Thailand Fights Addiction To Plastic Bags

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

the problem with reusable bags is that you need to regularly sanitize them to prevent crosss contamination of food that you keep putting in the bags if they are used for shopping.

<snip>

That is why I have a "dirty" box and a "clean" box each full of Big C bags. (The boxes are old Leo boxes ) The "dirty" ones originally contained cold food, or packaged meat products, etc - anything that could contain water or blood, etc. They are used for dirty jobs - wrapping up smelly stuff before throwing it away.

The "clean" bags are those that contained dry shopping and can be used again for shopping at Makro (where they don't give out bags).

[Token]

However, you are right in saying that plastic reusable bags in a dumpsite are not carbon neutral. But this is a good thing. THey are carbon "minus," so-to-speak. They lock up carbon and keep it from getting into the air. This is called sequestration, and it is a major goal among the global-warming scientists.

How can non-biodegradeable plastics be carbon minus when they are manufactured from fossil fuels? Also they don't 'lock' away carbon indefinitely - they will chemically degrade over time, releasing carbon - it just takes much longer than biodegradeable ones.

I still believe that if only shopping bags are made reusable then it will make only a miniscule difference to plastic accumulation - particularly as the current plastic supermarket bags are almost universally reused as rubbish bags. The rubbish bags would need to be made reusable and that would be a big sanitary issue and not feasible. Given the option I would choose biodegradable as the only really viable alterantive to the current plastic bags but I will compromise and say that the answer is bags that are both biodegradeable and reusable!

Read up on sequestration and then get back to me.

And you can't have it both ways. Either the bags degrade and don't take up landfill space, or they are essentially inert and for all practical purposes, keep carbon out of the air. Or at least, they can keep it out of the air during the time frame we need to be able to come up with better ways to address the issue.

(And they are "carbon-minus" because they took carbon out of the air, albeit it millions of years ago.)

In my humble opinion, get off the minor issue of sanitation (minor in terms of environmental impact) and get a grasp of the science on the issue. Or don't, if you don't want to, and go on believing the hype.

You don't have to be patronising, I know enough about sequestration - it would help if you focussed on the individual issues I have raised instead of obviously trying to avoid them. You seem transfixed on carbon footprints - they are not the only issue here. Change your limited mind-set and deal with more practical issues and some more important ones for Thailand like accumulation in the environment, which is at least as important and, in fact, is the reason behind the original article. In Thailand it's not mainly about carbon footprints, it's about non-degradeable plastic bags choking rivers, seas, gutters, wasteland and the countryside for hundreds of years. And these plastic bags are not only the ones you can use for shopping at supermarkets, they are numerous types.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Token

[Token]

<snip>

the problem with reusable bags is that you need to regularly sanitize them to prevent crosss contamination of food that you keep putting in the bags if they are used for shopping.

<snip>

That is why I have a "dirty" box and a "clean" box each full of Big C bags. (The boxes are old Leo boxes ) The "dirty" ones originally contained cold food, or packaged meat products, etc - anything that could contain water or blood, etc. They are used for dirty jobs - wrapping up smelly stuff before throwing it away.

The "clean" bags are those that contained dry shopping and can be used again for shopping at Makro (where they don't give out bags).

That means you do not reuse the bags used for carrying 'wet' food. And what do you do to replace those re-used plastic bags if they can't be used in the kitchen peddle bin?

[Deeral]

Oh come on!

Take a look around the industrial estates of Thailand or just read up!

You'll see the amount of petrochemical based and plastics industry in this country is huge - and that means the people involved are some of the most powerful and influential people in thailand.

Whilst Plastics and oil are big business, the amount that is set aside for "plastic" bags probably represents 0.001% of the entire production that comes out of the raw products in those industrial estates.

I have a friend of a friend up country who produces oodles of bags and straws in a ramshackle little factory. It was quite fascinating to see actually how an imported machine of probably 40 years of age could still turn out straws in the 100s of metres per hour. It looked like a factory out of Oliver Twist. He is the "plastic bag" kingpin of that particular town and his massive across town competition specialises also in the high technology production of buckets, wash bowls and plastic stools. Don't need to ban all the bags, just make people consider when, where and how they have to or don't have to use them. 1 baht a bag would be enough to get most Thai's attention.

I would imagine that the entire plastics production for car parts probably out "values" plastic bags by 100 to 1.

PTT isn't going to lose any sleep if plastic bag consumption goes down in Thailand.

Completely the wrong end of the stick!

go and do your research into...\

1 - plastics

2 - plastic bags

I'm not wasting my breath on that reply anymore than that.

[Thai at Heart]

Oh come on!

Take a look around the industrial estates of Thailand or just read up!

You'll see the amount of petrochemical based and plastics industry in this country is huge - and that means the people involved are some of the most powerful and influential people in thailand.

Whilst Plastics and oil are big business, the amount that is set aside for "plastic" bags probably represents 0.001% of the entire production that comes out of the raw products in those industrial estates.

I have a friend of a friend up country who produces oodles of bags and straws in a ramshackle little factory. It was quite fascinating to see actually how an imported machine of probably 40 years of age could still turn out straws in the 100s of metres per hour. It looked like a factory out of Oliver Twist. He is the "plastic bag" kingpin of that particular town and his massive across town competition specialises also in the high technology production of buckets, wash bowls and plastic stools. Don't need to ban all the bags, just make people consider when, where and how they have to or don't have to use them. 1 baht a bag would be enough to get most Thai's attention.

I would imagine that the entire plastics production for car parts probably out "values" plastic bags by 100 to 1.

PTT isn't going to lose any sleep if plastic bag consumption goes down in Thailand.

Completely the wrong end of the stick!

go and do your research into...\

1 - plastics

2 - plastic bags

I'm not wasting my breath on that reply anymore than that.

Curious as to why the "large" industrial estate companies would have a significant worry if production/consumption of plastic bags went down? 5% of the worlds oil production goes to plastics, and plastic bags per se make up a small fraction of the total production of plastics.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Wrong-Perception-about-Plastic-Bag

Is plastic bag production really that important to the "country" in comparison with other potentially higher value plastics production?

Sorry to have you waste your breath by elucidating on your rather terse reply.

http://www.wasteonline.org.uk/resources/InformationSheets/Plastics.htm

Packaging makes up 35% of all plastics consumed in the UK.

This includes polyethylene (drinks bottles) through to polystyrene (foam cups). So whilst profitable, making plastic bags probably isn't something that anyone should prioritise as an industry to devote too much time to.

[NCFC]

I read thay article about sanitation in the UK's daily Telegraph. Over 48% of reusable bags had traces of E-coli.

Why take the risk of your child's life just for the sake of a little bag.

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

the problem with reusable bags is that you need to regularly sanitize them to prevent crosss contamination of food that you keep putting in the bags if they are used for shopping.

<snip>

That is why I have a "dirty" box and a "clean" box each full of Big C bags. (The boxes are old Leo boxes ) The "dirty" ones originally contained cold food, or packaged meat products, etc - anything that could contain water or blood, etc. They are used for dirty jobs - wrapping up smelly stuff before throwing it away.

The "clean" bags are those that contained dry shopping and can be used again for shopping at Makro (where they don't give out bags).

That means you do not reuse the bags used for carrying 'wet' food. And what do you do to replace those re-used plastic bags if they can't be used in the kitchen peddle bin?

No, it means I do use the bags that had carried 'wet' food, but once only when I need to wrap up something that's even nastier. I wouldn't use a bag that may have traces of blood or vegetable matter in it for anything else. I wouldn't bother trying to clean it either.

I use Champion 'Dual Tie' black plastic bags for the kitchen garbage bin as the Big C bags aren't big enough. Well, sometimes they are - when you buy 2 lots of 6 kitchen rolls wrapped in plastic the girl often digs out a really huge Big C bag to put them in.

I never run out of those normal size bags, clean or 'dirty', as Big C usually gives me a dozen or more every visit.

And if you arrange your shopping on the conveyor belt so that you alternate meat, dry goods, frozen food, dry goods, vegetables, dry goods, smelly goods,... the poor girl can't sort them and you get dozens of free bags, each only half full.

[Token]

<snip>

the problem with reusable bags is that you need to regularly sanitize them to prevent crosss contamination of food that you keep putting in the bags if they are used for shopping.

<snip>

That is why I have a "dirty" box and a "clean" box each full of Big C bags. (The boxes are old Leo boxes ) The "dirty" ones originally contained cold food, or packaged meat products, etc - anything that could contain water or blood, etc. They are used for dirty jobs - wrapping up smelly stuff before throwing it away.

The "clean" bags are those that contained dry shopping and can be used again for shopping at Makro (where they don't give out bags).

That means you do not reuse the bags used for carrying 'wet' food. And what do you do to replace those re-used plastic bags if they can't be used in the kitchen peddle bin?

No, it means I do use the bags that had carried 'wet' food, but once only when I need to wrap up something that's even nastier. I wouldn't use a bag that may have traces of blood or vegetable matter in it for anything else. I wouldn't bother trying to clean it either.

I use Champion 'Dual Tie' black plastic bags for the kitchen garbage bin as the Big C bags aren't big enough. Well, sometimes they are - when you buy 2 lots of 6 kitchen rolls wrapped in plastic the girl often digs out a really huge Big C bag to put them in.

I never run out of those normal size bags, clean or 'dirty', as Big C usually gives me a dozen or more every visit.

And if you arrange your shopping on the conveyor belt so that you alternate meat, dry goods, frozen food, dry goods, vegetables, dry goods, smelly goods,... the poor girl can't sort them and you get dozens of free bags, each only half full.

But using all these non-biodegradeable plastic bags is not helping the environment is it? You have developed a method of saving a bit of cash but done almost nothing to reduce significantly the number of persistent bags that you throw away. You are just replacing the re-used bags with black plastic bags. Next time u go to Makro - why don't u buy some biodegradable plastic bags (they have handles and come in at least 2 sizes - sandwich and bin and are as cheap as the normal ones) and use these instead of the black bags? they can even be reused to further reduce throw-aways.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Token

[norwayeagle]

Plastic make easy living for the human race(and some nest builders).Make them last for ever:welcomeani: They (Plastic of all kind) will always come in handy:mfr_closed1:

[bonobo]

You don't have to be patronising, I know enough about sequestration - it would help if you focussed on the individual issues I have raised instead of obviously trying to avoid them. You seem transfixed on carbon footprints - they are not the only issue here. Change your limited mind-set and deal with more practical issues and some more important ones for Thailand like accumulation in the environment, which is at least as important and, in fact, is the reason behind the original article. In Thailand it's not mainly about carbon footprints, it's about non-degradeable plastic bags choking rivers, seas, gutters, wasteland and the countryside for hundreds of years. And these plastic bags are not only the ones you can use for shopping at supermarkets, they are numerous types.

Read all of my posts before you accuse me of avoiding anything.  I have acknowledged that there are problems with plastic shopping bags, both as trashy eyesores and as a danger to wildlife.  With regards to this thread, I have pointed out that re-usable bags are not the universal solution that some make them out to be.  And yes, in carbon footprints, at least, that is one area where they are not the answer.  And I have pointed out that the article you quoted did not say reusable bags should not be used and that biodegradable bags are therefore the answer, as you put it.  And yes, I pointed out some serious misconceptions, as least as you stated them.

All types of bags have their pluses and minuses as far as the environment goes. And if you can't see that, well, then, my posts in ThaiVisa are not going to change that.  So just as I wrote to one other poster in this thread, I am done with this train of thought and will not reply anymore to this specific.

Have a great day!

[dominique355]

Its not an addiction is because most of the population are poor, the drink in a bag thing is not because they want a bag it’s because they want a drink and most of the population cannot afford to buy the whole bottle.

It annoys me when I go into a supermarket and spend equivalent of £30.00 and they have the cheek to charge you 1p. Ok I don’t want a plastic bag its not good for the Earth, but there is such a thing as paper – yer right it’s from trees – so I’m wrong for that as well. But there is a basic need to put my things in something to carry home and not everyone has to opportunity to have a cloth bag on them all the time.

It’s the accountants that lead the march for charging for bags not the save the earth mob (I’m one of those). Veggy bags are the way to go and they should be free and not chargeable, everything is so dear they should not charge for the bags as well. Its just another ways to squeeze more money from you.

No no, you are not wrong. Paper bags are made of wood, trees. And trees and grow again. It's called renewable. Plastic is made of oil and thus not renewable.

So paper bags are good for the environment, not only because they are biodegradable, but also because they are made of renewable sources.

In Europe in most supermarkets they sell you a paper bag for the equivalent of THB 10 and of course you are free to bring your own, reuse it.

As long as the supermarkets give the plastic bags away for free, there will be plastic bags in Thailand. The Thai population has absolutely no environmental education and thus conscious.

[bonobo]

No no, you are not wrong. Paper bags are made of wood, trees. And trees and grow again. It's called renewable. Plastic is made of oil and thus not renewable.

So paper bags are good for the environment, not only because they are biodegradable, but also because they are made of renewable sources.

One more time, to be clear, most things we make, and packaging in this case, are deleterious to the environment. Paper bags are energy hogs and thus have a pretty high carbon footprint. It takes quite a bit of fossil fuels to make them. And the manufacture of them damages water quality to a significant extent. They really are not environmentally friendly. While paper pulp can be regrown, the fossil fuels require to do that are significant.

Biodegradable bags have the advantage over paper in water pollution (ignoring the polluting effects of fertilizer, that is), but they still are energy hogs, and the quality of the bags suffer in comparison to other plastic bags.

Plastic shopping bags have disposal problems, can damage sea life, and can clutter up drains and such. Their manufacture releases slightly more air pollutants than the manufacture of paper, but not to a great extent. They do not take as much energy to produce as paper.

Reusable bags have probably the least impact on the environment, but they are not suited for every usage, and they require more active action by the user.

Paper, as it is made today, is almost certainly not the answer. Probably, some combination of reusable and plastic bags would work the best, particularly with one caveat. Recycling. Recycling plastic bags would be even more energy efficient. But that takes a commitment from government, industry, and the population at large. Does Thailand have the mindset to do this? Would Thais bother to separate the trash into rubbish and recyclables? In California, this is pretty much a part of the culture as well as a viable business. And for different reasons, in the Philippines, there is some recycling. The destitute, often children, scour the dumps to pull out anything which can be recycled for a few pesos.

Without recycling, from a purely environmental standpoint, plastic shopping bags edge out paper and maybe slightly edge out biodegradable plastic, depending on your focus. But with recycling, plastic bags hold a much better edge. But if Thailand does not have recycling centers, if the people are not willing to go to the effort, then the fact that plastic bags can be recycled means nothing.

I think charging for shopping bags is one good step. But a concerted effort by the government in conjunction with industry to make recycling viable and profitable is needed to get the Thai people behind the effort. Perhaps using that 1 baht charge for a bag should not go to the store, but to the government to help develop the recycling industry would be a good step.

[Token]

No no, you are not wrong. Paper bags are made of wood, trees. And trees and grow again. It's called renewable. Plastic is made of oil and thus not renewable.

So paper bags are good for the environment, not only because they are biodegradable, but also because they are made of renewable sources.

One more time, to be clear, most things we make, and packaging in this case, are deleterious to the environment. Paper bags are energy hogs and thus have a pretty high carbon footprint. It takes quite a bit of fossil fuels to make them. And the manufacture of them damages water quality to a significant extent. They really are not environmentally friendly. While paper pulp can be regrown, the fossil fuels require to do that are significant.

Biodegradable bags have the advantage over paper in water pollution (ignoring the polluting effects of fertilizer, that is), but they still are energy hogs, and the quality of the bags suffer in comparison to other plastic bags.

Plastic shopping bags have disposal problems, can damage sea life, and can clutter up drains and such. Their manufacture releases slightly more air pollutants than the manufacture of paper, but not to a great extent. They do not take as much energy to produce as paper.

Reusable bags have probably the least impact on the environment, but they are not suited for every usage, and they require more active action by the user.

Paper, as it is made today, is almost certainly not the answer. Probably, some combination of reusable and plastic bags would work the best, particularly with one caveat. Recycling. Recycling plastic bags would be even more energy efficient. But that takes a commitment from government, industry, and the population at large. Does Thailand have the mindset to do this? Would Thais bother to separate the trash into rubbish and recyclables? In California, this is pretty much a part of the culture as well as a viable business. And for different reasons, in the Philippines, there is some recycling. The destitute, often children, scour the dumps to pull out anything which can be recycled for a few pesos.

Without recycling, from a purely environmental standpoint, plastic shopping bags edge out paper and maybe slightly edge out biodegradable plastic, depending on your focus. But with recycling, plastic bags hold a much better edge. But if Thailand does not have recycling centers, if the people are not willing to go to the effort, then the fact that plastic bags can be recycled means nothing.

I think charging for shopping bags is one good step. But a concerted effort by the government in conjunction with industry to make recycling viable and profitable is needed to get the Thai people behind the effort. Perhaps using that 1 baht charge for a bag should not go to the store, but to the government to help develop the recycling industry would be a good step.

As plastics are here to stay, and with ever increasing use and volume, what should be the obvious answer to most is both biodegradeable and reusable plastics in whatever form: bags, bottles, computers etc. Then if they are not reused and/or eventually end up in the environment, which they will, then they will not last a thousand years, just a few months. Of course, there might be chemical contamination issues here but it's the best solution to environmental buildup until completely non-toxic biodegradeable bags are developed and that will be very soon, if not already.

[JetsetBkk]

But using all these non-biodegradeable plastic bags is not helping the environment is it? You have developed a method of saving a bit of cash but done almost nothing to reduce significantly the number of persistent bags that you throw away. You are just replacing the re-used bags with black plastic bags. Next time u go to Makro - why don't u buy some biodegradable plastic bags (they have handles and come in at least 2 sizes - sandwich and bin and are as cheap as the normal ones) and use these instead of the black bags? they can even be reused to further reduce throw-aways.

I think you should concentrate on preaching to the indigenous population rather than a few farang posters here.

[wolf5370]

No no, you are not wrong. Paper bags are made of wood, trees. And trees and grow again. It's called renewable. Plastic is made of oil and thus not renewable.

So paper bags are good for the environment, not only because they are biodegradable, but also because they are made of renewable sources.

One more time, to be clear, most things we make, and packaging in this case, are deleterious to the environment. Paper bags are energy hogs and thus have a pretty high carbon footprint. It takes quite a bit of fossil fuels to make them. And the manufacture of them damages water quality to a significant extent. They really are not environmentally friendly. While paper pulp can be regrown, the fossil fuels require to do that are significant.

Biodegradable bags have the advantage over paper in water pollution (ignoring the polluting effects of fertilizer, that is), but they still are energy hogs, and the quality of the bags suffer in comparison to other plastic bags.

Plastic shopping bags have disposal problems, can damage sea life, and can clutter up drains and such. Their manufacture releases slightly more air pollutants than the manufacture of paper, but not to a great extent. They do not take as much energy to produce as paper.

Reusable bags have probably the least impact on the environment, but they are not suited for every usage, and they require more active action by the user.

Paper, as it is made today, is almost certainly not the answer. Probably, some combination of reusable and plastic bags would work the best, particularly with one caveat. Recycling. Recycling plastic bags would be even more energy efficient. But that takes a commitment from government, industry, and the population at large. Does Thailand have the mindset to do this? Would Thais bother to separate the trash into rubbish and recyclables? In California, this is pretty much a part of the culture as well as a viable business. And for different reasons, in the Philippines, there is some recycling. The destitute, often children, scour the dumps to pull out anything which can be recycled for a few pesos.

Without recycling, from a purely environmental standpoint, plastic shopping bags edge out paper and maybe slightly edge out biodegradable plastic, depending on your focus. But with recycling, plastic bags hold a much better edge. But if Thailand does not have recycling centers, if the people are not willing to go to the effort, then the fact that plastic bags can be recycled means nothing.

I think charging for shopping bags is one good step. But a concerted effort by the government in conjunction with industry to make recycling viable and profitable is needed to get the Thai people behind the effort. Perhaps using that 1 baht charge for a bag should not go to the store, but to the government to help develop the recycling industry would be a good step.

I saw a documentary once that was related and I found quite interesting. It was comparing plastic bags to paper bags (and of course bio-degradable bags came into it). As part of the documentary they went to a landfill site that had been used for decades. In the oldest part, they dug down (with a crane) and found newspapers from between the wars. This was in England, so plenty of rain etc. It turned out that the microbes that eat paper are killed off by the methane that the dump gave off and paper things could actually survive a very long time in such conditions. Where as plastic lasted around ten years. Bio-degradable plastics varied from a month to about 6 months - depending if they were degradable by sun light or being buried.

I often say no to bags and straws at 7-11. Never been a problem, At my local they now ask me if I want straw/bags - and even thank me when I say no.

Oh, and someone said the plastic bags filled with fizz was so people didn't have to buy the whole bottle - in my experience its so they can return the bottle (or take it in for reprocessing and get some money that way).

I just gave away 12 sacks of plastic water and drink bottles (that I had collected in just the past 3 months!!! ) to some neighbours so they could get some money for recycling them.

Edited July 2, 2010 by wolf5370

[Adiccavamso]

Another good solution is biodegradeable plastic bags. They sell them in Makro and are very cheap - just like normal in quality and price. Plastic bags are needed for so many things these days that I think this might be the long-term answer, perhaps coupled with a price increase for non-bio bags. Money talks!

That's good to know...my wife sells organic veg in the market where everyone uses plastic - from the farmers through wholesellers to retailers...and I tred to find alternatives by approaching Thai manufacturers but their producs are so much more expensive, even when bought in bulk. Plasic is cheap and when someone is working on a profit margin of five percent, price matters! I shall check out Makro.

[tombkk]

Totally agree about leaving the packing in the stores.

"One little known fact about plastic bags is they cause immense damage to undersea life." - only with some of the posters on this thread who have some truly bizarre ideas about environmental issues.

The "Great Pacific Garbage Patch" has not been mentioned in this tread yet. It appears that plastic is causing more damage that "only" choking turtles.

Some websites for reference, Google has more:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/great-pacific-garbage-patch.htm

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/the-worlds-rubbish-dump-a-garbage-tip-that-stretches-from-hawaii-to-japan-778016.html

[JetsetBkk]

Totally agree about leaving the packing in the stores.

"One little known fact about plastic bags is they cause immense damage to undersea life." - only with some of the posters on this thread who have some truly bizarre ideas about environmental issues.

The "Great Pacific Garbage Patch" has not been mentioned in this tread yet. It appears that plastic is causing more damage that "only" choking turtles.

Some websites for reference, Google has more:

http://science.howst...rbage-patch.htm

http://www.independe...pan-778016.html

Scary:

A "plastic soup" of waste floating in the Pacific Ocean is growing at an alarming rate and now covers an area twice the size of the continental United States, scientists have said.

Somehow I don't think a scientist actually said that. But it makes good copy for the "Independent".

[Deeral]

I had an interesting conversation about plastic bags at a University yesterday. A group of students aged between 19 to about 50.

It basically went like this.

"What about plastic bags?"

"There are too many of them"

"What should we do?"

"Put them in bins"

"Ok - then what do we do with the bins when they are full?"

..........no answer..................

i swear to god! This was the response of the "creme-de-la-creme" of Thailand's intellectual thinkers!!!!!

[slapout]

What is surprising is that you expected more from the students. Eliminate 'throw in bin' and 'burn', then ask the students to come up with a solution to the problem and see what you get.

[Deeral]

What is surprising is that you expected more from the students. Eliminate 'throw in bin' and 'burn', then ask the students to come up with a solution to the problem and see what you get.

when it comes to planning a seminar I prefer to elicit from the conversation organically, if I start throwing in stuff like you suggest, how will I get them to think round all aspects of the subject?

[bangkokburning]

Every time I decline a bag - it is met with first confusion and then a smile.

Mai ow tung khun krap, mii laew.

[Deeral]

Don't underestimate the power of the plastics companies - the local factory that finally produces a plastic bag may be small, but the companies that supply the materials are multinational and without a serious change in business plan they have a vested interest in prolonged and prolific production of plastic bags.

contracts with companies like Carrefour and Big C are huge lucrative contracts too.......