Battle In Bangkok - This Is No Peasant's Revolt

[harsh4]

I agree that the Red Shirt leadership were foolish in not accepting Abhisit's compromise without trying to attach ridiculous conditions, but fail to understand how their surrender yesterday meant they abandoned their followers. Were they supposed to encourage their followers to fight to the death?

This is a stupid and irresponsible editorial.

the moment the Red leaders were in danger themselves they either scurried away like cockroaches or eagerly made themselves the army's bitches. This in total contradiction to their continuous "fight to the death" chants that they brainwashed their not so bright flock with. Unfortunately,when the Red leaders finally decided to chicken out with their promises/threats, they had brainwashed enough of their flock to want to kill, maim, destroy and otherwise act recklessly, without any thought of human compassion. The Red shirts have changed their followers into animals.

I am hearing that the reds who were promised cash prizes when they 'won' their 'crusade' i.e. when government gave in and parliament dissolved (30k to 50k per family) are now worried they will not see that money thus all this anger and frustration too...Thaksin promised them the moon but it's not be...yet anyway... Are any media organizations talking about this angle rather than just harping on the oft beaten 'fight for equality' manipulated bs....the section that was driven by the monetary rewards is left up in the air...BBC and CNN want to estimate the percentage of the reds in this category ?

[LivinLOS]

The reds were and remain a cult.

Isnt that spelt with an N ??

[StreetCowboy]

8>< NESTED QUOTES DELETED ><8

I said most , not per se your kind.How about the sexpats and deviants who come in their hordes to satisfy their desires without a thought of how those who do it for them ended up in their plight. The jetsam and flotsam of second class Thai citizens who never had a choice , no education , no opportunities. Now that their frustrations overboil some farangs here whinge that the Thailand of their dreams or should I say playground is no more. Hey, it's an extreme hardship for some to be housebound by the curfew. Who feels sorry for them? Not me. Let them go home where it's safe and cosy and where they have some rights others in Thailand don't have. At least these farangs have a choice but not the Issaan poor.

Have you no consideration or compassion for us unthinking sexpats and deviants? I actually came on my own - a horde suggests some sort of group or community. You are comparing us to ants, when we are more like cockroaches, who may exist in large numbers, but all act as individuals without co-ordination.

Luckily, as you say, we have a choice, since we benefit from education and social structures that emphasise individuality, freedom of thought and of action, and, though sadly too little, individual responsibility, whereas the Issaan poor are a peasant class at the bottom of a feudal hierarchy that is enforced through economic and cultural repression at all levels of society in the North East. Through sociable intercourse with the daughters of this culture, I do my own little bit to try to bring a breadth of vision and understanding, in support of what the elected democrat government tries to do with its free education.

Unfortunately, I believe that a lot of the money I spend gets ploughed back into repression through the family system, just as the government's investment in education is pilfered or hijacked - there is a better word, but it eludes me - by corrupt administrators in the provinces, who have a vested interest in throttling the education of their neighbours and Issaan compatriots.

SC

Edit: amendments as shown, to remove logical inconsistencies and enhance oratorical demagoguery

Edited May 20, 2010 by StreetCowboy

[Democrat]

This is a stupid and irresponsible editorial.

Wrong..... Red Shirts = lost the last election = sore losers.

In 2007, free and open election....red shirts (Puea Thai) only got 36% vote. But they still formed a coaltion govt with other parties. After their first two choices for PM were removed on technicalities...they still controlled the govt thru their coaltion. BUT....Newin/Bhumjai withdrew from the coaltion..legally, per democratic process...and formed a new coalition with Democrats and other parties....who had the MAJORITY of duly elected MPs. The government of Abhisit is the duly elected government. Any attempt to deny this is anti democratic. Period.

Red Shirts - Puea Thai... will not get more than 20% of the vote next time. The country is sick of their violence and anti democratic bully tactics...incited by the most corrupt PM in Thai history....megalomanica Thaksin...the butcher of Tak Bai.

They got 36% of the vote + 40% for murdering PTT party members, suppression and junta control of the media and polling stations - 3% for vote buying + 3% for vote buying on the other side. Still 76% for the reds is a clear majority. Before you sprout go check your facts. Newin/Bhunjai withdrew WHY? open your eyes Thaksin and his cohorts are @#$# Abhisit and his cohorts are exactly the same. Difference Abhisit has started the killing and injuring of a lot of people. Now many gangs a lot of them red protesters are looting and burning. A smart pm could have avoided this.

[otherstuff1957]

I've posted this map before, but some people are more interested in expressing their wishful thinking than in facts. Here are the results of the most recent elections by province:

and here are the numbers:

Party Constituency Proportional TOTAL Seats

People's Power Party 34 233

Democrat Party 165

Thai Nation Party 37

For the Motherland 24

Thais United National Development Party 9

Neutral Democratic Party 7

Royalist People's Party 5

Valid votes 71,772,667* 100 400 35,535,767 100 80 480 No Votes 906,216 2.32

Invalid Votes 2,539,429 6.51

Total Turnout 38,981,412 85.38

After the by-elections to replace disqualified Party List candidates, the PPP's replacement party (PT) had fewer than 200 seats. I might also point out that NONE of the PT MP's were elected as members of that party!

Edited May 20, 2010 by otherstuff1957

[Steely Dan]

HUGE SECTARIAN CHASM?????

From your post,it is you who are doing this.How the hel_l do you know that farangs who seem to be pro-reds are being influenced by their issan gf/wife.Your post tries to make it clear that your gf/wife is NOT from Issan,as though its some sort of no no to love an issan lady.

This is the whole reason why there are problems in Thailand with views like you.I believe the reds have lost a lot of supporters due to this rioting in Bangkok,but let me tell you one thing,there is plenty of hatred towards bangkok thais and farangs by thai people in Chonburi,so think about that please.

Could I just ask you how big do you think this so called 'Chasm' is compared to similar wealth gaps in places like Brazil, Mexico or even China? It takes more than a wealth gap to cause the 'hatred' you refer to, it takes brainwashing, spoon fed hatred and a scapegoat on which to blame your supposed ills. I have also noticed that every Farrang who condemns the red behavior is labeled hi-so just to perpetuate your class war mentality and there is also a disturbing trend to blame the ethnic Chinese, even though the red's deity himself has Chinese blood. It is a complex question as to exactly how wealth divides happen; I think it would be stepping close to racism to state one ethnic group to be superior to another, however culturally there are differences and cumulatively over many generations these make huge differences to wealth.

Perhaps if the people who think themselves disadvantaged could chew on the following;- They are net recipients of tax revenue from the South, which no doubt will be greatly reduced due to the stupidity of their own actions. Emphasis on education, saving (deferment of gratification), moderation (drink & drugs), self-reliance (not wanting a P'Fallang or P'Thaksin to act as a giant atm) would go a long way towards curing the perceived injustices.

I think the blaming of outsiders for their own situation is a manifestation of self-loathing projected onto others. Granted equal access to health/education and rights are desirable and Abhisit was addressing these, but a little mature introspection seems to be completely lacking in the red mindset.

[citizen33]

Unfortunately there is nothng quite as radicalising as having fellow protestors falling dead and wounded. The redshirt camp contained large boards with photographs of casualties. I haven't seen a recent definitive count of the total number of deaths, but would be surprised if it is less than 50. In some cases bodies are being sent home to Isaan - two to Sisaket about two days ago.The army has suffered relatively few fataliities. As the reports have said, this has enraged the protesters. I saw film yesterday of young men running as troops fired bursts at their departing backs, killing one, and wondered what those who got away would want to do next. A hot-headed minority have become rioters, pulled in some very undesirable urban elements, and damaging their own cause. But for those watching from Isaan the picture still looks very different than it does to a businessman or expat in Bangkok. They feel a sense of deep injustice - their blood against Bangkok's property. To me the crackdown has been a disaster. We've got to a place that nobody would want to have started from, and there is a risk that things will get worse before they get better.

[Netfan]

What was burned undoubtedly proves the notion that this was pre-planned. Of all the banks that were burned, the overwhelming majority were Bangkok Banks. <snip>

A couple of brief histories:

Chin Sophonpanich was the founder of Bangkok Bank.

Born to a Chinese immigrant father and a Thai mother in Thonburi (Chinatown), Chin's daughter-in-law, the Khunying Kalaya Sophonpanich, wife of Chote Sophonpanich, is currently serving as the Thai Democrat Party's Minister of Science and Technology.

Tiang Chirathivat was the founder of Central Group.

In 1927 22-year-old Tiang traversed the sea from Hainan in Mainland China to settle down in Siam. He married Khun Whan and had the first child. The family business began as a tiny retail outlet in Thonburi (Chinatown). The store moved to Charoen Krung Road, at the corner of Captain Bush Lane in Bangkok's Si Phraya district. The single unit shophouse sold a large variety of local and international newspapers and magazines and carried the name "Central Trading Store, the first chapter of Central Department Stores history.

Immigrant bashing - congrats you are now a US Republican!

It's very interesting now that it is becoming harder and harder to justify the red actions (although a shocking number of their cheerleaders are excusing the arson), they are now turning back to bashing the "elites" and attaching an ethnic side to it. So a few questions to those who want to get rid of the elites, seemingly by any means. Are we defining the elites by ethnicity? If so, how many generations are we going back? And should we be measuring facial features and skin color in our determination? Or do we use economic determiners - money in the bank, size of home, car, brand of clothing? What about education - educated people are elite. And who are the judges of who is elite? And what do we do with those we brand "elite"? Beginning to sound a lot like the folks in Cambodia in '75?

[whybother]

I agree that the Red Shirt leadership were foolish in not accepting Abhisit's compromise without trying to attach ridiculous conditions, but fail to understand how their surrender yesterday meant they abandoned their followers. Were they supposed to encourage their followers to fight to the death?

This is a stupid and irresponsible editorial.

I think it is a well writen article by somebody who is well informed, unlike yourself............... Google the "jonestown massacre" and see how that guy Jones led masses of people in the wrong direction (almost a thousand followers commited suicide).............. Just as these lovely Isan folks, Ill-educated as most are, have been easily led astray. If you really think it is about Democracy -- you're naive......... If you notice that most of us back the Govt and a minority back the red-shirts----- If you know anything about Democracy, or life in general, you will know that the majority rules and wins............

majority rules and wins? majority does not mean they are correct! and Isan folks are not so ill-educated as you seem to think ... please to not speak for others ... and do not underestimate people ... btw, there was absolutely no reason for the military to use real ammunition! riot gear, tear gas would have been enough!!!

When the army is being attacked by guns and grenades, tear gas doesn't really help.

[jdinasia]

I agree that the Red Shirt leadership were foolish in not accepting Abhisit's compromise without trying to attach ridiculous conditions, but fail to understand how their surrender yesterday meant they abandoned their followers. Were they supposed to encourage their followers to fight to the death?

This is a stupid and irresponsible editorial.

Huh?

The red leaders just a couple of hours earlier were whipping their followers into a frenzy with "We will fight to the death!" ... then they ran away.

THAT is what was stupid and iiresponsible.

[otherstuff1957]

They got 36% of the vote + 40% for murdering PTT party members, suppression and junta control of the media and polling stations - 3% for vote buying + 3% for vote buying on the other side. Still 76% for the reds is a clear majority. Before you sprout go check your facts. Newin/Bhunjai withdrew WHY? open your eyes Thaksin and his cohorts are @#$# Abhisit and his cohorts are exactly the same. Difference Abhisit has started the killing and injuring of a lot of people. Now many gangs a lot of them red protesters are looting and burning. A smart pm could have avoided this.

You're confusing the constituency vote and the proportional vote. They got 36% of one and 40% of the other. In other words they won 76% out of 200%, or 38% of the total.

[AsiaCheese]

Over 20 misspelled words... ?? BRAIN DEAD is getting "catchy" here..

It may have gone right past your 2 brain cells that the quotee might just be a citizen of the country which is accomodating your spellchecking a@@...

What a dork, honestly...

[EarthAlien]

I agree that the Red Shirt leadership were foolish in not accepting Abhisit's compromise without trying to attach ridiculous conditions, but fail to understand how their surrender yesterday meant they abandoned their followers. Were they supposed to encourage their followers to fight to the death?

This is a stupid and irresponsible editorial.

The problem is, they DID encourage their followers to fight to the death for many weeks before their surrender.

That's why so many of the protestors were upset. They were expecting, and willing, to fight to the death.

Actually,. I think that the article was very well written and presented in a balanced manner. It contained a relevant and clear perspective and I thought that the Frankenstein analogy was highly relevant and aptly woven into the story.

This is a complex issue where there is more that a couple of dynamics at play.

Here's my own take on the red leader's surrender:

Firstly,.. they acted with sense and with integrity given the scenario that was about to unfold for all at the protest site encampment. Without doubt their actions in surrendering will have lessened the loss of life (not just their own). I see this as commendable and honorable.

My other point is that I think that it may have become apparent to the red leaders that factions and splits and dark forces beyond their control had started to come into play and that by not surrendering they would have been sacrificing their own lives and those of the loyal believers for a group of hostile and violent thugs that had hijacked their cause.

There's nothing honorable about knowingly sacrificing your own life and those of others that have pledged to you when you know that the cause is lost and that you no longer are the steering force that just 6 weeks earlier you were.

The real story about the April/May 2010 red siege of BKK will unfold gradually over the next 6 to 12 months I think.

To those leaders that surrendered I say "hats off to you",.. better late than never!

[cougar52]

Can someone lead me to the clip that shows Arisman asking everyone to bring a bottle to Bangkok, thanks in advance, I am trying to show it to my wife and I have seen it numerous times but my searches has not found it. It is the one that shows the translation English in the video.

[ferd54]

It's very interesting now that it is becoming harder and harder to justify the red actions (although a shocking number of their cheerleaders are excusing the arson), they are now turning back to bashing the "elites" and attaching an ethnic side to it. So a few questions to those who want to get rid of the elites, seemingly by any means. Are we defining the elites by ethnicity? If so, how many generations are we going back? And should we be measuring facial features and skin color in our determination? Or do we use economic determiners - money in the bank, size of home, car, brand of clothing? What about education - educated people are elite. And who are the judges of who is elite? And what do we do with those we brand "elite"? Beginning to sound a lot like the folks in Cambodia in '75?

I'm just laying out the facts. You can be as open-minded or naive as you want, but I assure you the Hi-So Thais don't give a flying &lt;deleted&gt; about equality for you or anyone else. I know the son isn't responsible for the father in any family, but a bit more on Chin Sophonpanich: He made a ton of money during WWII as the Japanese occupied Thailand, and afterward, when he was literally a partner in governments ruled by Army thugs; at one time he was actually the national Bank of Thailand.

Just some background on why it might be Bangkok Bank that had the fires.

[smedly]

does anyone here understand the words........law and order......and the right and duty the sitting authorities have to enforce it, if the government had acted sooner many people would still be alive right now.

[connda]

Some of the posters here need to calm down and really think through all that has occurred since the reds took over Bangkok in March. I concur that many TV members seem to have adopted pro-red agendas and it very may well be because they have been influenced by their Thai wives....many of whom sprang from Isaan roots and whose greater families also support the red cause. They do so because of how the reds built their base of support in Isaan and in the poorer districts of the north, creating a fabric of mistruths and slowly but inexorably beating them into an anti-government frenzy. My own spouse is not from Isaan and her northern family all consists of hard-working and moral people, but even she is beginning to see that the carefully orchestrated and putative peaceful political aims of the reds have been undermined by the other, decidedly sinister side of their strategy which believes in using broad but well-camouflaged provocative violence to create fear and sow worry amongst the Thai people...all with the grand goal of returning Thaksin and his thugs to power. In the latter regard, the reds are and will continue to do so; the extent of which nobody knows at this time. This impartial link below has been posted in another TV forum but is well worth listing again. It explains a lot and I encourage all TV readers to take a close look at it:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE13Ae01.html

Now is not the time to continue sniping at each other on this forum. It is a time to understand what has happened to Thailand and what led us to these sad days of infamy, and to hope and pray that the huge sectarian chasm that has been created does not drop all of us into the abyss.

Fore Man -- Good post. The article is excellent as well. It's just a good illustration of how power-junkies

can control the masses and sway public opinion. I must be getting old. I've seen this play out before in different places at different times in my life. I was in the middle of Manila Philippines in 1986 and watched that melodrama play out. Everyone had an opinion but very few people could stand back and see the big picture -- or cared to. Too many years as a systems engineer I guess -- always looking at the totality and always anticipating the unexpected. I think it's a curse LOL But, it's time to let go...

This is my last post regarding this particular melodrama here in Thailand. Life is too valuable to waste on events you cannot control. I know good, moral people -- both Thai and Farang -- in Issan and Northern Thailand. I retired to Thailand to live a good, simple, moral life - and to enjoy my life with other like-minded folks, including my wonderful Thai wife. Time to turn the computer off and enjoy a stroll through the market today. With all it's imperfections, I love this place.

[yesdavy]

I agree that the Red Shirt leadership were foolish in not accepting Abhisit's compromise without trying to attach ridiculous conditions, but fail to understand how their surrender yesterday meant they abandoned their followers. Were they supposed to encourage their followers to fight to the death?

This is a stupid and irresponsible editorial.

I think it is a well written article by somebody who is well informed, unlike yourself............... Google the "jonestown massacre" and see how that guy Jones led masses of people in the wrong direction (almost a thousand followers commited suicide).............. Just as these lovely Isan folks, Ill-educated as most are, have been easily led astray. If you really think it is about Democracy -- you're naive......... If you notice that most of us back the Govt and a minority back the red-shirts----- If you know anything about Democracy, or life in general, you will know that the majority rules and wins............

In that case by your reckoning the Red Shirts have the next election in the bag.

"majority" = Reds = "Wins".

Like it or not they are the majority and just because you don't see everyone who supports them walking round with red bandanners doesn't mean they're not there.

Wrong..... Red Shirts = lost the last election = sore losers.

In 2007, free and open election....red shirts (Puea Thai) only got 36% vote. But they still formed a coaltion govt with other parties. After their first two choices for PM were removed on technicalities...they still controlled the govt thru their coaltion. BUT....Newin/Bhumjai withdrew from the coaltion..legally, per democratic process...and formed a new coalition with Democrats and other parties....who had the MAJORITY of duly elected MPs. The government of Abhisit is the duly elected government. Any attempt to deny this is anti democratic. Period.

Red Shirts - Puea Thai... will not get more than 20% of the vote next time. The country is sick of their violence and anti democratic bully tactics...incited by the most corrupt PM in Thai history....megalomanica Thaksin...the butcher of Tak Bai.

Perhaps, the reason for confusion is that a coup is 180* opposite of democracy since a coup is the unconstitutional overthrow of a government by a small contingent of special interests, i.e., military and civilian stakeholders--regardless of caretaker status since democratic options are available, such as snap elections. Given a majority, votes can change the direction of a government democratically. Without a majority, illegal, unconstitutional overthrow is the option. A coup state lacks majority support and is not recognized as legitimate by anyone anywhere because it allows the coup to stack the courts, election committees, law enforcement, and military. This may be why it is confusing to talk about MPs being duly elected, and non-coup PMs being removed on technicalities.

[whybother]

What like appearing on a cookery show is unconstitutional? Maybe a polititian giving flowers to burns victims in hospitals should be made unconstitutional too as that sort of good will gesture gets broadcast and is also PR.

We'll see! That was a farce not an election and most western media confront it's legitemacy. Don't know if you saw Abhisit on Hardtalk?

He didn't just *appear* on a cooking show. He was paid to host it.

The constitution says that a PM can not have more than one job. Being PM should be enough.

In addition to that, he lied in court.

But, regardless of all that, he could have been PM the very next day after being dumped. But the PPP decided to put Thaksin's brother-in-law into the position instead.

[whybother]

Perhaps, the reason for confusion is that a coup is 180* opposite of democracy since a coup is the unconstitutional overthrow of a government by a small contingent of special interests, i.e., military and civilian stakeholders--regardless of caretaker status since democratic options are available, such as snap elections. Given a majority, votes can change the direction of a government democratically. Without a majority, illegal, unconstitutional overthrow is the option. A coup state lacks majority support and is not recognized as legitimate by anyone anywhere because it allows the coup to stack the courts, election committees, law enforcement, and military. This may be why it is confusing to talk about MPs being duly elected, and non-coup PMs being removed on technicalities.

"Snap elections"?

The constitution states that an election should have been held within 6 months of the failed 2006 election.

It was Thaksin's job, as care-taker PM, to organise those elections. He failed to do that within the time frame. But he kept on being care-taker PM. There was no way to get rid of him. That is the main reason the army stepped in.

[Anyse]

I agree that the Red Shirt leadership were foolish in not accepting Abhisit's compromise without trying to attach ridiculous conditions, but fail to understand how their surrender yesterday meant they abandoned their followers. Were they supposed to encourage their followers to fight to the death?

This is a stupid and irresponsible editorial.

I think it is a well writen article by somebody who is well informed, unlike yourself............... Google the "jonestown massacre" and see how that guy Jones led masses of people in the wrong direction (almost a thousand followers commited suicide).............. Just as these lovely Isan folks, Ill-educated as most are, have been easily led astray. If you really think it is about Democracy -- you're naive......... If you notice that most of us back the Govt and a minority back the red-shirts----- If you know anything about Democracy, or life in general, you will know that the majority rules and wins............ It is easy to be swayed into their way of thinking when you have an ill-educated, red-shirt following thai wife.

If the poor are uneducated, why is that? Perhaps the elites who control the country should help to educate them.

Did You google the 'jonestown massacre' as I suggested???? If you did you would see a comparable situation (of gullible people led astray).............. But you mention a GOOD POINT that I have also thought about -- that is that the Govt (any Govt) that instituded a Mandatory Free Education, at least 9 - preferably 12 years, for every child, would help to bring these poor folks up a lot......... But, I know many Northeastern Thais whose parents were so stupid they wouldn't let the kids attend class (even lower grades) --- in their way of thinking the kids could just learn to farm rice (good enough for me -- good enough for my kids).............

You just floor me. Some people ARE ignorant. Some will not let their children go to school Do you really believe that these are the ones who were in Bangkok? I would think not! Please, don't "spread" the blame to those who have nothing to do with this!

[StreetCowboy]

What was burned undoubtedly proves the notion that this was pre-planned. Of all the banks that were burned, the overwhelming majority were Bangkok Banks. <snip>

A couple of brief histories:

Chin Sophonpanich was the founder of Bangkok Bank.

Born to a Chinese immigrant father and a Thai mother in Thonburi (Chinatown), Chin's daughter-in-law, the Khunying Kalaya Sophonpanich, wife of Chote Sophonpanich, is currently serving as the Thai Democrat Party's Minister of Science and Technology.

Tiang Chirathivat was the founder of Central Group.

In 1927 22-year-old Tiang traversed the sea from Hainan in Mainland China to settle down in Siam. He married Khun Whan and had the first child. The family business began as a tiny retail outlet in Thonburi (Chinatown). The store moved to Charoen Krung Road, at the corner of Captain Bush Lane in Bangkok's Si Phraya district. The single unit shophouse sold a large variety of local and international newspapers and magazines and carried the name "Central Trading Store, the first chapter of Central Department Stores history.

Immigrant bashing - congrats you are now a US Republican!

It's very interesting now that it is becoming harder and harder to justify the red actions (although a shocking number of their cheerleaders are excusing the arson), they are now turning back to bashing the "elites" and attaching an ethnic side to it. So a few questions to those who want to get rid of the elites, seemingly by any means. Are we defining the elites by ethnicity? If so, how many generations are we going back? And should we be measuring facial features and skin color in our determination? Or do we use economic determiners - money in the bank, size of home, car, brand of clothing? What about education - educated people are elite. And who are the judges of who is elite? And what do we do with those we brand "elite"? Beginning to sound a lot like the folks in Cambodia in '75?

I think that the original post was intended to show that the arson and vandalism was targetted, and therefore, in the poster's view, co-ordinated or planned. I do not feel that is necessarily the case - ignorant and unguided people may also know the ownership of various businesses.

I think the quotes from wikipedia or wherever could have been more precise, to highlight that the affected businesses were owned by people with links to the government, whereas the less specific quotes could be used to fan racism, which in turn could adversely affect many innocent people. Perhaps I am being too generous, and in fact the biographies were specifically prepared to fan up racial hatred, but I doubt it.

In these troubled times, it would behove us all to think calmly and quietly, and try to treat our fellows with dignity and respect regardless of what we perceive as their flaws or folly. Where is Ian Forbes when we are so desperate (disparate?) for a little common sense and dignity?

SC

[way2muchcoffee]

majority rules and wins? majority does not mean they are correct! and Isan folks are not so ill-educated as you seem to think ... please to not speak for others ... and do not underestimate people ... btw, there was absolutely no reason for the military to use real ammunition! riot gear, tear gas would have been enough!!!

Tear gas and rubber bullets against pistols, M16s, AK47s, and grenades? You must be joking.

[Randee]

I agree that the Red Shirt leadership were foolish in not accepting Abhisit's compromise without trying to attach ridiculous conditions, but fail to understand how their surrender yesterday meant they abandoned their followers. Were they supposed to encourage their followers to fight to the death?

This is a stupid and irresponsible editorial.

You clearly miss the point - it's gone wayyy over the top of your head.... The point is THE RED LEADERS SHOULD'VE ACCEPTED ABHISITs COMPROMISE! not take the followers beyond that point and THEN ABANDONED THEM - get it???

The peasants were led down a path by mind controlling leaders. The editorial doesn't say anything about fighting to the death. It refers to the offered compromise.

duh!!!

[Netfan]

It's very interesting now that it is becoming harder and harder to justify the red actions (although a shocking number of their cheerleaders are excusing the arson), they are now turning back to bashing the "elites" and attaching an ethnic side to it. So a few questions to those who want to get rid of the elites, seemingly by any means. Are we defining the elites by ethnicity? If so, how many generations are we going back? And should we be measuring facial features and skin color in our determination? Or do we use economic determiners - money in the bank, size of home, car, brand of clothing? What about education - educated people are elite. And who are the judges of who is elite? And what do we do with those we brand "elite"? Beginning to sound a lot like the folks in Cambodia in '75?

I'm just laying out the facts. You can be as open-minded or naive as you want, but I assure you the Hi-So Thais don't give a flying &lt;deleted&gt; about equality for you or anyone else. I know the son isn't responsible for the father in any family, but a bit more on Chin Sophonpanich: He made a ton of money during WWII as the Japanese occupied Thailand, and afterward, when he was literally a partner in governments ruled by Army thugs; at one time he was actually the national Bank of Thailand.

Just some background on why it might be Bangkok Bank that had the fires.

So its okay to burn down entire shopping malls because someone doesn't give a &lt;deleted&gt; about me or treat me equally? I'll need a lot of gasoline. Or because they made money in a shady / immoral way? The head of the Kennedy clan made his money in bootlegging whiskey, and as ambassador to UK was in favor of giving Hitler leeway. Should we go burn down the Kennedy compound tonight? Being angry at someone doesn't give me the right to go punch them in the face or burn down their business.

[Randee]

I agree that the Red Shirt leadership were foolish in not accepting Abhisit's compromise without trying to attach ridiculous conditions, but fail to understand how their surrender yesterday meant they abandoned their followers. Were they supposed to encourage their followers to fight to the death?

This is a stupid and irresponsible editorial.

I think it is a well writen article by somebody who is well informed, unlike yourself............... Google the "jonestown massacre" and see how that guy Jones led masses of people in the wrong direction (almost a thousand followers commited suicide).............. Just as these lovely Isan folks, Ill-educated as most are, have been easily led astray. If you really think it is about Democracy -- you're naive......... If you notice that most of us back the Govt and a minority back the red-shirts----- If you know anything about Democracy, or life in general, you will know that the majority rules and wins............

well said.

i also responded to his ignorant comment

[yesdavy]

There was a report that the army captured a number of the black clad gunmen. So, who were they? One would expect that if they were red, we would have seen them like we saw the actor Methee, or even common street thieves, immediately paraded on newscasts and front pages. So, who are they? If they are not reds, then one might expect that they will disappear to wherever. It is hard to imagine them being an independent group. How many sides are there? If they were reds, they were not very effective judging by the body count of reds dead versus soldiers.

[gregb]

OOOH... that word again... BKK elite. Do you even know what that means?

Bangkok is the capitol of Thailand. If they're not allowed to be "elite" (whatever the hel_l that means), WHAT.THE.F_UCK do you suggest them to be?

Instead of throwing xenophobic labels around, why don't you address the real policy issues that disturb you?

I worked for Sutachai Yoon and have been involved with other "upper class" "well educated" Sino-Thai Bangkokians. I will leave aside detailed comment on the work conditions at the Nation, because I am no doubt biased after the shocking treatment I experienced there in 1991. Suffice it to say that foreigners are only tolerated because they are a necessary evil in an English-language newspaper.

I will, however, pass along my general observations on the wealthy in BKK: Their sense of superiority and entitlement is nauseating. They play only by their own rules and are literally above the law when it comes to day-to-day life. And to a person the ones I worked closely with were of Chinese decent, and dam_n*d proud of it.

They have dominated others while operating in a system that is corrupt from top to bottom. Can you do the math?

What many people do not seem to understand is that nobody is arguing that the elite Thais are not disgusting corrupt people. The people who are not completely biased are arguing two things:

1) This is a conflict between 2 different groups of equally elite, disgusting people

2) The UDD/red movement will do nothing to change the status quo. It will simply transfer power from one disgusting group to another disgusting group causing tremendous damage to Thailand in the process.

I laugh at people who keep trying to say this is a grass roots movement. If there is any component of that, it is only so because the poor have been brainwashed to believe it is so. Given time, the truth will start to reestablish itself. Brainwashing a society requires an incredible amount of resources. As the noose keeps tightening around Thaksin, he and his entourage supplying those resourced will eventually be choked off.

Moderate anti Thaksin leaders will keep chipping away at Thaksin's base. He won't be here to fight back, and there is only so much you can do remotely. This movement will eventually wither and die no matter how much the red supporters here hate to admit that.

There is no honest popular support for the reds, because it does not honestly reflect reality. It is solely based on misinformation, and that can only last for a short period. Eventually, the truth comes out.

Strongly and vocally denounce Thaksin, give people a real movement to follow with a real platform, and maybe you have a chance to keep the movement alive in a more honest context that truly could generate grass roots support.

The problem with the red activists is they are lazy. They think they can piggy back on Thaksin's fortunes to get what they want. They fail to realise how ridiculous this theory is. Do the real legwork, which will take decades, and then you might be able to accomplish something. If you truly care about the things the reds say they stand for on the surface, stop trying to take the cowards way out. The reds are about Thaksin. He doesn't care about you, and you can't take advantage of him. He is way too smart.

Establish your own, legitimate movement and go forward with that. Stop supporting the reds if you truly love the Thai people.

[Randee]

I agree, this editorial is very biased.

Which parts are biased?

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but it would be good if some people gave their reasoning for their opinions rather than one line statements.

hear hear - give us your reasoning? i do disagree with him

[DrThomas]

Wondered where the Reds got the idea of burning everything down?

bit.ly/9mWrEP

This has clip clearly been overdubbed. His lips come nowhere near to following the words he is supposedly saying.

We need less of this sort of mis-information at this time.

Does anyone have the original footage?