Difficult Times In Chiang Mai

[Maejo Man]

Everybody seems to be doing a wonderful job patting themselves on the back on how well they are propping up the local economy.

Bottom line is, if the service is good...you tip, if it's brilliant you leave a larger tip. If it's bad...no tip!

[nikster]

About tipping... sure I also don't tip for bad service. The right thing to do is to pay the bill, and leave, never come back obviously. I sometimes can't help a sneer, my Thai cold shoulder skills are simply not good enough. Wish they were, really The thing not to do is start a ruckus, argue that you don't want to pay the bill for some reason, and generally lose your temper.

For any kind of normal service, I'll tip.

Edited June 9, 2010 by nikster

[twofortheroad]

[

No, no, I do agree with you. I know you don't have this attitude I mentioned, but many others in this thread do. Sorry I messed up with the quotes...

"Yes, yes, I do agree with you", surely?

[inthepink]

as someone has said on here, that the baht is quite strong due to its export led business, so how does that work then, a strong baht only makes exports more expensive for the buyer, more realistically that the goverment is propping up the baht for their own reasons.

The baht is strong owing to the fact that the economy expanded at a rate of over 9% in the first quarter of this year (annualised). If their export businesses are doing well then of course this will strengthen the baht. Imagine I want to buy 1000 car transporters from a Thai company. Either I will have to buy baht to pay them for the transporters or if they sell them to me in USD then they will exchange the dollars for baht....either way a demand for baht is created.

(As an aside to the person who thinks that "kee nok" means you smell of bird poo, this is wrong (although I understand the confusion from the literal translation). It means you are cheap. I believe it comes from the guava of the same name which is small and bitter, although I could be imagining that.)

Regarding tipping (which I think was the subject of this thread?) it is definitely a part of Thai culture among the wealthier citizens. I certainly wouldn't advocate Westerners tipping because we have more money then Thai people though as that is a silly generalisation. I know plenty of Thai people with a lot more money than I have.

[mojo80]

Utter Rubbish,

A tip is to show gratitude for good service!!!!!!! good service=good tip bad service=NO TIP....

As for paying for goods, get the price as low as you can, they will never sell for a loss, remember that!

Maybe the OP has been here too long, his post suggest that in hard times we should pay more! the typical thai way which doesnt promote good business!

Sometimes a tip is to show gratitude for good service, and sometimes a tip is too show empathy with the lower-paid members of society. When I popped out last night, other than serve me the two drinks with a smile when I asked for them, I needed no other assistance from the staff , but I gave them a 40 baht tip all the same, because I could see that business was slow and their tips were probably down. A trifling amount, but it was appreciated, I'm sure.

When it comes to haggling at the street markets, I pay what I consider to be a fair price for me and the vendor. I often know what the lowest price is but I choose to pay a little bit more to help them in their admirable attempts at self-employment (if you've ever owned your own business you would understand). I am also aware of how much I should be paying according to my social status. You may be unaware of this, but to hagggle the price to the lowest level would be unbecoming to a person of my standing. That may not apply to you, so don't worry too much if you don't understand it.

I have been here a long time, but if the result of that is that I'm a bit more understanding and sympathetic, then that's a price I'm willing to pay.

Firstly, you said she was nice and polite whilst serving your drinks, yes who wouldnt leave a tip! good service= tip, thats my point! It isnt always about whether the food is the best ( as long as it isnt under cooked and raw or the soft drink warm and flat) then its about the service the staff provide, a small smile goes along way to me. IE if you had a waiter/ess who couldnt care less about you being there then. bad service =NO TIP

It is always situational. Your post implies to tip regardless,based on the fact you assume we are better of then them as we have more money. To me better off doesnt always mean those who have more money have a better life!

Secondly if your social standing is so aloft, how on earth would you know all the prices of street goods! Rubbish. More importantly what you think is a fair price is in fact a highly inflatted price because they proberly saw you coming! Example: Mango wood wine holder they offer you 500, and tell you cost is 250(which you believe) so you pay 350. there happy your happy! Reality! factory price20-30 baht Not getting ripped of price 80-150 baht. Ultimately its properly customers like you which have directly resulted in these sole traders losing sales at normal prices, hanging in there for the over inflated ( price and ego) customers!

Thirdly. regardless of ALLEGED social standing, its one thing paying a fair price and something completely different throwing money down the drain, regardless of how much you have!

[AndersSN]

The baht is strong owing to the fact that the economy expanded at a rate of over 9% in the first quarter of this year (annualised). If their export businesses are doing well then of course this will strengthen the baht. Imagine I want to buy 1000 car transporters from a Thai company. Either I will have to buy baht to pay them for the transporters or if they sell them to me in USD then they will exchange the dollars for baht....either way a demand for baht is created.

Don't forget interest rates.At the moment the leading interest rate in Thailand is 1,25% compared to the UK's 0,5%

This is a powerful tool for adjusting exchange rates, it's being kept high because a strong Bath benefits the rich.

[ianf]

This is the dumbest suggestion I have heard in a while.

A seasonal business that can not survive a few months of lull is not much of a business.  They *should* close.  When things are right, different operators with start new businesses or old operators will reopen.  It's an equilibrium.  If there is no demand, it's silly to subsidize something that is not needed.

The fall in trade is not just seasonal. It is because of the events in Bangkok and just like the Bali Bombs, it will take a long while for business to pick up. I'm not talking about subsidising peoples business, I'm talking about not screwing the last baht of profit out of a small trader that is struggling to pay their rent, and tipping the nice kids that are paid a pittance in small restaurants, who can not make ends meet due to lower tips. The town is way down on tourist arrivals - as much as 50% at a guess. It is traditionally still the low-season, but it is more like a no-season. I'm just suggesting people be a bit more generous. It's not the answer to all the woes but if it gives a little bit of relief to someone, that's not so dumb. It might even make you feel good. 

I think you are beating an empty drum.

It's often like that on this forum.

However, I agree with what you say and intend and appreciate your generosity of spirit.

[twofortheroad]

Sometimes a tip is to show gratitude for good service, and sometimes a tip is too show empathy with the lower-paid members of society. When I popped out last night, other than serve me the two drinks with a smile when I asked for them, I needed no other assistance from the staff , but I gave them a 40 baht tip all the same, because I could see that business was slow and their tips were probably down. A trifling amount, but it  was appreciated, I'm sure.  

When it comes to haggling at the street markets, I pay what I consider to be a fair price for me and the vendor. I often know what the lowest price is but I choose to pay a little bit more to help them in their admirable attempts at self-employment (if you've ever owned your own  business you would understand).  I am also aware of how much I should be paying according to my social status. You may be unaware of this, but to hagggle the price to the lowest level would be unbecoming to a person of my standing. That may not apply to you, so don't worry too much if you don't understand it.

I have been here a long time, but if the result of that is that I'm a bit more understanding and sympathetic, then that's a price I'm willing to pay.

Firstly, you said she was nice and polite whilst serving your drinks, yes who wouldnt leave a tip! good service= tip, thats my point! It isnt always about whether the food is the best ( as long as it isnt under cooked and raw or the soft drink warm and flat) then its about the service the staff provide, a small smile goes along way to me. IE if you had a waiter/ess who couldnt care less about you being there then. bad service =NO TIP

It is always situational. Your post implies to tip regardless,based  on the fact you assume we are  better of then them as we have more money. To me better off doesnt always mean those who have more money have a better life!

Secondly if your social standing is so aloft, how on earth would you know all the prices of street goods! Rubbish. More importantly what you think is a fair price is in fact a highly inflatted price because they proberly saw you coming! Example: Mango wood wine holder they offer you 500, and tell you cost is 250(which you believe) so you pay 350. there happy your happy! Reality! factory price20-30 baht Not getting ripped of price 80-150 baht. Ultimately its properly customers like you which have directly resulted in these sole traders losing sales at normal prices, hanging in there for the over inflated ( price and ego) customers!

Thirdly. regardless of ALLEGED social standing, its one thing paying a fair price and something completely different throwing money down the drain, regardless of how much you have!

Firstly, I don't assume that we are  financially better off than them. I know for sure that we are better off than Thai bar/restaurant staff.  Obviously I wouldn't tip if for some strange reason the service was bad, but otherwise I tip, espescially under the current circumstances.

Secondly, I know the price of street goods by virtue of the fact that I've lived in Thailand for so long, aloftly or not. 

Thirdly, I'm fully aware of my social standing in Thailand (not ALLEGED), as everyone should be - it's very important. Also, I wasn't advocating throwing money down the drain, just being a little bit generous and considerate to others less fortunate. Maybe that is wasteful to you. FYI, I'm certainly not wealthy. In fact I am struggling of late, too, hence my understanding of other people's plight.

If my actions offend or inconvenience you, accept my sincere apologies, but I'm afraid you haven't convinced me* to change, and I'm sure the same is true of you. 

*Your Mojo's not working.

[inthepink]

The baht is strong owing to the fact that the economy expanded at a rate of over 9% in the first quarter of this year (annualised). If their export businesses are doing well then of course this will strengthen the baht. Imagine I want to buy 1000 car transporters from a Thai company. Either I will have to buy baht to pay them for the transporters or if they sell them to me in USD then they will exchange the dollars for baht....either way a demand for baht is created.

Don't forget interest rates.At the moment the leading interest rate in Thailand is 1,25% compared to the UK's 0,5%

This is a powerful tool for adjusting exchange rates, it's being kept high because a strong Bath benefits the rich.

I don't think this is a major factor at the moment. The Euro area's rate is 1% compared to the UK's 0.5% and have a look at that pairs performance recently. Plus given the rate of expansion of the Thai economy it wouldn't be good monetary policy to lower interest rates at the moment.

UK Q1 GDP = + 0.3% on annual basis

Thai Q1 GDP = + 12% on annual basis (I misquoted this in previous post, sorry)

This is the reason for the interest rate policy, not a conspiracy to benefit the rich (in my humble opinion)

Edited June 9, 2010 by inthepink

[mojo80]

As much as id love to reply in detail to your post, my 10 baht in the internet cafe is running out, and if i dont start collecting empty bottles and metal to turn in to some cash for my next fix of lao khao, the withdrawals will start kicking in......

PS any chance of some cash please?

Edited June 9, 2010 by mojo80

[anonymouse]

Everybody seems to be doing a wonderful job patting themselves on the back on how well they are propping up the local economy.

Bottom line is, if the service is good...you tip, if it's brilliant you leave a larger tip. If it's bad...no tip!

The tipping topic has been done to death countless times, I go along with Maejo Man, low or high season.

And as for being better off than the Thai's I'm sure that my Thai neighbours earn a higher family income than I do and I'm sure they are not throwing their money about to their less well off brethren.

[sarahsbloke]

As an aside to the person who thinks that "kee nok" means you smell of bird poo, this is wrong (although I understand the confusion from the literal translation). It means you are cheap. I believe it comes from the guava of the same name which is small and bitter, although I could be imagining that.

We will have to differ on the definition then, I was told by my Thai teacher that it was a phrase coined many years ago by farmers about the white backpackers that used to walk by. Smelly and cheap, like the fertilizer they were putting on their crops, which was of course bird poo ...... farang Kee nok. I have never heard it without 'farang', so a racist insult IMHO.

PS

I don't own a house or a car in Thailand, until I do, there won't be any big tips flying around. I'll leave that to the Thais who have both!

Edited June 9, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[Token]

Following the demonstrations in Bangkok and the broadcasting of the events world-wide, Chiang Mai is almost devoid of tourists. Hotels are practically empty, the Night Bazaar, bars and restaurants are deserted and many locals are suffering. I've heard tales of hotels possibly closing for a month and staff being laid off or offered a reduced salary.

Under these circumstances, I'm sure there are plenty of people wondering how they can help. Here's the answer, and it is relevant to one of the other topics raised on this forum.

Pay more.

As some people here are aware, some richer, kinder Thais pay more for goods and services than poorer Thais, as this is part of their way of helping those less fortunate. Therefore, maybe now is the time for some of us to be a bit less fanatic in haggling away the last few baht of profit when shopping and to be a bit more generous in our tips when we eat or drink out. The traders are certainly going to have to sell at any price just to get some sort of profit, so their mark-ups are going to be very low, but we can show some kindness by being a bit more generous and not bargaining as much. Also, for many in the bar/restaurant business, tips are a significant part of their income, so leaving a larger tip will surely be helping them out now that they have fewer customers. Give it a try, I'm sure it will be appreciated, and it will make you feel good.

Paternalism is NOT the way to help Thais. That's how they got into the problem in the first place - too many farangs giving too much for goods and services means more and more Thai businesses want more and more - then when the tourists stop coming, we should give even more charity? Stop treating Thais like children and they will stop treating farangs like mummies and daddies. All this goody goody patronising makes me sick.

[nikster]

Paternalism is NOT the way to help Thais. That's how they got into the problem in the first place - too many farangs giving too much for goods and services means more and more Thai businesses want more and more - then when the tourists stop coming, we should give even more charity? Stop treating Thais like children and they will stop treating farangs like mummies and daddies. All this goody goody patronising makes me sick.

Being a little less stingy isn't paternalism. Do you think your brave act of being a tight-ass is going to teach Thailand... anything? I think a lot of you guys are deathly afraid of being taken advantage of. Get over yourselves.

If you can demonstrate your intelligence and wit by paying the absolute minimum, you could demonstrate your wisdom by paying a bit more. The sums involved are so small I doubt it would make a material difference for most of us. If you can afford the restaurant, you can afford the tip. If you can afford the stuff you're buying, you can afford not haggling down to the bare minimum.

[keo]

As an aside to the person who thinks that "kee nok" means you smell of bird poo, this is wrong (although I understand the confusion from the literal translation). It means you are cheap. I believe it comes from the guava of the same name which is small and bitter, although I could be imagining that.

We will have to differ on the definition then, I was told by my Thai teacher that it was a phrase coined many years ago by farmers about the white backpackers that used to walk by. Smelly and cheap, like the fertilizer they were putting on their crops, which was of course bird poo ...... farang Kee nok. I have never heard it without 'farang', so a racist insult IMHO.

PS

I don't own a house or a car in Thailand, until I do, there won't be any big tips flying around. I'll leave that to the Thais who have both!

Don't believe everything your Thai teacher says! I heard of one Thai teacher telling their student that the word for pen - ปากกา (bpaak gaa) came from the Parker brand of pens. Incredible!

As for the arguments regarding the meanings and origins of ฝรั่ง (farang) and ฝรั่งขี้นก (farang khee nohk) - who really cares? It's been done to death already.

P.S> m Thai teacher told me that the word farang actually comes from the word for potato - มันฝรั่ง. Apparently it was coined by a farmer who, while digging up potatoes, noticed that foreigners and potatoes bore a striking resemblance - round, white and dirty.

[Ulysses G.]

Do you think your brave act of being a tight-ass is going to teach Thailand... anything?

[jdinasia]

This thread really IS good for a laugh

[Token]

Paternalism is NOT the way to help Thais. That's how they got into the problem in the first place - too many farangs giving too much for goods and services means more and more Thai businesses want more and more - then when the tourists stop coming, we should give even more charity? Stop treating Thais like children and they will stop treating farangs like mummies and daddies. All this goody goody patronising makes me sick.

Being a little less stingy isn't paternalism. Do you think your brave act of being a tight-ass is going to teach Thailand... anything? I think a lot of you guys are deathly afraid of being taken advantage of. Get over yourselves.

If you can demonstrate your intelligence and wit by paying the absolute minimum, you could demonstrate your wisdom by paying a bit more. The sums involved are so small I doubt it would make a material difference for most of us. If you can afford the restaurant, you can afford the tip. If you can afford the stuff you're buying, you can afford not haggling down to the bare minimum.

When a pensioners pension has been reduced by a third or more by exchange rate differences, bank failures or investment crashes and then if asking a Thai shop keeper/tuk tuk driver/landlord etc to reduce his prices so that the pensioner can afford to stay here and he agrees then I will agree with you. Let's face it, none of us will teach Thais anything except how to live off farangs (referring to the businesses the OP refers to). If you really want to throw your cash around and help someone - go out into the countryside and give some of the Thai farmers some of your dosh - they are the ones keeping this country afloat for a pittance - not the ones leaching off tourists. Get a brain.

[Paagai]

Bottom line is, if the service is good...you tip, if it's brilliant you leave a larger tip. If it's bad...no tip!

And serivce can be good in strange ways here. I remember an interesting lesson from a Thai friend a few years ago. Having dinner in a restuarant one of several dishes clearly had meat that was well past its expiry date, I was about to call the waiter over and my friend motioned me to stop. He took the plate of smelly food and simply placed it on the bottom shelf of the little drinks table. When the bill came the dish was omitted, we left a big tip and everyone was smiling - soemtimes mysterious but the Thai way works.....

In Farang land there would have been an argument about the bill and we'd have left muttering F***ing this, F***ing that under our breath with NO TIP.

[cmdream]

Everybody seems to be doing a wonderful job patting themselves on the back on how well they are propping up the local economy.

Bottom line is, if the service is good...you tip, if it's brilliant you leave a larger tip. If it's bad...no tip!

The tipping topic has been done to death countless times, I go along with Maejo Man, low or high season.

And as for being better off than the Thai's I'm sure that my Thai neighbours earn a higher family income than I do and I'm sure they are not throwing their money about to their less well off brethren.

"I am sure" sounds like false conjecture. Have you talked to your Thai neighbors about their income? Nobody throws their money about. Well maybe Mr. T who has an ego problem :-)

[twofortheroad]

It's amazing to see the heated arguments that can come out of a simple post like this. Nikster got the point entirely right, as did a few others - a simple request to be a little bit more generous on tips and to be not too aggressive on the haggling with business people that may be struggling to make ends meet.. No suggestion of throwing money about or rewarding bad service. Just a simple request to be sympathetic and generous in a small way .Although some people see my point of view, on the whole, most of you would rather find reasons not to help anyone , and give the impression that you wouldn't piss on someone if they were on fire.

One thing that's abundantly clear is that there are a lot of people here that underneath it all,  aren't so happy. Just give them a little scratch and all the bitterness and resentment comes out. I get the impression that most of them don't even like the Thai people and find living here a constant battle to avoid being ripped off and taken advantage of. 

Interesting.

[anonymouse]

Everybody seems to be doing a wonderful job patting themselves on the back on how well they are propping up the local economy.

Bottom line is, if the service is good...you tip, if it's brilliant you leave a larger tip. If it's bad...no tip!

The tipping topic has been done to death countless times, I go along with Maejo Man, low or high season.

And as for being better off than the Thai's I'm sure that my Thai neighbours earn a higher family income than I do and I'm sure they are not throwing their money about to their less well off brethren.

"I am sure" sounds like false conjecture. Have you talked to your Thai neighbors about their income? Nobody throws their money about. Well maybe Mr. T who has an ego problem :-)

I'm an Englishman so I have the good breeding not to discuss income levels with my neighbours but I am still 'sure' that their income levels are higher than mine.

I'll change my last sentence to read "I'm sure they are not giving any more money to their less well off brethren" to silence the more pedantic posters

Edited June 9, 2010 by anonymouse

[cmdream]

Your an Englishman, that says a lot. You are forgiven

[Token]

One thing that's abundantly clear is that there are a lot of people here that underneath it all, aren't so happy. Just give them a little scratch and all the bitterness and resentment comes out. I get the impression that most of them don't even like the Thai people and find living here a constant battle to avoid being ripped off and taken advantage of.

Interesting.

Ordinary Thais are fine - great people - it's just those spoilt by getting fat off brainless farangs who throw their money about and call it charity that get up my nose - you can find them in CM, Phuket, Pattaya and proportionally to a lesser extent in BKK buzzing around their hosts and then slagging them off behind their backs. Outside these areas they are fine.

[twofortheroad]

I'm an Englishman so I have the good breeding not to discuss income levels with my neighbours   but I am still 'sure' that their income levels are higher than mine.

I'll change my last sentence to read "I'm sure they are not giving any more money to their less well off brethren" to silence the more pedantic posters  

All the same, your argument still seems to be that since your neighbours are rich and mean,  you  are justified in not being kind. If they don't do it why should you, right?  By the way, no-one suggested 'throwing money around'. Small tips to those at the end of the food chain that's all. You don't need to rich to do that.

[twofortheroad]

Ordinary Thais are fine - great people - it's just those spoilt by getting fat off brainless farangs who throw their money about and call it charity that get up my nose - you can find them in CM, Phuket, Pattaya and proportionally to a lesser extent in BKK buzzing around their hosts and then slagging them off behind their backs. Outside these areas they are fine.

It's well worth being a brainless farang 'throwing money around' (that phrase AGAIN!) , because besides helping good people in a small way, it also annoys the miserable, negative lost souls that abound.

Whether you agree with me or not is not important (it was just a suggestion), "so long as your happy", as my Mother would say. Somehow, I don't think some of you are.

Edited June 9, 2010 by twofortheroad

[seanocasey]

it saddens me to see lifetime dreams destroyed by investments in the tourist related industry.

there are those in Thailand that will say when they had it good they overcharged that may also be true, if one looks at the classifieds for Chiang mai pattaya phuket commercial properties it becomes all to clear where everything is progressing to investment in Thailand at the moment is a no no all I expect land to grow, a farm as Jim Rogers pushes and mark Faber who loves Chiang mai so much.

[twofortheroad]

it saddens me to see lifetime dreams destroyed by investments in the tourist related industry.

there are those in Thailand that will say when they had it good they overcharged that may also be true, if one looks at the classifieds for Chiang mai pattaya phuket commercial properties it becomes all to  clear where everything is progressing to investment in Thailand at the moment is a no no all I expect land to grow, a farm as Jim Rogers pushes and mark Faber who loves Chiang mai so much.

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say. Am I alone in that?

[anonymouse]

I'm an Englishman so I have the good breeding not to discuss income levels with my neighbours   but I am still 'sure' that their income levels are higher than mine.

I'll change my last sentence to read "I'm sure they are not giving any more money to their less well off brethren" to silence the more pedantic posters  

All the same, your argument still seems to be that since your neighbours are rich and mean,  you  are justified in not being kind. If they don't do it why should you, right?  By the way, no-one suggested 'throwing money around'. Small tips to those at the end of the food chain that's all. You don't need to rich to do that.

Not at all, I will tip in most circumstances unless the service is bad. What I'm saying is that a lot of us westerners who are percieved as having stacks of baht are often no better off than their Thai neighbours.

[cdnvic]

One inappropriate post and another quoting it removed.