Thai Medics And Rescue Teams Bemoan Soldiers' Lack Of Trust

[termad]

In the many hours that I spent around the fighting and protests I never witnessed any tension or hostilities between the protesters and the ambulance personnel -- they were shoulder to shoulder like brothers in arms. I have video footage on the night of May 14th at Soi Rangnam where Vajira Hospital medical personnel attempted to rescue a dead person and being shot at multiple times, taking great risk, but made it out. On the very next day a person from the same Hospital crew was shot in the head and killed by the army, I believe in the same location. It seems to be an indication of media manipulation to say that Reds and Army "alike" were anti-medical personnel. Apparently this is a lie to cover up the truth.

Somtumtiger and hammerred, your comments show your lack of honesty as well as where your loyalty lies, duly noted.

"...............a person from the same Hospital crew was shot in the head and killed by the army............"

As you're not sure of the location, is it not reasonable to assume that you did not witness this event? Yet you blame the army, with no grounds for this belief given, or even a suggestion that it may not have been the army or that the incident was accidental.

Your red slip is showing, again.

Tell that to the journalists who saw the nurse shot in the back by the army at the Temple.

[Portlandstone]

Jdinasia, I am definately not a propagandist and I have no allegiance to any side.  I was just a single guy, passing through on his own that night, hung around for a while and left.

[animatic]

In the many hours that I spent around the fighting and protests I never witnessed any tension or hostilities between the protesters and the ambulance personnel -- they were shoulder to shoulder like brothers in arms. I have video footage on the night of May 14th at Soi Rangnam where Vajira Hospital medical personnel attempted to rescue a dead person and being shot at multiple times, taking great risk, but made it out. On the very next day a person from the same Hospital crew was shot in the head and killed by the army, I believe in the same location. It seems to be an indication of media manipulation to say that Reds and Army "alike" were anti-medical personnel. Apparently this is a lie to cover up the truth.

Somtumtiger and hammerred, your comments show your lack of honesty as well as where your loyalty lies, duly noted.

"...............a person from the same Hospital crew was shot in the head and killed by the army............"

As you're not sure of the location, is it not reasonable to assume that you did not witness this event? Yet you blame the army, with no grounds for this belief given, or even a suggestion that it may not have been the army or that the incident was accidental.

Your red slip is showing, again.

Tell that to the journalists who saw the nurse shot in the back by the army at the Temple.

Did they specificaly SEE a soldier draw down on her and fire?

Or was she just seen to be shot,

with no clear sense of direction and shooter.

But it seems to be assumed that the army did it, and it was intentional.

If the army was really out for blood that day, hundreds would have died.

[chantorn]

In the many hours that I spent around the fighting and protests I never witnessed any tension or hostilities between the protesters and the ambulance personnel -- they were shoulder to shoulder like brothers in arms. I have video footage on the night of May 14th at Soi Rangnam where Vajira Hospital medical personnel attempted to rescue a dead person and being shot at multiple times, taking great risk, but made it out. On the very next day a person from the same Hospital crew was shot in the head and killed by the army, I believe in the same location. It seems to be an indication of media manipulation to say that Reds and Army "alike" were anti-medical personnel. Apparently this is a lie to cover up the truth.

Somtumtiger and hammerred, your comments show your lack of honesty as well as where your loyalty lies, duly noted.

Did you see the soldier who sighted his rifle and shot the person in the head? How far away was he? I do not ask as a propagandist demanding absolute proof, you are certainly entitled to you opinion that soldiers may have shot someone. I only ask because it is such a critical question. I would really like to know. I find it hard to believe the Army would be behind such systematic killing of so many rescue workers. If there is more than circumstantial evidence I think it should be clearly stated. If it seemed to be the soldiers, without proof, that too should be stated.

Same same. Don't be so 1 sided.

Did you see a red-shirt who sighted his rifle and shot the person in the head? How far away was he? I do not ask as a propagandist demanding absolute proof, you are certainly entitled to you opinion that red-shirt may have shot someone. I only ask because it is such a critical question. I would really like to know. I find it hard to believe the red-shirt would be behind such systematic killing of so many rescue workers. If there is more than circumstantial evidence I think it should be clearly stated. If it seemed to be the red-shirts, without proof, that too should be stated.

Unfortunately, I don't find it at all hard to believe that redshirts were behind the killing of resuce workers. They violated a hospital in the past, they disregarded the idea that the temple was a place of sanctuary and non violence when they attacked the reporter for the French TV station and they put a pre planned plot to burn buildings into action and attacked the media. These things lead me to believe that planned violence and a disregard of accepted conventions on what are not acceptable targets are part of their tactics.

The hospital always say they are neutral, and no soldiers are allow in the hospital ever. Not even during WW2.

Min 0:55 in this clip

"We also seen MULTIPLE snipers on top of Chula Hospital, and also on top of one of the bank over there. They are not even hiding, just training their guns"

[chantorn]

In the many hours that I spent around the fighting and protests I never witnessed any tension or hostilities between the protesters and the ambulance personnel -- they were shoulder to shoulder like brothers in arms. I have video footage on the night of May 14th at Soi Rangnam where Vajira Hospital medical personnel attempted to rescue a dead person and being shot at multiple times, taking great risk, but made it out. On the very next day a person from the same Hospital crew was shot in the head and killed by the army, I believe in the same location. It seems to be an indication of media manipulation to say that Reds and Army "alike" were anti-medical personnel. Apparently this is a lie to cover up the truth.

Somtumtiger and hammerred, your comments show your lack of honesty as well as where your loyalty lies, duly noted.

"...............a person from the same Hospital crew was shot in the head and killed by the army............"

As you're not sure of the location, is it not reasonable to assume that you did not witness this event? Yet you blame the army, with no grounds for this belief given, or even a suggestion that it may not have been the army or that the incident was accidental.

Your red slip is showing, again.

Tell that to the journalists who saw the nurse shot in the back by the army at the Temple.

Did they specificaly SEE a soldier draw down on her and fire?

Or was she just seen to be shot,

with no clear sense of direction and shooter.

But it seems to be assumed that the army did it, and it was intentional.

If the army was really out for blood that day, hundreds would have died.

You may need your girlfriend to translate for you

To be honest, I don't believe these 2 videos. I think the Red shoot themselves (in the foot) and try to blame Mark.

[KireB]

In the time that I posted the above reply, I see there are already a few more that clearly mistate the facts.  NickUpton and BigC, your facts are quite erroneous as I saw them.  On the night of the 14th, Rangnam Rd., there were practically hundreds of people lined all along the sidewalks of the road with a few running across sometimes.  Although a few guys up front had what might have been sling shots, all the rest had empty hands and clearly had no guns, neither visible and from what I was able to see and judge, none hidden.  It wasn't the protesters that were a danger to the ambulance personnel as they both were all standing around shoulder to shoulder, chitchatting.  It was the mysterious force down at the end of the road, the sounds of numerous rifles, all similar sounding -- clearly the army.  It was the protesters who helped and provided backing to the ambulance crews whenever they showed up and wanted to rush in to pick up their dead fellows, I don't know why you state that the med people and red shirt were disagreeing with one another -- clearly not.  When the crews came back later on, they again hung out with the protesters, like buddies.  I don't know why people are saying otherwise. 

To the guy who stated the Reds were the ones who killed Reds at the temple, I am under the impression that it was unidentified gunmen likely up on the rail tracks, and this would have been on the 19th, when the army clearly already occupied the area.  It will be interesting however if we can find out who it really was.

Your story seems very unreliable, I'm sorry to say. It sounds as if you were in the line of fire, as you state that you clearly saw that the mysterious shooters were army personnel. Humm, sorry to tell you, but you keep telling other posters about their erroneous facts while you expect readers to believe what you witnessed as a truth. That means that you are either part of the PR campaign on clearly blaming the army for the instgnation of violence or are extrordinairy brave for hanging around while army is shooting people!.

[monkfish]

Full transcript of Paramedic video interview..

first video posted above by chantorn

Edit: ........................ decided not to post if you want it use google and yee shall find or pm me

Edited May 27, 2010 by monkfish

[Portlandstone]

Thanks for expressing your thoughts KireB, which actually I want to make it clear and I should have said it in the very first post but people are still not sure about, I was not anywhere near Rangnam on the 15th, and the 14th was my last night to see what was going on up there, so I do not have any supporting evidence that the Army was the one who shot the medical worker on the 15th, as I wasn't there.  I can only insinuate that the situation which occured on the 14th continued in quite the same manner on the 15th, leading to the death of the worker of the same crews that were there the night before, but I wasn't there and I fully admit I have no evidence of the med worker's death on the 15th.  And KireB, it is a well known fact that by the evening of the 14th the Army had already occupied much of Ratchaprarop and it was therefore easy to tell that it was the army down at the corner in the dark, behind the tree and such.  I am not sure but from what I've read, they mostly came in on the new railway line (the airport train that is not in service), plus I remember seeing them hanging out up on the railway platforms on Ratchaprorop a few nights eariler, so they were clearly in that area the night before.  

Also in order to make it clear that I am not a part of a PR campaign, I did not witness who killed the dead man down near the front on the night of the 14th, and I didn't specifically state who did.  I only describe who was clearly firing guns, the sounds and unison of their guns, the extreme obviousness of who they were, and the almost completely unarmed protesters that really were just hanging back behind obstacles watching (admittedly while a half dozen or so were up front at any one time trying to rile up their enemy).  I do state however that I have no evidence -- and did not witness -- the killing or shooting of the man that was picked up by med personnel on the 14th.

I don't know why you say I was extrordinarily brave when there were a few hundred others, as well as a visible amount of foreigners, both of whom lingered up closer than I did.  But you are right, I was very scared the whole time.

[jdinasia]

Jdinasia, I am definately not a propagandist and I have no allegiance to any side. I was just a single guy, passing through on his own that night, hung around for a while and left.

But you are passing on hearsay and claiming you have video evidence that supports your view ... yet ....

You ignore the reports from international journalists of firefights (that means in 2 directions)

Again --- I have read your posts and I clearly see bias.

Edited May 27, 2010 by jdinasia

[Kunpan]

In the many hours that I spent around the fighting and protests I never witnessed any tension or hostilities between the protesters and the ambulance personnel -- they were shoulder to shoulder like brothers in arms. I have video footage on the night of May 14th at Soi Rangnam where Vajira Hospital medical personnel attempted to rescue a dead person and being shot at multiple times, taking great risk, but made it out. On the very next day a person from the same Hospital crew was shot in the head and killed by the army, I believe in the same location. It seems to be an indication of media manipulation to say that Reds and Army "alike" were anti-medical personnel. Apparently this is a lie to cover up the truth.

Somtumtiger and hammerred, your comments show your lack of honesty as well as where your loyalty lies, duly noted.

Did you see the soldier who sighted his rifle and shot the person in the head? How far away was he? I do not ask as a propagandist demanding absolute proof, you are certainly entitled to you opinion that soldiers may have shot someone. I only ask because it is such a critical question. I would really like to know. I find it hard to believe the Army would be behind such systematic killing of so many rescue workers. If there is more than circumstantial evidence I think it should be clearly stated. If it seemed to be the soldiers, without proof, that too should be stated.

Same same. Don't be so 1 sided.

Did you see a red-shirt who sighted his rifle and shot the person in the head? How far away was he? I do not ask as a propagandist demanding absolute proof, you are certainly entitled to you opinion that red-shirt may have shot someone. I only ask because it is such a critical question. I would really like to know. I find it hard to believe the red-shirt would be behind such systematic killing of so many rescue workers. If there is more than circumstantial evidence I think it should be clearly stated. If it seemed to be the red-shirts, without proof, that too should be stated.

well said, we can go in circles all day about this, its was just sad to see Thai's killing Thai Govt or Red Shirts

[Samuian]

It's NOT the Army, nor the police to blame - but ENTIRELY those who are bend and morally crippled enough to use insignia of the Red Cross or any other paramedic support in such conflicts, for cover of their operations, supply lines etc.!

THAT is what is wrong and NOT the other way around - where are we - in Sicko Land - I make my own rules?

[souvenirdeparis]

In the many hours that I spent around the fighting and protests I never witnessed any tension or hostilities between the protesters and the ambulance personnel -- they were shoulder to shoulder like brothers in arms. I have video footage on the night of May 14th at Soi Rangnam where Vajira Hospital medical personnel attempted to rescue a dead person and being shot at multiple times, taking great risk, but made it out. On the very next day a person from the same Hospital crew was shot in the head and killed by the army, I believe in the same location. It seems to be an indication of media manipulation to say that Reds and Army "alike" were anti-medical personnel. Apparently this is a lie to cover up the truth.

Somtumtiger and hammerred, your comments show your lack of honesty as well as where your loyalty lies, duly noted.

"...............a person from the same Hospital crew was shot in the head and killed by the army............"

As you're not sure of the location, is it not reasonable to assume that you did not witness this event? Yet you blame the army, with no grounds for this belief given, or even a suggestion that it may not have been the army or that the incident was accidental.

Your red slip is showing, again.

""medical personnel attempted to rescue a dead person""

hope it was not you ?

[Crushdepth]

It didn't help that rescue vehicles (or pickups marked as rescue vehicles) were used to bring supplies in to the reds during the time that the military was attempting to hold a tight perimeter Reds flying false flags as rescue workers did this and caused some (not all -- and who knows how much?) of the distrust

And let's not forget the way reds treated the staff and patients at Chula hospital during their raid. Or the bodies they stole. Or that two hospitals were on the 'burn it' list read out by a red leader on stage and on camera.

[Samuian]

In the many hours that I spent around the fighting and protests I never witnessed any tension or hostilities between the protesters and the ambulance personnel -- they were shoulder to shoulder like brothers in arms. I have video footage on the night of May 14th at Soi Rangnam where Vajira Hospital medical personnel attempted to rescue a dead person and being shot at multiple times, taking great risk, but made it out. On the very next day a person from the same Hospital crew was shot in the head and killed by the army, I believe in the same location. It seems to be an indication of media manipulation to say that Reds and Army "alike" were anti-medical personnel. Apparently this is a lie to cover up the truth.

Somtumtiger and hammerred, your comments show your lack of honesty as well as where your loyalty lies, duly noted.

"...............a person from the same Hospital crew was shot in the head and killed by the army............"

As you're not sure of the location, is it not reasonable to assume that you did not witness this event? Yet you blame the army, with no grounds for this belief given, or even a suggestion that it may not have been the army or that the incident was accidental.

Your red slip is showing, again.

""medical personnel attempted to rescue a dead person""

hope it was not you ?

- resuscitate, because he drowned in the traffic gnarl up - really, believe me!

it's like the "eye witness story" - the day SD was shot...of the one who claimed has seen the sniper on top of the Dusit....

he saw it all, "a long stick" (the rifle) how he was guarded away and of course that he was dressed in Uniform and Balacclava, whisked away by a police escort!

distance of 800-1200 mtr.!

Accidentally that day he was carrying his 360° "see all" goggles with him!

That distance and sound waves travel at a slower pace as a bullet,

so there will be a significant gap between SD being hit and the sound of the shot

(if there was any!) ... the shock and panic...

and this one just happen to look in the right direction - well as I said...

it's all about the right "vision" or the "see all" goggles..

Edited May 27, 2010 by Samuian

[thailandbluegrass]

She said her team could not tend to gunshot victims inside Pathum Wanaram Temple because they were stopped at the gate and questioned about their political stance.

This is one of the things I find so distasteful about the redshirts, this constant quizzing of people's affiliation. So what if the ambulance crews stated that they didn't agree with the redshirts? Would they not be allowed to treat the wounded? It seems that this has at least delayed treatment to people inside the temple and may have resulted in a loss of life that could have been saved.

I really worry where this stopping of people and asking their political views will lead to.

She never said thay were stopped by red shirts. Man can you ever dream up what you want to believe. They were stopped and questioned by the Army. Thats what this arcticle is all about.

Why would the reds stop the medics and question there affiliation when it was reds that they were going in to help?

[jdinasia]

She said her team could not tend to gunshot victims inside Pathum Wanaram Temple because they were stopped at the gate and questioned about their political stance.

This is one of the things I find so distasteful about the redshirts, this constant quizzing of people's affiliation. So what if the ambulance crews stated that they didn't agree with the redshirts? Would they not be allowed to treat the wounded? It seems that this has at least delayed treatment to people inside the temple and may have resulted in a loss of life that could have been saved.

I really worry where this stopping of people and asking their political views will lead to.

She never said thay were stopped by red shirts. Man can you ever dream up what you want to believe. They were stopped and questioned by the Army. Thats what this arcticle is all about.

Why would the reds stop the medics and question there affiliation when it was reds that they were going in to help?

Why? The red leaders had been whipping the reds into a paranoid state for weeks! The reds themseves used trucks labeled as "rescue" to get supplies in. Why wouldn't they think that the governent might try to infiltrate them using the same techniques that they themselves used?

Remember .... from the P.O.V. of the Red leadership: The higher the body count; the more likely the reds would be able to topple the government. Video from April 10th suggests that the shots that killed some of the reds that night were fired from within the red area. Why? Again the reds thought they could win if they could whip up support based upon brutality of the government. The sad thing is that so many deaths will go into the "inconclusive" file.

The government had nothing to gain and everything to lose by targetting reporters and rescue workers. The Reds had everything to gain and nothing to lose. The reds announced that reporters were targets (for them) after the red leadership turned themselves in or ran away on May 19th. The reds clearly showed a plan for burning BKK well in advance of their actions there.

[Roadman]

Thanks for expressing your thoughts KireB, which actually I want to make it clear and I should have said it in the very first post but people are still not sure about, I was not anywhere near Rangnam on the 15th, and the 14th was my last night to see what was going on up there, so I do not have any supporting evidence that the Army was the one who shot the medical worker on the 15th, as I wasn't there.  I can only insinuate that the situation which occured on the 14th continued in quite the same manner on the 15th, leading to the death of the worker of the same crews that were there the night before, but I wasn't there and I fully admit I have no evidence of the med worker's death on the 15th.  And KireB, it is a well known fact that by the evening of the 14th the Army had already occupied much of Ratchaprarop and it was therefore easy to tell that it was the army down at the corner in the dark, behind the tree and such.  I am not sure but from what I've read, they mostly came in on the new railway line (the airport train that is not in service), plus I remember seeing them hanging out up on the railway platforms on Ratchaprorop a few nights eariler, so they were clearly in that area the night before.  

Also in order to make it clear that I am not a part of a PR campaign, I did not witness who killed the dead man down near the front on the night of the 14th, and I didn't specifically state who did.  I only describe who was clearly firing guns, the sounds and unison of their guns, the extreme obviousness of who they were, and the almost completely unarmed protesters that really were just hanging back behind obstacles watching (admittedly while a half dozen or so were up front at any one time trying to rile up their enemy).  I do state however that I have no evidence -- and did not witness -- the killing or shooting of the man that was picked up by med personnel on the 14th.

I don't know why you say I was extrordinarily brave when there were a few hundred others, as well as a visible amount of foreigners, both of whom lingered up closer than I did.  But you are right, I was very scared the whole time.

About the dates you mentioned of the 15th and 16th the Army had moved into those areas alright. I can't be buggered going back to find them but there were some photos and statements put up here on one of the TV threads by CRES I think it was showing shooters up high. While the Army perimeter was being put in place apart from the ground battle there was also another going on for the snippers possies up high between the Army snipers and other snipers. There was also in the days prior to that in among the TV web board text in's a few noting that ground troops were afraid to go forward once they had sealed the perimeter. The texts also noted that ground troops in the perimeter were constantly and nervously peering up. Who was shooting these people is open to debate, but there are more options than just the Army.

[animatic]

She said her team could not tend to gunshot victims inside Pathum Wanaram Temple because they were stopped at the gate and questioned about their political stance.

This is one of the things I find so distasteful about the redshirts, this constant quizzing of people's affiliation. So what if the ambulance crews stated that they didn't agree with the redshirts? Would they not be allowed to treat the wounded? It seems that this has at least delayed treatment to people inside the temple and may have resulted in a loss of life that could have been saved.

I really worry where this stopping of people and asking their political views will lead to.

She never said thay were stopped by red shirts. Man can you ever dream up what you want to believe. They were stopped and questioned by the Army. Thats what this arcticle is all about.

Why would the reds stop the medics and question there affiliation when it was reds that they were going in to help?

Because the Reds don't trust anybody,

since they themselves use false ambulances to deliver supplies.

Bill Monroe would not approve.

[Pawpcorn]

Perhaps because the military knew that the Red's had orders to shoot medics - to generate more publicity

Or the other way round. Depending who you talk to.

With only NBT and no PTV, I think I know where you get your view and information.

I get my information from ThaiVisa News Clippings "Daily Update" Section. So I would guess my sources are far far more varied and widespread than yours. And assuming that I accept what is told to me word for word, with no critical thought at context or the sources - would make me the "average Thai student"

SPOT ON!!

[slapout]

It appears neither side of the conflict thought to have medics for their causalities which should have been a planning consideration. Then again, watching the videos and reading so called eye witness reports a large group seemed to have felt invincible just by putting themselves in the positions as spectator to a gun fight (thus probably increasing casualties). Maybe the multiple warning/threats which did not come about had something to do with this, but when you are subjected to live fire, most people have the common sense to find a hole/barrier and get in/behind it. The red shirt leaders really showed a lack of planning for the eventual outcomes which were possible and predictable to all but a few. After the hospital was stormed and closed, where did they expect medical help to come from? What the army plan for medical service was, would be a question to ask them, as I doubt if any TV member knows.

[KireB]

Also in order to make it clear that I am not a part of a PR campaign, I did not witness who killed the dead man down near the front on the night of the 14th, and I didn't specifically state who did.  I only describe who was clearly firing guns, the sounds and unison of their guns, the extreme obviousness of who they were, and the almost completely unarmed protesters that really were just hanging back behind obstacles watching (admittedly while a half dozen or so were up front at any one time trying to rile up their enemy).  I do state however that I have no evidence -- and did not witness -- the killing or shooting of the man that was picked up by med personnel on the 14th.

Dear Portladstone, you start some previous posts with the statements that other posters are absolutley wrong and that their opinions were not based on facts. You consequently you keep talking about army firing and shooting (and by doing that insinuating) whereas at first you claim to have video material and then claim that you were no witness to whatever incident. Quite a contradiction, as you have no facts yourself and are purely guessing based on what you choose to believe.

[wengesot]

soliders get injured all the time. the medics job is to get them fit and back out on the battle field

Wrong, the medics job is to save their lives and to get them help as soon as pssible.

[jdinasia]

Also in order to make it clear that I am not a part of a PR campaign, I did not witness who killed the dead man down near the front on the night of the 14th, and I didn't specifically state who did. I only describe who was clearly firing guns, the sounds and unison of their guns, the extreme obviousness of who they were, and the almost completely unarmed protesters that really were just hanging back behind obstacles watching (admittedly while a half dozen or so were up front at any one time trying to rile up their enemy). I do state however that I have no evidence -- and did not witness -- the killing or shooting of the man that was picked up by med personnel on the 14th.

Dear Portladstone, you start some previous posts with the statements that other posters are absolutley wrong and that their opinions were not based on facts. You consequently you keep talking about army firing and shooting (and by doing that insinuating) whereas at first you claim to have video material and then claim that you were no witness to whatever incident. Quite a contradiction, as you have no facts yourself and are purely guessing based on what you choose to believe.

Yeppers, He's not stating facts and is. in fact, pushing propoganda disguised as first-person accounts.

edit to add quote from portland's post ------

On the very next day a person from the same Hospital crew was shot in the head and killed by the army

hmmmmmmmmm yeppers ... pure propoganda Edited May 27, 2010 by jdinasia

[NCFC]

Sigh, some people really do live in denial.

Their choice, of course.

[monkeycircus]

im quite amazed and saddened by the state of debate on this forum. and to be honest, the way most of the commenters on here act, shows little compassion or hope for reconciliation. You can spout your contempt and vitriol of all things red, and vice versa, and nothing will change. Not attempting to understand or forgive or change is why after many thousands of years of human existence people are still killing each other over bullshit. Its not enough that 80 people have died. its not enough that 75 of them were the red shirt protestors...now you want to blame them for shooting there own suporters, reporters, medics....its really pathetic. There were firefights going on, people were killed. unarmed people. its fuc_king sad. is that not enough? the army did some unreasnable things, the reds did some terrible crimes when they new the game was up. This operation was 2 months in the planning. the videos of those leaders saying they were going to burn down bangkok were available months ago. i saw them...and the thai government didnt? they had no soldiers guarding bangkoks most expensive piece of real estate? pathetic handling of this whole even. why the fuc_k were they even allowed to protest anyway - they were operating with impunity it seems, and the government could of stopped them before they became entrenched. as soon as you start seeing a situation as complicated as this from only one side, you have lost. and things will continue to get worse, and if you cant see that then youre blind.

[wlcart]

im quite amazed and saddened by the state of debate on this forum. and to be honest, the way most of the commenters on here act, shows little compassion or hope for reconciliation. You can spout your contempt and vitriol of all things red, and vice versa, and nothing will change. Not attempting to understand or forgive or change is why after many thousands of years of human existence people are still killing each other over bullshit. Its not enough that 80 people have died. its not enough that 75 of them were the red shirt protestors...now you want to blame them for shooting there own suporters, reporters, medics....its really pathetic. There were firefights going on, people were killed. unarmed people. its fuc_king sad. is that not enough? the army did some unreasnable things, the reds did some terrible crimes when they new the game was up. This operation was 2 months in the planning. the videos of those leaders saying they were going to burn down bangkok were available months ago. i saw them...and the thai government didnt? they had no soldiers guarding bangkoks most expensive piece of real estate? pathetic handling of this whole even. why the fuc_k were they even allowed to protest anyway - they were operating with impunity it seems, and the government could of stopped them before they became entrenched. as soon as you start seeing a situation as complicated as this from only one side, you have lost. and things will continue to get worse, and if you cant see that then youre blind.

As someone who lives in the area occupied by the reds I want to confirm the truth in the post. Both sides were pathetic.

The protesters set up an armed camp, the police stood by and watched it, and when all hel_l broke lose both sides went at it with complete disregard for anyone caught in the middle.

Homes, business, property and lives were destroyed by angry protesters and also by over eager undisciplined soldiers. My friend's apartment door was blown off by soldiers' shot guns "looking" for reds, and then they ate food out of his refrigerator because as they told him later "we were hungry".

Believe me, the last thing on the either side's minds during this conflict was medical personnel, or anyone else other than themselves for that matter.

[animatic]

Denial is great if it pays well.

[SamritT]

The yellow say the medic ferry in food for the Red camp in their ambulance.

The red say the medic ferry in soldier and weapons in their ambulance.

Even the head of Chula Hospital lie about no snipers are allowed in his hospital under his watch. Who should I believe?

Yellow, Red, Suthep, Chula Hospital director, medics, or just trust no one?

[intothefuture]

im quite amazed and saddened by the state of debate on this forum. and to be honest, the way most of the commenters on here act, shows little compassion or hope for reconciliation. You can spout your contempt and vitriol of all things red, and vice versa, and nothing will change. Not attempting to understand or forgive or change is why after many thousands of years of human existence people are still killing each other over bullshit. Its not enough that 80 people have died. its not enough that 75 of them were the red shirt protestors...now you want to blame them for shooting there own suporters, reporters, medics....its really pathetic. There were firefights going on, people were killed. unarmed people. its fuc_king sad. is that not enough? the army did some unreasnable things, the reds did some terrible crimes when they new the game was up. This operation was 2 months in the planning. the videos of those leaders saying they were going to burn down bangkok were available months ago. i saw them...and the thai government didnt? they had no soldiers guarding bangkoks most expensive piece of real estate? pathetic handling of this whole even. why the fuc_k were they even allowed to protest anyway - they were operating with impunity it seems, and the government could of stopped them before they became entrenched. as soon as you start seeing a situation as complicated as this from only one side, you have lost. and things will continue to get worse, and if you cant see that then youre blind.

As someone who lives in the area occupied by the reds I want to confirm the truth in the post. Both sides were pathetic.

The protesters set up an armed camp, the police stood by and watched it, and when all hel_l broke lose both sides went at it with complete disregard for anyone caught in the middle. Homes, business, property and lives were destroyed by angry protesters and also by over eager undisciplined soldiers. My friend's apartment door was blown off by soldiers' shot guns "looking" for reds, and then they ate food out of his refrigerator because as they told him later "we were hungry".

Believe me, the last thing on the either side's minds during this conflict was medical personnel, or anyone else other than themselves for that matter.

These posts move into arguments back and forth on who did what and is there proof.

But what is certain is that the Reds had 1.armed agents amongst them, using guns and m79 grenades (how much is irrelevant) 2. The Red Shirt movement was NOT peaceful. 3. No matter how many "good", regular, folks were amongst the Red Shirts....once any Reds started using weapons....the entire dynamics changed...and any peaceful protesters should have left immediately and not participated in mob violence.

The Reds simply cannot blame the army and police. In the USA and most countries in the world, if there is a demonstration...if even one person shoots a gun. It's all over, the police tactics dramatically change....And at that point...any non violent people should simply disperse and not be part of an armed mob. The decreasing numbers of demonstrators did show that many Reds did leave, when it became violent (after April 10th confrontation). But many didn't leave....and this made it very difficult for the government and the army and police. The army and police are also young Thais...they don't want to die. They don't want to kill....and they don't want to be shot by snipers or blown up by a grenade. But they had a job to do. And the government waited for another month, in spite of the enormous cost to Thailand, solely to avoid unnecessary loss of life and injury.

If Reds, or Yellows or anyone in Thailand is going to be part of a demonstration...they must decide if they are going to use violence (in which case the police and army have the right to use armed force to disperse them) or be a true peaceful demonstration, which takes more guts and conviction. Some of the Reds, certainly their leaders, certainly Seh Daeng and his black shirts...decided to make this a violent demonstration. I suspect, but cannot prove, they were ordered to do this. (I am still waiting to see a video of Mr T actually telling them to use violence..I haven't seen one yet.)

You can argue for ever... about how the police and army should have and could have done this or that.... but you will not get the UN, or any other country to back up the demonstrations of the Reds now that it is clear, from video clips that the Reds had armed people amongst them, shooting at the police.

I personally have been in many demonstrations in America...for civil rights, for nuclear disarmament... and I would never, never have participated in a demonstration that had armed people shooting at police... Never.

All the deaths are sad....But I do place the blame on the Red Shirt leaders for leading a violent demonstration and leading all these poor people who died...into their deaths. I have listened to the Red Leaders screaming at the red crowds to burn down Thailand. That was true terrorism. It scared me just listening to them talk about burning down all those buildings and telling the protesters in the north east to go burn their provincial halls. (Who is to blame for the 10 dead bodies found inside the charred Central World). I personally don't like military or police power...or over use of it... But.... there is no country in the world that will allow a demonstration to continue with armed participants (who have killed police or military when the police and military tried to disperse the crowds) and not ultimately go in with force and disperse and arrest them. As far as the police not protecting the Central World etc... I think this is very simple... the police and soldiers did not want to die. There were snipers and people shooting grenades. The police and army were also frightened...after April 10th...they stayed close together, behind barricades...trying to protect themselves. The were not out wandering around in areas controlled by the Reds or exposed to random violence. I cannot fault them for this.

Peace is only going to come back when reds, yellows, blues, all color shirts...commit to non violence. You can demonstrate and topple a government with non violence. But non violence is not just a PR concept...it is not just in word only. If you demonstrate peacefully, which the Reds had a right to do, and use civil disobedience, then you must pay the consequence of being arrested and thrown in jail. That is part of a non violent protest movement. Having armed red guards shooting at the police is just mob violence. It may seem right to some to blame the police and army, to say that they could have used less force...but I don't really see how.....and in my opinion the Reds have lost any hope of international support. They will have no international backing, other than an occasional swipe at the army and police for not being more careful....like Amnesty Intern. The world now sees clearly that the Reds were armed and dangerous. The government and the police will not be condemned internationally....only by the Puea Thai and Red Shirt leaders...and Mr. T himself will blame the government for the aftermath of a violent mob protest.

Peaceful movement? Not.

Edited May 27, 2010 by intothefuture

[SamritT]

The Yellow PAD are peaceful people.

They do not even have a wee hand gun.

This is the truth.

Prove it otherwise.