and shook his head several times during the process at how unmoving Abisit was.

I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS! WHO was that friend of yours who did the translations for you?! I haven't been glued to the TV, I was just listening to the radio in my car on the way to work ... just like any other day. AND MY THAI IS FLUENT, half native. I can't claim to an expert in politics and it was also for the very first time I could hear any "talking" by Mr. Abhisit ... I understood, Mr. Abhisit originally scheduled 1 (or 2 - not sure by now) hours meeting with these "Red Leaders" and it's been prolonged mightily (still going on when I drove back home from my office) - and, moreover (after these long hours of shear nonsense these "red people" have been yelling at the face of the country's PM, without even slightest attempt to actually LISTEN to what PM was trying to tell them) Mr. Abhisit still yet offered to meet them in the next day again, hoping they might be "better prepared" so to talk some sense, to be able to reach some conclusions. It was incredible ... If I was in Mr. Abhisit's shoes, I would leave this meeting within the first half an hour! - never willing to get back to it again! I will never understand how come the PM haven't lost his patient with them even for once ... He was very polite, gentle, civilized, intelligent, truly willing to NEGOTIATE (and that means to LISTEN and TALK, Reason and Oppose) but this bunch of people there was extremely rude, talking a nonsense without any concept, demanding impossible, hardly letting Mr.Abhisit to finish one sentence without idiotic interruption, completely deaf to what the PM might say, just yelling at him like on the street market ... as i said earlier, I am not a "political minded" person, so I easily can be missing something important here, but I just could NOT work out what this whole meeting was about - in fact... What was it what these RED People actually wanted to present and negotiate with the PM ?!!!

... anyway ... you perhaps should not asked your friend : "What was agreed on" ... but: "What the heck they do want", instead ... This way you might better understand Mr. Abhisit's : "NO" attitude.

[misterjag]

The red shirts do not want an unconditional ceasefire. They will only make more impossible demands. Why is the foreign media supporting the red side. Why are they ignoring that the reds have arms as well?

I agree. They don't get it. The reds have lost all credibility.

The reds shirt were winning last week. If they had accepted the Roadmap then they could have gone home happy and victorious. But we all see what happened...........

The Red Shirt leadership grossly miscalculated the political landscape. They should have seized on Abhisit's compromise offer, negotiated the terms of an amnesty for non-combatants and decamped. Instead they tried to get the government to indite itself for excessive violence. How could they seriously believe that was going to succeed?

[BKMITCH]

Good! You can't negotiate with anarchist criminals who have been shown remarkable tolerance thus far. Their criminal mob have held the Country to ransom for long enough and their concern for human life is hypocritically one sided stemming only from the desire of their leaders to get an amnesty so they can go off and spend Thaksin's millions.

Where do you get such garbage? They want democratically elected governments to be left alone to rule without the elitist army backed thugs removing them from power and then slaughtering them in the streets when they protest. It's the government who are the criminals.

Do you believe the way to achieve what they want is to die for it? I have seen how things go when they don't get what they want. The demonstrate without regards for their lives as well as other.

VOTE!!!!

[george]

Closed. This story continues here:

Red-Shirt Leaders Turn Themselves In At National Police Office

Rajprasong rally ends; protesters to go home

Full story:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Red-Shirt-Le...al-t366886.html

Live updates Wednesday:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Bangkok-Red-...html&st=100