More Foreign Teachers To Be Hired

[george]

More foreign teachers to be hired

Govt to liberalise the education system

BANGKOK: -- Thailand wants to hire more foreign teachers because of worries over the decline in students’ intelligence quotients (IQ) and their poor knowledge of English.

Most foreign teachers are employed by private-run international schools or schools offering a bilingual curriculum, according to the deputy Education Minister, Rung Kaewdaeng.

The government plans to liberalise the country’s education system to allow private-run schools to employ as many native speakers as teachers, he said.

The education ministry has set up a working committee to prepare a feasibility study, which should be completed with the next three weeks, Mr Rung said.

The results would then be submitted to the prime minister and the cabinet for consideration.

If the plans are approved, a small government unit would be established to help recruit teachers overseas and assist in providing them with travel documents, he said.

Foreign teachers of mathematics, sciences, computer sciences and English would be hired first.

--TNA 2005-06-26

Call Radio Bangkok's Voice mail and leave your comments on this article:

Dial 0-2207-2677 Int. calls: +66 2 2072677

[duncanm]

This will be interesting... the current laws on employing foreigners can make it quite a bind for many places to organise proper documentation. Freeing this process up will encourage more legit teachers ( rather than the sex tourists that give the Thais such good reason not to like us )

There are very good reasons for teachers to work in Thailand, for example it is one of the few countries where you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree. So it is a very useful way to dip your toe in the water before spending a fortune on a teaching degree.

Personally my current job at a Thai high school is the best job I've ever had! Incredibly rewarding and with the extra private work I do I have a much better standard of living than when I was earning a quarter of a million baht a month working in London.

Edited June 26, 2005 by george

[bossman]

<snip>

Eventually I believe the EFL teachers will have to be recruited internationally on a competitive wage scale. Other asian countries have had to do this to attract legitimate decent teachers and not fly by night backpackers or sex tourists. Unfortunately because Thailand is a developing world country they will amost always fall behind in attracting the best candidates.

Edited June 26, 2005 by george

[duncanm]

<snip>

There is definitely a big push to create an educated middle class in this country...

Last night I was at a school party.. I met quite a few parents who seemed pretty clued up about what their kids were and were not learning.

The majority of my Mattayom 5 students are working pretty hard at the moment, they know that they have an opportunity to alter their futures and are taking advantage of a decent english program.

<snip>

/Cheers george.

I do agree that there are problems due to wages... for example there is no way I can afford to do a masters on my current wages.

OTOH I'm pretty new to teaching... less than a years experience and already have a significant amount of responsibility.

Everyday I feel pushed and I know that I'm becoming a better educator.

When I come to do my MA ( probably after I've seen my M5s go to University ) I might have to move, but maybe in 18 months time there may be enough money available to do this.

I also suspect I'll find my Masters a lot easier as a result of having solid experience of teaching in the educational field.

I've got quite a few friends doing EFL around the world so I didn't blindly choose to start teaching in Thailand... it actually made the most sense for my long term career goals.

Edited June 26, 2005 by duncanm

[george]

Please keep on topic.

I have removed a few inappropriate posts and subsequent quotes.

Thanks for keeping the quality of postings up!

/Admin

[z21rhd]

Please keep on topic.

I have removed a few inappropriate posts and subsequent quotes.

Thanks for keeping the quality of postings up!

/Admin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks George,

Your intervention certainly has raised the quality

[ray23]

Please keep on topic.

I have removed a few inappropriate posts and subsequent quotes.

Thanks for keeping the quality of postings up!

/Admin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks George,

Your intervention certainly has raised the quality

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wonder if this will open things up a bit for those of us who live here already and would enjoy teaching. I did volunteer work for a bit. Until found out that it was good way to get deported I enjoyed it. But, since I wasn't even being paid it just wasn't worth the risk. I only have an AA degree but have taught within my career field before coming here. I had thought about taking the TEFL as some people with less education and experience are teaching here. But as I understood the climate I was not interested in tieing up the money and time. Maybe if things could be done properly I would take the time.

[Martin]

duncann makes some good points, but (and it is a big but) there are very few like him who would give up their UK or USA salary to work here.

That is unless, as bossman says, Thailand's private-run schools start offering equivalent money (plus airflights to and fro every two years, plus free accommodation, plus free education in an international school for the teachers' kids, plus free medical insurance).

I worked in the International School sector last winter and that was the package needed to get British teachers to come out here.

I thought that all the above, with 100,000 bahts per month for the younger ones and up to 200,000 bahts per month for the more senior ones was a very attractive deal.

But it wasn't attractive enough to get many very good teachers to come, and filling all the slots meant that managements had to take some who were definitely less than 'very good'.

Singapore bit on the bullet and decided it would pay what was necessary to get the quality of engineering, sciences, maths, english-language teachers (native speakers) that it needed for its Junior Colleges, Polytechnics and Universities.

They didn't come cheap, and there was a lot of jealousy from Singaporean teachers at the money the 'farangs' were getting.

But those 'farangs' didn't feel very well off and certainly wouldn't recommend their ex-colleagues who were still in Blighty to come.

I think we should wait and see what salary, plus benefits, the Thai private-run schools feel that they can afford to offer before predicting whether this scheme will produce any results---especially bearing in mind that working in a run-of-the-mill private-run school is much less attractive than working in an international school.

However, wait a few years till the price of heating oil in Blighty is four times what it is now. Then they may be glad to come for a lot less money!!!

Edited June 26, 2005 by Martin

[duncanm]

Singapore bit on the bullet and decided it would pay what was necessary to get the quality of engineering, sciences, maths, english-language teachers (native speakers) that it needed for its Junior Colleges, Polytechnics and Universities.

They didn't come cheap, and there was a lot of jealousy from Singaporean teachers at the money the 'farangs' were getting.

But those 'farangs' didn't feel very well off and certainly wouldn't recommend their ex-colleagues who were still in Blighty to come.

I think we should wait and see what salary, plus benefits, the Thai private-run schools feel that they can afford to offer before predicting whether this scheme will produce any results---especially bearing in mind that working in a run-of-the-mill private-run school is much less attractive than working in an international school.

Actually one area I'd like to see addressed is the pay for Thai teachers... which is frankly appalling.

None of my students would consider being a teacher because of this.

Now the quality of the English teaching can be rather dubious but in other subject areas such as Maths and Science they can be very good... definitely delievering the same quality of teaching as the average farang does. This does explain the resentment they feel towards us.

From what I've heard working in a private school is generally a very unpleasant experience since they are very much orientated around profit rather than high quality teaching.

My experience is of a goverment school... so whilst the students do pay extra to be on the MEP or EP no-one at the school personally profits from it, instead 50% of the turnover goes back into the main school's finance.

Of course my experience proably isn't the best to describe the normal experience of teaching in thailand... not many Thai high schools have an English department with 20 foreign teachers.

[Peabody]

<snip>

Eventually I believe the EFL teachers will have to be recruited internationally on a competitive wage scale. Other asian countries have had to do this to attract legitimate decent teachers and not fly by night backpackers or sex tourists. Unfortunately because Thailand is a developing world country they will amost always fall behind in attracting the best candidates.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would second this. I actually said the same thing earlier, but my words were perhaps a bit too strong for this forum, hence deleted, sorry all. I'll try again...

My guess is that most teachers are actually not here for the money. However, most people have a point at which they almost feel insulted at certain wages being offered. I think it is probably more important to provide a good working environment for foreign teachers than to try to raise wages to anything near competitive with those in the west. And the cost of providing this environment? MUCH less than wage increases.

Part of this involves emphasizing academics more than is currently being done. I think the largest reason for failure by Thai students (not what the report card says, rather the actual failure to learn) is that they cannot fail. The MOE goes back and forth on this issue- last year they announced that we would revert back to the old "students CAN fail" policy. This seems to have been quietly forgotten and was almost certainly tied into the fiasco and discord about raising the weight of GPA in calculating a student's qualifications for university admission.

A large part is also affording the same respect to foreign teachers as that given to Thai teachers by students, administrators and Thai staff. One would hope for a balance between face and truth, each being important to the various cultures, but to a differing degree. The native speakers hate being lied to and have a rather different idea about this issue than do the Thais. I am sure that Thais dislike being asked the "when" and "why" questions by farang- it means that, at some point, they may be "wrong", an unacceptable outcome (I think it's more unacceptable than many Westerners can imagine!)

The Thai/native speaker discord is also fueled, of course, by the pay disparities. Thais believe, erroneously, that they are doing the same job as the farang. I say erroneously because the instruction given by native speakers neccesitates a good command of the English language, something the Thais generally do not have, at least not at the same levels. An increase in farang salaries can only widen this disparity and discord.

The fact that Thailand is still emerging from 3rd world status has a huge influence on the economic aspects of making teaching in LOS more attractive to foreigners. While there are many things that make people want to stay in Thailand, to take, for example, a skilled scientist/science teacher who can easily make $30,000-60,000/year in the States, with 180 non-working days, retirement, a good health plan and a minimum of impossibly complex and undefined paperwork just to be allowed to live there on a daily/monthly/yearly basis might take more than smiling, vague promises from some Thai governement rep.

I hope this was phrased a bit better than my original, rather vituperative, post!

[Martin]

dunncann says: "Actually one area I'd like to see addressed is the pay for Thai teachers... which is frankly appalling.

None of my students would consider being a teacher because of this."

That is a recipe for Thailand staying ever-developing, never-developed.

I became an electronics engineer and never expected to spend any part of my career being a teacher.

(In fact, I was glad to shake the dust of acadaemia off my feet when I left an exam hall for the last time. And I would have scoffed at anybody who predicted I would spend, off and on, half my career in teaching.)

But I landed up in it by accident (since we wanted to move to Calgary and teaching in a technical-college was the only job going at that moment).

Since then I have been back to industry a few times and worked with people who would have made good teachers and been inspirational role models to students.

But they were always earning more money than teaching would pay them.

No country will get enough good teachers unless it pays enough to attract enough of those who would be good teachers to leave industry and give teaching a try.

Any country will get a few good teachers because there is a small minority of people who will teach even though it pays less than their industrial worth.

But most people don't feel that their own individual job-satisfaction should transcend taking their proper level of money home to the family at the end of the month. So the schools have to fill most of their jobs with less than the best.

Singapore got where it is because it has a very realistic electorate who understood that, in the final analysis, its government was right to invest what was necessary.

duncann is absolutely right: Thailand could do well to review what it pays its teachers, if it wants the educated 'middle class' workforce needed to become a developed country.

[Yurko]

This will be interesting... the current laws on employing foreigners can make it quite a bind for many places to organise proper documentation. Freeing this process up will encourage more legit teachers ( rather than the sex tourists that give the Thais such good reason not to like us )

There are very good reasons for teachers to work in Thailand, for example it is one of the few countries where you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree. So it is a very useful way to dip your toe in the water before spending a fortune on a teaching degree.

Personally my current job at a Thai high school is the best job I've ever had! Incredibly rewarding and with the extra private work I do I have a much better standard of living than when I was earning a quarter of a million baht a month working in London.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your a sanctimonious pontificating hippocrat. More legit teacher my arse, you mention "you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree?" Why should the Thais lower their standards, raise yours You talk about sex tourists, many teachers there monger you &lt;deleted&gt; but they still teach.

And, because you have raised your standard of living in Thailand over you teaching in London, whoppdy do. Your a &lt;deleted&gt; sad case for being teacher. Lowering teaching standards, is that why you came to teach in Thailand because of lower standards.

Edited June 26, 2005 by Yurko

[yoshiwara]

the tendency of private schools is always to go for the cheapest cost option even at the risk of fast staff turnover...if the governmet decides to offer work permits for teachers with appropriate qualifications and experience and in addition regulate permission to employ the unqualified and the inexperienced, then this can force up the standard of tuition for Thai students, but is more likely to be effectively implemented in the public sector....

[BlackJack]

i have had my name down for teaching computer subjects for a few years now

however the computer subjects are taught in Thai language and i dont speak thai well enough

Every school approached stated they wanted english teachers not computer teachers

so it was a catch 22

now i see the computer literacy rate of Thais has dropped to an all time low

teaching overseas students computer subjects in Australia was a load of fun as we combined english and computer subjects

A lot better than bum aching plain ol english classes

so should i hold my breath for another 3 weeks until the start hiring computer teachers or is this Thai time rh etoric

[duncanm]

Your a sanctimonious pontificating hippocrat.  More legit teacher my arse, you mention "you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree?"  Why should the Thais lower their standards, raise yours   You talk about sex tourists, many teachers there monger you &lt;deleted&gt; but they still teach.

And, because you have raised your standard of living in Thailand over you teaching in London, whoppdy do.  Your a &lt;deleted&gt; sad case for being teacher. Lowering teaching standards, is that why you came to teach in Thailand because of lower standards. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well excuse me...

You actually don't know anything about me do you?

So what is your exact purpose in sniping here?

I'm sure there are many great teachers who visit the bars... but do you think that it's appropriate that these people are put in a position to be role models to children? I know I would not be overjoyed if one of my children was being taught by someone who regularly assosciated with prostitutes.

And in answer to your question... yes I'm teaching in a Thai high school because their standards are low enough that i could get my first job here.

There is no way that you are going to attract experienced and qualified teachers with salaries of 30-40K baht. So they do the best they can.

Of the teachers that are hired at my school maybe 50% make it. These are the ones who don't just turn up to collect their paycheck, but are actually prepared to become part of the school.

Actually as a bonus my degree is in Psychology and I didn't do a made in Thailand TEFL... I did a CELTA which is a good starting point. This in no way compares to a proper teaching degree... but I suspect that the school gets pretty decent value for money from me.

@ Peabody... sorry for the slanging match, I agree with a lot of what you write, but my personal experience is a lot more hopeful than yours.

We had joint professional development courses with the Thai English teachers over the holidays and these had a very positive effect on the way we interact with them. As a general rule we interact more as a team than opposing sides.

@ Blackjack... There should be quite a few Computer teaching jobs. Our English program includes computer lessons from foreign teachers so imagine other schools will. May be worth talking to Bfits / Bright Future. I know they run quite a few English programs.

Edited June 26, 2005 by duncanm

[route66krefeld]

This will be interesting... the current laws on employing foreigners can make it quite a bind for many places to organise proper documentation. Freeing this process up will encourage more legit teachers ( rather than the sex tourists that give the Thais such good reason not to like us )

There are very good reasons for teachers to work in Thailand, for example it is one of the few countries where you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree. So it is a very useful way to dip your toe in the water before spending a fortune on a teaching degree.

Personally my current job at a Thai high school is the best job I've ever had! Incredibly rewarding and with the extra private work I do I have a much better standard of living than when I was earning a quarter of a million baht a month working in London.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I second that motion, teaching here is a very greatful job, that is if you are A DEVOTED TEACHER FOR THE CAUSE. I personally have come across a lot of FARANGS, that call themselves teacher, but are here for sex,sex and sex. There is nothing better than realizing, that your students have learned a lot in 4 weeks, and I have students, that have had the wrong kind of teacher and for 6 years of learning English, they still answer, I am fine if you ask how old they are. So all of you outthere , that want to do good, you are welcome, but those of you , that teach for the wrong reasons, do us all a favour and find your cheap thrills in you own country, because personally, I am tired of picking up, where you left off, and when it comes to young minds, that is a dangerous thing to mess with, if you are not completely devoted to the cause. signed route66

[george]

Admin warning:

I repeat: This is not ajarn.com!

If you post crap or off-topics here your post will be deleted and your name will be purged from our member database and your IP/computer will be blocked from further access to this site.

Please read our forum rules before posting here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?act=boardrules

Thanks.

/Admin

[erikr_]

wow that would be a nice thing. I used to have a private education firm and teach math and physics. So it would be a nice thing to work in thailand, as i love the country the food and the culture and for sure are not a sex tourist. But the wages are not to encouraging.

But would be willing to work for at least one or two years, if I knew where to find the jobs

Edited June 26, 2005 by erikr_

[Martin]

Somebody once made the observation that "everything in education ultimately depends on the conscience of an individual teacher".

Last winter, I once heard a farang speaking quite bitterly about his child being taught on a Thursday by a thoroughly hungover young British teacher.

After that I paid more attention to observing the 'farang' teachers in the school.

And yes, some should have had a more conscientious approach to turning up really fit to teach, and should have been more discreet about their sexual temporary liasons (but that was more the young women teachers than the men----though admittedly it was too small a sample to generalise from).

There were others who were well worse for wear on Saturday and Sunday mornings, but always OK on weekdays.

Methinks, it isn't so much whether teachers use the services of the bars or not, as how they behave if they do!

[Artisan]

This will be interesting... the current laws on employing foreigners can make it quite a bind for many places to organise proper documentation. Freeing this process up will encourage more legit teachers ( rather than the sex tourists that give the Thais such good reason not to like us )

There are very good reasons for teachers to work in Thailand, for example it is one of the few countries where you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree. So it is a very useful way to dip your toe in the water before spending a fortune on a teaching degree.

Personally my current job at a Thai high school is the best job I've ever had! Incredibly rewarding and with the extra private work I do I have a much better standard of living than when I was earning a quarter of a million baht a month working in London.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your a sanctimonious pontificating hippocrat. More legit teacher my arse, you mention "you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree?" Why should the Thais lower their standards, raise yours You talk about sex tourists, many teachers there monger you &lt;deleted&gt; but they still teach.

And, because you have raised your standard of living in Thailand over you teaching in London, whoppdy do. Your a &lt;deleted&gt; sad case for being teacher. Lowering teaching standards, is that why you came to teach in Thailand because of lower standards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Come on moderators, put your money where your mouth is and purge this person's name (Yurko) from your member database and block his IP/computer from further access to this site. Why do I have to see such vitriolic, asinine and scathing postings on this site? Duncan's postings were fluent, on topic and, obviously, based on personal experience, whereas the one from Yurko was......well, incredibly abusive.

[duncanm]

Somebody once made the observation that "everything in education ultimately depends on the conscience of an individual teacher".

Last winter, I once heard a farang speaking quite bitterly about his child being taught on a Thursday by a thoroughly hungover young British teacher.

After that I paid more attention to observing the 'farang' teachers in the school.

And yes, some should have had a more conscientious approach to turning up really fit to teach, and should have been more discreet about their sexual temporary liasons (but that was more the young women teachers than the men----though admittedly it was too small a sample to generalise from).

There were others who were well worse for wear on Saturday and Sunday mornings, but always OK on weekdays.

Methinks, it isn't so much whether teachers use the services of the bars or not, as how they behave if they do!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I suspect this covers one of the biggest issue facing someone considering teaching in Thailand from a 'farangs' perspective.

There is no way if I had kids I would be in a position to teach in this country even if I had a partner who was also a 'farang' teacher.

Why?

Because I would not be able to send MY children to an acceptable school. Admittedly this is only a temporary situation, an MA and a few more years of teaching under my belt I would be able to teach in an international school. But TBH teaching spoilt brats isn't exactly that appealing.

Edited June 27, 2005 by duncanm

[Artisan]

This will be interesting... the current laws on employing foreigners can make it quite a bind for many places to organise proper documentation. Freeing this process up will encourage more legit teachers ( rather than the sex tourists that give the Thais such good reason not to like us )

There are very good reasons for teachers to work in Thailand, for example it is one of the few countries where you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree. So it is a very useful way to dip your toe in the water before spending a fortune on a teaching degree.

Personally my current job at a Thai high school is the best job I've ever had! Incredibly rewarding and with the extra private work I do I have a much better standard of living than when I was earning a quarter of a million baht a month working in London.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your a sanctimonious pontificating hippocrat. More legit teacher my arse, you mention "you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree?" Why should the Thais lower their standards, raise yours You talk about sex tourists, many teachers there monger you &lt;deleted&gt; but they still teach.

And, because you have raised your standard of living in Thailand over you teaching in London, whoppdy do. Your a &lt;deleted&gt; sad case for being teacher. Lowering teaching standards, is that why you came to teach in Thailand because of lower standards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you can find a copy of yesterday's "Perspective" section of the Bangkok Post (26/06/05/), read the letter from Mike Lok entitled "Grading system feeds mediocrity". He says that he has pulled the plug on his teaching career in Thailand simply because he is young, idealistic, energetic and filled with enthusiasm for teaching...... The problem? He blames it on being plagued by "common sense", something that the Thai Ministry of Education doesn't have. Apparently, the student population of Thailand was not achieving high enough scores so the Ministry has had to develop a solution...... This solution? Lower the standards!!!

Mike has been told to do this. Instead of working hard to earn an A or 90%,students can achieve the same grade now with a mere 80%. Now 20 out of 28 of his Grade 5 students are in the A range. With the old grading system, there would be only 4 A level students.

He feels that the lowering of the standards (not teaching standards by the way, Yurko) will do more damage than good and will not make for a very well-educated Thai public, especially one trying to compete on a global level. Students can slack off now and still get the grades.

However, he does see some light at the end of the tunnel because most of his students have a great deal of common sense also. Eventually, he hopes that the real issues will be addressed with real solutions.

[Ijustwannateach]

As a current high school teacher in Thailand of more than one of the alternative subjects listed in the opening article, I have the following comments:

1. I do not have a teaching degree.

2. I *do* have a degree related to the topics I teach.

3. My professors in college who taught me these subjects did not have teaching degrees (they "only" had Ph.Ds), yet somehow their teaching led me to get the college degree which I now have.

4. In the American state where I went to school, a teacher who had an A in a college subject was legally allowed to teach the subject in primary/secondary school without a teaching degree.

5. Many countries which supposedly require teaching degrees (Britain and Australia come to mind here) have solved the problem of a lack of persons with full 4-year education degrees by inventing a shorter, simpler license- in other words, they've done the same thing that Thailand has done to solve THEIR statistical grade problems.

Before people say Thailand has "lower" standards than "Western" countries, they should be more aware what the standards of those other countries are.

"Steven"

[dr_Pat_Pong]

This will be interesting... the current laws on employing foreigners can make it quite a bind for many places to organise proper documentation. Freeing this process up will encourage more legit teachers ( rather than the sex tourists that give the Thais such good reason not to like us )

There are very good reasons for teachers to work in Thailand, for example it is one of the few countries where you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree. So it is a very useful way to dip your toe in the water before spending a fortune on a teaching degree.

Personally my current job at a Thai high school is the best job I've ever had! Incredibly rewarding and with the extra private work I do I have a much better standard of living than when I was earning a quarter of a million baht a month working in London.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your a sanctimonious pontificating hippocrat. More legit teacher my arse, you mention "you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree?" Why should the Thais lower their standards, raise yours You talk about sex tourists, many teachers there monger you &lt;deleted&gt; but they still teach.

And, because you have raised your standard of living in Thailand over you teaching in London, whoppdy do. Your a &lt;deleted&gt; sad case for being teacher. Lowering teaching standards, is that why you came to teach in Thailand because of lower standards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What's a HIPPOCRAT ?

[duncanm]

If you can find a copy of yesterday's "Perspective" section of the Bangkok Post (26/06/05/), read the letter from Mike Lok entitled "Grading system feeds mediocrity". He says that he has pulled the plug on his teaching career in Thailand simply because he is young, idealistic, energetic and filled with enthusiasm for teaching...... The problem? He blames it on being plagued by "common sense", something that the Thai Ministry of Education doesn't have. Apparently, the student population of Thailand was not achieving high enough scores so the Ministry has had to develop a solution...... This solution? Lower the standards!!!

Mike has been told to do this. Instead of working hard to earn an A or 90%,students can achieve the same grade now with a mere 80%. Now 20 out of 28 of his Grade 5 students are in the A range. With the old grading system, there would be only 4 A level students.

He feels that the lowering of the standards (not teaching standards by the way, Yurko) will do more damage than good and will not make for a very well-educated Thai public, especially one trying to compete on a global level. Students can slack off now and still get the grades.

However, he does see some light at the end of the tunnel because most of his students have  a great deal of common sense also. Eventually, he hopes that the real issues will be addressed with real solutions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd be interested to read this.

From my own experience grading is actually a very useful tool for my teaching.

Their grades are controlled by me, so over last semester I gradually upped what was required from the students to get an A. Since it has been always achievable to those students who pay attention in class and can be bothered to put some effort into their homework they have adapted.

Actually now I'm into my second semester of teaching 3 classes I've found that the proportion of students attaining A grades has gone up whilst the requirements to get an A grade have also gone up.

/I apologise if this is getting too far off topic... though I feel it is relevant in the sense that it does demonstrate that there are decent teaching opportunities that can attract good teachers to Thailand. The MOE is watching our program carefully because it actually seems to be working and they are hoping to use to the lessons we are learning to improve the programs in other high schools.

[chownah]

As a current high school teacher in Thailand of more than one of the alternative subjects listed in the opening article, I have the following comments:

1.  I do not have a teaching degree.

2.  I *do* have a degree related to the topics I teach.

3.  My professors in college who taught me these subjects did not have teaching degrees (they "only" had Ph.Ds), yet somehow their teaching led me to get the college degree which I now have.

4.  In the American state where I went to school, a teacher who had an A in a college subject was legally allowed to teach the subject in primary/secondary school without a teaching degree.

5.  Many countries which supposedly require teaching degrees (Britain and Australia come to mind here) have solved the problem of a lack of persons with full 4-year education degrees by inventing a shorter, simpler license- in other words, they've done the same thing that Thailand has done to solve THEIR statistical grade problems.

Before people say Thailand has "lower" standards than "Western" countries, they should be more aware what the standards of those other countries are.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying that you think that the Thai standards for teachers is not lower than in Western countries? If you do think that Thai standards are not lower than western standards then do you also think that Thai schools produce the same quality of education as in the west? If you think the quality of Thai education is lower than in the west and the teachers are equally qualified as in the west then why is the quality of education so low?

[sriracha john]

This will be interesting... the current laws on employing foreigners can make it quite a bind for many places to organise proper documentation. Freeing this process up will encourage more legit teachers ( rather than the sex tourists that give the Thais such good reason not to like us )

There are very good reasons for teachers to work in Thailand, for example it is one of the few countries where you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree. So it is a very useful way to dip your toe in the water before spending a fortune on a teaching degree.

Personally my current job at a Thai high school is the best job I've ever had! Incredibly rewarding and with the extra private work I do I have a much better standard of living than when I was earning a quarter of a million baht a month working in London.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your a sanctimonious pontificating hippocrat. More legit teacher my arse, you mention "you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree?" Why should the Thais lower their standards, raise yours You talk about sex tourists, many teachers there monger you &lt;deleted&gt; but they still teach.

And, because you have raised your standard of living in Thailand over you teaching in London, whoppdy do. Your a &lt;deleted&gt; sad case for being teacher. Lowering teaching standards, is that why you came to teach in Thailand because of lower standards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What's a HIPPOCRAT ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A very chubby Democrat??

[dr_Pat_Pong]

This will be interesting... the current laws on employing foreigners can make it quite a bind for many places to organise proper documentation. Freeing this process up will encourage more legit teachers ( rather than the sex tourists that give the Thais such good reason not to like us )

There are very good reasons for teachers to work in Thailand, for example it is one of the few countries where you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree. So it is a very useful way to dip your toe in the water before spending a fortune on a teaching degree.

Personally my current job at a Thai high school is the best job I've ever had! Incredibly rewarding and with the extra private work I do I have a much better standard of living than when I was earning a quarter of a million baht a month working in London.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your a sanctimonious pontificating hippocrat. More legit teacher my arse, you mention "you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree?" Why should the Thais lower their standards, raise yours You talk about sex tourists, many teachers there monger you &lt;deleted&gt; but they still teach.

And, because you have raised your standard of living in Thailand over you teaching in London, whoppdy do. Your a &lt;deleted&gt; sad case for being teacher. Lowering teaching standards, is that why you came to teach in Thailand because of lower standards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What's a HIPPOCRAT ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A very chubby Democrat??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But does the angry teacher ??? know that ?

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm not sure I understand your point here.  Are you saying that you think that the Thai standards for teachers is not lower than in Western countries?  If you do think that Thai standards are not lower than western standards then do you also think that Thai schools produce the same quality of education as in the west?  If you think the quality of Thai education is lower than in the west and the teachers are equally qualified as in the west then why is the quality of education so low?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm saying that there are plenty of places back home where teachers without teaching degrees but with other degrees are teaching, just like Thailand, especially in the "difficult" subjects like math and sciences, especially outside the bigger cities. I think that the Thai *standards* for teachers are probably not all that different from the "Western" ones, except that in the "Western" countries it is probably not so easy to find alternative ways to pass your college classes- and therein lies the rub. If teachers actually had to pass the classes they took in college here in Thailand, and students actually had to pass the classes they took in school here in Thailand, the educational quality would not be so different from the "Western" countries. It is not the on-paper qualifications of Thai teachers OR the on-paper curricula or system standards which make Thai education so poor; it is the lack of meaningful assessment and the ability to fail.

[this is not to say there are no good Thai teachers or no good Thai students; it's obvious to everyone who's worked in schools here that there are- but there is no COMPULSION to reach a certain level of quality, because everyone will pass]

This suggests, of course, that educational quality will not in fact rise very much no matter WHAT kind of qualifications the new foreign teachers have (or the new Thai teachers, assuming the teachers' colleges start to crack the whip). That's probably true. There are too many people who passed under the old system with vested interests, and whose children might at the moment be too unprepared for a new system with actual accountability. Bringing in foreign teachers defers admitting the emperor has no clothes for another generation or so- and it is possible that we may make some individual differences for some students.

"Steven"

[chownah]

I'm saying that there are plenty of places back home where teachers without teaching degrees but with other degrees are teaching, just like Thailand, especially in the "difficult" subjects like math and sciences, especially outside the bigger cities.  I think that the Thai *standards* for teachers are probably not all that different from the "Western" ones, except that in the "Western" countries it is probably not so easy to find alternative ways to pass your college classes- and therein lies the rub.  If teachers actually had to pass the classes they took in college here in Thailand, and students actually had to pass the classes they took in school here in Thailand, the educational quality would not be so different from the "Western" countries.  It is not the on-paper qualifications of Thai teachers OR the on-paper curricula or system standards which make Thai education so poor; it is the lack of meaningful assessment and the ability to fail.

[this is not to say there are no good Thai teachers or no good Thai students; it's obvious to everyone who's worked in schools here that there are- but there is no COMPULSION to reach a certain level of quality, because everyone will pass]

This suggests, of course, that educational quality will not in fact rise very much no matter WHAT kind of qualifications the new foreign teachers have (or the new Thai teachers, assuming the teachers' colleges start to crack the whip).  That's probably true.  There are too many people who passed under the old system with vested interests, and whose children might at the moment be too unprepared for a new system with actual accountability.  Bringing in foreign teachers defers admitting the emperor has no clothes for another generation or so- and it is possible that we may make some individual differences for some students.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the reply. I understand now and I agree. Do you think that allowing everyone to pass is an expression of something basic to Thai culture? It seems this way to me. Even though many Thais do strive for excellence it seems to me that attaining excellence is not as important as social cohesion and that it is more important for everyone to feel included and equivalent than it is for someone to excel. If I am right then it will be a long long time before any of this changes. What do you think?