Thailand Almost A Failed State - Surely A Failed Conscience

[jayjay0]

What we are seeing here is a confluence of many factors that have been building up for a very long time. The idea that getting the reds to back down and apologise will in some way make the world perfect again is wrong. There are many things in Thailand that have been set a certain way for a long time, but are now causing issues.

This is possibly the best statement I have read on the current situation for a long while.

This ridiculous idea that whoever can form a government is entitled to suppress the opposition in the name of "democracy" is at the very root of Thailand's current problems. Both sides are as bad as each other and enlisting the army, suppressing media, imprisoning opponents without trial indefinitely, etc. etc. just adds to the mounting problems.

Thailand needs someone powerful to unite both sides.

I will suggest the United Nations, but only because I have a sense of humour.

I agree that the government should not be allowed to suppress opposition. They should actually take it to heart and look for truth in it. But that is not going to happen on this planet for a long time.

They should however and must suppress opposition when it starts to invade hospitals close down honest business without any thought to the thousands of honest hard working citizens they are depriving of a livelihood. And let us remember they had weapons. Or were the six soldiers shot dead on April 19 just faking it.

[symbiosis]

I agree. Failed states are invariably - at best - thinly veiled dictatorships in which - at best - the military is always lurking around svengali-like in the background. Pakistan is a failed state too.

[phetaroi]

What a nonsense article from that warmonger Sopon. From the King of those articles. He won't be happy til every Red is swinging from the rafters, neck first. I stopped reading this bozo's op/eds a long time ago.

How do you know it's nonsense if you didn't read it?

[jayjay0]

Stupidity rules at the offices of the Nation. The yearly failed state list published two weeks ago, clearly does not have anything to do with the red shirt horror. Maybe it has to do something with outright idiots that send the army into the streets to kill people two consecutive years in a row. It might have to do something with the horror that hundreds of thousands of tourists and businessmen met when the yellow shirts had occupied the airports. it might even have to do something with crooked army generals buying weaponsystems that will never be used (But the kickback is fine) aircraft carries without aircrafts, bomb scanners and so on or maybe with nation supported politicians taking bribes from bankrupt companies (Democrat party) it might have to do with brothels ran by elitists, corrupted police or even with crooked yellow shirt leaders who think that the poor are dump and therefore provoke them? Or has it something to do with the lack of press freedom in which the nation in a major beneficiary? It has in any case nothing to do with the red shirts and there justified demands.

Justified demands , from the red shirts??? ???

OMG, where do you live, mars?

I bet he has a sign on his back saying kick me.

[DickFarang]

Poor journalism as usual.

[jayjay0]

"That's exactly the point. The red shirts remain unrepentant. Some red shirts continue to challenge the government and its ability to enforce the law. They have come out with a news magazine "Red Power" and a new TV station "Asia Update" with the intention of pursuing their original objective - getting rid of the Abhisit government as soon as possible."

Oh my God. They are unrepentant, they are challenging the goverment and have media outlets to voice their opinions!!! This of course should not be allowed in a democracy. Stamp on them now before it all gets out of hand.

You really have to laugh red shirts open there own radio station publish there own magazine and articles like this one get printed in a national newspaper.

Then you listen to government opposition saying they are being suppressed.

Just for a moment I would like to interject a bit of reality into this conversation.

The article could have been written about any nation. All it takes is a bitter dislike and willingness to mislead the public. If the writer had chosen to he could have writen a article praising Thailand to the point where one is led to believe Thailand is the role model for the world.

[Thai at Heart]

If the writer had chosen to he could have writen a article praising Thailand to the point where one is led to believe Thailand is the role model for the world.

The funny thing is that once in a while you will run into a person who truly believes that his country is a role model for the world. Have met a few here, and funnily enough one other place. Greece.

What these places do have in common is neighbours that they take great pleasure in proclaiming their current superiority over, as though being 90th out of 100 in the world is something to be proud of because their neighbours are 91st and onward.

[phetaroi]

I must say, I am quite over this crap...

Corruption - (n.) The act of corrupting or of impairing integrity, virtue, or moral principle; the state of being corrupted or debased; loss of purity or integrity; depravity; wickedness; impurity; bribery.

Unless the whole of the Thai Society understands why upholding the law is so important, nothing will ever change...

I think you're right. And your thesis needs to be examined more carefully. It is fortunate that to some extent Thai people, in general, are comparatively gentle and nice people. Because if they were not, Thailand would be an awful place...just as it was on May 19. I think that the naysayers ought to simply go back and read hundreds of threads right on this forum that deal with the issues of corruption and integrity and bribery and the lack of upholding the law. I could start listing examples of COMMONLY ignored and abused laws by people at all levels of Thai society. Instead, I'll simply ask a question, on a scale of one to ten, where would you put Thais and Thailand in terms of being either "a society that inherently respects the law" (10) to "a society that tends to flout the law when the law does not suit their own personal best interest" (1).

I'm not going to blame the red shirts (although in the current crisis they certainly flouted the law), or the yellow shirts (in a past crisis they certainly flouted the law), or the ruling elite (although over time they have certainly flouted the law), or the guying selling fake products on the street, or the farmer who uses illegal chemicals on his crops as insecticide, or the guy openly selling porn at Pantip, or the cops taking bribes on the street, or the illegal prostitutes working openly on the city's "main" street, or the apartment manager who prefers cash rental payments so he can hide funds that should be paid in taxes...I could go on...but I will simply say that Thais from all social classes have exactly the form of government they have earned. No external force placed the Thai legal system or governmental system on the Thais. They created it and they "perfected" what they created, and they glorify it. They are reaping what they alone sowed. The Burmese didn't do it to them. The Khmers didn't do it to them. The Malaysians didn't do it to them. Laos didn't do it to them. America didn't do it to them. They alone did it to themselves.

[phetaroi]

<BR><BR>I wouldn't rush to put Thailand into the same basket as say, Somalia, <BR><BR>

You are absolutely correct, Thailand is not comparable to Somalia or several other countries. But note that the title of the article includes the phrase "Almost A Failed State".

[geriatrickid]

As has been stated several times, the root of the problem is Corruption. Until it is stopped, nothing can change. It must come from the top down and that means being transparent and honest. It starts at the very top of the hierarchy.

In respect to the recent acts of violence and vandalism, it was wrong. Unfortunately, the precedent was set when nothing was done with the illegal occupation of the airport and the related protests. No, I am not justifying the recent violence, but when the law is not enforced fairly and consistently, people do not respect the rule of law. Hence, the complete lack of respect for the government by some. Mr. Abhisit wasn't responsible for the mishandling of the airport situation, but he inherited the legacy. That is what corruption and dereliction of duty brings. It hinders and impedes that try to move forward.

[phetaroi]

When a once respected newspaper publishes this kind of dangerous literature, yes we can tell that Thailand is "Almost a failed state; surely a failed conscience"... thanks to the people writing such infamous texts.

"The Nation" should think twice before to publish. They'll have a part of responsibility in the possible coming civil war.

Is this article "dangerous"? It may be.

But should freedom of speech be respected in a nation that calls itself a democracy? I think it should.

This is a very strong op-ed piece, but I don't think it has crossed a line. For example, which is more accurate -- this op-ed piece or the PM saying that everything is back to normal? The latter seems innocuous enough, but I think it was very dangerous to claim that.

[jayjay0]

As has been stated several times, the root of the problem is Corruption. Until it is stopped, nothing can change. It must come from the top down and that means being transparent and honest. It starts at the very top of the hierarchy.

In respect to the recent acts of violence and vandalism, it was wrong. Unfortunately, the precedent was set when nothing was done with the illegal occupation of the airport and the related protests. No, I am not justifying the recent violence, but when the law is not enforced fairly and consistently, people do not respect the rule of law. Hence, the complete lack of respect for the government by some. Mr. Abhisit wasn't responsible for the mishandling of the airport situation, but he inherited the legacy. That is what corruption and dereliction of duty brings. It hinders and impedes that try to move forward.

In my opinion none of this would have happened if the Government Abhist formed took steps immediately to punish the Yellow Shirt leaders and backers. Abhist promised transparency. What does that show us when he lets the Yellow Shirt leaders run loose with no restraints and puts one of there biggest backers in his cabinet. I can see through that. At least he was honest about the transparency.

[dumball]

When a small child is asked the question "What do you want to be when you grow up" and the answer given by this small child is "I want to be rich and powerfull " , what hopes do you think there are that a whole nation can be turned upside down and converted to honest , law abiding citizens ? Given even a whole decade of attempts to achieve this , I feel are highly improbable , given the mind set of a nation not open to change or the will to do anything other than carry on in the accepted 'Mode accompli' .

I think of maipenrai as sweeping dust under the carpet , too lazy to bend over to pick it up , this has been an attitude for far too many generations , the carpet has become too high to view the other person and reach any form of attonement or settlement of past grievances .

[symbiosis]

I disagree with those that say "corruption is the root of the problem." Corruption is a big issue, but not as big as, say Indonesia.

The military and its historic meddling in government is the root of the problem. Look anywhere in the world where the military has been "let out of the can" by civilian authority and you will see that it never goes back for long. This is the real tragedy of Thailand now and for as far ahead as you care to look.

In any case, the military's largesse is a big part of the corruption problem.

Edited July 13, 2010 by symbiosis

[Tanaka]

What a nonsense article from that warmonger Sopon. From the King of those articles. He won't be happy til every Red is swinging from the rafters, neck first. I stopped reading this bozo's op/eds a long time ago.

You stopped reading his articles a long time ago? And yet now you are reviewing his latest one. Without reading it?

[chantorn]

Almost A Failed State?

I think it is a failed state already.

[bangon04]

" the anger of a people filled with self-righteousness and true patriotism."

Self righteousness in abundance, but True Patriotism ???? How does he define "true patriotism" in the Thai context of puerile nationalistic BS as it is brainwashed in Thai schools??

An alien concept in Thailand? Maybe they could found the True Patriotism Party for the next election.

[bangon04]

When a once respected newspaper publishes this kind of dangerous literature, yes we can tell that Thailand is "Almost a failed state; surely a failed conscience"... thanks to the people writing such infamous texts.

"The Nation" should think twice before to publish. They'll have a part of responsibility in the possible coming civil war.

Is this article "dangerous"? It may be.

But should freedom of speech be respected in a nation that calls itself a democracy? I think it should.

This is a very strong op-ed piece, but I don't think it has crossed a line. For example, which is more accurate -- this op-ed piece or the PM saying that everything is back to normal? The latter seems innocuous enough, but I think it was very dangerous to claim that.

It might be more dangerous if the same article were published in Thai daily newspapers, but very few of the Nation's regular readers have a vested interest in changing Thai society. It is a very 'safe' place to vent.

[MikeyIdea]

I must say, I am quite over this crap...

Corruption - (n.) The act of corrupting or of impairing integrity, virtue, or moral principle; the state of being corrupted or debased; loss of purity or integrity; depravity; wickedness; impurity; bribery.

Unless the whole of the Thai Society understands why upholding the law is so important, nothing will ever change...

............

I could go on...but I will simply say that Thais from all social classes have exactly the form of government they have earned. No external force placed the Thai legal system or governmental system on the Thais. They created it and they "perfected" what they created, and they glorify it. They are reaping what they alone sowed. The Burmese didn't do it to them. The Khmers didn't do it to them. The Malaysians didn't do it to them. Laos didn't do it to them. America didn't do it to them. They alone did it to themselves.

Very well written and exactly right

The gap between the big classes, the lower and the middle class is not shrinking really. Not surprisingly again because the members of those classes themselves create this phenomena

The main root cause of the problem Thailand has now is that the middle class and up for the last 25 years have adopted more efficient upbringing techniques for their children, OK it's still very Thai, very un-western and all that (and not as well done as e.g. Singapore and Hong Kong), but fact is that the middle class is running away from the relatively uneducated lower classes in this area, not a surprise. I don't have the figures at hand but I am sure that the current government routes much more money to the lower classes than what happened 25 years ago. It takes more than that

It’s not enough because many of the lower class don’t want to see the importance of them doing their part. I see this every day, at work I have the middle class and in the neighbourhood that I love I have the lower class. I can discuss upbringing techniques and the importance of a child feeling secure to build self confidence, don’t scare your kids for example, and the middle class asks valid questions in return, they think and implement. I take the opportunity to mention the same thing when my poor neighbours comment on that my daughter is so forward and then I see their 3 year old crying later the same evening because the parents scared him of ghosts to make him stay close to the house. I don’t talk about it with them unless invited in one way or another as I know they don’t want to be reminded how much difference what I told them 10 years ago actually did compared to their own children

The solution to narrow class differences is education, how to more than the what… And the people need to take it on themselves too, it doesn’t work to push it on to them

[MikeyIdea]

As has been stated several times, the root of the problem is Corruption.

............

I think that is wrong. Corruption is as someone else also put it only a bi-product.

Education is the root cause and the solution. Exterminate corruption in Thailand (good luck by the way) and you still have a middle class running away from the lower class

Edited July 14, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

When a small child is asked the question "What do you want to be when you grow up" and the answer given by this small child is "I want to be rich and powerfull " , what hopes do you think there are that a whole nation can be turned upside down and converted to honest , law abiding citizens ? Given even a whole decade of attempts to achieve this , I feel are highly improbable , given the mind set of a nation not open to change or the will to do anything other than carry on in the accepted 'Mode accompli' .

I think of maipenrai as sweeping dust under the carpet , too lazy to bend over to pick it up , this has been an attitude for far too many generations , the carpet has become too high to view the other person and reach any form of attonement or settlement of past grievances .

This part

I think of maipenrai as sweeping dust under the carpet , too lazy to bend over to pick it up

You clearly see this from a western perspective, I hope you know that the Thais certainly don't think of it that way

[Insight]

As has been stated several times, the root of the problem is Corruption.

............

I think that is wrong. Corruption is as someone else also put it only a bi-product.

Education is the root cause and the solution. Exterminate corruption in Thailand (good luck by the way) and you still have a middle class running away from the lower class

Bingo.

[craigt3365]

As has been stated several times, the root of the problem is Corruption.

............

I think that is wrong. Corruption is as someone else also put it only a bi-product.

Education is the root cause and the solution. Exterminate corruption in Thailand (good luck by the way) and you still have a middle class running away from the lower class

Yeah...that is truly a problem. Lack of education. Same story around the world....but corruption is really bad here. Even in the US, with a high standard of education, we have corruption. Not sure how to get rid of it!?!?!?!?!?!

[Democrat]

Quote Asiawatcher

"The Police are a disgrace and care nothing about law enforcement - they use the law to extract money from the public at every opportunity and nothing is done as they ARE the police"

This money the police extract where does it go? Who gets it?

Edited July 14, 2010 by Democrat

[tingtongfarang]

Quote Asiawatcher

"The Police are a disgrace and care nothing about law enforcement - they use the law to extract money from the public at every opportunity and nothing is done as they ARE the police"

This money the police extract where does it go? Who gets it?

Think its safe to say they dont donate it to save the children fund, my guess is in thier pockets and some gets spent on mianoys,

[roamer]

The term "failed state" has been used so often and so widely it no longer has a coherent definition. It therefore makes little sense to argue whether Thailand is, or at risk of, being something which no longer has a clear definition except in the most extreme examples, Somalia being an obvious candidate.

If on the other hand I had to pick out a nation where deep social and political divides, entrenched unyielding interests and a score of other factors were creating the potential for an explosive conflagration then Thailand would be pretty far up my list.

[thailien8]

The term "failed state" has been used so often and so widely it no longer has a coherent definition. It therefore makes little sense to argue whether Thailand is, or at risk of, being something which no longer has a clear definition except in the most extreme examples, Somalia being an obvious candidate.

If on the other hand I had to pick out a nation where deep social and political divides, entrenched unyielding interests and a score of other factors were creating the potential for an explosive conflagration then Thailand would be pretty far up my list.

Agreed, and I would like to thank The Nation's Khun Sopon for reminding us of why the Reds were able to invade Bangkok, hold us hostage, commit savage arson attacks, and why they could try it all again -- Thaksin Shinawatra lives, wherever he is, his precious face still lost.

Just think -- if Thaksin died tomorrow, would we Bangkokians finally be able to exhale? I sure would. The chances of another bloody Red invasion of our peaceful city would go from only too likely to almost nil, without Thaksin.

Khun Abhisit understands the needs of Thailand's poor people, and is trying to help. Without Thaksin's revenge to deal with, Abhisit could flourish into Thailand's greatest ever Prime Minister, the leader Thailand needs to avoid becoming a failed state.

[MikeyIdea]

Quote Asiawatcher

"The Police are a disgrace and care nothing about law enforcement - they use the law to extract money from the public at every opportunity and nothing is done as they ARE the police"

This money the police extract where does it go? Who gets it?

Think its safe to say they dont donate it to save the children fund, my guess is in thier pockets and some gets spent on mianoys,

tingtongfarang and democrat, I invite you to support yourself, your wife and your children on a little bit more than 4,000 bath per month. After you have done that for a year, and if you haven't already starved to death of course, please post again and tell me how it was

I dislike corrution as well as everybody else, it is destructive for the country, no doubt about that. But it is a system that has to be dismantled, it is not just corruption that has to be dismantled. A lot of the money the police collect goes up the ladder, the guys up the ladder want to get the money they paid to get their promotion back, paid because the guy who sat there before them wanted to get the money they paid out back too, others go to support their family and children. Too much goes to beer and partying of course and too little to the family. But then, that's not a police thing, that's fairly normal in the lower classes I would say.

I have had many both friends and relatives throughout the years, don't automatically assume that all police wants to take corruption money, some dislike it as much as you and I do.

This I just write to try to give some perception to some, I think the Royal Thai Police force overall is one of the weakest links to a good future for Thailand, it is no surprise that soldiers got much much more flowers than the police after the liberation of Bangkok. The Thai police force is too often a shame to the country but it is not without reason

[craigt3365]

Quote Asiawatcher

"The Police are a disgrace and care nothing about law enforcement - they use the law to extract money from the public at every opportunity and nothing is done as they ARE the police"

This money the police extract where does it go? Who gets it?

Think its safe to say they dont donate it to save the children fund, my guess is in thier pockets and some gets spent on mianoys,

tingtongfarang and democrat, I invite you to support yourself, your wife and your children on a little bit more than 4,000 bath per month. After you have done that for a year, and if you haven't already starved to death of course, please post again and tell me how it was

I dislike corrution as well as everybody else, it is destructive for the country, no doubt about that. But it is a system that has to be dismantled, it is not just corruption that has to be dismantled. A lot of the money the police collect goes up the ladder, the guys up the ladder want to get the money they paid to get their promotion back, paid because the guy who sat there before them wanted to get the money they paid out back too, others go to support their family and children. Too much goes to beer and partying of course and too little to the family. But then, that's not a police thing, that's fairly normal in the lower classes I would say.

I have had many both friends and relatives throughout the years, don't automatically assume that all police wants to take corruption money, some dislike it as much as you and I do.

This I just write to try to give some perception to some, I think the Royal Thai Police force overall is one of the weakest links to a good future for Thailand, it is no surprise that soldiers got much much more flowers than the police after the liberation of Bangkok. The Thai police force is too often a shame to the country but it is not without reason

Well put. I have several relatives in both the police and the army. One wanted a transfer but was asked for money to make it happen. He does not agree with this type of corruption, so he turned it down. Another was offered money to help another get a promotion. He ended up taking the money, but it was the first time and he is constantly worrying about it now.

So you are right. Not all are corrupt...but a great many are. As you point out, they are severely under paid and ill equipped. Plus, lousy upper management...if the guys at the top were to start acting properly, all this would be fixed. Unfortunately, they are only interested in what they can get out of the system...

[tingtongfarang]

Quote Asiawatcher

"The Police are a disgrace and care nothing about law enforcement - they use the law to extract money from the public at every opportunity and nothing is done as they ARE the police"

This money the police extract where does it go? Who gets it?

Think its safe to say they dont donate it to save the children fund, my guess is in thier pockets and some gets spent on mianoys,

tingtongfarang and democrat, I invite you to support yourself, your wife and your children on a little bit more than 4,000 bath per month. After you have done that for a year, and if you haven't already starved to death of course, please post again and tell me how it was

I dislike corrution as well as everybody else, it is destructive for the country, no doubt about that. But it is a system that has to be dismantled, it is not just corruption that has to be dismantled. A lot of the money the police collect goes up the ladder, the guys up the ladder want to get the money they paid to get their promotion back, paid because the guy who sat there before them wanted to get the money they paid out back too, others go to support their family and children. Too much goes to beer and partying of course and too little to the family. But then, that's not a police thing, that's fairly normal in the lower classes I would say.

I have had many both friends and relatives throughout the years, don't automatically assume that all police wants to take corruption money, some dislike it as much as you and I do.

This I just write to try to give some perception to some, I think the Royal Thai Police force overall is one of the weakest links to a good future for Thailand, it is no surprise that soldiers got much much more flowers than the police after the liberation of Bangkok. The Thai police force is too often a shame to the country but it is not without reason

Well put. I have several relatives in both the police and the army. One wanted a transfer but was asked for money to make it happen. He does not agree with this type of corruption, so he turned it down. Another was offered money to help another get a promotion. He ended up taking the money, but it was the first time and he is constantly worrying about it now.

So you are right. Not all are corrupt...but a great many are. As you point out, they are severely under paid and ill equipped. Plus, lousy upper management...if the guys at the top were to start acting properly, all this would be fixed. Unfortunately, they are only interested in what they can get out of the system...

Well...they could start by doing the job they are employed to do and start policing, there are enough people commiting real traffic violations ,jumping red lights just for a start...but i guess that would mean actualy working when standing around in a group at the side of the road collecting tea money for imagined violations is too easy,

Apart from that when they apply for job of police they know full well they have to be criminals or rather expected to be, this alone attracts a criminal element into the royal thai police,

The idea of reform has been thrown around since years in thailand but myself i cant imagine reform would be possible, Not possible to turn criminals into a real police force,

The best idea i have heard is to abolish the police force here as a whole and start again, as it is at the moment nobody has respect for them, they are a danger to the public.