Islamic Terrorists Kill 3 More In Thailand

[TokyoT]

Kerryd – interesting to get some perspective from someone that actually has their a55 in the grass out there - probably not quite as much grass in Afghanistan as back in Canada.

Would be interested in getting some specific feedback on what direction you feel the Thai government should take in the south. Based upon your post it appears you are not in favor of the “soft” approach. But in one of your posts in an earlier thread related to the issues in the south you indicate the situation is lose-lose either way. The problem is something needs to be done.

While I am not sold on the idea that the softer approach is the wrong approach. I think if the decision is made to take a hard approach it should be as hard as they can make it – to the point of really mobilizing the military to squelch descent. Then be able to maintain a large enough presence in the area to quickly deal additional blows as they become necessary. Due to majority population issues I think the utilization of mass force will be very difficult if not impossible. Therefore I think the government is really left will little choice except that of the “softer” approach.

IMHO part of the problem stems from inconsistency – not only in the actions taken to attempt to deal with the issue, but in regard to full utilization of resources to address this issue. The tsunami was certainly a disaster of major proportions that required the full attention of the government, and there are still items pending related to the tsunami that need to be address. Outside of those issues this situation should be the governments #1 priority – and this does not appear to be the case.

[Tornado]

Boon Mee

TokyoT

NaiGreg

Kerryd

TyreeD

could you please let us know your country of citizenship?

thanks.

[Kerryd]

Boon Mee

TokyoT

NaiGreg

Kerryd

TyreeD

could you please let us know your country of citizenship?

thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Canadian, eh !

(A Canadian living in Thailand, working in Afghanistan, eating Mexican and Greek food (sometimes) cooked by Nepalese and Indian employees, with South African doctors and a few Brits scattered about to keep up the old arguements about "real" football and the good old days of colonialism!)

Unfortunately, the way I see the problems in the south (of Thailand), it is still a lose-lose situation, no matter what the government does.

Go soft, the bad guys take advantage of you and eventually the general population gets upset because the violence continues and gets worse.

Go hard, the bad guys use that to their advantage (gaining sympathy by showing how cruel the government really is) and the general population turns against the government (despite the continued violence).

Try mediation ? These people don't want mediation, they want power. They want the ability to enforce their particular views on the rest of the population, regardless of what anybody else thinks.

Remember what I mentioned in my previous post. These people live by the idea that if you don't believe in the same ideas as they do, and follow their orders, then you are an infidel (Allah has closed your eyes and ears).

What to do then ? I would think a balanced approach would be best. Investigate and rectify their greivances where possible (the supposed discrimination they claim they face in education and jobs), but make it clear you won't tolerate the violence and terrorism.

From what I've read and seen, I think their supposed grievances are just a convenient excuse. They have their own schools. Complaining that they are discriminated against when it comes to jobs is something that people around the world use when they expect to be handed plum positions without earning them.

Another fall-out from our ever-increasing PC world, where the best candidate for a position may be passed over so that a lesser qualified "diverse" person can be given the job.

A large Canadian organization (Police Department) was severly criticized a few years ago for an employment advertisement that basically stated "English speaking males need not apply". They weren't allowed to recruit the best candidates for the positions, they had to recruit based on ethnicity and gender. Guess what happens when they are not able to attract enough "diverse" applicants ? They have to make do with fewer officers, because if they hire "English speaking males" to make up the numbers, they get charged with discrimination !

When you have a moment, take a (virtual) look at some of the various conflicts going on around the world (India-Pakistan, the Phillippines, the Middle East, Western China, Indonesia, Sudan, Thailand) Notice anything in common ? Even in Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt and some other countries, there is a common thread.

Things that make you go hmmmmm.

[Kerryd]

Tornado: here's one for you (not animated though)

[TokyoT]

Boon Mee

TokyoT

NaiGreg

Kerryd

TyreeD

could you please let us know your country of citizenship?

thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The United States of America – living in Asia since Jan 2000, currently in Tokyo, moving to Bangkok next month.

[jackr]

Would you class the US as terrorists? as they have tortured, used violence and physically intimidated to achieve ones political ends.. 

Kind of an interesting question coming from someone with US war planes as an Avatar?

The Tornado was a British, Italian, German venture many eons ago.

His nickname is Tornado, but his avatar shows Tomcats. Tomcats are US war birds.

So it is, the wings swung back sort of gives it away. Well spotted TT.

Tornado, couldn't you find a Tornado avatar?

[haha]

Boon Mee

TokyoT

NaiGreg

Kerryd

TyreeD

could you please let us know your country of citizenship?

thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

since we are asking, how about you?

[alex100]

Why is it every time someone disagress with american governmental actions certain members want the posts closed - You guys get with the program you have really be brainwashed by your governments propoganda - I was watching Live 8 last night and a very astute American John McEnroe the tennis player who now spends most of his time in UK commented when asked if he thinks the event would have an impact in the USA. he said and I quote " Not as much as in other places many Americans do not have a real awareness of what is happening anywhere esle in the world - after all only 33% have passports and of that many don't ever even leave the cuntry.

[TokyoT]

"... after all only 33% have passports and of that many don't ever even leave the cuntry."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don’t know if the percentage is correct or not, but it true that most Americans don’t travel outside the US, an even larger portion have never traveled outside Canada/Mexico/US. Many never travel outside the state they live in let alone outside the country.

In addition news of the happenings in the US tend to get spread around the world to a much larger extent than news of the happening around the world are spread by the media in the US. I mean just take a look at CNN - suppose to be a source of international news – give me a break.

[johnh101]

  I reported this thread and tried to get it closed.  It has gone too many directions.  From anti-Muslim, to anti-american to pro-saddam to anti-saddam and I'm sure there is some Black propoganda that I missed.

Why ?

It is a discussion and a bloody interesting one at that.

If it offends you so much don't read it.

[Boon Mee]

Boon Mee

TokyoT

NaiGreg

Kerryd

TyreeD

could you please let us know your country of citizenship?

thanks.

Gent~

Let’s try to stay on topic? What you’re doing is called ‘guan-dtinn’ in Thai.

What passport we carry is not pertinent to the subject at hand which is Buddhists as targets for Islamofascist terrorists in the south.

Have a nice day!

[chownah]

"... after all only 33% have passports and of that many don't ever even leave the cuntry."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don’t know if the percentage is correct or not, but it true that most Americans don’t travel outside the US, an even larger portion have never traveled outside Canada/Mexico/US. Many never travel outside the state they live in let alone outside the country.

In addition news of the happenings in the US tend to get spread around the world to a much larger extent than news of the happening around the world are spread by the media in the US. I mean just take a look at CNN - suppose to be a source of international news – give me a break.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is true that most Americans don't travel outside the country. Most Americans have, however, traveled outside the state they live in....I can't think of any who haven't and I lived there for more than..well, alot of years. To say that many never travel outside the state they live in is wrong...if I may be so bold. I do agree that too many Americans are ignorant of world affairs.

In an effort to explain how this may have come about let me point out that the distance from Seattle to Sacramento (the capital of California) is greater than the distance from London to Rome. In the US you can get in your car and drive non-stop on a fast super-highway for two days and nights and still be in the US. Not many countries in the world like that. The natural wonders in the US are many and it spans multiple climate zones.....the point is you can travel around the US for years and never get bored. I mention this not to justify Americans' ignorance of international events...but just to explain something that helps them into their state of ignorance.

Edited July 3, 2005 by chownah

[Boon Mee]

"... after all only 33% have passports and of that many don't ever even leave the cuntry."

I don’t know if the percentage is correct or not, but it true that most Americans don’t travel outside the US, an even larger portion have never traveled outside Canada/Mexico/US. Many never travel outside the state they live in let alone outside the country.

In addition news of the happenings in the US tend to get spread around the world to a much larger extent than news of the happening around the world are spread by the media in the US. I mean just take a look at CNN - suppose to be a source of international news – give me a break.

their state of ignorance.

Hey, do we really need this?

You want to start a American-Bashing Thread, do so but here we're discussing head-chopping in the south...

[chownah]

"... after all only 33% have passports and of that many don't ever even leave the cuntry."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don’t know if the percentage is correct or not, but it true that most Americans don’t travel outside the US, an even larger portion have never traveled outside Canada/Mexico/US. Many never travel outside the state they live in let alone outside the country.

In addition news of the happenings in the US tend to get spread around the world to a much larger extent than news of the happening around the world are spread by the media in the US. I mean just take a look at CNN - suppose to be a source of international news – give me a break.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

their state of ignorance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, do we really need this?

You want to start a American-Bashing Thread, do so but here we're discussing head-chopping in the south...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice editing job. Makes it look like I'm bashing someone. If anyone reads my comment you'll see that it is entirely not in a bashing mode and Boon Mee has done a great job of editing out my intent. Wonder why?

I was responding to a post by TokyoT and I thought it was not accurate. Boon Mee, why don't you go bash TokyoT for being off topic? Why pick on little old Chownah? And Boon Mee, why are you going off topic to reply to me in the bashing style you have used here?

And by the way, I'm still wondering if you know what it means to be wrong.

Edited July 3, 2005 by chownah

[Boon Mee]

"... after all only 33% have passports and of that many don't ever even leave the cuntry."

I don’t know if the percentage is correct or not, but it true that most Americans don’t travel outside the US, an even larger portion have never traveled outside Canada/Mexico/US. Many never travel outside the state they live in let alone outside the country.

In addition news of the happenings in the US tend to get spread around the world to a much larger extent than news of the happening around the world are spread by the media in the US. I mean just take a look at CNN - suppose to be a source of international news – give me a break.

their state of ignorance.

Hey, do we really need this?

You want to start a American-Bashing Thread, do so but here we're discussing head-chopping in the south...

Nice editing job. Makes it look like I'm bashing someone. If anyone reads my comment you'll see that it is entirely not in a bashing mode and Boon Mee has done a great job of editing out my intent. Wonder why?

I was responding to a post by TokyoT and I thought it was not accurate. Boon Mee, why don't you go bash TokyoT for being off topic? Why pick on little old Chownah? And Boon Mee, why are you going off topic to reply to me in the bashing style you have used here?

And by the way, I'm still wondering if you know what it means to be wrong.

I didn't edit out the main thrust of your post, chownah - to wit: "The natural wonders in the US are many and it spans multiple climate zones.....the point is you can travel around the US for years and never get bored. I mention this not to justify Americans' ignorance of international events...but just to explain something that helps them into their state of ignorance."

While it might not pass the litmus test of pure bashing, your choice of words is questionable. To call someone 'ignorant' is just that, no matter how hard or which way you try to spin it...

[dee_jai_maak_maak]

"... after all only 33% have passports and of that many don't ever even leave the cuntry."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In fairness to the septics they do come from a huge country, so it's perfectly possible to holiday in various climates and environments without ever needing to cross a border.

Instead of taking the family to Thailand or Spain to rerax on a beach they can go to Florida (I think). Wanna go skiing? Go to Lake Tahoe. And so on.

In the UK we HAVE to travel abroad to enjoy any kind of decent leisure activity such as diving or skiing, so we cross borders more than the yanks do.

Of course, some of them are just lazy f**kers .

[TokyoT]

When did calling someone ignorant become a bash? I am an American and I take no offense to comments such as these in regard to a general level of ignorance in the US in regard to various topics (probably also has something to do with a semblance of agreement on my part). None of the posts implied that ALL Americans were ignorant.

Merriam-Webster dictionary

Ignorant: destitute of knowledge or education : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified

Ignorant is not stupid – basically just means you don’t have the knowledge in regard to a specific item/issue. A genius can still be ignorant in regard to a number of things. And ignorance can be fixed by simple education on said topic or issue.

Much of what has been said in other posts in regard to this ignorance is simply an attempt to help explain why this ignorance exists – not to knock or bash Americans. We have a very big country, rather large oceans on either side, and one country to the north that basically speaks the same language (as well as sharing many other customs and religious similarities). Unlike the EU were people on all sides have different cultures and different languages, all of which gives people a better grasp of the differences present in the world.

[Boon Mee]

When did calling someone ignorant become a bash?  I am an American and I take no offense to comments such as these in regard to a general level of ignorance in the US in regard to various topics (probably also has something to do with a semblance of agreement on my part).  None of the posts implied that ALL Americans were ignorant. 

Mai pen rai.

Just my knee-jerk response to what I mistakenly assumed was another overt bash. With the number of folks about taking pot-shots at Yanks these days I'm sure y'all can understand where I was initially coming from.

Mai mii pen haa...

Edited July 3, 2005 by Boon Mee

[meemiathai]

If you ask mr. tornado, gays and lesbians are terrorists. But muslims are innocent and peace loving people who in every corner of the world being badly treated and bullied by non-muslims.

You know, each time when I see on tv blind-folded hostages in Iraq, I feel so sorry for those masked gunmen that they had to be forced to do such terrible things by the world. They must feel really bad when they start working on their knives but we have forced them to do so.

[JemJem]

I would certainly not classify Americans as terrorists - what a foolish thought! In establishing Democracy in Afganistan, Iraq and the rest of the middle east to follow, the US is pursuing the only rational, objective, pragmatic course there is. And OZ - your country of birth, is our strongest supporter.

So get with the program!

Enough said here - rest in the Pit!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

''Establishing democracy in Iraq" ??!!

LOL......LOL......LOL

Jem

[Tolley]

An interesting topic with lots of posters going off in tangents.

I will add my two cents worth.

The hardline approach never works and in fact tends to escalate problems over the long run.

The Thaksin approach to the south has had the effect of stirring up the hornets nest.

Who knows where it will all end but dialogue, trust and credibility need to be restored if a satisfactory long term solution is to be reached.

Arbitary killings, and politically sanctioned executions is not the way forward. Moderate muslims are being pushed into the hands of the radical elements because Thaksins policies have ostensibly left them isolated from the mainly dominated Buddhist majority.

The scary things is that many 'educated' Thais actually agree with the hardline approach.

Where will it all end?

I think it is difficult to say but it seems if current policies are not altered Thailand is destined for a long period of instability in the south.

[Tolley]

A lot of the current problems also lie with the fact that the military (who had fostered good relations with the local Muslim population) were replaced by the police in the south who managed to destroy a lot of the good work and relationships that the military had built up with their corrupt practices and lack of understanding of the issues in the south.

[Tornado]

If you ask mr. tornado, gays and lesbians are terrorists.  But muslims are innocent and peace loving people who in every corner of the world being badly treated and bullied by non-muslims.

You know, each time when I see on tv blind-folded hostages in Iraq, I feel so sorry for those masked gunmen that they had to be forced to do such terrible things by the world.  They must feel really bad when they start working on their knives but we have forced them to do so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

oh really?

interesting!

[haha]

An interesting topic with lots of posters going off in tangents.

I will add my two cents worth.

The hardline approach never works and in fact tends to escalate problems over the long run.

The Thaksin approach to the south has had the effect of stirring up the hornets nest.

Who knows where it will all end but dialogue, trust and credibility need to be restored if a satisfactory long term solution is to be reached.

Arbitary killings, and politically sanctioned executions is not the way forward. Moderate muslims are being pushed into the hands of the radical elements because Thaksins policies have ostensibly left them isolated from the mainly dominated Buddhist majority.

The scary things is that many 'educated' Thais actually agree with the hardline approach.

Where will it all end?

I think it is difficult to say but it seems if current policies are not altered  Thailand is destined for a long period of instability in the south.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so, in other words, it's ok for the insurgents to take the "hardline" approach, and not ok for the thai's to respond with the same? right?

remember, it all started with the insurgents or terrorists. however way you want to look at it.

thaksin wouldn't be down there with troops if the terrorists didn't kill all those innocent people. chopping off their heads like they did.

as for moderate muslims being pushed into the hands of the radical elements, I think what's happening is the moderate muslims are being intimidated to the point where they fear for their lives. bullied to the point where they will accept anything that the radicals elements say.

is a soft approach the best approach in this sort of scenario?

if a mad man is running around killing people for no reason, are you going to stand in front of him pleading for him to not continue with his killing?

you tell me.

[Tolley]

An interesting topic with lots of posters going off in tangents.

I will add my two cents worth.

The hardline approach never works and in fact tends to escalate problems over the long run.

The Thaksin approach to the south has had the effect of stirring up the hornets nest.

Who knows where it will all end but dialogue, trust and credibility need to be restored if a satisfactory long term solution is to be reached.

Arbitary killings, and politically sanctioned executions is not the way forward. Moderate muslims are being pushed into the hands of the radical elements because Thaksins policies have ostensibly left them isolated from the mainly dominated Buddhist majority.

The scary things is that many 'educated' Thais actually agree with the hardline approach.

Where will it all end?

I think it is difficult to say but it seems if current policies are not altered  Thailand is destined for a long period of instability in the south.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so, in other words, it's ok for the insurgents to take the "hardline" approach, and not ok for the thai's to respond with the same? right?

remember, it all started with the insurgents or terrorists. however way you want to look at it.

thaksin wouldn't be down there with troops if the terrorists didn't kill all those innocent people. chopping off their heads like they did.

as for moderate muslims being pushed into the hands of the radical elements, I think what's happening is the moderate muslims are being intimidated to the point where they fear for their lives. bullied to the point where they will accept anything that the radicals elements say.

is a soft approach the best approach in this sort of scenario?

if a mad man is running around killing people for no reason, are you going to stand in front of him pleading for him to not continue with his killing?

Maybe you would prefer the Roman approach.

Raze the villages and slaughter everyone, men, women, and children.

That would get rid of the problem.

The hardline approach never succeeds in the long run.

All it does is exacerbate the existing problems making a long term solution more difficult to achieve.

What would you do in the way of hard line action that would solve the problems of the south? I and probably the Thai govt would be extremely interested in your solution.

[Boon Mee]

Perhaps not an exact parallel but the so-called 'hardline' approach worked(s) in Bosnia.

[haha]

you got me stumped. but then, I don't think the soft approach would work either.

as I see it, these terrorists cannot be reasoned with. the fact that they are killing people means they are not willing to listen to any compromises.

so, what to do?

for a start, maybe do some backgrounds checks of users on the internet. I have this feeling that a lot of these terrorist types are on the internet trying to influence people to their way of thinking.

in the past whenever the hardline approach or as you call it, the roman approach, was used, the problems that existed usually were resolved instantaneously. wouldn't you agree?

check out this website. did you know those terrorists have been doing their terrorizing since the early part of the last century? and that this trend is increasing in intensity over the years?

http://www.almidfarah.fanspace.com/islamic_terr_even.htm

[chownah]

I guess when trying to decide if the hard or soft approach will work it might be good to decide what outcome you want. For instance....if you don't care whether the Muslim population in the south live in democratic society or respect the central authority then you can station 100,000 troops there, declare martial law and kill anyone you think might challenge your authority. I want to make it very very clear that this is a TOTALLY hypothetical scenerio I have created and I am NOT implying that this is what the gov't has done or is wanting to do in the future...again...this is TOTALLY hypothetical. On the other hand if the outcome you are looking for is for the southern Muslims to be part of the governing of their own region and the country as a whole (include them in the power sharing) then some different approach should be taken...perhaps giving them a bit more autonomy....again this is TOTALLY hypothetical and I'm not trying to say that the Thai gov't is thinking of doing this.

What I'm trying to say here is that you need to have a clear understanding of what outcome you are trying to achieve before you can decide on what method is likely to produce that outcome. Too often (in my opinion) people look for the immediate outcome (for example: stop the violence) and take steps to achieve that but the method they use to do this will jeoprodize a more long term outcome (for example:get Muslims to trust the gov't).

[haha]

hmmm..

I'm not an expert on power sharing. all I basically require in my life is enough money to navigate for food and a roof over my head.

what do you think they had in mind in the way of power sharing?

do you think they are willing to live side by side with other people of other beliefs?

do you think if the thai government built some new factories down there so that the people there could earn a living and have sufficient financial means to not worry about food, to enjoy life, they would be happy?

it would be nice if they would open up and talk about what's bothering them. instead of killing people.

the only way these problems can be resolved is if all parties concern understand that we ALL have the right to live here on this planet.

[Boon Mee]

what do you think they had in mind in the way of power sharing?

do you think they are willing to live side by side with other people of other beliefs?

I think their Koran is getting in the way...