Prostitution : Is It Wrong To Pay For Sex ?

[Ulysses G.]

There is nothing wrong with being a sex worker either, but some people need to look down on others to make themselves feel better.

I have great admiration for the sex workers, they please many, I question if they enjoy their profession as much as some would have us believe.......in order to justify payment for sex........

Some do and some don't. It is much like any other job in that way.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[473geo]

There is nothing wrong with being a sex worker either, but some people need to look down on others to make themselves feel better.

I have great admiration for the sex workers, they please many, I question if they enjoy their profession as much as some would have us believe.......in order to justify payment for sex........

Some do and some don't. It is much like any other job in that way.

Clearly you also have observed it is not the same in other ways...........you're getting there UG........

[sarahsbloke]

Interesting points here, Thai women perhaps are more honest and open about their sexuality, can you guys go on to explain why the Thai ladies involved in prostitution are a little coy about their profession if their occupation is so readily accepted in Thailand. Why many relatives of the families I know, appear to work in Pattaya bakeries!!! I think there is plenty of bread and dough made in Pattaya but not in hot ovens!!

In my opinion, poverty plays a part in the amount of prostitution available in Thailand, also fuelled by an unswerving loyalty to support impoverished parents by any means possible. Though obviously not in all cases. Sex may well be a natural instinctive act, but not many natural activities have 20 males serving one female in a day, or perhaps Sokal you have a chart to highlight my possible misconception.

Face is everything, you can do whatever you like in Thailand as long as nobody knows about it or at least doesn't speak about it in public. Thai businessmen believe it is OK to cheat and steal but I bet they don't tell. Police and government officials take bribes and are corrupt, but few wear hats with 'bribe me' written on them. Everyone in the village knows what the girl in the Pattaya bakery is doing, few are rude enough to say it out loud in public.

Poverty does play a part in prostitution, but not on the basic food and place to sleep level in Thailand. More on a Honda Jazz and latest mobile phone level.

20 males doing 1 female in a day is not the way of Thai prostitution, most girls want long time, 1 whole night with repeat business.

When I ask a girl why she does what she does, the usual answer is looking for a husband .... although I don't live in Pattaya, so it might be different there.

[GuestHouse]

Long article, 5 years old, but a quick scan says it might be worth a full read.

Learning the Thai sex trade

Some excerpts from the above article. ........

...... End of quotes.

The question becomes is paying for sex responsible for the other abuses like trafficking. Or is the publicity on trafficking a way to stop people from paying for sex.

The sex pats would contend that the NGO’s don’t have any information to support their claims. I think the writer of the article agrees.

I guess the idea that a demand will create a supply evades you.

But also from the very same article that you have quoted.... The author states:

Learning the Thai sex trade

Trafficking is a real problem and, though there is little prospect of it being measured accurately, circumstances suggest that it will grow. ……….

What must concern those who, like me, take a liberal view of the sex trade is that underage prostitution is an inevitable part of it. Teenagers, research shows, are brought into the trade not principally because of the dedicated paedophiles we read so much about, but because youth is a valuable commodity. Men like to buy sex with young women: the young poor are the most easily obtained for them.

While the article you quote opens the door for you to question the statistics, it's author firmly closes the door on you being able to deny that underage prostitution is an inevitable part of Thailand's sex trade.

[GuestHouse]

Sex surveys are notoriously defective.

The people commissioning the surveys always have an axe to grind (usually to prove sex is wrong)

And a handful of posts later.

An interview was recently done with a group of p4p ladyboys in Bangkok, in the interview the LBs stated they all had working equipment and between 80 and 90 percent of their customers expected to be 'the letterbox' rather than 'the postman'. I see no reason for either them or the interviewer to lie about this.

Not unless the interviewer had an axe to grind, which you have already told us they always do.

[GuestHouse]

There is nothing wrong with being a sex worker either, but some people need to look down on others to make themselves feel better.

I agree with you UG, and as I pointed out earlier, it is largely those on the side of 'defending paying for sex' who resort to the pejorative terms 'whore, 'ho, hooker' while those questioning paying for sex are largely using the neutral term 'Prostitute'.

[kpmsprtd]

Welcome back to those who recently rejoined the conversation. We had a fairly nice run of staying within the bounds of logic, fact, and reason, but all things must change.

Do you really think it's the Thai Visa crowd out searching for underage girls in Thailand or anywhere else? News Flash: It's not. Do you not see the difference between our patronage of the beer bar ladies in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, and the seeking out of underage girls?

Not one person here has defended sexual relations, paid or unpaid, with an underage girl. It's an activity that has nothing to do with the people who are commenting on this thread. I am quite sure that we would all agree that it is wrong for underage girls to be forced to do any job, be it prostitution, maid work, or sweat shop work. We all know the countries/cultures from which men seek out underage girls. Why are you indicting the wrong crowd? Why not spend your time and effort going after men from those countries/cultures who actually do seek out underage girls in Thailand and elsewhere?

For the record, I have never done an underage girl. No one here has unless we've got a rare psychopath. Why try to confuse the conversation? I really don't understand, and I really haven't understood since your first posts of the thread.

[mark45y]

Long article, 5 years old, but a quick scan says it might be worth a full read.

Learning the Thai sex trade

Some excerpts from the above article. ........

...... End of quotes.

The question becomes is paying for sex responsible for the other abuses like trafficking. Or is the publicity on trafficking a way to stop people from paying for sex.

The sex pats would contend that the NGO’s don’t have any information to support their claims. I think the writer of the article agrees.

I guess the idea that a demand will create a supply evades you.

But also from the very same article that you have quoted.... The author states:

Learning the Thai sex trade

Trafficking is a real problem and, though there is little prospect of it being measured accurately, circumstances suggest that it will grow. ……….

What must concern those who, like me, take a liberal view of the sex trade is that underage prostitution is an inevitable part of it. Teenagers, research shows, are brought into the trade not principally because of the dedicated paedophiles we read so much about, but because youth is a valuable commodity. Men like to buy sex with young women: the young poor are the most easily obtained for them.

While the article you quote opens the door for you to question the statistics, it's author firmly closes the door on you being able to deny that underage prostitution is an inevitable part of Thailand's sex trade.

Just to keep the facts straight. What is underage to you? Because there are degrees of wrongness in the pay for play trade. Are the great majority of underage participants men or women? How old are the great majority? 17 years to 18 years of age? Because if you are talking about pre pubescent girls, I have never seen it. If you are talking about a 17 year old go go dancer, maybe, but how the heck can I tell the difference between a 17 year old Thai woman with make up to the nines and an 18 year old Thai woman on stage with stage lighting. BTW it used to be legal in Florida for 16 year old women to dance at strip clubs, so this is not only a Thai thing. In fact if you read the newspapers 16 and 17 year old women are being kicked out of American strip clubs on a daily basis. And since I was in the business in the States I can tell you I got applications almost daily from underage women who I didn't hire even though they had false ID's and looked to be in their 20's. No one forced these women to apply for jobs in the states and I suspect no one does in Thailand either.

[GuestHouse]

Welcome back to those who recently rejoined the conversation. We had a fairly nice run of staying within the bounds of logic, fact, and reason, but all things must change.

Do you really think it's the Thai Visa crowd out searching for underage girls in Thailand or anywhere else? News Flash: It's not. Do you not see the difference between our patronage of the beer bar ladies in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, and the seeking out of underage girls?

Not one person here has defended sexual relations, paid or unpaid, with an underage girl. It's an activity that has nothing to do with the people who are commenting on this thread. I am quite sure that we would all agree that it is wrong for underage girls to be forced to do any job, be it prostitution, maid work, or sweat shop work. We all know the countries/cultures from which men seek out underage girls. Why are you indicting the wrong crowd? Why not spend your time and effort going after men from those countries/cultures who actually do seek out underage girls in Thailand and elsewhere?

For the record, I have never done an underage girl. No one here has unless we've got a rare psychopath. Why try to confuse the conversation? I really don't understand, and I really haven't understood since your first posts of the thread.

For the record, the source that Mark45y quoted in defense of his beliefs with regard to NGOs' Human Trafficking and statistics thereon also included the paragraph I have quoted.

Are you suggesting we should accept the part of the article Mark45y quoted and ignore the part he chose not to?

What must concern those who, like me, take a liberal view of the sex trade is that underage prostitution is an inevitable part of it.

Maybe it doesn't concern those who would like to deny the fact that underage prostitution is an inextricable part of Thailand's sex trade.

Should I put up links of news reports of westerners arrested and convicted for sex with underage prostitutes in Thailand - or would that bring about another bout of denial.

Teenagers, research shows, are brought into the trade not principally because of the dedicated paedophiles we read so much about, but because youth is a valuable commodity. Men like to buy sex with young women: the young poor are the most easily obtained for them.

[GuestHouse]

Just to keep the facts straight. What is underage to you?

Since I'm not a customer the question is better directed at those who are.

And there's been plenty of discussion in the past here on TV on what constitutes 'barely legal' - Which supports the view of the author you partially quoted that is the demand for young prostitutes that drives the underage sex trade more than does the pedophiles we read do much about.

I'm beginning to understand why you only partially quoted.

[mark45y]

There is nothing wrong with being a sex worker either, but some people need to look down on others to make themselves feel better.

I agree with you UG, and as I pointed out earlier, it is largely those on the side of 'defending paying for sex' who resort to the pejorative terms 'whore, 'ho, hooker' while those questioning paying for sex are largely using the neutral term 'Prostitute'.

Boy, Guesthouse I’m glad you are back. Perhaps you missed my post about pay for play being right or wrong for lady boys.

I been stressing out about it and need your advice.

Is a 6’3” lady boy who really wants to be a lady emasculated when she/he has sex for money?

Is a customer who uses said lady boy emasculated and does it ruin his chances of a normal relationship with a lady boy for the future.

Some guys want long term relationships with lady boys you know.

Have you seen a lot of NGO articles about trafficked lady boys? Or abused lady boys?

I’d actually like to meet the guy who abuses the 6 foot tall lady boys on Beach road.

I’m just guessing because I would of course defer to your googling ability at strange and out of the way information but I think maybe it is OK to pay for play with big middle aged lady boys.

The world is waiting for your pronouncements on the emasculating, trafficked and abused 6” tall lady boys. Don’t let us down.

PS. I don’t really think Hooker is a pejorative term. I am a history fan of the American Civil war and the term refers to General Hookers penchant for allowing his troops feminine companionship and laundry services during the war. When I say Hookers I fondly recall a period of American heroes and the women who supported them. Although STD’s put more soldiers out of action in the American Civil war than bullets, but historians don’t dwell on that strange and little known fact. Pay for play has always been there. Personally I find Hooker a more neutral term than Prostitute. In Thailand one has to be very careful how you say Korean because it is quite close the term for Prostitute. Perhaps we should use the flower analogies. They are nicer than hooker or prostitute.

[kpmsprtd]

It appears that the server problems are happening only to you, Mr. GuestHouse. Perhaps there's a conflict between the server's programming and your own.

[Svenn]

Funny when I was 19 and in Thailand I couldn't resist it... but once I had some real relationships with real girlfriends, it just seemed like much less attractive a prospect after that. There are so many problems: 1. you have to wear a condom, 2. she probably doesn't even enjoy it, and is unlikely to cum or even be wet, just passively lying there like a rock 3. you have to worry about cleanliness, 4. there's no emotional connection which is a large portion of the pleasure imho, 5. it's illegal and you lose serious cash. Maybe I'm too much of a romantic, but sex is only really pleasurable after you've chased a girl and then come together in a spontaneous moment. Maybe once I get married I'll be more of a mia-noi type guy

[kpmsprtd]

I agree with you for the most part, Svenn. But one reason for my occasional patronage, whether married or single at the time, is that the working girls sometimes allow me to do experimental things that I would not necessarily be able to do with the wife/girlfriend. In fact, I salute the working girls for their willingness to participate in--what shall we call it--role play...

[mark45y]

Funny when I was 19 and in Thailand I couldn't resist it... but once I had some real relationships with real girlfriends, it just seemed like much less attractive a prospect after that. There are so many problems: 1. you have to wear a condom, 2. she probably doesn't even enjoy it, and is unlikely to cum or even be wet, just passively lying there like a rock 3. you have to worry about cleanliness, 4. there's no emotional connection which is a large portion of the pleasure imho, 5. it's illegal and you lose serious cash. Maybe I'm too much of a romantic, but sex is only really pleasurable after you've chased a girl and then come together in a spontaneous moment. Maybe once I get married I'll be more of a mia-noi type guy

At some point in time you figure it out. Maybe someone teaches you, maybe you are a natural. Maybe some guys never do figure it out. In some things men are all the same and in some things women are all the same.

However, is it relevant to the pay for play argument if the woman enjoys it or not? I don’t hate anyone but my first wife came close. She threw my cat through a window. I’d had the cat for a long time. It was a Siamese cat. It didn’t like my wife and my wife didn’t like the cat.

Having said that no matter how angry I got my wife could trip my trigger. She knew the basics.

Even after our divorce she would come around for sex. My second wife never had a clue and she was opposed to sexual education.

But some people got it. Doesn’t make a difference if you are short or tall or skinny or fat or old or young. You either know or you don’t.

So if you can play a woman’s body like a piano does that make pay for play OK?

If she doesn’t jump up and take a shower and only lays there with a silly grin on her face mumbling unintelligible words have you performed a noble service or dastardly act.

And perhaps you are even more guilty because you have given her reinforcement, that paid for sex is good.

A poor farm girl, used to sweat and dirt all day long and at night chili peppers and unripe fruit and rancid crab all of a sudden eats Thai food that won’t give her diarrhea and finds a man with the tools to put a smile on her face along with a hello kitty purse and new cell phone. You certainly have positively reinforced an act that might under other circumstances have been reprehensible. You may have created a monster because she goes back to Issan and tells her friends. Yes, she does and Thai women know whether she is lying or not.

[GreenSnapper]

Have you seen a lot of NGO articles about trafficked lady boys? Or abused lady boys?

Of course not.

Ladyboys are still boys. And in the world of PC and feminist ideology, men and boys are just scum - not worth to mention. NGOs are heavily dominated by feminists, and that shows what they care and what they don't care.

[sarahsbloke]

Funny when I was 19 and in Thailand I couldn't resist it... but once I had some real relationships with real girlfriends, it just seemed like much less attractive a prospect after that. There are so many problems: 1. you have to wear a condom, 2. she probably doesn't even enjoy it, and is unlikely to cum or even be wet, just passively lying there like a rock 3. you have to worry about cleanliness, 4. there's no emotional connection which is a large portion of the pleasure imho, 5. it's illegal and you lose serious cash. Maybe I'm too much of a romantic, but sex is only really pleasurable after you've chased a girl and then come together in a spontaneous moment. Maybe once I get married I'll be more of a mia-noi type guy

1) No you don't, every Thai girl I have slept with said, you boyfriend, no condom, on the 3rd visit

2) Who cares, enjoyment is for men (quote from 'back to the future II')

3) I think the shower before sex is quite fun, usually 2 in the shower at the same time, I guess some guys are just dirty.

4) You are picking girls who don't like you, spend a bit more time in making your selection, smarten yourself up a bit.

5) It is much cheaper than my former UK wife who in all cost me 250UKP a shag (and a pretty poor shag it was) plus running expenses

I'm sure if you try marriage to a western lady you will soon change your mind, but you might be lucky not all western women could be as bad as my former wife.

Orgasms

During a conversation with my p4p live-in Thai lover one night

She says: How often did your former UK wife have an orgasm

I said: 2 or 3 times

She says incredulously: 2 or 3 times a night

I said: no 2 or 3 times in the 30 years we were married

I said: How often do you have an orgasm

She said: Every time I have sex, otherwise I wouldn't bother

@Guesthouse

My target female is aged 30-42. I may have made a mistake and had a 28 year old once, does that make me a pervert?

Edited July 26, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[Ulysses G.]

2) Who cares, enjoyment is for men (quote from 'back to the future II')

But surely you would agree the enjoyment is a lot better when she's shagging you back and/or cumming while you're in her right?

maybe you're right and I just haven't picked the right girls

It sounds like you have had bad luck. there are plenty of these girls who will show one an excellent time and either enjoy it themselves or put on an Oscar winning performance.

[Chunky1]

It does not just have to do with poor Thai women and supply and demand. There are many countries in the world with poor disadvantaged women that do not have the same following as Thai women.

Thai culture and Thai women are unique on how they view sex. Its only the misguided westerners on this thread that think they can label these women in 2 distinct groups, the ones that are "prostitutes" and the ones that are not.

I have to agree with Sokal on this

Thai ladies do seem to view sex and cash in a totally different way to other cultures (rich or poor)

There are also those foreigners who totally misjudge what is happening in Thai society, even the most traditional and conservative Thais (men and women) are getting plenty of sex, it just isn't out there for most people to see.

As a lady (not a prostitute) once said to me 'there are many men who want to have sex with me, and very little difference between them, so I might as well sleep with the ones who give me money and gold'

Her parents owned large citrus orchards and a juice processing business. She was in her last year of college and had everything. Beauty, brains and great future.

I was convinced the only reason she talked to me was to practice her English and internationalize her view of world affairs.

We all lived in Chiang Mai. I was going to Bangkok for a friends special 40th birthday party it was going to be a big bash. She asked if she could join us. I worried about the Uni girl from a small town in the big city. I was worried my friends in Bangkok might scare or offend her because the ladies were a bit on the trashy side. But she insisted on coming even though I warned her.

The first night she stayed with us I had a conservative evening planned so as not to upset her. I shouldn’t have worried. An hour after she arrived a young Thai guy pulled up to our hotel in a BMW to pick her up. He was an intern at a Bangkok hospital. She got home late. I had waited up for her like a worried father. When she arrived I questioned her like a father would. She laughed and said she didn’t lose her virginity. Why? Cause he didn’t offer a Honda Jazz. That’s what she wanted a new Honda Jazz. This is certainly not an isolated incident in my experience of the pay for play trade. Although I rarely agree with Sokal in this area of Thai women being unique I do come down on his side. Is it prostitution? Is it right or wrong? Is a Honda Jazz any different than a short time fee? Nope. As the man said in the old joke, “we already know what kind of lady your are we are just haggling about the price.”

the difference is that the girl who wants a house and car isn't going to end up getting HIV or becoming a drug addict like many of the prostitutes who sleep with a different punter every night of the week.

[deleted by MiG16 - lets leave out attacks on anyone, general or specific. cheers]

i don't criticize men for participating but you can end this silly charade about how great the industry is for the sex workers.

**maybe you will get super lucky and your daughter will one day have the opportunity to work in a brothel.

Edited July 26, 2010 by MiG16
please read the forum rules - MiG16

[sarahsbloke]

I am neither fat or lonely, but will admit to being over 50, so that does make me old ..... although my very young wife does say I am a 'very hansum man'. My skin colour is my own business.

I don't believe anyone on this thread has stated that they believe that prostitution is great .... for working women or working men ... that appears to be a figment of your prejudices. I also prefer girl on top, if I'm paying, I get to choose, so another faulty assumption on your part.

[deleted - by MiG16]

Edited July 26, 2010 by MiG16
please read the forum rules. also removed text from the quote that has now been deleted - MiG16

[jubby]

Go get e'm Chunky

[MiG16]

a couple of posts have been deleted

please refrain from using such vivid language. while we have allowed the topic to run, do keep in mind that this is a family oriented forum, and we still ask you maintain appropriate language, regardless of the nature of the topic.

a few other posts have also been edited to remove /alter some words

[sbk]

Well, good shot miggie, and well tried guys, You did pretty well having a decent discussion of a tricky subject but, like so often, courtesy falls by the wayside.

Time to close

//CLOSED//