If My Wife Dies...

[dagling]

If my wife dies after we get married and build our new house, who will then take the house and land? House and land have to stay in her name, we falang can not own land. I mean, what will happen if she die? What can I do legally  to help me in the future if something happens to her? Her family stays about 50 km. from where we planning to make our new home. 

[cougar52]

Hi, I am responding because of the article about the Road Show in Chiang Mai of the Minister of Interior and this is what was said about exactly this.

Foreigners? right to property was the final topic, with officials listing the requirements for owning and buying condos. Additionally, the spouse of a Thai person can inherit one rai of land for residential or commercial purposes or 10 rai of agricultural land if their Thai spouse dies. If the spouse held more than the requirement, then the foreign partner has one year to sell or to give away. Thai children can inherit from their parents, and foreign parents can buy land for their children if they are minors but must apply for a court ruling before purchasing.

So unless I am wrong, if your house and land is less than 1 rai it can be legally willed to you. If the land that the land is more than 1 rai, I assume that you can still have it willed to you, however, you can only keep 1 rai and sell or give away the rest. I would think if it was say 10 rai, give 9 rai to the family and keep 1rai for yourself.

[gotlost]

Hi, I am responding because of the article about the Road Show in Chiang Mai of the Minister of Interior and this is what was said about exactly this.

Foreigners? right to property was the final topic, with officials listing the requirements for owning and buying condos. Additionally, the spouse of a Thai person can inherit one rai of land for residential or commercial purposes or 10 rai of agricultural land if their Thai spouse dies. If the spouse held more than the requirement, then the foreign partner has one year to sell or to give away. Thai children can inherit from their parents, and foreign parents can buy land for their children if they are minors but must apply for a court ruling before purchasing.

So unless I am wrong, if your house and land is less than 1 rai it can be legally willed to you. If the land that the land is more than 1 rai, I assume that you can still have it willed to you, however, you can only keep 1 rai and sell or give away the rest. I would think if it was say 10 rai, give 9 rai to the family and keep 1rai for yourself.

This was discussed at length on the Chiang Mai Form and Real Estate Form. The consensus is that no land office in Thailand will enforce what the Minister of Interior suggested and that a winnable court case is next to impossible. So you would be given 1 year to sell the land and house. Foreigners can not own land.

[aussiedoug]

Once upon a time I attended a two day seminar run by one of the local universities dealing with foreign investment and moving to Thailand to live. ne of the attendees had spent a lot of money acquiring land in his wifes name before he began to live in Thailand and claimed to have some letter from some government minister that said he in fact "could be bequeathed the property" on her death, and this the farang took to mean he could inherit and hold the property. The response from the many thai lawyers in the room was BULLSHIT, you may be able to inherit, but if you are a non thai you have to dispose of it to a thai. That's a buyers market, and you can guess the family will be first to line up for first bid.

[Mario2008]

The mentioned topic can be found here:

[MrSaliva]

<br>

<br>Hi, I am responding because of the article about the Road Show in Chiang Mai of the Minister of Interior and this is what was said about exactly this.<br><br>  Foreigners? right to property was the final topic, with officials listing the requirements for owning and buying condos. Additionally, the spouse of a Thai person can inherit one rai of land for residential or commercial purposes or 10 rai of agricultural land if their Thai spouse dies. If the spouse held more than the requirement, then the foreign partner has one year to sell or to give away. Thai children can inherit from their parents, and foreign parents can buy land for their children if they are minors but must apply for a court ruling before purchasing.<br><br>So unless I am wrong, if your house and land is less than 1 rai it can be legally willed to you. If the land that the land is more than 1 rai, I assume that you can still have it willed to you, however, you can only keep 1 rai and sell or give away the rest. I would think if it was say 10 rai, give 9 rai to the family and keep 1rai for yourself.<br>

<br><br><br>This was discussed at length on the Chiang Mai Form and Real Estate Form. The consensus is that no land office in Thailand will enforce what the Minister of Interior suggested and that a winnable court case is next to impossible. So you would be given 1 year to sell the land and house. Foreigners can not own land.<br>

<br><br><br><br>Or you could get an usufruct and see if that works.  They are very simple to get but I don't know anyone personally who has ever tried to exercise it. (gives you the legal right to remain resident in the normal domicile after the Thai spouse dies so I suppose it's not much good for any other properties other than primary residence. Has anyone ever heard of a case where this has happened??<br> <br>

[Artamus]

It would depend on a number of things, like:

1) is there a will

2) are there any children that you have had together

3) do you have a lease

My understanding is that if there is no will and no children the house/land will go to the family of the Thai - so then it would depend on how well they like you if you would be homeless or not.

If you have a 30 year lease then although the land would still go to the family, who could sell it, you would still legally have a lease and be able to live there, which makes selling it unattractive to a buyer. Might cause some friction with the family though if they wanted to sell or use the land for something else.

Even if there is a will, as others have said, you would be pretty unlikely to actually get to keep the land.

If you have a child with your partner you can put the land in the childs name which would help a lot.

Never invest money in Thialand you cannot afford to lose - farang have so little recourse to the law here.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Artamus

[rics21]

It would depend on a number of things, like:

1) is there a will

2) are there any children that you have had together

3) do you have a lease

My understanding is that if there is no will and no children the house/land will go to the family of the Thai - so then it would depend on how well they like you if you would be homeless or not.

If you have a 30 year lease then although the land would still go to the family, who could sell it, you would still legally have a lease and be able to live there, which makes selling it unattractive to a buyer. Might cause some friction with the family though if they wanted to sell or use the land for something else.

Even if there is a will, as others have said, you would be pretty unlikely to actually get to keep the land.

If you have a child with your partner you can put the land in the childs name which would help a lot.

Never invest money in Thialand you cannot afford to lose - farang have so little recourse to the law here.

so is it better to buy a condo?

[huawei]

Hi

My wife died quite suddenly a few years back without a will. The house and land

(Less than 1 Rai were in her name).

By Thai law I had to go through probate for the estate.

The house was equally divided by Thai law amongst her parents, our child and me.

The solution was to gift all shares to our daughter, who at the time was 11 years of age.

The house and land are registered under her name at the land department; if we wish to sell we need to go to court to ensure any such proceeds are used for her purpose only until she is 20 years of age,

I know that a farang is suppose to be able to inherit. I was advised that I would not be allowed to register my name on the chanote so basically forget that idea it wasn’t going to happen.

Look, Thais married to farangs weren’t allowed to own any property until 1998 (and still there was political resistance at that time), up and until that time the only feasible method was not to register the marriage. We waited till the law was changed. So they certainly will not accommodate a farangs name being on a chanote. Also at such a vulnerable time are you really in the right frame of mind or even have the energy to pursue this when on death even your visa status changes. I have lived in Thailand the majority of the time since 1978 and even after all that time the sense of isolation was very real.

I discussed purchasing of property back in 1987 through a company but was told it was illegal by a Thai lawyer recommended thru the British embassy, and again in 1994 when I was working with a multi national company here with a work permit etc..and this time with a large international law firm, again i was informed it was illegal and that a lease option was discussed based on her parents owning the land. All too complex and convoluted.

So neither of these options was satisfactory. Even when she did have the right to buy I didn’t think a lease was much of a guarantee or safety guard.

As a farang you do have legal rights but it is the pursuant of those rights which is difficult, both in a practical sense and simply being a foreigner in foreign country, be it in the inheritance of a property or having tenure under a lease.

Make sure you have a will and make sure you have a good lawyer. Don’t go looking for a lawyer at that time, get recommendations from work colleagues or friends when you don’t really need one and make sure you have a rainy day fund, especially in times such as death or divorce you will need it.

Don’t invest what you can’t afford to lose, I couldn’t agree LESS. Buying a house for the family is not an investment especially if you have children. Use common sense as if you were back in your home country and don’t invest here until you have lived here a very long time.

Thailand has changed enormously over the years as has their attitude towards foreigners, but one thing that has not changed is their attitude to land ownership by foreigners, play as you may but when push comes to shove you almost have no protection, even if you inherit it!

[donx]

Hi

My wife died quite suddenly a few years back without a will. The house and land

(Less than 1 Rai were in her name).

By Thai law I had to go through probate for the estate.

The house was equally divided by Thai law amongst her parents, our child and me.

The solution was to gift all shares to our daughter, who at the time was 11 years of age.

The house and land are registered under her name at the land department; if we wish to sell we need to go to court to ensure any such proceeds are used for her purpose only until she is 20 years of age,

I know that a farang is suppose to be able to inherit. I was advised that I would not be allowed to register my name on the chanote so basically forget that idea it wasn’t going to happen.

Look, Thais married to farangs weren’t allowed to own any property until 1998 (and still there was political resistance at that time), up and until that time the only feasible method was not to register the marriage. We waited till the law was changed. So they certainly will not accommodate a farangs name being on a chanote. Also at such a vulnerable time are you really in the right frame of mind or even have the energy to pursue this when on death even your visa status changes. I have lived in Thailand the majority of the time since 1978 and even after all that time the sense of isolation was very real.

I discussed purchasing of property back in 1987 through a company but was told it was illegal by a Thai lawyer recommended thru the British embassy, and again in 1994 when I was working with a multi national company here with a work permit etc..and this time with a large international law firm, again i was informed it was illegal and that a lease option was discussed based on her parents owning the land. All too complex and convoluted.

So neither of these options was satisfactory. Even when she did have the right to buy I didn’t think a lease was much of a guarantee or safety guard.

As a farang you do have legal rights but it is the pursuant of those rights which is difficult, both in a practical sense and simply being a foreigner in foreign country, be it in the inheritance of a property or having tenure under a lease.

Make sure you have a will and make sure you have a good lawyer. Don’t go looking for a lawyer at that time, get recommendations from work colleagues or friends when you don’t really need one and make sure you have a rainy day fund, especially in times such as death or divorce you will need it.

Don’t invest what you can’t afford to lose, I couldn’t agree LESS. Buying a house for the family is not an investment especially if you have children. Use common sense as if you were back in your home country and don’t invest here until you have lived here a very long time.

Thailand has changed enormously over the years as has their attitude towards foreigners, but one thing that has not changed is their attitude to land ownership by foreigners, play as you may but when push comes to shove you almost have no protection, even if you inherit it!

Thank you for this informative and well written post. It is always good to read from those with actual experience.

[yabaaaa]

For the very reasons mentioned I got a usufruct with my wife on our land, NOT incase of divorce but in case of death. We will start to build our house soon and this ill be added. I REPEAT this is NOT for divorce just insurance against her death...............mind that top step dear Ive just mopped the flooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooor!!!!

[stgrhe]

Yes, I too agree that the first hand information provide by Huawei is valuable.

My understanding is that land actually can be inherited but during the year is which it must be sold the foreigner's name will in fact never be written on the title document.

Also, like yabaaa says, I believe most of us having a usufruct registered have them because they enable us to remain living on the land should our wife pass away before us.

[huawei]

On reflection of my events I think all farangs should protect themselves.

If you had asked me before my wife’s death I would have been much more cavalier about it. May pen rai! and I was wrong.

It is about protecting yourself from the unforeseen, not from an unscrupulous wife or her family.

If the wife or partner thinks otherwise, explain to them what might happen to you, we all need educating on this.

I found myself, having lost my wife; visa status changing with a minority interest in my own home, how insane was that!

Clearly a will is required but a usufruct to me seems the best option, although it was never brought to my attention at anytime, which in some ways shows how important a board like this can be. So that you can ask the right questions and that there are options.

Such protections provide you with the one thing that one really needs at such a time and that is the time to make your own decisions and you do need time, and a lot of it.

For me, we still have the house in the moobaan( up country), but now live in a condo in my name in Bangkok, the kid had to change schools, she went to a Thai school but given the change in circumstances for me, we changed to an international boarding school where the teaching and curriculum were one I fully understood and could get the support needed, as I said have a rainy day fund! The school was very good.

One other lesson I learnt from this is that the Thai (private) school system is quite poor or adequate at best.. I hadn’t really focused on it much, left it to the wife, I was away working etc, the kid was happy enough, the usual passive role.

What makes me shudder to this very day is that things could have been so much worse. I was lucky in the fact that the wife’s family transferred over everything, secondly I had a great lawyer and thirdly money was not an issue (for awhile at least).

If you live upcountry, are probably retired and something like this happens and you do not have things in place it would be a nightmare. We have made Thailand our homes, we live in a foreign country all the more reason to make sure all eventualities are covered. As I said previously, I was abit more than casual about a lot of things in my life in Thailand, as a youngster that ok, as you get older, have a family and acquire assets it is not..

I came to Thailand by accident all those years ago, when I was doing the London, Sydney overland (trip).My attitude to things has fossilized at that time. Thailand is to be enjoyed no need to worry about such things etc, the times I have heard that from middle aged men I come across is unbelievable.(although understandable),there are realities out there being in Thailand doesn’t change that and don’t let anyone including yourself tell you otherwise.

Cheers.

[barryofthailand]

I have a friend who's wife passed away. He too had to go to probate court, his father in law was asked by the judge if it was OK with the family that he kept the house. the father said sure, he paid for it. He was given a document giving him control of the house and land, but the land title deed had to be kept in his deceased wife's name.

Barry

[jfchandler]

Barry... a couple things...

1. Did your friend's wife die with a will or without?

2. Wonder what would have happened in the FIL had said no.. not OK.

3. A dead person can hold legal title to land in Thailand, legally???

[steve2550]

My wife died quite suddenly a few years back without a will. The house and land

(Less than 1 Rai were in her name).

By Thai law I had to go through probate for the estate.

The house was equally divided by Thai law amongst her parents, our child and me.

The solution was to gift all shares to our daughter, who at the time was 11 years of age.

The house and land are registered under her name at the land department; if we wish to sell we need to go to court to ensure any such proceeds are used for her purpose only until she is 20 years of age,

Thank you for sharing the information (Sorry for your loss).

So you are the "Inheritance Manager"?

>"The house was equally divided by Thai law amongst her parents, our child and me."

I conclude that each got a quarter. If only one parent is still alive, would it be one third for each or would the remaining parent get half?

(I tried searching but "Inheritance manager" doesn't seem being the right word.)

Thanks.

[huawei]

My wife died quite suddenly a few years back without a will. The house and land

(Less than 1 Rai were in her name).

By Thai law I had to go through probate for the estate.

The house was equally divided by Thai law amongst her parents, our child and me.

The solution was to gift all shares to our daughter, who at the time was 11 years of age.

The house and land are registered under her name at the land department; if we wish to sell we need to go to court to ensure any such proceeds are used for her purpose only until she is 20 years of age,

Thank you for sharing the information (Sorry for your loss).

So you are the "Inheritance Manager"?

>"The house was equally divided by Thai law amongst her parents, our child and me."

I conclude that each got a quarter. If only one parent is still alive, would it be one third for each or would the remaining parent get half?

(I tried searching but "Inheritance manager" doesn't seem being the right word.)

Thanks.

As part of probate you go to court to be confirmed as the administrator of the estate which is then confirmed by the court and you are provided with a document declaring so.

In my case only one of the wifes parents was still alive so it was divided one third each.

[fletchsmile]

Hi

My wife died quite suddenly a few years back without a will. The house and land

(Less than 1 Rai were in her name).

By Thai law I had to go through probate for the estate.

The house was equally divided by Thai law amongst her parents, our child and me.

The solution was to gift all shares to our daughter, who at the time was 11 years of age.

The house and land are registered under her name at the land department; if we wish to sell we need to go to court to ensure any such proceeds are used for her purpose only until she is 20 years of age,

I know that a farang is suppose to be able to inherit. I was advised that I would not be allowed to register my name on the chanote so basically forget that idea it wasn’t going to happen.

Look, Thais married to farangs weren’t allowed to own any property until 1998 (and still there was political resistance at that time), up and until that time the only feasible method was not to register the marriage. We waited till the law was changed. So they certainly will not accommodate a farangs name being on a chanote. Also at such a vulnerable time are you really in the right frame of mind or even have the energy to pursue this when on death even your visa status changes. I have lived in Thailand the majority of the time since 1978 and even after all that time the sense of isolation was very real.

I discussed purchasing of property back in 1987 through a company but was told it was illegal by a Thai lawyer recommended thru the British embassy, and again in 1994 when I was working with a multi national company here with a work permit etc..and this time with a large international law firm, again i was informed it was illegal and that a lease option was discussed based on her parents owning the land. All too complex and convoluted.

So neither of these options was satisfactory. Even when she did have the right to buy I didn’t think a lease was much of a guarantee or safety guard.

As a farang you do have legal rights but it is the pursuant of those rights which is difficult, both in a practical sense and simply being a foreigner in foreign country, be it in the inheritance of a property or having tenure under a lease.

Make sure you have a will and make sure you have a good lawyer. Don’t go looking for a lawyer at that time, get recommendations from work colleagues or friends when you don’t really need one and make sure you have a rainy day fund, especially in times such as death or divorce you will need it.

Don’t invest what you can’t afford to lose, I couldn’t agree LESS. Buying a house for the family is not an investment especially if you have children. Use common sense as if you were back in your home country and don’t invest here until you have lived here a very long time.

Thailand has changed enormously over the years as has their attitude towards foreigners, but one thing that has not changed is their attitude to land ownership by foreigners, play as you may but when push comes to shove you almost have no protection, even if you inherit it!

Condolences on the loss of your wife. I would like to say Thank You, for sharing your experience in a way that could be positive for others. One of the best and most sensible and practical posts I've ever seen on Thai Visa.

[steve2550]

As part of probate you go to court to be confirmed as the administrator of the estate which is then confirmed by the court and you are provided with a document declaring so.

In my case only one of the wifes parents was still alive so it was divided one third each.

Is there a time limit until you have to start the procedure for the probate?

Thanks for all the information.

[steve2550]

As part of probate you go to court to be confirmed as the administrator of the estate which is then confirmed by the court and you are provided with a document declaring so.

In my case only one of the wifes parents was still alive so it was divided one third each.

I am curious about the cost. I was told that you could actually do everything yourself at the court if you can read Thai. Has anyone tried this on his own or does everybody offload this to a lawyer?

Thanks for your info.

[huawei]

As part of probate you go to court to be confirmed as the administrator of the estate which is then confirmed by the court and you are provided with a document declaring so.

In my case only one of the wifes parents was still alive so it was divided one third each.

I am curious about the cost. I was told that you could actually do everything yourself at the court if you can read Thai. Has anyone tried this on his own or does everybody offload this to a lawyer?

Thanks for your info.

Probate cost me about 30k. I can speak Thai but not read. Also in the Thai courts they used the Royal Thai language ( i had to practice with my lawyer the answers to some expected questions). The process was not that complex, once you are confirmed as the administrator and confirm a few other facts thats it. Frankly not worth the hassle to do yourself unless deeply interested. I am also not sure that a lay person ( unqualified) can act as representative in court.

On the question of when does the probate have to be executed, i will get back to you when i get reply from a friend. I think it is an extremely valid question because it could help you to organize yourself better and furthermore delay the need to transfer the assets to a farang which then kicks in this time limitation rule.

[steve2550]

Probate cost me about 30k. I can speak Thai but not read. Also in the Thai courts they used the Royal Thai language ( i had to practice with my lawyer the answers to some expected questions). The process was not that complex, once you are confirmed as the administrator and confirm a few other facts thats it. Frankly not worth the hassle to do yourself unless deeply interested. I am also not sure that a lay person ( unqualified) can act as representative in court.

On the question of when does the probate have to be executed, i will get back to you when i get reply from a friend. I think it is an extremely valid question because it could help you to organize yourself better and furthermore delay the need to transfer the assets to a farang which then kicks in this time limitation rule.

Thank you very much, this is all very helpful.

My brother-in-law got a first quotation for 50k and somewhere else 20k, so it definitely pays to ask around (and not mentioning at first that a farang is involved).

Apparently the prices include the cost for a newspaper announcement.

Thanks again for your help.

[steve2550]

Is there a time limit until you have to start the procedure for the probate?

Let me answer my own question: At least at the court there was no problem in my case: my wife died about 2 years before we did the court stuff and I asked my brother-in-law to be the "inheritance manager". He is a recently retired army officer. My mother-in-law agreed to it. I was present at the court; I am fluent in Thai but I kept my mouth shut and so in the court room they only questioned my mother-in-law and my brother-in-law and the matter was finished rather quickly.

My brother-in-law already closed the first bank account and transferred the money into my account.

So bank accounts are not a problem. (Maybe because there isn't that much in them anyway.)

What is still unclear to me is the point about the land ownership. My wife got from her mother about 20 Rai somewhere in the province after our on was born. (The remaining 20 Rai are jointly owned by my MIL & BIL.) Apparently the small plot in Bangkok we currently live on was also separated like this: 50% to my wife, the other 50% my MIL & BIL, about half a Rai altogether in Bkk.

Reading other threads it seems that I could own up to 1 Rai and would have sell the excess within a year. Did the clock now start ticking or are we too late anyway for a clean solution?

(BTW: I have no interest owning any land here.)