Arrested For Shaking Hands

[Puccini]

If I could remember, the fine for working without a work permit is B 5000.

So I am assuming he shook ten different customers hands.

If with "he" you are referring to the foreigner mentioned by galowgala in the first post of this thread, I see nothing being said there about that man having paid a fine. galowgala's story was that a "bar owner got arrested in Pattaya by immigration and had to pay 50,000 Baht". Like with newspapers, I do not believe everything I read here. Arrested? Was there an arrest warrant? Is there a police report of his arrest? Did the bar owner get receipt from the police for the 50,000 Baht, saying that it is the receipt for a fine and stating what law and what section of that law he violated? If so, I would love to see copies of these two documents, i.e. the police record of the arrest and the fine receipt. However, to me it looks much more like a shakedown, extortion, or whatever you want to call it. Pay 50,000 Baht, under the table, or I book you and it will cost you more in lawyer's fees to have a court confirm your innocence. What else is new?

[Puccini]

...there is a concerted effort by the Democrat government to get rid of as many of us as possible...

Is there? That sounds scary. What do the chambers of commerce say about it?

[PoorSucker]

...there is a concerted effort by the Democrat government to get rid of as many of us as possible...

Thaksin took away the 400.000 bank option for extension based on marriage.

Democrats reinstated that.

[Lost in LOS]

I know which bar it has to be, he shakes everybody's hands. I always wondered how he got away with it since, yes, the will consider that working. Now I know.

[Puccini]

...there is a concerted effort by the Democrat government to get rid of as many of us as possible...

Thaksin took away the 400.000 bank option for extension based on marriage.

Democrats reinstated that.

In the context of this thread I take millwall_fan's statement to mean that the current Thai government has given instructions to the police to extort money from foreigners living in Thailand as part of a drive to encourage foreigners to leave Thailand. Is anybody else aware of such orders having been given by the government? If so, by whom in the government?

[Puccini]

Read this:

www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/387389-thai-policemen-arrested-for-alleged-bribery/page__view__findpost__p__3783443

Inquiry officials...said they have accused the two police sergeant majors of extortion by means of weapons and detainment.

This shows that policemen do get arrested and presumably prosecuted if they extort money and a complaint is filed by the victim.

[bubba]

Scarey to have to do such weaving and dodging, covering of tracks, etc., to avoid such headaches. About all I can say is, TIT.

TIT indeed.

It is always worth looking into if you would qualify for a work permit. I chose not to because of increased tax burden (foreigners pay higher tax than Thais), too much paperwork and large capital requirements (2m Baht minimum cash in the business to sponsor a work permit, if memory serves me right).

Rubbish. All foreigners use the same reporting form and pay precisely the same tax rate at Thai nationals. If you chose to work without a work permit, you are violating the law and will pay dearly once you are caught.

Edited August 1, 2010 by bubba

[samjaidee]

If it is your wifes business, as long as she employ s a minimum of 4 Thais she can emply you as as well. If you are married you can declare her income for joint taxation purposes.

I must admit I've never heard of Farang being arrested as long as they didn't go behind the bar or do abvious work activities like taking orders. But there is a concerted effort by the Democrat government to get rid of as many of us as possible- an effort that makes Thaksin's puny attempts look like chicken feed!

Poorsucker: Ok technically you pay the same as a Thai, but it will be assumed that you are earning 50,000 baht a month, even if you arn't - that's the minimum a Farang can earn, so effectively you do pay more tax than a Thai: It's all part of the wonderfullly efficient racism that makes up this country!

It's amazing, isn't it. We're only 15 comments in and already the "Democrats" and "Thaksin" have been brought up.

It's a forum about work permits NOT party politics.

Why don't you start a new "party political" thread.

[Suradit]

is in the news yet? sources?

It is interesting that someone can make a totally unsubstantiated claim, not only about an arrest & fine, but more importantly about the circumstances that lead up to the arrest, and off we go with the TIT comments and a whole thread lamenting Thai laws and their implementation.

Of course any allegations made about a farang, even if quoted from a news source with incriminating photos, result in a chorus of "innocent until proven guilty" and veiled sympathy for his plight at the hands of the nefarious Thais.

All rise. The Kangaroo Court is in session.

[bristolgeoff]

don,t shake hands then is the order of the day i think

[harrry]

don,t shake hands then is the order of the day i think

If he had wai d correctly would he have had a problem?

[BlackJack]

PM me on this

[phuketrichard]

Since Lopburi3 posted the reference to the minimum income requirements for ex-pats requesting extensions based on local employment, I'd like to raise the following (albeit off-topic) question:

Does anyone find it curious that the minimum "income" requirement for a retirement extension (65K baht/mo) is more than that for someone who is employed with a salary?

nothing here makes sense.

why does a retirement extension ask for 800,000 in the bank BUT if ur married u only need show 400,000??

Is it cause they figure u will be out whoring and drinking if ur single?

[sedeflonga]

TIT indeed.

It is always worth looking into if you would qualify for a work permit. I chose not to because of increased tax burden (foreigners pay higher tax than Thais), too much paperwork and large capital requirements (2m Baht minimum cash in the business to sponsor a work permit, if memory serves me right).

Can you provide me of a source for that.

I pay the same taxes as a Thai.

Pesonal income tax

5. Public entertainer remuneration

- Thai resident 5%

- non-resident 5% - 37 %

quoted from your quoted site

[jcartermad]

....A bar owner got arrested in Pattaya by immigration and had to pay 50,000 Baht, they said that as he shook customers hands as they entered the bar that is classed as work ? That don't sound right to me and it is also worrying for me, as i am just about to start a business for my Thai wife but will need my own business cards for English language enquiries, I was told i do not need a work permit for this is it true....

Seems that somebody didn't play the required game... Legal and illegal are very close together up here. It does not mean that things are legal after you've been polite to authorities, but most falang take it as it is... bribe.

Fatfather

Perhaps the chap did not put enough SUGAR in the TEA MONEY? A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down. Springle the sugar around and shake as many hands as you like me thinks.

[ableguy]

Read this:

www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/387389-thai-policemen-arrested-for-alleged-bribery/page__view__findpost__p__3783443

Inquiry officials...said they have accused the two police sergeant majors of extortion by means of weapons and detainment.

This shows that policemen do get arrested and presumably prosecuted if they extort money and a complaint is filed by the victim.

Probably refused to share it with someone higher up more likely.

[walf]

There is no 50k minimum that a foreigner must earn. There are requirement from Immigration for extension of stay and that is the high point of that, but even then it does not apply to everyone (teachers for example are exempt).

Nationality

Minimum Income

1. European countries (except Russia), Australia continent, Canada, Japan, and U.S.A.

Baht 50,000/month

2. South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and Hong Kong

Baht 45,000/month

3. Asian countries (except Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Cambodia, Myanmar, Laos and Vietnam), South America continent, Countries in Eastern Europe, Countries in Central America, Mexico, Turkey, Russia and South Africa

Baht 35,000/month

4. African countries (except South Africa), Cambodia, Myanmar, Laos and Vietnam

Baht 25,000/month

can anybody tell em the real information the trues about minimum salery

for falanfg ??

as my accountnat told me MINIMUM SALERY THB 50.000 / month and for that i have to pay INCOM TAX

what is the trues ?

Edited August 1, 2010 by Mario2008
reply placed out of quote

[stingray]

If it is your wifes business, as long as she employ s a minimum of 4 Thais she can emply you as as well. If you are married you can declare her income for joint taxation purposes.

I must admit I've never heard of Farang being arrested as long as they didn't go behind the bar or do abvious work activities like taking orders. But there is a concerted effort by the Democrat government to get rid of as many of us as possible- an effort that makes Thaksin's puny attempts look like chicken feed!

Poorsucker: Ok technically you pay the same as a Thai, but it will be assumed that you are earning 50,000 baht a month, even if you arn't - that's the minimum a Farang can earn, so effectively you do pay more tax than a Thai: It's all part of the wonderfullly efficient racism that makes up this country!

And a Thai doesn't need a WP or Company to open a Bar, so no taxes for them.

[Mario2008]

can anybody tell em the real information the trues about minimum salery

for falanfg ??

as my accountnat told me MINIMUM SALERY THB 50.000 / month and for that i have to pay INCOM TAX

what is the trues ?

For most jobs you have to earn a certain minimum ammount depending on your nationality, as shown in the list. This minimum ammount is needed to get an extension of stay from immigration, if you earn less you can still get a work permit. But no extensions of stay, you will have to continue getting (multiple)non-B visas.

Immigration wants you to proof your income with tax documents, showing you pay income tax. Some people earn less but file for 50,000 a month at the tax office so they can get an extension of stay from immigration.

[Dap]

Unless you are a passive investor, any involvement you have with the business will require a work permit. Just being on the premises can land you in trouble, how can you disprove the presumption of guilt? Work is anything the authorities say it is.

Without seeming sarcastic ... without a work permit, you are allowed to spend money and breathe in the realm.

[473geo]

Since Lopburi3 posted the reference to the minimum income requirements for ex-pats requesting extensions based on local employment, I'd like to raise the following (albeit off-topic) question:

Does anyone find it curious that the minimum "income" requirement for a retirement extension (65K baht/mo) is more than that for someone who is employed with a salary?

nothing here makes sense.

why does a retirement extension ask for 800,000 in the bank BUT if ur married u only need show 400,000??

Is it cause they figure u will be out whoring and drinking if ur single?

Would it be logical to predict single and retired may require additional funds for medical care? .....although in my opinion it is really a means test at a lower level. Even the Thai would find it difficult to separate a man and his wife, if push came to shove......so the cash in bank is again only realistically a lower level means test.

Edited August 1, 2010 by 473geo

[Arkady]

If you're looking for headaches, start a business here.

If not, earn your money other ways.

What you need to do is hire a good accountant who will fill you in on the necessary details to avoid said headaches.

As long as you don't draw a salary or dividends from the company, you can be a share holder with no need for a work permit (but don't do any work).

If your type of business allows, incorporate your company in your home country as well as Thailand, split revenues and take your salary from there. E.g., UK tax laws are much more favourable than Thailand; in Thailand dividends are classed as income and taxable at any level. In the UK, it's possible to withdraw £40k from the business and pay no tax, no NI, no employer's contributions etc.

You can therefore print the company details from your own country on your business cards. There is nothing to stop you doing work for your company back home whilst you are in Thailand.

Why would you want the trouble and expense of incorporating the business in a Western country where it has no operations? UK tax laws are not more favorable than Thailand's and dividends are taxable in both jurisdictions. However, in Thailand there is an option to pay a flat rate of 10% on dividends. If the business is actually, you can also receive a dividend on this basis, based on the shares you own, and you don't need a work permit for that. If she is willing you can get her to transfer her dividend to you. She should be receiving a salary from the business at least up to the amount that is tax free for employees. As a director, she does not pay social tax. If the business is not a company but is in her name as a sole proprietor, tax is paid on income at the progressive rates. If no credible accounts are provided, the Revenue Dept will assess tax based on reported sales alone and their fixed formula for expense deductions, if they believe reported sales. Otherwise they have the power to assess the sales themselves. If the business is substantial, a limited company is nearly always better. Small businesses can stay under the radar as sole proprietorships.

Judging by comments by Immigration recently, they are looking more closely into businesses in tourist resorts, particularly Pattaya, that are run by foreigners using Thai girlfriends or wives as nominees because they feel that too many foreign criminals have brought stolen money to Thailand and used it to open businesses in this way. Using Thai nominees is illegal under the Foreign Business Act, Immigration Laws and the Working of Aliens Act. Technically the Thai shareholders or proprietors should provide the funds for their own investments and foreigners without work permits are not permitted to perform any kind of work whatsoever in connection with the business. Acting as greeter in a bar is clearly work. Foreigners are permitted to own 49% of the shares in service businesses and can obtain work permits to act as managing director or in other positions if the business appears credible to the Labour Ministry and Immigration. Americans can own 100% of service businesses, except in certain sectors such as finance and logistics. To be honest Thailand doesn't need foreign investors to open more basic type bars and restaurants that can easily be opened and operated by Thais.

[souvenirdeparis]

Exactky right. If you are sitting in your wifes bar you can & will be arrested, jailed & deported for working.

Stay upstairs - or like the old timers - sit in the neighbors bar.

Rubbish,

You will not be arrested for sitting in your wifes bar or your own bar....you will be arrested if you are found to be doing any work, this includes doing the books, taking orders, serving drinks, hiring and firing staff or cleaning.

you may CHECK the books ; This from my guest house friend (who did everything in the house , including managing staff, cooking, building, serving .. I did help him too).

Have a nice Sunday Graham.

[souvenirdeparis]

what if you WAI the customers? :jap:

[Dap]

In so far as I understand it, 'work' in the Thai sense is 'the expending of energy' (sounds almost like a physics definition).

This means that of you get caught reading a newspaper and the official decides you are working then you're screwed. Certainly there are cases where simply sitting at a desk in the wife's office has been construed as work.

Bear in mind that the major cause of an official investigating someone, is a direct complaint or a word in an ear of the 'old buddies network' to settle a score or screw a competitor. Seems likely that someone wanted the hand-shaker screwed over.

For what it may be worth, stated on ... WORK PERMIT APPLICATION (THAILAND), 1. Definition: (Just under "Alien") ... "Work" means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

[surayu]

Rubbish,

You will not be arrested for sitting in your wifes bar or your own bar....

A friend of mine that like to spend his time relaxing in the cooffeeshop he's renting for the g/f, in Pattaya, got arrested some time ago and got released only after he paid 30.000 bahts (from the original 100.000 they wanted), being also told next time he will be found again in the cooffeeshop it will be arrested again....the place is currently still operating.

[CosmicSurfer]

If you're looking for headaches, start a business here.

If not, earn your money other ways.

....

If you do work in Thailand, you need a work permit. If it is only temporary (up to 15 days), check this out:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/386712-temporary-work-permit/

If you stay here permanently and work (for example as a bar owner), you need a real WP. Regardless of whether you have a company overseas and business cards with that address. You are here, you work, you pay income tax. It's that easy. All this incorporating a company in your home country is irrelevant to Thai labour law. Don't confuse people.

If you are a passive investor, you don't need a work permit. The moment you sign a check or shake a customer's hand, you are not passive any more and thus need a work permit. It's not really difficult to understand, is it?

Oh, and by the way, "work" according to Thai law does not require a salary. It does not matter whether you get paid for your work. So, even if you work for your company for free, you will still not be allowed to do that without a work permit. That you won't get a work permit if you have a salary of less than a certain amount, is another matter. Work for free is still work.

That's the way the Thai law works. My suggestion (as always) is to follow the law.

Under the Thai definition of WORK... If you are living in Thailand and have posted to this forun, (which is of course a Business) you have contributed content to a commercial enterprise in Thailand, and therefore, like a writer who contributes to a Thai newspaper, you have worked here in Thailand...

Everyone posting here shouldn't forget to run out and get their Work Permits before their next post.

And I don't think that having the ThaiVisa website hosted in Singapore, relieves us of the WP requirement, as they have offices/representatives here in Thailand.

CS

[gburns57au]

you may CHECK the books ; This from my guest house friend (who did everything in the house , including managing staff, cooking, building, serving .. I did help him too).

Have a nice Sunday Graham.

Check the books yes....book entry ....no....An english bar owner was deported after he did the books at the bar as his wife was sick, a not so friendly Thai bar owner dobbed him in.

Many ex pat bar owners sit in their bars drinking without a problem, but that is all they do.

Perhaps the man in the OP was outside of his bar shaking hands and then the customer entered his bar area....thereby soliciting custom or meet and greet. If he was inside his bar area and shook hands then he may have been construed as welcoming a friend. Sometimes it is a fine line.

Working this weekend my friend, will catch up with you after Tuesday and new results.

Edited August 1, 2010 by gburns57au

[gburns57au]

A friend of mine that like to spend his time relaxing in the cooffeeshop he's renting for the g/f, in Pattaya, got arrested some time ago and got released only after he paid 30.000 bahts (from the original 100.000 they wanted), being also told next time he will be found again in the cooffeeshop it will be arrested again....the place is currently still operating.

Coffee money is not the same as tea money then?........

If the amount was dropped by that much then it probably wasnt a fine.

[surayu]

Coffee money is not the same as tea money then?........

If the amount was dropped by that much then it probably wasnt a fine.

Well he's actually been taken away to the BiB place and then they manage to reach this agreement, however they would still NOT allow him to just sit down in his coffeeshop, he's not doing any works, people with a business here are being bullied by these muppets on a scandalous level.....i am not sure however on why they would target him, he barely have any customers there and he's just renting the place to keep the g/f busy, maybe the BiB have some relative in the same area and are worry about competition? or maybe they just don't like his thai landlord as they raided some of the LL other venues too...no idea.