Difficult Times In Chiang Mai

[thaimiller]

Following the demonstrations in Bangkok and the broadcasting of the events world-wide, Chiang Mai is almost devoid of  tourists. Hotels are practically empty, the Night Bazaar, bars and restaurants are deserted and many locals are suffering.  I've heard tales of hotels possibly closing for a month and staff being laid off or offered a reduced salary.

Under these circumstances, I'm sure there are plenty of people wondering how they can help. Here's the answer, and it is relevant to one of the other topics raised on this forum.

Pay more.

As some people here are aware, some richer, kinder Thais pay more for goods and services than poorer Thais, as this is part of their way of helping those less fortunate. Therefore, maybe now is the time for some of us to be a bit less fanatic in haggling away the last few baht of profit when shopping and to be a bit more generous in our tips when we eat or drink out. The traders are certainly going to have to sell at any price just to get some sort of profit, so their mark-ups are going to be very low, but we can show some kindness by being a bit more generous and not bargaining as much.  Also, for many in the bar/restaurant business, tips are a significant part of their income, so leaving a larger tip will surely be helping them out now that they have fewer customers. Give it a try,  I'm sure it will be appreciated, and it will make you feel good.

I agree with this a little, so to help the bars etc, Ive decided to have 3 pints instead of 2 next time im in a bar in town, thats my little contribution. I'll even start it this Sunday before the Chiang mai game in my bar of choice

[Ulysses G.]

Sorry Nancy, I think the way to go is learn Thai and goto Thai places .........

It seems to me you are still a tourist (even if long-term).

It is quite possible to learn Thai and go to both kinds of places. We are ALL tourists as far as the Thais are concerned.

[twofortheroad]

Chiang Mai may be a lot quieter than the last few years but it's still a lot busier than when I arrived. Despite this there are farangs everywhere here. I can't move without bumping in to one.

My ideas of charity don't extend to donating to businesses when their profits are down.

Op either has head in clouds or is perhaps on a power trip. In any case, was in town the other night - Moon Muang/Anusarn Market - and seemed business as usual.

Op neither has his heads in the clouds or is on a power trip. It's  abundantly clear that tourism is well down. I would guess that it is between 40% to 50% down on this time last year. Future bookings are also dwindling. Maybe some other local business owners can confirm that. The fact that one or two bars or areas are busy doesn't hide that fact .

[twofortheroad]

I agree with this a little, so to help the bars etc, Ive decided to have 3 pints instead of 2 next time im in a bar in town, thats my little contribution. I'll even start it this Sunday before the Chiang mai game in my bar of choice 

That's the spirit!! (or, in your case beer).

[cmsally]

I would say business is down about 60-70% maybe more over the last month.

The picture will become clearer when European summer holidays commence.

Normally this time of year you see some Americans and Asians; don't know where they went, not many around at the moment.

But a friend of a friend out in Isan last month on an American volunteer project got whisked away out of the country (due to security issues), along with the rest of their group. So there went at least 50.

[twofortheroad]

Can't LCM51 chip in a bit? Don't want to point fingers or anything....

 If you were trying to be vague, you were very successful.

what does it mean? Who is LCM51, your big brother? Don't you have an opinion? Can't you give us some Insight?

[AndersSN]

I rarely tip in Thailand. I have only done so in rare occasions when at some fancy place with service that commanded it. If there are less tourist in Thailand it's because their not-so-distant primitive roots caught up to them and behaved, I'm sorry to say, like hillbillies for a few years now. They quite deserve the drop in tourism. If they want to attract tourists, they will have to show more civilized ways. Rewarding their non-sense would be insidious. They need to struggle to learn - not be nurtured.

Your sympathy for those struggling is admirable. I understand you're looking at the individual level: the struggling employee who can't meet ends. But I don't see it that way.

Ever heard a Thai say kheeniao or kheenok behind your back?

Tipping is part of Thai culture, a way of showing generosity, not mention a way of supporting people less fortunate. When I go out with my Thai friends I'm surprised at how generous they are with their tips, The better of you are there more you are supposed to show it. Tipping is one way, unfortunately arrogance is another, but thats beside the point in this thread.

[kudroz]

I rarely tip in Thailand. I have only done so in rare occasions when at some fancy place with service that commanded it. If there are less tourist in Thailand it's because their not-so-distant primitive roots caught up to them and behaved, I'm sorry to say, like hillbillies for a few years now. They quite deserve the drop in tourism. If they want to attract tourists, they will have to show more civilized ways. Rewarding their non-sense would be insidious. They need to struggle to learn - not be nurtured.

Your sympathy for those struggling is admirable. I understand you're looking at the individual level: the struggling employee who can't meet ends. But I don't see it that way.

Ever heard a Thai say kheeniao or kheenok behind your back?

Tipping is part of Thai culture, a way of showing generosity, not mention a way of supporting people less fortunate. When I go out with my Thai friends I'm surprised at how generous they are with their tips, The better of you are there more you are supposed to show it. Tipping is one way, unfortunately arrogance is another, but thats beside the point in this thread.

Whenever gratuity is appropriate, I obviously tip. I do not tip at the food court, I do not tip at MK or Fuji since gratuity is already included in the bill. I will sometimes leave the loose change at these places but not tip. When I got here four years ago I was tipping a lot, then one time I was out with my employees they kindly told me not to tip at many places but only at certain "high-class" venues or when gratuity is not included in the bill. Even had a discussion with one employee at a foreign owned place here in Chiang Mai and the employees had to give the tip back to the owner and was not always shared.

Are you working as a waiter or in this industry? Perhaps you could shed some light about tipping re Thai culture? I was actually under the impression that it was not really practiced here. My wife and in-laws do not tip either... Perhaps people tip in bars? I frequent bars like once per year or so... I wouldn't know.

[AndersSN]

I rarely tip in Thailand. I have only done so in rare occasions when at some fancy place with service that commanded it. If there are less tourist in Thailand it's because their not-so-distant primitive roots caught up to them and behaved, I'm sorry to say, like hillbillies for a few years now. They quite deserve the drop in tourism. If they want to attract tourists, they will have to show more civilized ways. Rewarding their non-sense would be insidious. They need to struggle to learn - not be nurtured.

Your sympathy for those struggling is admirable. I understand you're looking at the individual level: the struggling employee who can't meet ends. But I don't see it that way.

Ever heard a Thai say kheeniao or kheenok behind your back?

Tipping is part of Thai culture, a way of showing generosity, not mention a way of supporting people less fortunate. When I go out with my Thai friends I'm surprised at how generous they are with their tips, The better of you are there more you are supposed to show it. Tipping is one way, unfortunately arrogance is another, but thats beside the point in this thread.

Whenever gratuity is appropriate, I obviously tip. I do not tip at the food court, I do not tip at MK or Fuji since gratuity is already included in the bill. I will sometimes leave the loose change at these places but not tip. When I got here four years ago I was tipping a lot, then one time I was out with my employees they kindly told me not to tip at many places but only at certain "high-class" venues or when gratuity is not included in the bill. Even had a discussion with one employee at a foreign owned place here in Chiang Mai and the employees had to give the tip back to the owner and was not always shared.

Are you working as a waiter or in this industry? Perhaps you could shed some light about tipping re Thai culture? I was actually under the impression that it was not really practiced here. My wife and in-laws do not tip either... Perhaps people tip in bars? I frequent bars like once per year or so... I wouldn't know.

Maybe we are looking at this from different "heights" of Thailand? My wife and her family always tip, and well. Her family owns a restaurant and a clothing store in BKK so are fairly well of, so maybe it's more about social status than culture.

I agree that I wouldn't tip in a food court, but many of the places that include gratuity on the bill don't pass on the money to the staff, it's just a way of making more money (I know this from my wifes aunt who as many contacts within the industry in BKK) so I tip. Regarding the tip going to the owner, I have heard this as well, and know of one place in CM that works this way (at least if you leave a tip when you pay). Personally I always tip separate from the bill, to try an ensure the money going in to the staffs pocket.

[Loaded]

I rarely tip in Thailand. I have only done so in rare occasions when at some fancy place with service that commanded it. If there are less tourist in Thailand it's because their not-so-distant primitive roots caught up to them and behaved, I'm sorry to say, like hillbillies for a few years now. They quite deserve the drop in tourism. If they want to attract tourists, they will have to show more civilized ways. Rewarding their non-sense would be insidious. They need to struggle to learn - not be nurtured.

Your sympathy for those struggling is admirable. I understand you're looking at the individual level: the struggling employee who can't meet ends. But I don't see it that way.

Ever heard a Thai say kheeniao or kheenok behind your back?

Tipping is part of Thai culture, a way of showing generosity, not mention a way of supporting people less fortunate. When I go out with my Thai friends I'm surprised at how generous they are with their tips, The better of you are there more you are supposed to show it. Tipping is one way, unfortunately arrogance is another, but thats beside the point in this thread.

Tipping is not part of Thai culture.

[AndersSN]

I rarely tip in Thailand. I have only done so in rare occasions when at some fancy place with service that commanded it. If there are less tourist in Thailand it's because their not-so-distant primitive roots caught up to them and behaved, I'm sorry to say, like hillbillies for a few years now. They quite deserve the drop in tourism. If they want to attract tourists, they will have to show more civilized ways. Rewarding their non-sense would be insidious. They need to struggle to learn - not be nurtured.

Your sympathy for those struggling is admirable. I understand you're looking at the individual level: the struggling employee who can't meet ends. But I don't see it that way.

Ever heard a Thai say kheeniao or kheenok behind your back?

Tipping is part of Thai culture, a way of showing generosity, not mention a way of supporting people less fortunate. When I go out with my Thai friends I'm surprised at how generous they are with their tips, The better of you are there more you are supposed to show it. Tipping is one way, unfortunately arrogance is another, but thats beside the point in this thread.

Tipping is not part of Thai culture.

Wow your argument just blew me away.

[cmdream]

Like anything else a multitude of western opinions. Business 101 lecture on survive or die was interesting. It appears that tipping is the main subject at heart. If I eat or drink at a restaurant or bar and could not leave at least a 20 BT service tip I would feel shamed but that is me. I also changed my shopping habits from everything at Lotus to the locals. Fruits and veggies, cloths, light bulbs or whatever, it takes more time but is more fun and the Thai smiles I get is worth the effort. I guess that is the answer for me and is my reason for staying in Chiang Mai. If you have to squawk about 20 Baht it is time to reconsider your decision to live in Thailand, you will never find peace here.

It is all about the Thai people that we see everyday doing their thing, it is truly amazing.

[twofortheroad]

Ever heard a Thai say kheeniao or kheenok behind your back?

Tipping is part of Thai culture, a way of showing generosity, not mention a way of supporting people less fortunate. When I go out with my Thai friends I'm surprised at how generous they are with their tips, The better of you are there more you are supposed to show it. Tipping is one way, unfortunately arrogance is another, but thats beside the point in this thread.

Spot on. Wealthier Thais tip to show kindness and generosity and I do the same for the same reason.It's only small amounts- 20 baht here and there - but I do get the impression that it 's appreciated and they see it for what it is.

As a small example, I just got back from a bar, where I met a few nice guys, had a few fun games of darts and so had an enjoyable couple of hours. Unfortunately, I'm not drinking at the moment, so my bill was only 60baht for 2 soft drinks. As far as I'm concerned, that is a small amount for a few hours out, so I gave the 40 baht change to the staff as a tip. They weren't busy so it probably helped them in a small way. If that somehow messes it up for some of you guys, I'm sorry, but I'm going with the flow and probably much happier for it.

Certainly better than being a miserable tight-arse anyway.

Edited June 8, 2010 by twofortheroad

[Paagai]

I really can't believe some of the comments here. Where do some people think they are living? In some extension of Farang land where bad manners, arrogance, mean spiritedness, bitterness, selfishness and a pompous over inflated sense of one's own importance are the norms in interpersonal behaviour?

Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, and I know it's been said before, but we are all GUESTS IN SOMEONE ELSES COUNTRY, try thinking and behaving accordingly. Who cares whether tipping is, or was part of Thai culture or not. We have more money than them, lead by example tip generously, very generously, do it with a smile and enjoy reaping the rewards. Not just now in times of crisis but all the time, everywhere. Does that extra 20 Bt, 100 Bt or even 1000 Bt really mean so much to you? [Hint: if the answer is yes I'm sure your country of origin has an appropriate welfare program you could go and avail yourself of - most here don't have that option]

This is a country where respect commands respect and arrogance justifies contempt.

[amexpat]

I really can't believe some of the comments here. .............

Does that extra 20 Bt, 100 Bt or even 1000 Bt really mean so much to you? [Hint: if the answer is yes I'm sure your country of origin has an appropriate welfare program you could go and avail yourself of - most here don't have that option]

This is a country where respect commands respect and arrogance justifies contempt.

And that is directed most of all to those disreputable scumbags who dare to live here even though they have to watch those 1000 bt or even 100 bt bills.

Right, Paagai?

[cmdream]

I really can't believe some of the comments here. Where do some people think they are living? In some extension of Farang land where bad manners, arrogance, mean spiritedness, bitterness, selfishness and a pompous over inflated sense of one's own importance are the norms in interpersonal behaviour?

Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, and I know it's been said before, but we are all GUESTS IN SOMEONE ELSES COUNTRY, try thinking and behaving accordingly. Who cares whether tipping is, or was part of Thai culture or not. We have more money than them, lead by example tip generously, very generously, do it with a smile and enjoy reaping the rewards. Not just now in times of crisis but all the time, everywhere. Does that extra 20 Bt, 100 Bt or even 1000 Bt really mean so much to you? [Hint: if the answer is yes I'm sure your country of origin has an appropriate welfare program you could go and avail yourself of - most here don't have that option]

This is a country where respect commands respect and arrogance justifies contempt.

A little heavy but well said

[Ulysses G.]

I do not think that living on a low income makes anyone a lesser person, but when I am low on funds, I eat in the cheap Thai noodle stall type restaurants (where tips are not expected or appropriate) or eat at home. IMHO, if one chooses to eat or drink in more expensive Thai and foreign places, tipping the staff (if there is no service charge) just comes with the territory. However, that is just me.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[slapout]

I thought post #44, first paragraph was describing the LOS, then I noted the reference and think my first thought, was correct.

[paulchiangmai]

This topic has very quickly become quite bizarre. It's gone from a simple suggestion to be a bit more generous to "Farangs are the root of all evil" and  "leaving Thailand is the best option", all within the matter of  7 or 8 posts. Excellent.

I wasn't directing my suggestion at multi-national organisations it was aimed at  the small independent market  traders and low-paid workers in the hospitality business. People who will struggle to pay their rents or find the money for school fees.  Rather than show any empathy, most of the replies have shown disdain for the Thais. Par for the course, I suppose.  Anyway, it was just a suggestion. 

An interesting concept twofortheroad, when I see the words 10% service charge on a bill I then choose to not leave a tip. I would be interested in your thoughts on this, am I right or wrong?

[mojo80]

Utter Rubbish,

A tip is to show gratitude for good service!!!!!!! good service=good tip bad service=NO TIP....

As for paying for goods, get the price as low as you can, they will never sell for a loss, remember that!

Maybe the OP has been here too long, his post suggest that in hard times we should pay more! the typical thai way which doesnt promote good business!

[cmsally]

Maybe more people should use the 7/11 business model. Business for them can't be too bad.

In my local 7/11 the other day there were 7 staff and 1 customer (me).

[sarahsbloke]

Ever heard a Thai say kheeniao or kheenok behind your back?

kee-ne-ow = bar talk for tight with money, bar girls talking about customers when you don't buy them something thay ask for.

(if they haven't worked in a bar you won't hear this from a girl, guys don't say this)

Kee-nok = poor and smells like bird poo, usually about backpackers who don't wash all that often.

Utter Rubbish,

A tip is to show gratitude for good service!!!!!!! good service=good tip bad service=NO TIP....

.....

Maybe the OP has been here too long, his post suggest that in hard times we should pay more! the typical thai way which doesnt promote good business!

I'm with Mojo poor service = no tip

PS

Chaps, men should never do bar talk, marks you as a guy that hangs with whores.

Edited June 9, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[doppa]

as someone has said on here, that the baht is quite strong due to its export led business, so how does that work then, a strong baht only makes exports more expensive for the buyer, more realistically that the goverment is propping up the baht for their own reasons.

[twofortheroad]

Utter Rubbish,

A tip is to show gratitude for good service!!!!!!! good service=good tip bad service=NO TIP....

As for paying for goods, get the price as low as you can, they will never sell for a loss, remember that!

Maybe the OP has been here too long, his post suggest that in hard times we should pay more! the typical thai way which doesnt promote good business!

Sometimes a tip is to show gratitude for good service, and sometimes a tip is too show empathy with the lower-paid members of society. When I popped out last night, other than serve me the two drinks with a smile when I asked for them, I needed no other assistance from the staff , but I gave them a 40 baht tip all the same, because I could see that business was slow and their tips were probably down. A trifling amount, but it was appreciated, I'm sure.

When it comes to haggling at the street markets, I pay what I consider to be a fair price for me and the vendor. I often know what the lowest price is but I choose to pay a little bit more to help them in their admirable attempts at self-employment (if you've ever owned your own business you would understand). I am also aware of how much I should be paying according to my social status. You may be unaware of this, but to hagggle the price to the lowest level would be unbecoming to a person of my standing. That may not apply to you, so don't worry too much if you don't understand it.

I have been here a long time, but if the result of that is that I'm a bit more understanding and sympathetic, then that's a price I'm willing to pay.

Edited June 9, 2010 by twofortheroad

[nikster]

I generally tip people who I believe are poorly paid and do see the thanks and recognition. I don't haggle as much if I can see that a market trader is having a very slow day and I'm sure they appreciate it. This is dealing with people at the low end of the economy.

Then you have understood the Thai way. It's not that hard a concept - just look at the people, and know that they're normal people like you and me. And know that all the small traders in Thailand have very small margins of profit, thanks to strong competition. The wages are low. That's why food is fantastically cheap here - esp. Chiang Mai, and even by Thai standards.

I can haggle with the best of them - it's extremely simple. If you know the fair price for a goods or service, you offer it, then walk away. Then you always get the lowest price. Since I live here now, I do know the lowest price for most things. Tuk tuks, night bazaar, etc. But once you are over the whole "OMG am I getting ripped off??" phase, you can afford to be more kind. Tip at the restaurant, even tip the tuk tuk. Even at the night market, give them a bit extra. I know, they charge tourists 3x the fair price - but that's probably the only way they can afford the high rents. Do you see any of them getting filthy rich?

So think about it... give them a tip. Good deeds perpetuate, and you're doing your part in making Thailand a better place, one smile at a time. You can learn from the Thais here who often just do this even though they don't have very much themselves. Don't be proud that you got another 10 baht off the tuk tuk fare - be proud you give them a 20 baht tip.

Waiting for the just so clever sarcastic comments to drip in.... I can see 'em coming just now. Or the bitter farangs... "oh noes the Thais hate us"... well don't say "us" including me, because I don't want any part in that. Be kind and your kindness will be returned. I am not a religious person, it's just something that I have seen work over and over again.

Needless to say, I completely agree with the OP. But actually, not just in bad times. At any time.

[AndersSN]

Ever heard a Thai say kheeniao or kheenok behind your back?

kee-ne-ow = bar talk for tight with money, bar girls talking about customers when you don't buy them something thay ask for.

(if they haven't worked in a bar you won't hear this from a girl, guys don't say this)

Kee-nok = poor and smells like bird poo, usually about backpackers who don't wash all that often.

Utter Rubbish,

A tip is to show gratitude for good service!!!!!!! good service=good tip bad service=NO TIP....

.....

Maybe the OP has been here too long, his post suggest that in hard times we should pay more! the typical thai way which doesnt promote good business!

I'm with Mojo poor service = no tip

PS

Chaps, men should never do bar talk, marks you as a guy that hangs with whores.

You are right to a certain degree. Most farang would only hear or know this if they hang around too many bars. And I agree, poor service, no tip.

But you are wrong in the regard that only bargirls use these words. Sitting with my wife in her families restaurant in BKK I have heard it from both female and male staff, and about Thais as well. Also my Thai friends some of who are snobbish HiSo's use these words frequently about people they know who are less well of.

[twofortheroad]

I generally tip people who I believe are poorly paid and do see the thanks and recognition. I don't haggle as much if I can see that a market trader is having a very slow day and I'm sure they appreciate it. This is dealing with people at the low end of the economy.

Then you have understood the Thai way. It's not that hard a concept - just look at the people, and know that they're normal people like you and me. And know that all the small traders in Thailand have very small margins of profit, thanks to strong competition. The wages are low. That's why food is fantastically cheap here - esp. Chiang Mai, and even by Thai standards.

I can haggle with the best of them - it's extremely simple. If you know the fair price for a goods or service, you offer it, then walk away. Then you always get the lowest price. Since I live here now, I do know the lowest price for most things. Tuk tuks, night bazaar, etc. But once you are over the whole "OMG am I getting ripped off??" phase, you can afford to be more kind. Tip at the restaurant, even tip the tuk tuk. Even at the night market, give them a bit extra. I know, they charge tourists 3x the fair price - but that's probably the only way they can afford the high rents. Do you see any of them getting filthy rich?

So think about it... give them a tip. Good deeds perpetuate, and you're doing your part in making Thailand a better place, one smile at a time. You can learn from the Thais here who often just do this even though they don't have very much themselves. Don't be proud that you got another 10 baht off the tuk tuk fare - be proud you give them a 20 baht tip.

Waiting for the just so clever sarcastic comments to drip in.... I can see 'em coming just now. Or the bitter farangs... "oh noes the Thais hate us"... well don't say "us" including me, because I don't want any part in that. Be kind and your kindness will be returned. I am not a religious person, it's just something that I have seen work over and over again.

Needless to say, I completely agree with the OP. But actually, not just in bad times. At any time.

Spot on. It looks like you've been here too long, as well.

[nikster]

I have been here a long time, but if the result of that is that I'm a bit more understanding and sympathetic, then that's a price I'm willing to pay.

It's also that attitude that you shall pay the lowest price humanly possible, as if that is the best way to live your life.

Does it give you happiness?

I mean I understand nobody wants to get taken in, ripped off, etc. But if you already know how low you can go, then paying a bit more is not getting ripped off. It's showing kindness.

[twofortheroad]

I have been here a long time, but if the result of that is that I'm a bit more understanding and sympathetic, then that's a price I'm willing to pay.

It's also that attitude that you shall pay the lowest price humanly possible, as if that is the best way to live your life.

Does it give you happiness?

I mean I understand nobody wants to get taken in, ripped off, etc. But if you already know how low you can go, then paying a bit more is not getting ripped off. It's showing kindness.

I think you missed my attempt at irony there. We're both in total agreement, making the same arguments.

Your previous post agreed with me!!

Edited June 9, 2010 by twofortheroad

[nikster]

I have been here a long time, but if the result of that is that I'm a bit more understanding and sympathetic, then that's a price I'm willing to pay.

It's also that attitude that you shall pay the lowest price humanly possible, as if that is the best way to live your life.

Does it give you happiness?

I mean I understand nobody wants to get taken in, ripped off, etc. But if you already know how low you can go, then paying a bit more is not getting ripped off. It's showing kindness.

I think you missed my attempt at irony there. We're both in total agreement, making the same arguments. 

Your previous post agreed with me!!

No, no, I do agree with you. I know you don't have this attitude I mentioned, but many others in this thread do. Sorry I messed up with the quotes...