Thailand-Based CNN, BBC Correspondents Defend Red-Shirts Coverage

[TAWP]

Maybe there should be an auto-ignore on ppl that recently joined...

[hansum]

What i dont get is how with these people have the nerve to criticise CNN when the lack of free speech in Thailand created by their beloved present govt.

Some well to do Thais that were round my place the other week would watch CNN due to their reporting.

What i dont get is how with these people have the nerve to criticise CNN when the lack of free speech in Thailand created by their beloved present govt. before any protests started is up there with China, Cuba, Iran etc... yet they dont mention this ... asses brains their up.

My view on it is the reporters were just reporting on which way the bullets were flying .. and pretty much all of them were heading towards the redshirts.

Posts like this drive me up the wall, trying to defend the red shirt action, declare that

the lies and deceptions strewn by an array of PR and Media crews of the red clowns army

and their puppet master are the truth, and nothing but the truth today even it is so obvious!

twisted brains = twisted thruth's = deceptive lies and mind boggling constructions which only have one aim = bring back the master and let the game begin!

Censored are the lies, deceptions and constructions which aim to destroy this Nation, it's legal and rightful government and anyone who is not in favor of the Master...!

This is the "TRUTH TODAY"!

I can access

any media I wish to.... the last stand off in Bangkok, with the Grenade Attacks, random shootings, the looting and setting numerous places in the very center of Bangkok ablaze, carries it's very own signature.....

It is nothing but a load of BS and aimed to deceit the people, make them believe that there is "something wrong".... and in turn white wash the Master's grand coups and those committed by his his followers - it's simply evil!

This person is clearly in hysterical mode so perhaps one shouldn't take his barely literate ranting seriously.One telling phrase is at the end when he appears appalled that anyone should think there's "something wrong", presumably with the status quo and is clearly angry that any news outlet should give the impression there's "something wrong" with the Good Ship Siam.Perhaps we can just ignore his ignorant tripe and move on to a more considered assessment of the press coverage.But here's a parting word for this genius.Yes, there is something "very wrong" indeed with Thailand, chum.

Clearly however there has been bias in both CNN and BBC coverage, as well as the rest of the foreign and local press.Khun Somtow has some interesting thoughts particularly on the foreign press briefly that some may be seeing the events here through a Western prism, perceiving the Reds simplistically as the poor downtrodden struggling against the privileged elite.He has a point.This is a very complex set of events and it's important not to draw simple minded conclusions.But overall I think it has been possible to be informed, while accepting there has been some crass and stupid reporting from both foreign and local press.I'm not sure this is really that different from any other international crisis.I certainly don't buy the argument that the mysteries of Thai language and culture make rational analysis by a foreign reporter almost impossible.I think what gives the amart and some sections of the Bangkok middle class such annoyance is the fact that the unquestioning social deference of the past is crumbling, and is all open to international scrutiny.But all journalism is biased and one's reaction to a particular piece of journalism reflects one own biases.

Firstly Samuian where have i tried to defend the actions of the redshirts, what actions have i defended? come on you can explain ... clearly youve invented that then try to come across as intelligent ... go on mouthy internet man please explain.

Secondly ... im not a red shirt, yellow shirt or any other coloured shirt supporter i dont support any political party in Thailand as im English and dont wish to be Thai like yourselves ... quite clearly youve shown you back a certain party blindly, no matter what they do

Thirdly .. as ive now shown my original post was not coming from a political bias, i wish to add that i am 100% certain that supporters of all political parties in Thailand should be ashamed of the way the country is currently at in terms of free speech and open press aswell as blocking of internet sites ... and that they should spend their time doing something about this national disgrace ... as opposed to going on about bias of foreign media which from what i saw was and is far more impartial then any Thai media reporting in English.

On a sidenote Jayboy ... I see you wish to call everyone who doesnt agree with you uneducated .. (most in the west have gone to school until at least 16, does this not count? must one have a degree in some social science which most universities specialise in these days )

Edited June 17, 2010 by sabaijai
personal attacks and requests for private information deleted

[DWALDO]

Having watched much of the BBC coverage I would have to say that some of it was not particularly well researched but I trust it a lot more than the government run news stations. You do not get unbiased news from censored journalists who have to answer to a dictatorship.

In answer to the where's the proof, I notice that despite there apparently being so many armed protesters and so many local news reporters, there is not one photo of a corpse with a firearm in the vicinity.

I will continue to use the BBC as my source for independent news reporting, certainly ahead of the lies reported by the government controlled press in Thailand.

It is obvious from many of the posts on here that a lot people do very well out of the apartheid system that exists in Thailand. Keep the poor down, uneducated with health care that for the majority of Thais is disgraceful. The true fact is that the majority will vote out this government at the next election and the people who protested will be in power and then I'm afraid you'll have to pay your maid a little bit more.

[rixalex]

The airport was seized for almost TWO years ago.

Pray tell, what is your point?

[rixalex]

You do not get unbiased news from censored journalists who have to answer to a dictatorship.

I see. Thailand is living under a dictatorship is it? And you live here i suppose?

You do not get a sensible contribution to the discussion from those who distort, grossly exaggerate and flat out lie.

[rixalex]

The true fact is that the majority will vote out this government at the next election and the people who protested will be in power and then I'm afraid you'll have to pay your maid a little bit more.

You can predict a future event and call your prediction a fact? Impressive.

Are you aware of what the results were at the last elections held in Thailand?

[Neilly]

Protesters/Civilians Injured: 991

And this is while phil tries to infer that it is around 1800 - as I said, the red shirt history revisionism has already started. Twice the numbers today, 5 times the number by the end of the summer.

Just look back some week ago when one of them claimed the airport was seized for almost 1 year...mind-boggling.

The airport was seized for almost TWO years ago.

Think you either misread or missed the point

[jayboy]

On a sidenote Jayboy ... I see you wish to call everyone who doesnt agree with you uneducated .. (most in the west have gone to school until at least 16, does this not count? must one have a degree in some social science which most universities specialise in these days )

Now just so i know how intelligent you really are can you tell me to what outstanding level you are educated too, and also what exceptionally profitable company you run or which unreachable by the masses level of employment you are currently working in?

Not true I'm afraid.I am often wrong and will readily admit it.

On a forum like this many people pretend to be what they're not.However over time it becomess almost impossible to disguise nationality, social class, level of education, intelligence and general perception.

Edited June 17, 2010 by sabaijai
personal attacks deleted

[rixalex]

Please answer the question does being formally educated until 16 count as being educated? you must be aware that until recently it was only the minority in the UK who went to University, are you saying the people who didnt arent suitably educated to give an opinion.

And why are you afraid to clearly state your level of education, and current employment ... im taking youre not the high flyer you claim to be.

Where as my paypacket clearly shows i am in the top 1% of wage earners in the UK, so im obviously skilled in certain areas.

Now please ATFQ it shouldnt be too hard for someone of you undoubted genius.

Furthermore ive also clearly replied to my OP that you changed to suit your vile rant i see youve not replied to this, you're a silly little man who is only brave calling names behind a computer.

Neither earnings nor education are what i measure a man/woman by, most especially on an internet forum where everyone is simply whomever they claim to be.

[hansum]

Please answer the question does being formally educated until 16 count as being educated? you must be aware that until recently it was only the minority in the UK who went to University, are you saying the people who didnt arent suitably educated to give an opinion.

And why are you afraid to clearly state your level of education, and current employment ... im taking youre not the high flyer you claim to be.

Where as my paypacket clearly shows i am in the top 1% of wage earners in the UK, so im obviously skilled in certain areas.

Now please ATFQ it shouldnt be too hard for someone of you undoubted genius.

Furthermore ive also clearly replied to my OP that you changed to suit your vile rant i see youve not replied to this, you're a silly little man who is only brave calling names behind a computer.

Neither earnings nor education are what i measure a man/woman by, most especially on an internet forum where everyone is simply whomever they claim to be.

But the point is, after i wrote my comments about Thai's should be more concerned with free speech/press here, this fool starts name calling and coming out with his you must be uneducated line.

So im challenging him to answer whether someone who is educated until 16 (ive not stated my level he's just arrogantly presumed) is educated enough to challenge his superior in his own mind views, plus if he is so intelligent he must surely have reached the peak in his chosen profession, though he has clearly avoided answering these statements aswell as answering the statements that he agreed with inferering i somehow defend red shirt actions.

[rixalex]

Neither earnings nor education are what i measure a man/woman by, most especially on an internet forum where everyone is simply whomever they claim to be.

But the point is, after i wrote my comments about Thai's should be more concerned with free speech/press here, this fool starts name calling and coming out with his you must be uneducated line.

Jayboy name-calling? Doesn't sound like him. Snide lofty insinuations is much more his style.

So im challenging him to answer whether someone who is educated until 16 (ive not stated my level he's just arrogantly presumed) is educated enough to challenge his superior in his own mind views, plus if he is so intelligent he must surely have reached the peak in his chosen profession, though he has clearly avoided answering these statements aswell as answering the statements that he agreed with inferering i somehow defend red shirt actions.

Jayboy infering you defend red shirt actions? Certainly not him. You must be getting confused. Jayboy is himself an ardent red shirt defender.

[Samuian]

What i dont get is how with these people have the nerve to criticise CNN when the lack of free speech in Thailand created by their beloved present govt.

Some well to do Thais that were round my place the other week would watch CNN due to their reporting.

What i dont get is how with these people have the nerve to criticise CNN when the lack of free speech in Thailand created by their beloved present govt. before any protests started is up there with China, Cuba, Iran etc... yet they dont mention this ... asses brains their up.

My view on it is the reporters were just reporting on which way the bullets were flying .. and pretty much all of them were heading towards the redshirts.

Posts like this drive me up the wall, trying to defend the red shirt action, declare that

the lies and deceptions strewn by an array of PR and Media crews of the red clowns army

and their puppet master are the truth, and nothing but the truth today even it is so obvious!

twisted brains = twisted thruth's = deceptive lies and mind boggling constructions which only have one aim = bring back the master and let the game begin!

Censored are the lies, deceptions and constructions which aim to destroy this Nation, it's legal and rightful government and anyone who is not in favor of the Master...!

This is the "TRUTH TODAY"!

I can access

any media I wish to.... the last stand off in Bangkok, with the Grenade Attacks, random shootings, the looting and setting numerous places in the very center of Bangkok ablaze, carries it's very own signature.....

It is nothing but a load of BS and aimed to deceit the people, make them believe that there is "something wrong".... and in turn white wash the Master's grand coups and those committed by his his followers - it's simply evil!

This person is clearly in hysterical mode so perhaps one shouldn't take his barely literate ranting seriously.One telling phrase is at the end when he appears appalled that anyone should think there's "something wrong", presumably with the status quo and is clearly angry that any news outlet should give the impression there's "something wrong" with the Good Ship Siam.Perhaps we can just ignore his ignorant tripe and move on to a more considered assessment of the press coverage.But here's a parting word for this genius.Yes, there is something "very wrong" indeed with Thailand, chum.

Clearly however there has been bias in both CNN and BBC coverage, as well as the rest of the foreign and local press.Khun Somtow has some interesting thoughts particularly on the foreign press briefly that some may be seeing the events here through a Western prism, perceiving the Reds simplistically as the poor downtrodden struggling against the privileged elite.He has a point.This is a very complex set of events and it's important not to draw simple minded conclusions.But overall I think it has been possible to be informed, while accepting there has been some crass and stupid reporting from both foreign and local press.I'm not sure this is really that different from any other international crisis.I certainly don't buy the argument that the mysteries of Thai language and culture make rational analysis by a foreign reporter almost impossible.I think what gives the amart and some sections of the Bangkok middle class such annoyance is the fact that the unquestioning social deference of the past is crumbling, and is all open to international scrutiny.But all journalism is biased and one's reaction to a particular piece of journalism reflects one own biases.

You trying to be a toughboy keyboard warrior?

Firstly Samuian where have i tried to defend the actions of the redshirts, what actions have i defended? come on you can explain ... clearly youve invented that then try to come across as intelligent ... go on mouthy internet man please explain.

Secondly ... im not a red shirt, yellow shirt or any other coloured shirt supporter i dont support any political party in Thailand as im English and dont wish to be Thai like yourselves ... quite clearly youve shown you back a certain party blindly, no matter what they do

Thirdly .. as ive now shown my original post was not coming from a political bias, i wish to add that i am 100% certain that supporters of all political parties in Thailand should be ashamed of the way the country is currently at in terms of free speech and open press aswell as blocking of internet sites ... and that they should spend their time doing something about this national disgrace ... as opposed to going on about bias of foreign media which from what i saw was and is far more impartial then any Thai media reporting in English.

On a sidenote Jayboy ... I see you wish to call everyone who doesnt agree with you uneducated .. (most in the west have gone to school until at least 16, does this not count? must one have a degree in some social science which most universities specialise in these days )

Now just so i know how intelligent you really are can you tell me to what outstanding level you are educated too, and also what exceptionally profitable company you run or which unreachable by the masses level of employment you are currently working in?

hansum: Are we trolling again? - How long did it take you to push up your post count this wee bit?

Free speech isn't a ticket for hatred, for disregard against certain authorities and certainly not a freed ticket to incite violence, tell lies and spread deceitful "information"!

This will be controlled by ANY government, in any country on this planet and it might be considered it's duty to protect the inner peace and the wellbeing of a entire Nation of 60 Million people they are in charge of, not just a few thousands!

Just think about it all - it's rather complex - I agree - but not too complex to get a fair grip on what the red shirt movement was FINALLY all about - the Bank accounts... the movements of money all instigated by the "present government"?

Edited June 17, 2010 by Samuian

[sabaijai]

^^Well luckily for him, Andy is not an international news agency with its head up its arse. So his credibility isn't really much of an issue. You don't consult him for your news, and surely you don't imagine whatever he says must be factually correct? He gives his opinion. The Beeb are supposed to provide news reporting.

Then you flame him. Nice

He was quite clear that the BBC was distorting the position.His alternative was fatuous and wrongheaded, and by definition his original assessment of the BBC's coverage became suspect.I don't think it's a flame to point out a home truth.

I accept there are many in the "expatriate community" who think the same way.

Instead of saying an argument is 'fat-headed,' 'presumptuous,' 'dubious,' etc, how about demonstrating in what way these adjectives apply. Otherwise it's just more ad hominem.

Same goes for other posters. If you can't build an argument for why someone else's analysis or opinion is incorrect, don't bother posting as the you're just wasting space. Posts of this kind will be deleted.

[philw]

Protesters/Civilians Injured: 991

And this is while phil tries to infer that it is around 1800 - as I said, the red shirt history revisionism has already started. Twice the numbers today, 5 times the number by the end of the summer.

Just look back some week ago when one of them claimed the airport was seized for almost 1 year...mind-boggling.

Refer you to para 6 ( i think ) of editorial in todays other English paper. ( can you read ?? )

Your veiled insults are pathetic, by the way.

Actually not worthy of response.

ph

[Rucharee]

The only difference is:

Farang media is here to make money (more subscription, more ads, etc).

Government media is here to tell the truth (to keep the nation informed).

[BNZ]

On a sidenote Jayboy ... I see you wish to call everyone who doesnt agree with you uneducated .. (most in the west have gone to school until at least 16, does this not count? must one have a degree in some social science which most universities specialise in these days )

Now just so i know how intelligent you really are can you tell me to what outstanding level you are educated too, and also what exceptionally profitable company you run or which unreachable by the masses level of employment you are currently working in?

Not true I'm afraid.I am often wrong and will readily admit it.

On a forum like this many people pretend to be what they're not.However over time it becomess almost impossible to disguise nationality, social class, level of education, intelligence and general perception.

" jayboy, on 2010-06-17 08:39, said:

I daresay there were those back in Derry in 1972 who were ranting in the same vicious or ignorant way about the Bogside marchers.

Whether Abhisit has the courage and decency of Cameron one somehow doubts to own up.

Nearly 80 unarmed civilians are dead. "

___________________________________

I am disappointed that the proof for this statement has not been forthcoming ..and as stated above..  

"...I am often wrong and will readily admit it."

..the poster will be only too eager to "admit " publishing an untruth to display some ethics on these forums.

Most Sincerely

BNZ 

[jayboy]

I am disappointed that the proof for this statement has not been forthcoming

If you can clarify the question you would like me to answer I will do my best to respond.

[BNZ]

 

I daresay there were those back in Derry in 1972 who were ranting in the same vicious or ignorant way about the Bogside marchers.

Whether Abhisit has the courage and decency of Cameron one somehow doubts to own up.

Nearly 80 unarmed civilians are dead.

Broadly speaking the BBC got it right.The ignorant and prejudiced hate the truth.

" Nearly 80 unarmed civilians are dead."

80 Unarmed civilians ?

Please post your 'proof' here so that the world media and especially the Thai Govt and the Red Shirts can 

access it as it will be necessary for their investigations.

As you requested,  for clarity.

  

[waza]

I daresay there were those back in Derry in 1972 who were ranting in the same vicious or ignorant way about the Bogside marchers.

Whether Abhisit has the courage and decency of Cameron one somehow doubts to own up.

Nearly 80 unarmed civilians are dead.

Broadly speaking the BBC got it right.The ignorant and prejudiced hate the truth.

" Nearly 80 unarmed civilians are dead."

Wheresyour evidence for this? Please provide a link.

80 Unarmed civilians ?

Please post your 'proof' here so that the world media and especially the Thai Govt and the Red Shirts can

access it as it will be necessary for their investigations.

As you requested, for clarity.

[mazeltov]

I daresay there were those back in Derry in 1972 who were ranting in the same vicious or ignorant way about the Bogside marchers.

Whether Abhisit has the courage and decency of Cameron one somehow doubts to own up.

Nearly 80 unarmed civilians are dead.

Broadly speaking the BBC got it right.The ignorant and prejudiced hate the truth.

" Nearly 80 unarmed civilians are dead."

Wheresyour evidence for this? Please provide a link.

80 Unarmed civilians ?

Please post your 'proof' here so that the world media and especially the Thai Govt and the Red Shirts can

access it as it will be necessary for their investigations.

As you requested, for clarity.

unarmed cilvilans, yes! and that according to nobody else but the Thai government.

the list of deaths

http://www.ems.bangkok.go.th/report/totaldead7-6-53.pdf

nine dead soldiers, seven of them who were probably armed. unarmed was Seh Daeng and air force sergeant Phongchalit Thipayanontakan who was killed on May 17 when trigger happy security forces open the fire on his car at a check point.

two dead police men, probably armed too.

all other death are civilians, kids, women,para medics, innocent bystanders, journalists, foreigners, red shirt protesters.

in some cases like the air force sergeant and that 10 years old boy, who also got killed in an unrelated but similar accident when trigger happy soldiers at a checkpoint open the fire on an approaching car, the government admit that the deadly bullets came form government forces.

All other death are totally unexplained and according to the government the result of a third party like the terrorists who killed this people. and terrorists kill innocent people, right?

The soldiers didn't shot to kill, according to the government. I didn't hear of a single case where the government announced that their snipers had to place a deadly shot to take out an armed terrorists.

[jayboy]

Please post your 'proof' here so that the world media and especially the Thai Govt and the Red Shirts can 

access it as it will be necessary for their investigations.

As you requested,  for clarity.

  

Sorry I wrongly presumed you were serious and posed a serious question.

[hammered]

Im not sure the Cameron/Abhisit comparison is so perfect. Cameron was a few decades after the fact and when it was nothing to do with his administration when most people didnt give a !@#$ while Abhisit is right now. Maybe a better comaprison would be Abhisit should copy the apology Thaksin gave for the few thousand unarmed civilains killed under his administration. Im just off to search for that apology as I know the red shirts are all about no double standards and wouldnt hold Abhisit to higher standard than any of their own.....

See you later when I find the link

[GarryP]

The only difference is:

Farang media is here to make money (more subscription, more ads, etc).

Government media is here to tell the truth (to keep the nation informed).

You have got to be kidding. I have still not made up my mind whether you are really a Thai or just someone pretending to be. Some of your posts seem to be intended to stir the pot and in others you seem to misunderstand what others are saying. Nevertheless, they are usually entertaining in one warped way or another.

"Government media is here to tell the truth". You are being sarcastic aren't you.

As to the OP, isn't this just another rehash of the whole kit and kaboodle ad nauseum.

[Robby nz]

Didnt watch either BBC or CNN as things were hapening but I did see some of their stuff online and it didnt seem to match what I was seeing on Thai Tele at the time.

Did read something else by a jurno who said they had to be very careful of what they said and filmed in the red camp as if they did the wrong thing they could have been either evicted, beaten up or killed.

Whether this can be used as some sort of excuse for only reporting what the reds wanted reported.......

If all the reds who are posting here want to get the red side they can go watch "Voice TV" owned by Thaksins son I believe, saw on it less than an hour ago video footage of the peaceful red stage declaring their honest intentions. If all red TV has been taken off air why has it been with us throughout? Not what the station or website is but the content that gets some banned.

Incidentaly I noticed an example of the reds attempt at censorship when they tried to burn down TV3 with all the people inside

[TAWP]

unarmed cilvilans, yes! and that according to nobody else but the Thai government.

the list of deaths

http://www.ems.bangkok.go.th/report/totaldead7-6-53.pdf

My Thai is a little bit rusty, but can you point out where it says 'unarmed innocent civilian' in that document?

[mazeltov]

unarmed cilvilans, yes! and that according to nobody else but the Thai government.

the list of deaths

http://www.ems.bangkok.go.th/report/totaldead7-6-53.pdf

My Thai is a little bit rusty, but can you point out where it says 'unarmed innocent civilian' in that document?

as far as i know, there are no detailed reports of armed civilians who got killed by government troops. the government declared these dead people were probably killed by terrorists. terrorists kill innocent people, that makes them to terrorists.

According to the government the soldiers didn't shot to kill, but only at legs, causing non deadly wounds. If you have any sources were the government admit that they killed armed terrorists or armed civilians please come forward with it.

[TAWP]

unarmed cilvilans, yes! and that according to nobody else but the Thai government.

the list of deaths

http://www.ems.bangkok.go.th/report/totaldead7-6-53.pdf

My Thai is a little bit rusty, but can you point out where it says 'unarmed innocent civilian' in that document?

as far as i know, there are no detailed reports of armed civilians who got killed by government troops. the government declared these dead people were probably killed by terrorists. terrorists kill innocent people, that makes them to terrorists.

According to the government the soldiers didn't shot to kill, but only at legs, causing non deadly wounds. If you have any sources were the government admit that they killed armed terrorists or armed civilians please come forward with it.

Your argument is that the government allegedly has claimed to have killed zero individuals, armed or non-armed, and the document that you linked, that wasn't a proof of anything, is therefor a proof that the people in the list was unarmed and innocent?

It all gets very confusing...

[mazeltov]

unarmed cilvilans, yes! and that according to nobody else but the Thai government.

the list of deaths

http://www.ems.bangkok.go.th/report/totaldead7-6-53.pdf

My Thai is a little bit rusty, but can you point out where it says 'unarmed innocent civilian' in that document?

as far as i know, there are no detailed reports of armed civilians who got killed by government troops. the government declared these dead people were probably killed by terrorists. terrorists kill innocent people, that makes them to terrorists.

According to the government the soldiers didn't shot to kill, but only at legs, causing non deadly wounds. If you have any sources were the government admit that they killed armed terrorists or armed civilians please come forward with it.

Your argument is that the government allegedly has claimed to have killed zero individuals, armed or non-armed, and the document that you linked, that wasn't a proof of anything, is therefor a proof that the people in the list was unarmed and innocent?

It all gets very confusing...

If you know better please share your information. if all these dead civilians were armed or the half of them or one third or ten or five, that would be a widely published fact or not? but there is no official claim, official statement that declares that these dead civilians were armed.

that they were armed, that would be the point that needs a proof.

to confusing for you?

[cdnvic]

You produced a document, not in English that does not prove your claim. So don't blame others for being confused.

[mazeltov]

You produced a document, not in English that does not prove your claim. So don't blame others for being confused.

ermm, civilians normally don't carry guns. someone who claims the opposite, 'armed civilians has the burden of proof. 'armed' means guilty, that needs evidence, a smoking gun, simple the fact that they were killed isn't evidence enough that they were culprits.

few days ago i posted an article from The Nation that could be considered as a proof for unarmed dead civilians,a young boy, a poor woman,junk collector, anonym people with no name and no claimants for the bodies. sad story. they where definitely unarmed. but that got deleted as 'tasteless'. meanwhile a false claim, that no children were killed and only one woman, remained at the board, people taken these false claims for true and approved will end up in confusion when they know nothing about the facts.

anyway, i thought it is widely known that the governments claims and explains that most of the civilians where killed by terrorists.

and so i argued that the dead civilians were indeed unarmed innocents.

totally unknown to me are any detailed reports and proofs for the claims the killed civilians were armed.

and please keep in mind that the question if the red shirts or their black shirts were armed or not is a different issue and not point of the argument here. this is about the dead civilians, were they armed or unarmed and how they died.

okay, for a recap i bring a few quotes from declaration and explanation by government and CRES officials.

"Who Really Killed the Red Shirts ?"

The True Facts Regarding the 10 April 2010 Incident

On Saturday, 10 April 2010, the Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES), resolved to reclaim areas occupied by red shirt demonstrators. The incident resulted in violent clashes between the military and armed demonstrators ending with 842 injuries and 24 fatalities on both sides. Video footage gathered from numerous news agencies (domestic and international) covering the incident clearly shows that

a group of armed terrorist militia from within the Red Shirt protesters instigated and provoked violence against the unarmed military. This group was heavily armed with high powered rifles and firearms, along with powerful explosives intent on targeting and firing on both the military and the demonstrators. The injuries and fatalities that resulted from the groups whose intention and actions can only be described as being premeditated terrorism with no regard for human life,

public, or private property.

www.capothai.org: "Who Really Killed the Red Shirts ?"

Press Briefing by Royal Thai Army Deputy Staff Command and Director General of the Department of Special Investigation (15/5/10):

At the latest count, there are 16 deaths and around 140 injured. He noted that these

deaths and injuries to civilians can occur from the following reasons.

First, it is possible

that Red Shirt guards could assault each other

due to internal conflicts. Secondly, due to the assault weapons in possession of the Red Shirt guards, who are known to have M79 grenade launders, assault rifles, hand grenades, and giant firecrackers. Third, the

general public affected by the protests may have taken matters into their own hands and assaulted the Red Shirt demonstrators

; there are eyewitness reports confirming this possibility. Fourth and finally, the firing of bullets are done under strict rules and instructions, to prevent further loss of life, or to target those who are clearly armed with weapons.

Soldiers are instructed to fire at knee level in order to minimize injuries and deaths.

Col Sansern also summarized the events of the past days, including an incident where

a local resident fired a weapon at the demonstrators

because he was angry that the tires being burnt would make the buildings in the area catch fire.

Lt Gen Daopong concluded the briefing session by expressing the hope that the public now has a better understanding of what the Army is doing, and what the armed group inside the Red Shirt camp is doing. He stressed that

all soldiers have no intention of killing or harming anyone,

but are only performing their duty, while always aware that the people involved are their fellow countrymen. The call by the Red Shirt leaders for the Army "to stop killing the people" is therefore a deliberate attempt to mislead the public that the Army views the people as its enemy.

www.capothai.org: Press Briefing by Royal Thai Army Deputy Staff Command and Director General of the Department of Special Investigation (15/5/10)

Press Briefing by CRES Spokesperson (2030 hrs 16/5/10):"

CRES wishes to state that the terrorists who are inside the demonstrations in Rajprasong area are creating incidents in order to confuse and mislead the public.

This has been picked up by the media including the internet.

The CRES needs to clarify and explain some of these incidents.

First of all,

the terrorists are causing incidents to create suspicion and misunderstand, by attacking the soldiers, the police, the public, and the press. All are targeted by the terrorists.

I have to urge the public to stay away from Rajprasong, because it is very dangerous. If you need to enter this area because you live or work there, please tell the authorities so they can provide security to you.

Our friends in the media also have to be careful. You should stay behind security lines. We can ensure your safety. ...

The second one is a video clip. This clearly shows a red shirt protester firing an M79, which can cause death and injury to the public or security personnel. In this one instance, the camera captured an M79 being fired. Yesterday M79 grenades were fired at police quarters causing several injuries, including children.

It is evident that the security forces have to take great precaution in dangerous areas.

The third one is also a video clip. This shows a terrorist attempting to light the fuel tank of a truck. He’s then shot in the foot, and then runs away to his friends for help.

This is also evidence that the security forces try to control their fire and shoot below the knee,

and that they try to avoid causing serious injury to any unarmed protester."

www.capothai.org: Press Briefing by CRES Spokesperson (2030 hrs 16/5/10)

CRES Press conference 17 May 2010 at 2030 hrs

CRES expresses its concerns on

the terrorists infiltrating inside the protesting area, trying to endanger lives of innocent protesters, innocent people, EMS teams and the press.

Reliable information received by CRES confirmed that today, there were 5-10 gunmen hiding inside the Chiva-Thai building , near Century Park Hotel, between floors 24-27.

Those

unidentified snipers will put both the military and innocent people’s lives in harm’s way, such as in the case of the singer, Kampan Basu, who was injured, possibly shot from the Chiva-Thai building.

Therefore, the CRES would like the public to avoid entering or passing through the area for their own safely, especially during the night time.

Apart from that, protesters were also attempting to destroy or damage public buildings and properties. We have also seen robberies of private businesses located in the Red Zone, which is the Ratchaprasong Intersection and its nearby roads.

It is indeed difficult for the terrorists to deny responsibility in these incidents, which occurred in their protesting areas, since none of the state security personnel is allowed in the area.

...

Slide 2.

This is a picture of a

gunman dressed in black with an M16 in his hand. This is to prove that

there is a group of gunmen using lethal weapons with the aim of harming innocent people, EMS teams, the press and security officers.

Slide 3.

The photo, taken 2-3 days ago, shows a military officer accompanied with a pistol who was trying to take back a military truck previously seized by the protesters.

While being surrounded by protesters, he carried a gun, but he decided not to use it against the people and let himself be beaten and injured by the protesters. This is to show that all military personnel always strictly follow the rules of engagement as instructed by CRES.

...

Some people are using the words

“the military is killing the people”, to mislead the public. This is definitely not true. The military are tasked only to cordon off the protest area and set up blockades, but not to do harm the people.

www.capothai.org: CRES Press conference 17 May 2010 at 2030 hrs

Deputy Staff Command press briefing 18 May 2010 at 2045 hrs

The security forces stationed around the protesting area have been , on daily basis, putting their lives in harm’s way. There are terrorists who are trying to do harm to those officers by using various types of weapons or dangerous materials against them, especially in areas like Bon Kai, Pratunam and Din Daeng which are the areas that attacks were mainly concentrated.

Since 13 May, there were a total of 58 of M79 grenades which were launched onto security forces.

The violent incidents occurred during the past 2-3 days around Ratchaprasong area, such as burning of rubber tires, arson, looting on government’s properties and private businesses , have proved the intention of UDD’s leaders to use armed terrorists against the protesters.

Relief operations have been conducted, with food delivered to the local residents affected by the situation in various areas. Since the presence of military officers in the relief zone was deemed dangerous, and might complicate the situation at any time, authorities concerned will instead try using negotiation as a way to facilitate the relief operation and to deliver all basic necessities to the people in affected areas.

Learning from the tragic incident on April 10, right now all security forces will always keep distance from the protesters, of at least 200 – 300 meters, which is considered a safe distance from the reach of M79 grenade launchers and some other weapons. Therefore, the security forces’ death toll and injuries are minimal.

The civilians’ casualties and injuries during the past few days could have been caused by unidentified gunmen hiding behind self-made bunkers and on high buildings.

There were also eyewitnesses, both protesters and press, on such incidents. Besides, among those who lost their lives or were injured, they should not always be seen as innocent victims, since

some of them could also be terrorists who get shot by security forces---just that no weapons were found making them look like ordinary civilians.

...

www.capothai.org: Deputy Staff Command press briefing 18 May 2010 at 2045 hrs

^note: here is a semi-confession that the security forces used deadly force, but they also admit that there is a lack of the smoking gun. the dead were unarmed.

Press Briefing for Diplomatic Corps 22 May

Deputy Prime Minister Suthep:

Dear fellow Thai people, members of the diplomatic corps and the media. I would like to inform you that, during the Red Shirt protest, there were incidents that involved

terrorists using weapons to attack officials, rescue units, members of the press and innocent people. These incidents, which had led to many casualties and injuries,

had been closely reported by international media. During this period, Red Shirt leaders had tried to launch a propaganda campaign to mislead that there were no terrorists and heavy weapons. However, the truth revealed itself in the end.

www.capothai.org: Press Briefing for Diplomatic Corps 22 May at 1500 hrs

PM TV program 23 May 2010:

Some 46 people lost their lives during this period. These losses, which included journalists and innocent people, the Prime Minister stressed,

were unrelated to the protest area at Ratchaprasong but resulted from clashes with those who attacked the officers’ check points. The officers had to respond to protect the check points and defend themselves in accordance with the clearly stipulated rules of engagement. During that period, more than 100 M 79 grenades were fired at the check points but losses among the officers were minimised as they had dug away from the M 79 firing range.

This notwithstanding,

the armed groups continued to attack innocent people and other target groups such as foreign journalists, and emergency medical and health volunteers, to inflict losses as a way to pressure the Government.

As images revealed, they also put a child on their bunkers made of tires as if to tell the officers that had any clashes occurred, the casualties would include children.

www.capothai.org: PM TV program 23 May 2010

MFA responds to media enquiries about Amsterdam & Peroff’s statement June 4, 2010

Regarding operations by security forces, the Royal Thai Government had given strict orders that all operations regarding the protests by the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) be undertaken in accordance with the seven-step rules of engagement in line with the principle of proportionality and international standards, including the United Nations Basic Principles on the Use of Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials.

They were also subject to strict instruction on the use of live ammunition, namely: as warning shots, in self-defence and to prevent harm on the lives of members of the public.

Based on evidence and video footage taken by the media during the clashes between the protesters and the security forces, it is clear that there were

armed elements infiltrating

among the demonstrators. These individuals – not bound by similar rules –

had used lethal weapons, including automatic assault rifles and grenade launchers, with indiscriminate effect and utter disregard for human lives, leading to loss of lives and injuries among demonstrators, bystanders and security officers.

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Okay that is what the government claims.

I hope the quotes are enough for a recap and memory refresh. it isn't the complete time line and don't include everything. just a few sound bites for the memory and get the idea what i am talking about.

we all know that some argue and accusing the government of killing unarmed civilians, but the government in defense and as general explanation comes up with the theory that deaths caused by government troops are only minimal but the majority of the deaths were killed by terrorists. that is at the moment the official line. and because the death civilians were indeed mostly unarmed this is the only logical way to explained it from the govt position. blaming a third force, who came between between the armed soldiers and the unarmed protesters (and unarmed dead)infiltrating the red shirts. the so called terrorists, who killed people from all sides and also the red shirts.

don't forget that according to Abhisit the majority of the red shirts were ordinary citizens, and nothing more than innocent people demanding democracy.

there is another wild theory out with the intention to defend the government and blame the red shirts. according to this beliefs the vast majority of the dead civilians were armed and terrorists who died during battles with the government troops. but there is not much proof and evidence for it and such claims can only come from Abhisit apologists who have not much clue what their Abhisit is actually talking. And it is not my fault when there is some confusion because a government supporter don't recognise and don't know the government version and demands 'proof' for it.

so much for the government version. there is not much consensus that the dead civilians were all armed. the opposite opinion, 'unarmed civilians' isn't so far out of place. the question who killed them needs still lots of investigation.

and if anyone can refer to cases where it is evident that a killed civilian was armed and an imminent threat, please post it here.