Successful Confusion

[bhoydy]

Here's a couple of things about the word สำเร็จ - success.

The second syllable of this word เร็จ begins with ร which is an unpaired low class consonant. The จ makes it a dead syllable and the symbol above ร makes it a short consonant which by my reckoning makes it a high tone. Looking on thai-language and thai-flashcards websites they both give it as a low tone. Can someone explain this to me as low class consonants don't usually get the low tone? Also what's the name of the symbol above ร, can't find it anywhere.

Thanks

[Peppy]

First of all, the word สำเร็จ is (usually) a verb, so it might be best translated as "succeed". "Success" would be ความสำเร็จ.

The reason that the second syllable is a low tone is a case of 'consonant-class shifting'--in most two syllable words where the first syllable begins with a high-class consonant, the second syllable's leading consonant becomes high-class as well (regardless of what class it originally belonged to). Most dictionaries show this by putting ห with a dot under it (in this case, to show that it's part of a consonant cluster; the dot is called "พินทุ") in front of the second syllable's initial consonant, so "สำเร็จ" is read as "สำเหฺร็จ". Another common example of this is the word ถนน, where the second syllable takes a rising tone, to be pronounced as "ถะหฺนน"

The squiggle above ร, which is used to shorten the vowels เอ and แอ, is called ไม้ไต่คู้. However, most people just call it ไม้เลขแปด or simply เลขแปด, since it looks just like the Thai number 8.

[mikenyork]

Excellent explanation (my college-educated lady c/n do as well). But, do you know other examples of the initial consonant controlling the class of the following consonant where the vowel between the two consonants isn't understood? I can't think of any off hand.

[DavidHouston]

From "หลักภาษาไทย" by กำชัย ทองหล่อ; 1952,1966, 2002; 345 baht; page 504:

กำราบ to suppress; subdue; intimidate; tame; vanquish; quell; subjugate

ตำรับ text; textbook; subject matter

ดำรัส (royal) to say, speak

ดำริ (royal) to think

สำรวจ to survey, explore

to name a few. His total list contains fourteen items.

[bhoydy]

Thanks, it looks like there aren't too many thankfully. There's always an exception to the rule to make things harder eh? Is that list of 14 all of them then?

[DavidHouston]

Thanks, it looks like there aren't too many thankfully. There's always an exception to the rule to make things harder eh? Is that list of 14 all of them then?

The rest of the words in the list are not very common so I did not include them. This chapter in หลักภาษาไทย contains many list of irregular spelling/pronunciation combinations. And, the book has not been updated for years so new words might have entered the language which are not contained in Kumchai's listings.

I highly recommend this book, which can be found in many Thai bookstores, for students at the intermediary level or above who are interested in the structure and grammar of Thai.

[Baa_Mango]

ตำรวจ also comes to mind.. and i was told in this case its because of.. its khmer roots ? but would this be the same rules as สำเร็จ ? I understand both but with those two words which seem more like 2 words rather then a double syllable word ie : ขนม ตลาด ถนน.. ok i think its easier to see the consonant shifting properties in those style of words but even though i do know the correct tones for police officer and 'succeed' i got to think that if i did not already know the word (and tone) before hand and i just came across the word i would definitely not shift the consonant class in those words ie.. สำเร็จ ( i would think rising and then high ) I guess it doesnt happen in a ton of cases and as with the list that was posted i think its obviously makes more sense and all that when you are familiar with the words right? anyways cool and thanks for the info

[HappyInCM]

The reason that the second syllable is a low tone is a case of 'consonant-class shifting'--in most two syllable words where the first syllable begins with a high-class consonant, the second syllable's leading consonant becomes high-class as well (regardless of what class it originally belonged to).

I thought this was only in cases of an implicit -ะ or อำ where there is a class shift? Or do you mean that covers most 2 syllable words? And I guess, it can also happen the other way around although I guess I never pay attention to that

[Peppy]

The reason that the second syllable is a low tone is a case of 'consonant-class shifting'--in most two syllable words where the first syllable begins with a high-class consonant, the second syllable's leading consonant becomes high-class as well (regardless of what class it originally belonged to).

I thought this was only in cases of an implicit -ะ or อำ where there is a class shift? Or do you mean that covers most 2 syllable words? And I guess, it can also happen the other way around although I guess I never pay attention to that

I think you're more correct by saying "only in cases of an implicit -ะ or อำ". I was perhaps being far too general by saying "most two syllable words", since I can't actually think of any two syllable words where the first syllable ends with a consonant (besides the so-called 'vowel' อำ) in which the second syllable's initial consonant's class changes. Of course, it could be argued that such words are not technically "two-syllable words", but rather compounds formed from two words which have individual meanings on their own.