Thai Mother Of 2Yr Old Uk Passport Holder

[bobrussell]

My sister in law is married to a UK citzen and has a Thai daughter and his 2yr old child. They came to the UK last year, my sister-in-law on a spouse visa. The move from Thailand was originally supposed to be because her husband could no longer get work there. I had grave misgivings at the time which unfortunately appear to have been well founded.

The real purpose was to get his daughter into the UK, Wife and stepdaughter are now unimportant. He is a waste of space and has just been sacked from his job of a few weeks for fiddling his timesheet! Their daughter's UK passport has gone missing! He is barely competent to look after himself in a responsible manner let alone a 2yr old child without her mother being there all the time.

I am unclear what happens next! Nothing has been reported to the authorities yet but if they seperate this will obviously have great impact on the immigration status of my sister-in-law and her older daughter.

I realise this is more a marriage guidance issue and one for the solicitors but I would appreciate comments especially from anyone that has faced similar issues.

He is not violent but has controlled every aspect of their life in a manner I would consider abusive. My sister in law is therefore not likely to qualify as a victim of domestic violence.

[7by7]

Unfortunately, unless she can prove domestic violence, then it is unlikely that she and her daughter will get ILR without his assistance. In which case they will have to leave when their current LTR expires.

However, he cannot deny her access to her other daughter without some sort of court order, and it may be that she could be allowed to remain in the UK in order to access her; but only if he had custody, I think. I'm fairly certain that if they separated and she had custody than this would not give her a reason to stay in the UK as she could, of course, take the child back to Thailand with her.

There was a longish topic on this last year, but I can't find it.

I think that she really needs to talk to the CAB or a professional.

[the scouser]

Domestic violence can be of a psychological nature as well as physical, but the facts and case would need proper preparation. Your sister-in-law could also seek permission to stay in the UK on the basis of access to the 2-year-old child. That the child's British passport has gone astray does not remove her "Britishness".

If things are as you describe, then your sister-in-law and her husband could separate, she could initiate a county court action for a residence/contact order in relation to their daughter and seek permission to stay on that basis. Her elder daughter should then be given leave in line with the mother.

Scouse.

[bobrussell]

I am afraid that long post last year was mine. I had suspicions that this was going to happen. On this occasion I wish I had been wrong but I felt (and feel) they would have been better off in Thailand. The major issue is that if my sister in law has to return to Thailand there will be a major custody issue and her father is totally unsuitable as a parent but this will have to be proved. Fortunately he does have very good 'normal' family willing to help but this could still involve forced seperation of mother and daughter.

This is a man that has controlled every penny leaving my sister in law with no money to buy food for the family. He is a gambler and this habit has surfaced again. He ate my nieces Easter eggs and has raided food from their school lunch boxes!! Not a normal form of behaviour I think.

I will try to arrange CAB appointments but they do not live close to us.

Thanks for the very informed and sensible responses. This forum may end up being somewhere for me to vent my frustrations about a situation I have little control over!!!!!

[bobrussell]

Once again having to activate this topic again I am afraid. It seems that the marriage of my sister in law is very likely to end in divorce as her husbands behaviour has become even more erratic since his elderly mother (who was the moderating influence!) died - he is not violent towards her but I cannot see how they can continue to live in the same house. I cannot see it being possible to use the violent spouse card! He is a very odd individual indeed - doing well on benefits sitting in front of Sky TV all day!!! no wonder my tax bill is so high.

The previous helpful advice seems to be the way forward - he should get 'custody' and she should apply for a visa as the parent of a child resident in the UK.

I am a little worried by the following:

" there will be adequate accommodation for you (and any dependants) without recourse to public funds in accommodation which you own or occupy exclusively."

If they separate and divorce we will probably get my sister-in-law to stay with us in the short to medium term and obviously she will have her own room but not her own property at this stage. I cannot see why this should be a problem for us but is it likely to be a problem for the authorities?

[7by7]

From MAA12 Legally owned or exclusively occupied

If the accommodation is not owned by the couple (or one of them), the Rules require that there be adequate accommodation which is for their exclusive use. This need not be as elaborate as a self-contained flat. It is acceptable for a couple to live in an existing household, e.g. that of a parent, uncle, aunt, sibling or friend, as long as they have at least a bedroom for their exclusive use

(My emphasis)

Obviously this applies to a single applicant as well as a couple.

[bobrussell]

From MAA12 Legally owned or exclusively occupied

If the accommodation is not owned by the couple (or one of them), the Rules require that there be adequate accommodation which is for their exclusive use. This need not be as elaborate as a self-contained flat. It is acceptable for a couple to live in an existing household, e.g. that of a parent, uncle, aunt, sibling or friend, as long as they have at least a bedroom for their exclusive use

(My emphasis)

Obviously this applies to a single applicant as well as a couple.

Many thanks! Fed up with the pair of them - they are behaving like children and need to get their priorities right as there are two real children involved. This at least gives us an option but as my mother used to say 'they need their heads banging together"!!

[bobrussell]

Once again resurrecting an old post of mine.

There has been a recent judgement in the European Court Of Justice that may have significant implications for some members. I have not taken legal advice but it appears that the court has determined (in very simplistic terms) that:

"Where a British citizen child or other EU citizen child is living in the United Kingdom and needs to have their foreign national parent living in the United Kingdom with them for the child to be able to stay in the UK, then that parent or parents has a right under EU law to reside in the United Kingdom.

Where the parent needs to work to support the child, then that parent has a right under EU law to work in the United Kingdom.

This applies regardless of whether the child has lived elsewhere in the EU.

This case may also gives rights of residence and to work to other family members of British and other EU citizens, such as spouses, children and siblings."

A Thai mother with a child with EU citizenship may therefore almost automatically qualify for discretionary leave to remain on the grounds that a child cannot be deprived of access to one or both parents.

This is relevant to my extended family as the marriage of my wife's sister is in the process of collapse!!

It appears that this is based not on an individuals human rights but Union citizenship is now sufficient. There is no requirement for abuse etc to be involved in the break up of a marriage.

It will be interesting to see how the Home Office and UKBA deal with this! It may lead to further toughening of the approach to settlement visa applications. It is potentially very relevant to those with a Thai spouse and children with EU passports.

I am not legally qualified so would be interested in the opinions of those with more experience.

Details can be found if you google Zambano v's ONEm Case C-34/0. This has been mentioned on another thread on this site so thanks for whoever posted the link!

[bellboy86]

Christ mate, it sounds difficult. I myself was a gambler. However didn't have that kind of behaviour always made sure everyone was provided for but still had a major gambling problemNOT NOW I now attend gamblers anonymous which has been amazing it's allowed me to change my ways and take a good look at myself, maybe you could suggest he go to gamblers anonymous if you want I can give you my no for a chat, you can search the Internet for local meetings and theres also meetings for family members good luck. We are here to help even my mrs could talk to your sister I'n law to let her know she's not alone.

[bobrussell]

Christ mate, it sounds difficult. I myself was a gambler. However didn't have that kind of behaviour always made sure everyone was provided for but still had a major gambling problemNOT NOW I now attend gamblers anonymous which has been amazing it's allowed me to change my ways and take a good look at myself, maybe you could suggest he go to gamblers anonymous if you want I can give you my no for a chat, you can search the Internet for local meetings and theres also meetings for family members good luck. We are here to help even my mrs could talk to your sister I'n law to let her know she's not alone.

Gamblers anon are for those who want to get better. He 'cannot deal with it because of everything that is going on' - not so impressive. It has been suggested. Thanks for the recommendation anyway - and all the best with getting life under some control!

[7by7]

Details can be found if you google Zambano v's ONEm Case C-34/0. This has been mentioned on another thread on this site so thanks for whoever posted the link!

This is that link; thanks to the scouser who originally provided it.

The reporter from Free Movement says

Have a look at the judgment yourself and see if you agree with my reading. Comments very welcome indeed. I’m having difficulty believing this reading is correct

so I reckon it's not all cut and dried yet.

Although it would be good news for a friend of ours if it did become that simple for the non British parent of a British child!

[bobrussell]

I am quite sure this is not as cut and dried as it seems. I doubt the UK government will take this lying down as they seem so rabidly anti-immigration.

I am anti-illegal immigration and abuse of the system but genuine cases tend to be grouped with the dubious ones. The difficulty in our case is that the level of proof of emotional abuse is going to be fairly low as everything happens behind closed doors and there are no marks left. my sister-in-law is just so pleased to be out of the situation that she is preferring to bury her head in the sand and hope the UKBA will go away! I suspect it will until her visa comes to its end. I am keeping the pressure on to stop everyone ignoring the future while they get on with life!

This judgement does seem to offer protection for a child with an EU passport to enjoy life in the EU with its parent(s). This seems good sense to me. I cannot see the courts awarding custody of a child to an older, gambling addicted father in preference to a good, loving mother but the law doesn't always make sense!