Difficult Times In Chiang Mai

[twofortheroad]

Not at all, I will tip in most circumstances unless the service is bad. What I'm saying is that a lot of us westerners who are percieved as having stacks of baht are often no better off than their Thai neighbours.

I see. You were just stating the obvious. I thought you were  trying to be relevant. Sorry.

[jdinasia]

Hmmmm it is amazing that someone thinks that paying more than is fair/right/equitable is a good thing in ANY way. If the local price for the wallet you want is 300 baht and the tourist price is 400 baht then as a local you are a fool to pay 400. If the merchant is good, spread the word

If you know a place that is good, treats people well, offers value for money, has decent staff etc..... then frequent it more often. Tell your friends about it.

Patronage is a good way to tell people that you value what they do. Being patronising on the other hand is demeaning.

I always tip well if I tip (and I usually tip). I tip at places where tipping isn't required if the service is good. I don't overtip since tipping is ultimately my choice.

The plight of the vendor that cannot adjust to economic realities honestly isn't my problem. The idea behind this thread makes as much sense as hotels increasing prices when customers become more rare instead of offering better value for money to increase their own competitiveness. The business model that can't adjust to business realities is doomed anyways.

I am sure used book vendors when faced with fewer customers don't just hike up the prices. They might, in fact, put a bargain-bin out front just to generate interest. (I was thinking of Dasa Books in BKK for this and nobody locally People stop, look through the bins and look into the store. They enter or not but at least they slowed down and became a 'looker' instead of someone that just walked past without noticing.

[mcgriffith]

Probably the best suggestion is for the OP to reinvent himself.

What worked before- isn't working.

So he needs to sit down, figure all his assets and liabilities.

And create a new plan.

I don't know any SME in CM who is doing swimmingly well now.

(OK, during curfew Zoe's and Cafe Del Sol were cranking....probably big tea money).

The truth is, the bloom is off the rose, so to speak.

This protest thing has scared off a tremendous lot of tourists.

All the Chamber of Commerce booshwah and spin will not change the fact that as far as tourism is concerned, Thailand is damaged goods right now.

And it is low season to boot.

Not a good sequence of events.

I know all this is very politically incorrect to state- but we all know it is true.

Hunker down, possibly figure out something different to do, and create a new spin on your old business...and move on.

When the going gets tough, the tough get going.

And no, I will not tip more than my usual which is ordinarily quite generous.

But maybe I'll stop by for an Apfelschnaps.

[jdinasia]

Probably the best suggestion is for the OP to reinvent himself.

What worked before- isn't working.

So he needs to sit down, figure all his assets and liabilities.

And create a new plan.

I don't know any SME in CM who is doing swimmingly well now.

(OK, during curfew Zoe's and Cafe Del Sol were cranking....probably big tea money).

The truth is, the bloom is off the rose, so to speak.

This protest thing has scared off a tremendous lot of tourists.

All the Chamber of Commerce booshwah and spin will not change the fact that as far as tourism is concerned, Thailand is damaged goods right now.

And it is low season to boot.

Not a good sequence of events.

I know all this is very politically incorrect to state- but we all know it is true.

Hunker down, possibly figure out something different to do, and create a new spin on your old business...and move on.

When the going gets tough, the tough get going.

And no, I will not tip more than my usual which is ordinarily quite generous.

But maybe I'll stop by for an Apfelschnaps.

The OP is a business owner? --- geeze I guess I should read the threads more closely!

In that case feel free to just ignore my posts because in light of that missing bit of info I would have written something quite different!

[kudroz]

I want to be careful jumping into this conversation because I have been through many different emotions reading all of the posts.

I was having lunch today at The Chedi. The restaurant is often quiet at lunch hour and I enjoyed a nice lunch with my wife and a nice view. The service was quite good and I left a small tip (50 baht) in addition to the service charge on the bill. When I'm out for cheap sushi at Fuji, I will not tip because there is already a service charge on the bill and I find the service average.

I am also aware of how much I should be paying according to my social status. You may be unaware of this, but to hagggle the price to the lowest level would be unbecoming to a person of my standing. That may not apply to you, so don't worry too much if you don't understand it.

Maybe it's because I'm still young but I don't get this social status thing. I respect people based on their contributions to society, their intelligence and wisdom - not based on their job tile, how big their house is or how much they pay for things! Furthermore, I don't think that contributions to society has to necessarily come from the wallet either. I have a big house, two cars and a full time maid and driver, yet - I don't consider myself a "high-so" and don't think anyone's social status should affect the price they pay for things. Goods and services should be priced the same for everyone regardless if they are tourists, expats, locals or "high-so". This idea of "pay more" doesn't ring well with me and I can't really put the finger on why exactly.

Maybe it's because I have been bit too many times by unfair double pricing, scams and extortions by police enforcement or having to break the law to work from Thailand because the government keeps blocking websites that my staff and I need to use for our work. I tried to do something about it but I'm quickly reminded that I'm a guest in this country and shouldn't voice my disagreements as it would be disrespectful coming from a "foreigner". I have invested relatively large sums of money here and employed dozens of people. I also married a Thai national and pay my taxes here. Yes, maybe I'm bitter; at least I'm honest. The only way I feel I can voice my disagreement with the whole situation is to either move myself and my business out of Thailand and/or certainly not pay more.

Thailand is at a crossroad. Rural Thailand have the votes to elect their government but Bangkok, who generates 75% of Thailand's GDP, is ideologically opposed to rural Thailand views. I will not get into the royalty situation - but you all know what's brewing as well. Things turned to <deleted> for everyone and tourism seems to suffer as the country is shaken up waiting to see how the situation unfolds.

Many people will have to reinvent themselves and maybe that's what I want to see. Until then I will not pay more because I am not content with how things are here - or maybe I just need a holiday.

Edited June 9, 2010 by kudroz

[highonthai]

Could it be that there are way too many tourist related business's?

As I see it, there were never enough tourists to support the current business's let alone the new start ups.

I don't think that Chiang Mai needs anymore Bars, hotels, guesthouses,resturants, tour guides, or fish spas!

With every new tourist related business that pops up it just going to delute the customer base for the exsisting ones.

As for tipping, I tip when appropriate.

[kudroz]

Patronage is a good way to tell people that you value what they do. Being patronising on the other hand is demeaning.

Thank you for posting that, I think it represents well what I think and I couldn't find the words to explain it. I feel that certain people often take pleasure leaving large tips because it gives them a sense of superiority, of being of a different class or just bluntly to get some face and feel important. Those who are genuinely giving large tips for pure philanthropic reasons - well you are better than me.

[mcgriffith]

Very well spoken, kudroz (and I appreciate your tact and discretion when voicing on certain issues).

Tourism is about 6% of GDP. But it employs 100's of thousands of low income workers, so it has a certain political sensitivity here.

For the farang business owners who are dependent on tourism...very difficult situation.

They don't have the family support network, and the long term view of things....it's often about maintaining the lifestyle, in the here and now.

I had a small retail business years ago...24/7 work, and major stress. Wouldn't wish the grief on anyone, not my worst enemy.

I hope it all works out for the best for the folks who are having a tough time now.

[cmdream]

Patronage is a good way to tell people that you value what they do. Being patronising on the other hand is demeaning.

Thank you for posting that, I think it represents well what I think and I couldn't find the words to explain it. I feel that certain people often take pleasure leaving large tips because it gives them a sense of superiority, of being of a different class or just bluntly to get some face and feel important. Those who are genuinely giving large tips for pure philanthropic reasons - well you are better than me.

I see no post about leaving LARGE tips. I feel you are exposing your own inferiority.

[kudroz]

Patronage is a good way to tell people that you value what they do. Being patronising on the other hand is demeaning.

Thank you for posting that, I think it represents well what I think and I couldn't find the words to explain it. I feel that certain people often take pleasure leaving large tips because it gives them a sense of superiority, of being of a different class or just bluntly to get some face and feel important. Those who are genuinely giving large tips for pure philanthropic reasons - well you are better than me.

I see no post about leaving LARGE tips. I feel you are exposing your own inferiority.

Well, isn't it the point of the OP to leave larger tips?

[cmdream]

Patronage is a good way to tell people that you value what they do. Being patronising on the other hand is demeaning.

Thank you for posting that, I think it represents well what I think and I couldn't find the words to explain it. I feel that certain people often take pleasure leaving large tips because it gives them a sense of superiority, of being of a different class or just bluntly to get some face and feel important. Those who are genuinely giving large tips for pure philanthropic reasons - well you are better than me.

I see no post about leaving LARGE tips. I feel you are exposing your own inferiority.

Well, isn't it the point of the OP to leave larger tips?

Not at all, I guess you missed his point. If someone has to explain to you the message you are beyond help.

[kudroz]

Well, isn't it the point of the OP to leave larger tips?

Not at all, I guess you missed his point. If someone has to explain to you the message you are beyond help.

Why are you being so unpleasant? What I understand from the OP's post is to pay more; being charitable to help those struggling from the drop in tourism caused by the recent events. He even suggested being more generous with tips in his original post - thus my post on larger tips.

Edited June 9, 2010 by kudroz

[getgoin]

Although the thread has gone its merry way and now seems to be about social status and tipping I don't think that the original post was about those points, although they both were mentioned. When times get tough and the economy gets slow the best thing for anyone to do is spend more. This is what speeds up any recovery.

I have long said that if the Night Bazaar wasn't such an outdated tourist trap that when the hoards of tourists left the locals would be glad to patronize the numerous bargain shops and the trendy restaurants. Needless to say that you will find neither there although there are some exceptions.

The same thing goes for the over priced trekking, elephant rides, orchid farms and zip lines that dot the countryside and the 1000 boutique hotels and the 10,000 spas. Maybe Chiang Mai needed a good old fashioned juvenile riot to rid itself of the massive amount of tourist related stench that has accumulated over the past 20 or so years? When the dust clears and it is not yet close to clearing maybe we will find out. (There will be 1 less Italian restaurant in town.)

In the meantime the suggestion was for everyone to get out, have a good time and spend some money.

[twofortheroad]

Probably the best suggestion is for the OP to reinvent himself.

What worked before- isn't working.

So he needs to sit down, figure all his assets and liabilities.

And create a new plan.

I think you may have mis-read my post. I was referring to waiters/waitresses in places that I frequent and small traders in places like the Night Bazaar.

You're not as far off the point as many other posters are. All I was suggesting was leaving a little bit more of a tip in the places that are obviously struggling. Not helping the owner (other than being a customer) but helping in a small way the lower-paid staff for whom small tips make a big difference. No hint of 'throwing money around', just a little bit of sympathy and kindness for the small folk that are feeling the pinch more than most. Admirable people, invariably.

Similarly, I was referring to the small store-owners who make little gains in the high season who are now struggling to sell anything. I know a lot of you see them as vultures, but the majority of traders in the Night Bazaar or Walking Street, for example, make very small profits - there is so much competition. They are mostly just trying to make a little bit extra to supplement their meagre salaries and try to get ahead. Some have good business, but the majority struggle. My suggestion was to not haggle them down to leave a bare bones of profit. Again, I see them as good, honest down-to-earth folk. Diamonds some of them.

Here's an example of what I mean. Let's say they normally sell a shirt for 180, and start off asking for 300 (why not?), and let's assume it cost 80. In good times 150 is their last price, however because they haven't sold anything for two days, they may be desperate and now sell it for 120. That won't be enough to pay rents and stuff but maybe they think it's better than nothing. All I was suggesting was to pay the 150 or 180 which is a fair price for them and you. And don't forget, they are not struggling because of their bad business plan they are struggling because of events beyond their control. Business may well bounce back in 5-6 months time so in the meantime they need to ride out the storm. If you'd like to help them in a small way, that was my suggestion. If you go along with it - good for you, if you don't - fine.

Obviously, the people that see everyone as being out to exploit and rip-them-off and anywhere that charges more than 50baht for a Large Leo as a 'tourist trap*' , this wasn't aimed at you. You're beyond help.

The suggestion that this is in any way patronising ......... what can I say?

What about a song?

'"You left your heart, in San Francisco**

High on a hill ........."

Anyway, let's hope that put's this topic to bed, which is where I'm headed. Good Night.

* I love that term.

**Or London, or Amsterdam, or wherever you came from.

Edited June 9, 2010 by twofortheroad

[cmdream]

Although the thread has gone its merry way and now seems to be about social status and tipping I don't think that the original post was about those points, although they both were mentioned. When times get tough and the economy gets slow the best thing for anyone to do is spend more. This is what speeds up any recovery.

I have long said that if the Night Bazaar wasn't such an outdated tourist trap that when the hoards of tourists left the locals would be glad to patronize the numerous bargain shops and the trendy restaurants. Needless to say that you will find neither there although there are some exceptions.

The same thing goes for the over priced trekking, elephant rides, orchid farms and zip lines that dot the countryside and the 1000 boutique hotels and the 10,000 spas. Maybe Chiang Mai needed a good old fashioned juvenile riot to rid itself of the massive amount of tourist related stench that has accumulated over the past 20 or so years? When the dust clears and it is not yet close to clearing maybe we will find out. (There will be 1 less Italian restaurant in town.)

In the meantime the suggestion was for everyone to get out, have a good time and spend some money.

You are pretty much on target with this thread for the few or many expats reading here. The thread was not directed at the tourist trade. We who now call CM our home have to contribute to our community. We will always feel like outsiders that is a given. We stand out in a crowd. Don't forget those 7 deadly sins, Pride being # 1. if you can get over your nationalistic PRIDE which means nothing in this country to the locals, you will enjoy a better life here. It takes a lot of time and frustrating experience to get over what we have learned. We enjoy a more relaxed and friendly life in CM. It is the Thai people we meet everyday that reinforces our decision to live here. If I can help them in any way I will. The average Thai is not out to rip you off. Stay away from the tourist traps and you will get to know the real Thailand.

[slapout]

As a creature of habit, I spend most of my time/money in the same places as before the so called crash/crunch. My personal spending habits are fairly consistent, depending on the exchange rate, to some degree. The rest of the family (3 female) would appear to keep a more diversified sector stimulated thru spending and tips, etc. I have noticed, the few times I accompany the economic simulators that increased prices for food, goods, etc seem to result in less tip money being left. In fact, the hired help at a local establishment said their tips went down after a recent price increase. Has anyone else observed this?

[jackr]

Your an Englishman, that says a lot. You are forgiven

Can you take your prejudice elsewhere. <deleted> are you from btw? Nevermind, I think I can guess.

On the thread; it's a shame George never capped off the TV membership as it seems to be getting dragged down by twaddle.

[Ulysses G.]

Your an Englishman, that says a lot. You are forgiven

I would imagine that you are just kidding around, but one thing that I have learned is that every single country has both good people and dipsh_ts including my own. Anonymouse is one of the good guys and there are plenty more where he came from.

[inthepink]

Paternalism is NOT the way to help Thais. That's how they got into the problem in the first place - too many farangs giving too much for goods and services means more and more Thai businesses want more and more - then when the tourists stop coming, we should give even more charity? Stop treating Thais like children and they will stop treating farangs like mummies and daddies. All this goody goody patronising makes me sick.

Being a little less stingy isn't paternalism. Do you think your brave act of being a tight-ass is going to teach Thailand... anything? I think a lot of you guys are deathly afraid of being taken advantage of. Get over yourselves.

If you can demonstrate your intelligence and wit by paying the absolute minimum, you could demonstrate your wisdom by paying a bit more. The sums involved are so small I doubt it would make a material difference for most of us. If you can afford the restaurant, you can afford the tip. If you can afford the stuff you're buying, you can afford not haggling down to the bare minimum.

When a pensioners pension has been reduced by a third or more by exchange rate differences, bank failures or investment crashes and then if asking a Thai shop keeper/tuk tuk driver/landlord etc to reduce his prices so that the pensioner can afford to stay here and he agrees then I will agree with you. Let's face it, none of us will teach Thais anything except how to live off farangs (referring to the businesses the OP refers to). If you really want to throw your cash around and help someone - go out into the countryside and give some of the Thai farmers some of your dosh - they are the ones keeping this country afloat for a pittance - not the ones leaching off tourists. Get a brain.

How do you work that out? As far as I can recall agriculture accounts for around 8% or less of GDP in Thailand.

Edited June 10, 2010 by inthepink

[cmsally]

Well, isn't it the point of the OP to leave larger tips?

Not at all, I guess you missed his point. If someone has to explain to you the message you are beyond help.

Why are you being so unpleasant? What I understand from the OP's post is to pay more; being charitable to help those struggling from the drop in tourism caused by the recent events. He even suggested being more generous with tips in his original post - thus my post on larger tips.

I understood the same as Kudroz. There were 2 factors in the OP. One was paying larger tips because of the downturn and one was paying more for goods in the Night Bazaar.

I don't agree that wealthier Thais pay more for services and goods than poorer Thais do, that is simply not true. Wealthier Thais will tip better in restaurants and hotels and for actual service such as delivery etc. They don't pay more for goods in a shop, wholesaler, builder etc.

I don't see though why people should be giving extra tips because of the bad economy, but that is all relevant I suppose as to how much you tip in general. It can also be a double edged sword in that some employees expect tips from everyone and don't understand that it is related to service and that some people just won't tip whatever.

As to paying more in the Night Bazaar; I would say that trading in the Night Bazaar with the numbers of traders is pretty much unsustainable even in high season.

Compared to 10-20 years ago there are simply too many people selling and not enough people buying. The majority of Night Bazaar people have been kept afloat not by the tourist buying one object but those coming in and buying wholesale. Those people now have much more choice due to the evolution of the day market, Sunday market etc etc

That is where most of their money is going. With the rents there they simply can't compete.

Although one may feel altruistic paying a hundred Baht more than the price, a raise in price will send away the person who would be coming to order 10-20k BTs worth.

Then of course the end game is paying those rents they simply can't compete.

[Insight]

Can't LCM51 chip in a bit? Don't want to point fingers or anything....

 If you were trying to be vague, you were very successful.

what does it mean? Who is LCM51, your big brother? Don't you have an opinion? Can't you give us some Insight?

LCM51 = Love Chiang Mai 51 = A Chiang Mai red shirt faction with violent and homophobic tenancies. Thought most people in Chiang Mai were aware of them.

[anonymouse]

Your an Englishman, that says a lot. You are forgiven

I would imagine that you are just kidding around, but one thing that I have learned is that every single country has both good people and dipsh_ts including my own. Anonymouse is one of the good guys and there are plenty more where he came from.

Thanks UG and thanks Jack R, totally in agreement, at the end of the day some bloke coming on here and telling me to start tipping more I found slightly patronising.

I'll carry on tipping my usual amounts and rejoice in the fact that some of the dead wood business's will fold in the current climate.