Dual Nationality Issues

[20yearsinthai]

I have a 16 sixteen year old son born in Thailand with a thai mother. I have yet to get him US citizenship as I understood i could do that anytime til he was 18 years old.

Now his mother is saying that in order for him to get out of serving in the Thai army- I should quickly get him US citizenship so he can become exempt to serve in the Thai army.

My goal is for him to have dual citizenship so he has full rights of land ownership etc here in thailand. My worry is that if he uses the US citizenship to aviod the Thai army will that also revoke his thai citizenship and associated rights.

thankyou

[Nordlys]

I'm afraid your son has to go do the lot drawing when he's summoned to do so (at age 18) as long as he's a Thai citizen residing in Thailand (that is, as long as he has Tabien Baan in Thailand), regardless of whatever else the citizenship he has. I heard there's one in ten chances one will be conscripted as a result of lot drawing, but I'm sure there's a way around even if your son is unlucky enough to pull the red ball. Maybe samran can give you a better answer to this.

Edited June 16, 2005 by Nordlys

[samran]

The full details of Thai military service are available on the Thai consulates website in Los Angeles. Unfortunately for you, they are in Thai.

Briefly, obtaining him US citizenship will do nothing towards getting him out of conscription. All Thai males are eligible to report for the drafting day, so short of him renouncing his Thai nationality, as long as he is living in Thailand he will have to report. It is part of the constitution.

There are a couple of ways around it though. If he is in full time study he can defer reporting for the draft until he completes his study. This is especially useful if he is going on to university.

The other way is for him to do cadets once a week for 3 years while he is in high school (you may have noticed a lot of high school boys walking around in army fatigues during the week). By doing this they are considered to have fulfilled his military obligation.

The other thing to do is take him off the house register and move him to the US until he is 30. Once over 30, Thai males (if they become conscripted) will be immediately discharged into a non-active unit, loosely speaking, a Thai version the army reserves. In reality, all Thai men between 18 and 45 are a part of the reserves, but they are only called up in times of national emergency. Unless Thailand is invaded by China, a reserve soldier is unlikely to ever see a military uniform.

If all of the above are not possible, then in the first April of his 18th year he will need to report to the local draft office to pull a ball out of a hat. Choosing a red ball means he will be conscripted for 2 years, black ball means he is released. Odds of being conscripted vary depending on the district you are in and the number of volunterrs. In some districts, the quota of new recruits is filled by volunteers, so they do not undertake the draft for that year. If there the quota is not filled by volunteers, the balance is filled by unlucky draftees.

If your son does get a university degree however, he can offer to volunteer on the drafting day. By doing this, he only has to serve 6 months. If he doesn’t volunteer however, and then picks the red ball, he will need to serve the full two years.

[samran]

Oh yeah, and you should get his US citizenship ASAP. It becomes harder to pass on citizenship the older your child gets. Many countries actually restrict you applying for citizenship by decent once they reach adulthood. Australia for instance makes it hard to get citizenship by decent if you are older than 25.

If you want him to get US citizenship, best bet would be to do it now, lest he can't get it later.

[Nordlys]

Samran,

I don't really understand the difference between 3 years cadet thing during high school years and being a reserve between 18 - 45. If you have fulfilled the 3 years cadet program you no longer are a reserve after 18 and will not even be called upon at the time of the national emergency? 3 years cadet thing sounds much like ROTC program for college students in US to me. Do Thai high school students get paid during that 3 years cadet program?

I also wonder the legality of having minor serve in the military even just for once a week. Isn't there a U.N. charter or something forbidding minors to serve in the armed forces that Thailand rafities?

Also when exactly is the 'drafting day'?

Do they send you a letter telling when and where you should go do the drawing or will they just have to report themselves at the recruitment office on any day in April when they reach age 18?

Edited June 16, 2005 by Nordlys

[qualtrough]

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see one option mentioned. Over the years I have known several male Thais who have gotten out of the draft by paying a bribe. Easily arranged and not expensive.

[Nordlys]

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see one option mentioned. Over the years I have known several male Thais who have gotten out of the draft by paying a bribe. Easily arranged and not expensive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My brother-in-laws did that.

They each paid about B15,000, I heard.

[samran]

Samran,

I don't really understand the difference between 3 years cadet thing during high school years and being a reserve between 18 - 45.  If you have fulfilled the 3 years cadet program you no longer are a reserve after 18 and will not even be called upon at the time of the national emergency?  3 years cadet thing sounds much like ROTC program for college students in US to me.  Do Thai high school students get paid during that 3 years cadet program? 

I also wonder the legality of having minor serve in the military even just for once a week.  Isn't there a  U.N. charter or something forbidding minors to serve in the armed forces that Thailand rafities? 

Also when exactly is the 'drafting day'? 

Do they send you a letter telling when and where you should go do the drawing or will they just have to report themselves at the recruitment office on any day in April when they reach age 18?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nord, yep, cadets are a ROTC like structure. Cadets must be a UK/Australian word. In any case, you are learning military skills one day a week, firing guns, running lots, getting yelled out...and getting out of school. My mates who have done it said it was more a bit of teenage fun than anything else. Don't know if it contravenes UN charters...but who listens to the UN anyway.

As for the reserves, as I read it, it works like this:

1) Complete Cadets/ROTC ---> get discharged into the inactive army reserve pool

2) Pick a black ball out of hat ---> not required to see active service ----> get discharged into the inactive army reserve pool

3) Pick the red ball ----> Do 2 years active service ----> get discharged into the inactive army reserve pool

4) Turn 30 not having been to a conscription day AND pick a red ball, get automatically discharged into the army reserves

In all cases, as a member of the reserves, you are eligble to be called up until you are 45 in times of national emergency. The main difference is that as a reserve member you may not have necessarily have had any formal miliary training. It is not an reserves force as in the 'weekend warrior' sense that we see in US/UK/Australia. In Thailand, it is essentially a pool of manpower that can be called up if need be.

As for the bribing...well I tend to try and avoid bring up these issues on TV.

I am not naive enough to know what does/doesn't in Thailand, but my advice for to to foriegners living in thailand is that there are always ways around things that don't doesn't involve bribery. In many cases, things can be sorted other ways. Plus, the military is already one of the most corrupt institutions in Thailand, so it doesn't need any encouragement.

The other reason is that I have relatives and friends who are miltary officers, who have served quite proudly albeit in tough circumstances. In many circles it is seen as an honour to serve, so to encourage a factor (corruption) which makes their lives/careers harder than need be isn't something I want to encourage.

[samran]

Sorry, forgot to add: You register with the military when you are 17 in the district you are registered in. They send you a letter saying you need to turn up, you either send back a deferal form, or you turn up the next April.

I think the penalty for avoidance is 1 month imprisonment or a 100 baht fine....yes seriously.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Thank God it isn't both

[20yearsinthai]

Thankyou all for the great information.

the mindset of the boys mother (we are seperated) is always to take the bribery route which I will try not not to succomb to. Personnaly I dont think its a bad idea to serve your country and teh once a week cadets thing might be a good compromise.

On the dual nationality thing-- Will getting US citizenship and a US passport for my son in any way jeoprdise is Thai nationality?

Thanks again

[Nordlys]

Thank God it isn't both

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As for the bribing...well I tend to try and avoid bring up these issues on TV.

I am not naive enough to know what does/doesn't in Thailand, but my advice for to to foriegners living in thailand is that there are always ways around things that don't doesn't involve bribery. In many cases, things can be sorted other ways. Plus, the military is already one of the most corrupt institutions in Thailand, so it doesn't need any encouragement.

The other reason is that I have relatives and friends who are miltary officers, who have served quite proudly albeit in tough circumstances. In many circles it is seen as an honour to serve, so to encourage a factor (corruption) which makes their lives/careers harder than need be isn't something I want to encourage.

Thanks samran, as always, for clear-cut answers.

I understand what you mean.

I'm not proud my brother-in-laws got around draft by bribing. My wife and her family is 2nd generation Chinese-Thai, and I heard Chinese-Thais do tend to avoid military service at whatever the cost. I often argue with my wife how it is that Thailand is among the best host country for overseas Chinese and that they are among the most fortunate of Chinese immigrants that spread throughout the Asia and yet their sons have nothing to contribute to its adopted land when it comes to national service.

But that's their life, I'm fortunate enough not to have to face conscription in both of my countries and I don't know what I'd do if faced with draft/active duty, so I don't accuse them in their face and never bring up the subject in their presence.

Just I don't know how a country can go into war when those at front lines know those behind could get away what they're going through for mere B15,000.

Edited June 17, 2005 by Nordlys

[Nordlys]

On the dual nationality thing-- Will getting US citizenship and a US passport for my son in any way jeoprdise is Thai nationality?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think so.

I still don't know what the law is in Thailand with regard to multi-citizenship, but as far as Thai gov't is concerned, if your son is born in Thailand to a Thai parent, he will remain a Thai citizen regardless of whatever else the citizenship he has/will get unless he voluntarily renounces his Thai citizenship. Frankly, I don't even know how the Thai authority can/will find out how and when your son acquired US citizenship.

I and samran are Jap/Thai, Aussie/Thai dual citizenship holders.

[20yearsinthai]

My real worry is that my son will give up his thai nationality for fear of having to go into the army. Our future is in thailand

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Use the Thai way and all will be well

[camerata]

I'm not proud my brother-in-laws got around draft by bribing.  My wife and her family is 2nd generation Chinese-Thai, and I heard Chinese-Thais do tend to avoid military service at whatever the cost.  I often argue with my wife how it is that Thailand is among the best host country for overseas Chinese and that they are among the most fortunate of Chinese immigrants that spread throughout the Asia and yet their sons have nothing to contribute to its adopted land when it comes to national service. 

I think you're being a little harsh here. This is not Sandhurst the kids are going to, it's two years learning how to be cannon fodder, mixing with some pretty tough characters and being indoctrinated with very undemocratic ideas (note how readily the army committed atrocities against civilians they'd been told were communists during Black May and against civilians they believed to be "terrorists" more recently down South).

For a smart kid who's about to go to university, this could be a traumatic and useless experience which will delay his studies for a couple of years. After all, if the Thai Army was so good it would be a volunteer army. When was the last war Thailand fought?

Paying to avoid conscription is widely accepted as a way to keep middle-class kids out of an unpleasant experience. It just happens that most of the middle class is of Chinese ancestry, but not exactly fresh-off-the-boat immigrants.

If I had a kid of conscription age my main objection would be that the army in Thailand clearly does not exist to uphold the principle of democracy. It has been involved in countless coups (at least one against an elected government) motivated by personal ambition and power, and until recently it was normal for the army to dictate to elected governments. I don't think this is a healthy environment for a kid.

[camerata]

Use the Thai way and all will be well 

I actually once lent a kid the money to do things the Thai way since his dad was broke. Boy, was he happy. And paid me back every last baht.

[Nordlys]

Use the Thai way and all will be well 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I actually once lent a kid the money to do things the Thai way since his dad was broke. Boy, was he happy. And paid me back every last baht.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How much did it cost him?

If I may ask...

[camerata]

How much did it cost him? 

If I may ask...

As I recall, 18,000 baht. This was in Bangkok over 10 years ago.