2 Electrical Questions?

[Beardog]

Hi Guys I think I am on the finals.

I went downstairs to string through the wires for the well pumps & spotted a suspect set of wires with the infamous Black Tape Of Death. So I decided it behooves me to take a look in the attic & sure enough Black tape on all connections. This job unlike the first dump we

had built is very neatly wrapped. Unfortunately it's got to go.Crossy ,Elk ,David ,Stgrhe, Trojers or whoever knows electrical. What is the best way to connect the wires in Los? I will pick up the gear for the sparky so it gets done right & will go up & make sure he puts in the connectors,last house I didn't check till they left & found 20 lengths of conduit & all the connectors & crimp pliers neatly set in the corner of the attic-but never used.

The only thing that they could have botched when I went back to the U.S. for 3 weeks,Go figure.

Will 2.5 gauge wire work with a 1 hp or 1.5hp Franklin pump for a bore hole pump? the borehole will be 15-20 meters from the consumer panel.

Once again thanks . You guys rock!

[stgrhe]

Wire nuts

http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/14-46-wire-nuts.aspx

which you can buy at HomePro

Edited July 26, 2010 by stgrhe

[David006]

probably not "legal" Thai wise but I would be inclined to get me a few dozen multi-size good American "wire nuts" ( plastic cones with thread inside) to replace the "twist and tapes"...crimps are usually for auto or marine...but TIT

OFF TOPIC BUT....Jesus!!! think we have a bloody hurricane here now...poor wife is out at market on motorbike..just waiting for the phone call...deeeeha..help!! LOL

hahaa ... STGRHE we is on the same page..lol

Edited July 26, 2010 by David006

[elkangorito]

I personally don't like wirenuts. I much prefer the connector that has a tunnel & a screw. Either are better than 'twist & tape'.

The next problem is using these devices correctly. If used incorrectly, problems can arise (heating & fire). I've seen many melted connections because 'electricians' (Australia) incorrectly used these devices.

I have purchased tunnel/screw connectors in Thailand previously.

[stgrhe]

I personally don't like wirenuts. I much prefer the connector that has a tunnel & a screw. Either are better than 'twist & tape'.

The next problem is using these devices correctly. If used incorrectly, problems can arise (heating & fire). I've seen many melted connections because 'electricians' (Australia) incorrectly used these devices.

I have purchased tunnel/screw connectors in Thailand previously.

Actually, if size permits in the junction boxes I prefer the rail mounted terminal blocks.

http://www.google.co.th/imglanding?q=Terminal%20blocks&imgurl=http://www.shining.com.tw/images/Shining%2520TF%2520terminal%2520blocks%25202%2520300x.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.shining.com.tw/1EN/ENterminal_blocks-euro_TF.htm&h=282&w=300&sz=23&tbnid=AmrmlESoUfPwpM:&tbnh=109&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3DTerminal%2Bblocks&usg=__e1bka3ugfZn5JIfcdSkxYVhpR2M=&sa=X&ei=5nJNTI-UIoumrQepm4i6Dg&ved=0CDkQ9QEwBA&start=0#tbnid=AmrmlESoUfPwpM&start=1

[bankruatsteve]

I guess I'm old style so I like to use the wire nuts. But I also wrap them in the black pvc tape (to assure they hold connection). So, MAYBE if you see things wrapped in black tape, it's not just twisted wire. (Well, maybe)

Oh - yeah. 2.5mm2 is good for the pump.

Edited July 26, 2010 by bankruatsteve

[gotlost]

Wire nuts if used and installed correctly are excellent. The problem is most wire nuts are not installed correctly. I have worked many locations of the Petrochemical Industry the have outlawed the use of wire nuts for this reasons

Edited July 26, 2010 by gotlost

[Beardog]

So besides wire nuts the most common connectors I find our the block type? Which would be the most reliable? I think this type might be the best with electrical tap wrapping it. I have used wire nuts, but usually put the connections in a junction box which there are way to many connections to make this feasible. The connector type on the bottom left left side is the one that I find in almost every mom & Pops shops along with Home Pro & the other chains.Is this a good choice are is there a better option.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Beardog

[powderpuff]

Go out & buy the correct length of wire for the job.

How many Pumps?

750 watt = i HP.

[moe666]

Old style twist and solder cover with tape.

[elkangorito]

Old style twist and solder cover with tape.

With regard to the above quote, DO NOT solder the wires. There are very good reasons for not soldering the wires.

[electau]

Use approved connectors and enclose in an approved junction box. If exposed to the weather use an IP56 rated enclosure.

[Crossy]

Use approved connectors and enclose in an approved junction box. If exposed to the weather use an IP56 rated enclosure.

Whilst I fully agree with the above Electau has forgotten we're in Thailand, the installation already has 'approved' connections

Like Elkangorito I'm also not a lover of wire nuts (they've been outlawed in the UK for 30+ years) but they are infinitely better than twist-n-tape and would be a relatively easy retro-fit. If you read the instructions (perish the thought) you're not supposed to twist the wires first, just place them together and wind the nut on for a gas-tight connection. If it's not in a box (which it should really be) then a turn or two of tape will give that extra bit of security.

Being a Brit I like the UK style JBs with fixed screw terminals inside, not available here (could be in Malaysia though as they use UK style wiring). Tunnel-and-screw connectors (or choc-bloc) are good provided you get the correct size for your wires, too big is as bad as too small.

Insulated crimps of the correct size fitted using a proper ratchet tool would also be an excellent solution.

So many choices to do it right, sad that the locals use the only method we all agree on as being very wrong

[Beardog]

Go out & buy the correct length of wire for the job.

How many Pumps?

750 watt = i HP.

Any lines I run are over the size needed so I don't need to add on anything The pumps & the auxiliary lines to the Borehole to be have 3-5 meters extra(just in case. The lines I was talking about are in the attic. From the down lights to the main box.

[Beardog]

Use approved connectors and enclose in an approved junction box. If exposed to the weather use an IP56 rated enclosure.

Whilst I fully agree with the above Electau has forgotten we're in Thailand, the installation already has 'approved' connections

Like Elkangorito I'm also not a lover of wire nuts (they've been outlawed in the UK for 30+ years) but they are infinitely better than twist-n-tape and would be a relatively easy retro-fit. If you read the instructions (perish the thought) you're not supposed to twist the wires first, just place them together and wind the nut on for a gas-tight connection. If it's not in a box (which it should really be) then a turn or two of tape will give that extra bit of security.

Being a Brit I like the UK style JBs with fixed screw terminals inside, not available here (could be in Malaysia though as they use UK style wiring). Tunnel-and-screw connectors (or choc-bloc) are good provided you get the correct size for your wires, too big is as bad as too small.

Insulated crimps of the correct size fitted using a proper ratchet tool would also be an excellent solution.

So many choices to do it right, sad that the locals use the only method we all agree on as being very wrong

Crossy after looking into the attic I can see they have done it 50% right & used the block connector that I attached in one of the photos. Most of the lines are the down lights & one side has the block connector & taped. The other side has 2 leads wrapped together twisted & taped instead of a connector.

What type of connector would you suggest for the 2 wires leading to one?

This is one time I really do miss the ease of western supplies!!!!!!

I brought back what I thought was ample supplies from my last home visit to the U.S. but one never can remember or foresee everything.That & I would need a container to really maximize the product crunch. That to & the U.S. goods do not always fit. the plugs are a little different & the voltages are not the same either.

I am relieved they got mot of it right but need suggestion on the way to connect 2 into one properly. Thanks again guys!!!!!!!

[bankruatsteve]

Or, perhaps it's one wire leading (connecting) to two? Can you source the wires? Is that just ONE wire or the 2 core? (In any case, it sounds like you have 3 wires (probably 2 core meaing 3x2) that need to be connected. If you want to use the wire nuts, use the yellow if the wires are 1.5 or the red if 2.5 for each connection. If you want the tunnel/screw, use the size same rating as the wire.

[Beardog]

I picked up some larger tunnel type connectors & attacked up to 4 wires together & yanked on them till my arms hurt. I will use these for connecting the wires together & joining the 2.5 4 & 6 gauge. The larger ones are the ticket. I will tape them as well for extra safety.

I think I ill go up in the attic & help the sparkys to make surer they don't do some that I can see & neglect the rest.

Thanks again!

[Artisi]

Old style twist and solder cover with tape.

With regard to the above quote, DO NOT solder the wires. There are very good reasons for not soldering the wires.

elkangorito

It would be appreciated if you could expand on the above statement, re, DO NOT solder the wires and what the good reasons are - thanks.

[David006]

Old style twist and solder cover with tape.

With regard to the above quote, DO NOT solder the wires. There are very good reasons for not soldering the wires.

out of curiosity ...what are they mate? I can understand the inconvenience/trouble shooting factor....especially since most domestic wire is not tinned?

I used those bloody awful connr strips in conduit boxes..threads therein are so bloody unreliable.

I am not sure if there actually anything wrong with a twist and tape method provided it is done well ..there is greater contact between wires and since household current is subject to skin effect the more wire to wire contact the better...I used it with light fittings but with shrink wrap...twist with wires at 45 degrees for about 1.5cm.

Look at some of the overhead taps in the street ..all have tape, though it may be self amalgamating but doubt it..granted they use substantial bronze clamps ,I hope!

"Twisting" was and maybe still is the method used to connect telecommunications solid 23/24 gauge conductors in high pair count cables in outside plant..at one time they used paper sleeves to insulate. Granted the most voltage was approx 110v 17hertz (ringing) otherwise -48vdc at 4-6mA but....

[bankruatsteve]

I'm sure Elk can elaborate, but one reason is that solder is used to bond not to conduct and has much lower melting point than the metals it bonds. In low voltage components, rosin core (versus acid) solder is commonly used b/c, if properly done, it forms a good bond to the connected metals. But, in high voltage situtations, solder will degrade or even melt over time b/c of it's resistance and the bond will break causing sparks and most likely a fire. Also, soldering is useless unless done properly and proper soldering is a skill most DIY's do not have.

[Hssl]

WAGO spring/clamp connectors - German brand - very nice. Pornchai Electrical next to the bus station on Pattaya Nua stocks them

[Artisi]

WAGO spring/clamp connectors - German brand - very nice. Pornchai Electrical next to the bus station on Pattaya Nua stocks them

Indication of a price would be helpful

[elkangorito]

DO NOT solder the wires. There are very good reasons for not soldering the wires.

out of curiosity ...what are they mate? I can understand the inconvenience/trouble shooting factor....especially since most domestic wire is not tinned?

I used those bloody awful connr strips in conduit boxes..threads therein are so bloody unreliable.

I am not sure if there actually anything wrong with a twist and tape method provided it is done well ..there is greater contact between wires and since household current is subject to skin effect the more wire to wire contact the better...I used it with light fittings but with shrink wrap...twist with wires at 45 degrees for about 1.5cm.

Look at some of the overhead taps in the street ..all have tape, though it may be self amalgamating but doubt it..granted they use substantial bronze clamps ,I hope!

"Twisting" was and maybe still is the method used to connect telecommunications solid 23/24 gauge conductors in high pair count cables in outside plant..at one time they used paper sleeves to insulate. Granted the most voltage was approx 110v 17hertz (ringing) otherwise -48vdc at 4-6mA but....

The main reason for not soldering wires is that Fault Current can melt or debilitate the solder, thereby creating a resistive connection.

The other reasons are as Steve pointed out (below)...it's not easy to do a high quality & reliable solder joint unless you know what you are doing.

A reliable & good connection between current carrying conductors is all about;

a] surface area &,

b] appropriate & continuous pressure.

The Twist n Tape method is not reliable. PVC tape can quickly become soft if heated & lose it's elasticity. Roof spaces can become very hot (>60 degrees C).

Most high voltage connections use a special putty & amalgam tape.

BTW, the 'skin effect' is virtually nonexistent at 50Hz.

I'm sure Elk can elaborate, but one reason is that solder is used to bond not to conduct and has much lower melting point than the metals it bonds. In low voltage components, rosin core (versus acid) solder is commonly used b/c, if properly done, it forms a good bond to the connected metals. But, in high voltage situtations, solder will degrade or even melt over time b/c of it's resistance and the bond will break causing sparks and most likely a fire. Also, soldering is useless unless done properly and proper soldering is a skill most DIY's do not have.

WAGO spring/clamp connectors - German brand - very nice. Pornchai Electrical next to the bus station on Pattaya Nua stocks them

These look great...100 times better than tunnel/screw connectors & 1000 time better than wirenuts. Too bad they have a low current carrying capacity (24A).

[Hssl]

Wago about 8THB - 12THB per terminal - lots of different styles/amp ratings

[bankruatsteve]

Just looked up the WAGO. Looks good - I'd probably be a convert if I could find them in Isan.

[David006]

I'm sure Elk can elaborate, but one reason is that solder is used to bond not to conduct and has much lower melting point than the metals it bonds. In low voltage components, rosin core (versus acid) solder is commonly used b/c, if properly done, it forms a good bond to the connected metals. But, in high voltage situtations, solder will degrade or even melt over time b/c of it's resistance and the bond will break causing sparks and most likely a fire. Also, soldering is useless unless done properly and proper soldering is a skill most DIY's do not have.

hmmm seems reasonable...

BTW acid flux is never used in electrical/electronics primarily because it advances degradation of the joint..ie dry/HR joint.

I wonder though that ac interfaces to electronics (incoming power leads) are usually soldered.

Even my rice cooker has a "soldered in" in line fuse....good old Philips...

Agree that inexpert soldering is probably the major factor. (apply solder to the joint NOT the iron!! )

All soldered joints do tend to degrade over time and become HR or separate...regardless of voltage.....subject to the type/method of solder... silver lead content etc and environment.

BTW skin effect is always present but at lower frequencies the skin is that much deeper and as you say probably not a major issue.

enough of this... brain is hurting now...back to my orchids.

have good one guys...

[bankruatsteve]

Yeah I had a power supply in my desk top PC virtually blow up a while back. I traced it back to the soldered ac connection. I don't know why they do that. Should be mechanical connection. BTW: low voltage with solder should really not be a problem. High voltage (or let's say higher current density) will degrade the solder much faster.

[elkangorito]

Agree that inexpert soldering is probably the major factor. (apply solder to the joint NOT the iron!! )

Actually, the major factor is Fault Current. A poor solder joint simply exacerbates the situation.