More Foreign Teachers To Be Hired

[Ijustwannateach]

^Exactly. I think it's about face. Everyone must pass. This is true both in Thailand and Japan- but for cultural differences in how this is addressed, look at how the two countries solve the problem.

1. Japan: Everyone must study (even to the loss of health and social life) to pass at a certain level.

2. Thailand: Everyone passes by administrative fiat.

"Steven"

[Darkling]

This will be interesting... the current laws on employing foreigners can make it quite a bind for many places to organise proper documentation. Freeing this process up will encourage more legit teachers ( rather than the sex tourists that give the Thais such good reason not to like us )

There are very good reasons for teachers to work in Thailand, for example it is one of the few countries where you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree. So it is a very useful way to dip your toe in the water before spending a fortune on a teaching degree.

Personally my current job at a Thai high school is the best job I've ever had! Incredibly rewarding and with the extra private work I do I have a much better standard of living than when I was earning a quarter of a million baht a month working in London.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[vasan_blr]

I understand only rich can go to English/International education in Thailand. Will this new policy bring affordable English education for middle class Thais too ? I am quite curious about this, other wise nothing will change except having more foreigners teaching in Thailand.

[Artisan]

This will be interesting... the current laws on employing foreigners can make it quite a bind for many places to organise proper documentation. Freeing this process up will encourage more legit teachers ( rather than the sex tourists that give the Thais such good reason not to like us )

There are very good reasons for teachers to work in Thailand, for example it is one of the few countries where you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree. So it is a very useful way to dip your toe in the water before spending a fortune on a teaching degree.

Personally my current job at a Thai high school is the best job I've ever had! Incredibly rewarding and with the extra private work I do I have a much better standard of living than when I was earning a quarter of a million baht a month working in London.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your a sanctimonious pontificating hippocrat. More legit teacher my arse, you mention "you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree?" Why should the Thais lower their standards, raise yours You talk about sex tourists, many teachers there monger you &lt;deleted&gt; but they still teach.

And, because you have raised your standard of living in Thailand over you teaching in London, whoppdy do. Your a &lt;deleted&gt; sad case for being teacher. Lowering teaching standards, is that why you came to teach in Thailand because of lower standards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What's a HIPPOCRAT ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A massive, thick-skinned and mentally challenged person living in or around the klongs of Thailand.

[Darkling]

This will be interesting... the current laws on employing foreigners can make it quite a bind for many places to organise proper documentation. Freeing this process up will encourage more legit teachers ( rather than the sex tourists that give the Thais such good reason not to like us )

There are very good reasons for teachers to work in Thailand, for example it is one of the few countries where you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree. So it is a very useful way to dip your toe in the water before spending a fortune on a teaching degree.

Personally my current job at a Thai high school is the best job I've ever had! Incredibly rewarding and with the extra private work I do I have a much better standard of living than when I was earning a quarter of a million baht a month working in London.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your a sanctimonious pontificating hippocrat. More legit teacher my arse, you mention "you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree?" Why should the Thais lower their standards, raise yours You talk about sex tourists, many teachers there monger you &lt;deleted&gt; but they still teach.

And, because you have raised your standard of living in Thailand over you teaching in London, whoppdy do. Your a &lt;deleted&gt; sad case for being teacher. Lowering teaching standards, is that why you came to teach in Thailand because of lower standards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Love it , love it, more more more. They are like smokers who have given up, these ` none teaching degree teachers`. What a load of waffle. You said what i wanted to, but much better.

[Darkling]

This will be interesting... the current laws on employing foreigners can make it quite a bind for many places to organise proper documentation. Freeing this process up will encourage more legit teachers ( rather than the sex tourists that give the Thais such good reason not to like us )

There are very good reasons for teachers to work in Thailand, for example it is one of the few countries where you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree. So it is a very useful way to dip your toe in the water before spending a fortune on a teaching degree.

Personally my current job at a Thai high school is the best job I've ever had! Incredibly rewarding and with the extra private work I do I have a much better standard of living than when I was earning a quarter of a million baht a month working in London.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I second that motion, teaching here is a very greatful job, that is if you are A DEVOTED TEACHER FOR THE CAUSE. I personally have come across a lot of FARANGS, that call themselves teacher, but are here for sex,sex and sex. There is nothing better than realizing, that your students have learned a lot in 4 weeks, and I have students, that have had the wrong kind of teacher and for 6 years of learning English, they still answer, I am fine if you ask how old they are. So all of you outthere , that want to do good, you are welcome, but those of you , that teach for the wrong reasons, do us all a favour and find your cheap thrills in you own country, because personally, I am tired of picking up, where you left off, and when it comes to young minds, that is a dangerous thing to mess with, if you are not completely devoted to the cause. signed route66

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try spell check if you get stuck again.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

'stuck' maybe an over simplification of a descriptive term.

[Tango7]

I guess the thing here is all down to whether a school can employ who they want to employ. it's all good and well saying you have to have a teacher's permit but that doesn't make you a good teacher.

I went through an English private school and so many teachers were terrible. Qualified yes, good teachers, no way, so it's a bit annoying to think a teacher can come over here and make 100,000 + a month just because they have a permit.

I'm a fully qualified I.T person and have worked in large organisations from tech support to ######.

I can create networks from scratch, hand code, create websites and trouble shoot almost any standard network or computer issue.

I can certainly teach I.T. It's no big issue.

I have eight years teaching experience and have some very good references concerning my teaching abilities, BUT, even though I woudl earn between 40 and 45,000 Pounds a year in I.T back home, I probably wouldn't be allowed to teach at an International school because I have no teacher's permit.

An IT teacher probably has no real life IT working experience and teaches the book.

I could bring a whole lot more to the IT section at a school but no permit, no teach.

A shame really.

[duncanm]

I understand only rich can go to English/International education in Thailand. Will this new policy bring affordable English education for middle class Thais too ? I am quite curious about this, other wise nothing will change except having more foreigners teaching in Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well the mini english program I work on is 15K baht per semester to get 9 hours/week of tuition from English speakers ( streamed with some classes getting maths in English and others with Tourism in English )

The full English program is 35K baht per semester with 20 hours of tuition in English including computer studies, science, buddhism ( from Thai monks ) and maths.

We definitely have a lot of middle class families who work very hard to get the're kids onto the MEP program. We also have smart kids from families that can easily afford an international school but would like to protect their children from an overly westernised atmosphere.

On the plus side compared with private language school the teachers spend a lot their time marking and correcting work... something I personally find very valuable as it earns the respect of the kids, the teachers and helps the kids learn as well.

On the -ve. side your looking at 20-25 in the EP classes, but more like 30-38 for the MEP classes.

As to the whole teaching degree thing... it would be better for the kids if all the western teachers in the school had a teaching degree... but it's not going to happen.

There's far too much competition. At no point in this thread have I claimed to be any great teaching expert. Just that I can remain sober during the week, put in the extra hours to prepare and mark and do my bit to be a part of the school.

YMMV

[Ijustwannateach]

IMHO, I think the whole teaching degree/other degree/no degree debate is getting off-topic and has been flogged to death many times in the teaching forum (see threads there for more details).

[h5kaf]

A number of the various points made are very valid and needed to be said. I have a few points to add to the current thread.

I have not worked in the school sector here in Thailand but have spent a few contract years teaching at Universities, in Thailand. There are a number of quite clear issues.

1. A farang will require a salary at the very maximum of what the university is prepared to pay, whilst thai teachers will be paid between 9000 and 14000 baht. (here I am assuming that the farang and Thai teachers both have masters qualifications). Strangely a professional teaching certificate is not valued at all and a Ph.D. is only valued if there are MBA students (or equivalent) to teach. This whole inequitable system inevitably leads to jealousy and dissatisfaction - eventually by both sides.

2. In my experience Thai teachers seem to think they are preaching from the hill top and those below will inevitably learn if they listen hard enough. This has at least two undesirable consequences. Firstly the students learn that this is what is meant by teaching, and those that go on to teach use this method. Secondly as inevitably many students do not understand or are not motivated to progress their understanding, they seek other ways to get the necessary bit of paper when exam time comes. The level of sophistication in terms or cheating is very high. No one seems to care as the objective of the department is to get the best results and the students want the piece of paper, no matter what.

3. Students are often encouraged to follow a single book which chapter by chapter becomes the course. This USA type system will be mainly unacceptable in say a British instution where there is emphasis on learning/teaching the underlying priciples of a subject area so that the student can go and read any text, at the level. Thus a UK qualified and trained teacher will find the teaching conditions (in my experience the University sector but probably applies more widely in the secondary sector) difficult to say the least.

Money and terms etc are always major considerations. A good classroom teacher like a good stage comedian does not walk in and ad lib of the top of the head. It may look like this but in most cases the more relaxed and easy the teaching seems to be, the greater the time that has been spent in prior preparation and lecture/lesson planning. I have to say that after some 30 years of experience the planning is much much easier but it hasn't gone away.

Finally I make apoint about qualifications. The best classroom teachers I have met and seen performing (in the UK) were almost always not the best qualified (in terms of number and level of degrees held). They were all professionally qualified (B.Ed., or Cert. Ed. or PGCE.) and most had at least a first degree. The very best had developed classroom skills which made learning a pleasure for the student, and as a consequence had few classroom discipline problems. The Thai obsession with qualifications (many of dubious origin) needs to be replaced with an equal obsession for quality and understanding. The Thai school graduate and the University graduate need to be able to displaywhat they know, understand and can do. Any teacher Thai or Farang who can produce verifiable quality results should be paid the VALUE to Thai society of the job done. This is not 14000 baht nor even 70000 baht.

Sorry to have got on the pedestal, but like many readers I feel very strongly about education being the way forward for the Thai society.

[kidtongue]

IMHO, I think the whole teaching degree/other degree/no degree debate is getting off-topic and has been flogged to death many times in the teaching forum (see threads there for more details).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I've said elsewhere, the kids have to have books. That means all the students. Not 65%.

The Thai teachers need to make more. A lot more.

But that said, they can only get the requiste number from the prisons of America, Canada, the UK and Australia - which governments wilol pay the Thai government to take the prisoners. Stick a chip in their neck, track them and everyone will look good.

[vasan_blr]

I understand only rich can go to English/International education in Thailand. Will this new policy bring affordable English education for middle class Thais too ? I am quite curious about this, other wise nothing will change except having more foreigners teaching in Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well the mini english program I work on is 15K baht per semester to get 9 hours/week of tuition from English speakers ( streamed with some classes getting maths in English and others with Tourism in English )

The full English program is 35K baht per semester with 20 hours of tuition in English including computer studies, science, buddhism ( from Thai monks ) and maths.

YMMV

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for answering, I still feel 15K/Sem (For 3 Sem = 45K for just 2 hours a day course) costs lot of money for Thais. If government is not going to help them having subsidized English medium schools (Not international ones) like else where in the world, definitely nothing is going to change in 10 years. At least government should think about opening English Medium schools in Thailand which should not charge more than 25K/Year. May be in the initial phase they should choose only students on qualifying entrance exams to study in this program. To run these schools, it is expensive to hire qualified teaching professionals from various countries (I avoid West because in Singapore / India / Philippines also has lot of very well qualified teachers ready to work), but it is good for Thailand’s future. May be in the future if budget permits they can have more English medium schools depends on the students pass the entrance exams. If this is not going to happen soon, Thailand will be far behind having qualified work potential than rest of the South/South East Asia. Also Education should be treated as a service than an industry.

[Ijustwannateach]

IMHO, I think the whole teaching degree/other degree/no degree debate is getting off-topic and has been flogged to death many times in the teaching forum (see threads there for more details).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I've said elsewhere, the kids have to have books. That means all the students. Not 65%.

The Thai teachers need to make more. A lot more.

But that said, they can only get the requiste number from the prisons of America, Canada, the UK and Australia - which governments wilol pay the Thai government to take the prisoners. Stick a chip in their neck, track them and everyone will look good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, THAT makes everything clear...

[duncanm]

Thanks for answering, I still feel 15K/Sem (For 3 Sem = 45K for just 2 hours a day course) costs lot of money for Thais.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

only two semesters in the thai school year. ( 2x19 week terms )

It's a lot cheaper than a private language course as far as I can tell.

Anyway it will be interesting to see what direction they take with this.

With a mixture of 20 native speakers and a few phillipinos with teachng degrees, good support both in terms of facilities and support from the school I suspect it's easier for our school to attract decent teachers.

If many schools start competing for staff then wages will have to go up.

[george]

Update:

EDUCATION: Proposal to allow private schools to hire foreigners

Policy shift expected to improve English skills of students, solve teacher shortage

BANGKOK: -- Foreign teachers could be allowed to teach mathematics, science, computers and English at private schools as part of a significant policy shift to be implemented by the Education Ministry, the deputy education minister said yesterday.

Rung Kaewdaeng said the move to liberalise the education system using English as the medium of instruction would improve English proficiency among Thai students, increase international competitiveness and solve the problem of teacher shortages.

“This policy will cause big changes in the country’s education system and it is an important step. If it is successful, it will be adopted in state schools and universities,’’ he said.

The ministry will remove all restrictions against employing foreign teachers in private schools. Only international schools and bilingual schools are currently allowed to hire foreign teachers.

Rung said the ministry intends to liberalise private schools by allowing them to hire native speakers to teach English, or teach other subjects using English as a medium of instruction.

A committee will be set up to study the policy, which will be completed in three weeks and forwarded for Cabinet approval, he said.

“Foreign teachers find it hard to get permission to teach in Thailand. They have to seek permission from the Labour and Foreign ministries,” Rung said.

“Schools are willing to pay high salaries because there is a shortage of foreign teachers, leading to job-hopping among the teachers. Some schools even engage in bidding wars to hire the cream of the crop.’’

Foreign teachers who work in private schools without official permission must renew their visas by travelling to Thai embassies in neighbouring countries every three months.

“It wastes a lot of time and is very confusing for the teachers,’’ he said.

If the liberalisation plan is approved, he said, the ministry would set up an agency to oversee the recruitment of foreign teachers. The agency will be responsible for contacting the Foreign Ministry, and will help the teachers apply for visas at Thai embassies or consuls abroad.

“The government will support the agency by helping it recruit qualified teachers in subjects such as mathematics, science and computers,’’ he said.

Students are bound to learn more English if they study a variety of subjects with English as the medium of instruction, he said. “The vocabulary in subjects like physics is not difficult. The students will get used to English and learn the language.’’

Rung said the ministry would control the number of teachers in each subject, and make sure that qualified Thais were not denied suitable positions.

--Bangkok Post 2005-06-27

[satu]

thailands english teaching system in primary schools is absolutely unuseful. this ist the explanation of the fact, that children cant speak english after learning it for 10 years. but it seems, that the ministery for education is not interestet on reforms. it will hire 10.000 new teachers.

[expatinasia]

The government of Thailand generally, and Bangkok specifically, has a CAN'T DO attitude. When there was a non-fatal crash on the subway, the system was shuttered for almost 3 weeks. The government commented that the subway system could not be expanded - it was much too dangerous. When Bangkok was planning a train to the new airport, it was discovered that an illegally expanded disco was several meters too close to the planned railroad tracks. The government's response: we can't build a train, we can never build a train, all of our plans are ruined.

I get the same feeling reading most of the posts in this discussion. Rather than celebrate the fact that Thailand wants to hire more teachers, virtually every post is negative: grading is too easy, the teachers won't be paid enough, the students are stupid, the teachers don't get proper respect....and on and on. Snap out of it fellas.

[PeaceBlondie]

I cannot believe that out of 47 responses to the initial post, not counting those which were deleted, nobody has realized what the original post is; PROPAGANDA AND HORSE MANURE. This is the govt.'s 'announcement de jour' or propaganda of the week. Nothing will come of it, nothing even vaguely resembling the original announcement.

The Thai educational system (at least the public system) simply cannot afford to pay enough. The Thai government red tape (xenophobic bureaucracies based on nationalism) HATE to admit that foreigners can do what Thai's can't do.

Once the more professional educators in the UK, USA, etc., realize that these jobs pay well under 120,000 baht per month; that the level of cheating in Thai schools is pandemic; that grades mean nothing; that tests test nothing; that they will NEVER be fully legal; etc.; etc.; they won't come. It won't happen in the first place or the last place.

PS. Thai teachers with master's degrees that I know make between 20 and 31K per month, plus pensions, plus all kinds of other benefits that foreigners never get. However, the 'market economies' for Thai teachers and farang teachers ought to be entirely separate. The market economy for paying farang teachers is limited by SUPPLY. Supply of available baht.

Edited June 27, 2005 by PeaceBlondie

[Rumpole]

There were others who were well worse for wear on Saturday and Sunday mornings, but always OK on weekdays.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And therein lies one of the main disadvantages of working as a teacher in Thailand, in my view. It is not just the ridiculously low salaries. Who in their right mind would wish to work seven days a week? What kind of quality product can be delivered under these conditions? Which other countries in the world even think about requiring it? Very few, in my experience.

Attracting foreign teachers to Thailand requires much more than a mere statement of intent. Just because the government pretends they want it to happen, doesn't mean it will actually come to pass. Thailand generally has a pretty appalling reputation among professional educators and attracts very few. The Thais are going to have to take a long, hard look at the whole culture of, and working conditions in, their education system. Employing foreign teachers under the same serf-like conditions as Thai teachers will not wash. Those with qualifications and experience elsewhere simply will not put up with it, and will vote with their feet.

Frankly, I cannot see the Thais ever being able to organize and sustain a scheme similar to the Hong Kong NET and Japanese JET.

Edited June 27, 2005 by Rumpole

[Pepe']

Please keep on topic.

I have removed a few inappropriate posts and subsequent quotes.

Thanks for keeping the quality of postings up!

I have considered teaching in Thailand. However it is my opinion that school administrations should be offering fine California "Reds" as part of their compensation

package, with wine refrigerators included.

You know how hot it can get...

Is that asking too much...

[Ijustwannateach]

I cannot believe that out of 47 responses to the initial post, not counting those which were deleted, nobody has realized what the original post is; PROPAGANDA AND HORSE MANURE.  This is the govt.'s 'announcement de jour' or propaganda of the week.  Nothing will come of it, nothing even vaguely resembling the original announcement.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Awww, c'mon, PB.... that's giving it away. It's more fun if we pretend to take them seriously and then discuss what that would mean.... otherwise every thread with any government announcement would end the same way...

[haha]

I wouldn't mind working for 30k to 40k baht per month. as long as I'm not treated like a slave.

anybody out there want to hire a middle-aged, asian american who likes to laugh a lot?

[makavelithedon]

This will be interesting... the current laws on employing foreigners can make it quite a bind for many places to organise proper documentation. Freeing this process up will encourage more legit teachers ( rather than the sex tourists that give the Thais such good reason not to like us )

There are very good reasons for teachers to work in Thailand, for example it is one of the few countries where you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree. So it is a very useful way to dip your toe in the water before spending a fortune on a teaching degree.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whilst the standard of this thread (as others have pointed out) is clearly excellent I could see where Yourko was coming from duncanm with some of your comments.

I taught in your average 45 per class Government school for nearly 18 months and have lived here for 3. I get sick and tired of all so called non-professional teachers being grouped in a backbacker or sex tourist label. I know plenty of Tefl or excuse me Celta qualified teachers (and there is little difference regardless of what has been written to the contrary) who work ###### hard here, have never been near a brothel or lived out of a backpack and through trial and error, and continuing to read relevant BA'ed degree type literature are training themselves into teachers as good as many of those whiter than white angels who are fortunate enough to have graduated as a 'proper teacher' in there native land. Oh and shock horror also visit bars and chop and change jobs and countries when they feel like it.

I have witnessed 'proper teachers' with MA's and the rest teaching at Patom level that shouldn't be let near a child of any age and also the same for a teacher with just a tefl certificate. That is not to say I am a great teacher but I certainly had the respect of the Thai teachers of my school who had seen numerous amounts of us come through over the years- mostly 1-2 months and quit! To me that meant a lot, oh and I wasn't hated, regardless of the wage disparity.

As for your comments in regard sex tourists and it being a contributory factor to Thai's 'hating us' it is frankly borne of ignorance probably due to you being a relative newbie.

Thai's keep these establishments open not foreigners. The number of foreigners in Thailand is miniscual and the 'bar type' establishment is pretty much accepted in the society here; to suggest that this is a reason for hating us is frankly laughable.

That is not to say it sits easily with me either as it doesn't, but please- assessing TEFL teacher's abilities is a lot more complex than a black and white view of whether they have or have not, visit or don't visit bar girls or live out of a back pack; and education is elitist enough without alienating people who have had the opportunity (along with yourself) to achieve hopefully the same thing without Willy Wonker's golden ticket........................

Mak

Edited June 29, 2005 by makavelithedon

[kat]

makavelithedon:

That was an excellent post. Thanks for saying what I'd say if I wasn't so exhausted from teaching all day.

[treefrog]

This will be interesting... the current laws on employing foreigners can make it quite a bind for many places to organise proper documentation. Freeing this process up will encourage more legit teachers ( rather than the sex tourists that give the Thais such good reason not to like us )

There are very good reasons for teachers to work in Thailand, for example it is one of the few countries where you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree. So it is a very useful way to dip your toe in the water before spending a fortune on a teaching degree.

Personally my current job at a Thai high school is the best job I've ever had! Incredibly rewarding and with the extra private work I do I have a much better standard of living than when I was earning a quarter of a million baht a month working in London.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your a sanctimonious pontificating hippocrat. More legit teacher my arse, you mention "you can teach in a high school without a teaching degree?" Why should the Thais lower their standards, raise yours You talk about sex tourists, many teachers there monger you &lt;deleted&gt; but they still teach.

And, because you have raised your standard of living in Thailand over you teaching in London, whoppdy do. Your a &lt;deleted&gt; sad case for being teacher. Lowering teaching standards, is that why you came to teach in Thailand because of lower standards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, Buster, you're obviously on the lower end of the teaching spectrum. Most EFL teachers do at least like to think that they can use correct spelling and grammar. You obviously don't care. If you are a teacher, I feel sorry for your students!