Thai PM Abhisit Demands Cambodians Leave Disputed Border Area

[DickFarang]

Perhaps Mr A is a history buff - a nice little war did wonders for the re-election prospects of Mrs Thatcher and GW Bush. There could be an economic bonus as well if they sent every general they have to the war. If 90% were killed, their military would still be top heavy and it would save the budget a fortune.

Bush senior tried that trick too and he lost the elections.

[DickFarang]

What if they don't? SHOOT TO KILL?

As they did in Bangkok last April and May.

[Harpov]

Old strategy done by leaders... create a war (or the "bad guys") to get the country united and forget their domestic troubles.

Yes. Somewhat reminds me about the Argentinians pulling similar stunts over the Falklands early 80s. I let you do the math but as a hint - they didn't come out of it too well. Let's hope common sense prevails.

[Hardie]

Does any reader have a way of sending a communique to Prime Minister Abhisit suggesting that Thailand and Cambodia create a joint venture around the Temple, maybe even a larger area and be dedicated to defusing the landmines somehow?

Or, even to concede that small bit of territory to Cambodia? I see no economic impact in do so.

The NATO alliance nations that are responsible for planting the landmines ought to be assuming their responsibility to clean the area up!! I have seen documentaries about the loss of life--especially children--from landmines detonating.

Definitely a call to compassion and cooperation on many levels!

pii Chaai

Guess we can expect a closure of the border.

Regarding your comment about the economic impact: Tourism => $ Just imagine how many tourists will flock to see the temple (in Cambodia) through the main entrance (in Thailand). That's why neither side will concede that small piece of land.

I was there a few short years ago. There were no massive tourist flocks, I assure you. And Cambodia has built their own road now, which probably pisses Thailand off more than anything. It means a lot to them for their pride and history, nothing for Thailand except to brag and bully. Thailand should develop its own sites, like Ban Chiang in northern Isaan, also a world heritage site. Who's ever been there?

[Captain_Bob]

It seems that you can't really have your say on this forum. Mine got deleted although I was fairly civilised. I said the current government is good to show some balls in defending it's sovereign right to disputed land claims however it may turn out. Also I'm pretty sure Hun Sen misses playing with his corrupt pal Thaksin and equally despises Abhisit who thankfully won't dance to the same BS tune. Although I somewhat sympathise with the plea of some red rural farmers rights, as long as Thaksin is surreptitiously funding and feeding them with his deceptive self-serving lies they are on a losing game. Let's hope the Thai/Cambo dispute remains civil but if push comes to shove I wouldn't mind seeing Hun Sen handed his hat, especially when he supports that shameful corrupt Uncle Frank.

[rametindallas]

Poor Abhisit,

He looked clever and capable. The truth is that he is just one more puppet in the hands of PAD and army.

Thailand should really have an external look on the situation and see how its international image deteriorates everyday, not good for businnes, investments, tourism.... Time to wake up

It's been awhile since I blocked someone's comments and I've forgotten how. Will someone post the steps to block a certain person's posts?

[PingManDan]

Guess we can expect a closure of the border.

Thailand's Government is two faced double standard with their Emergency decree policy, now they want to have enemies on all it's borders, drug smugglers running amuck , where is Thaksin when Thailand really needs him.

[rametindallas]

Poor Abhisit,

He looked clever and capable. The truth is that he is just one more puppet in the hands of PAD and army.

Thailand should really have an external look on the situation and see how its international image deteriorates everyday, not good for businnes, investments, tourism.... Time to wake up

So are we saying that Thailand is not allowed to 'defend' it's territory.

The area is disputed but it is 'legally' Thailands.

That is the point... The territory in question is LEGALLY Cambodian, not some fantasy the Thai government continues to rant about....

Give it up Cardholder. He typed legally in all caps so he is more correct than you. Now, if you had used all caps first ...

[PingManDan]

Poor Abhisit,

He looked clever and capable. The truth is that he is just one more puppet in the hands of PAD and army.

Thailand should really have an external look on the situation and see how its international image deteriorates everyday, not good for businnes, investments, tourism.... Time to wake up

Time to cut his strings

[moetownblues]

The International Court has made it's ruling so just accept it Thailand and withdraw from Cambodian territory and the problem is solved.

[aussimike]

Yes well, the Thai Prime minister is saying by peaceful means and the Cambodian leader saying it will lead to bloodshed.

Would you not defend any property belonging to you? because I certainly would.

the strip of land does not belong to thailand -- it is legally Cambodian = granted to it by the UN - so what is the point of fighting of something you dont own - this is a classic case of trying to save face in typical Thai fashion - for gods sake there are more important issues this govt should be focusing in on - but it seems that they are using this as a distraction to the ongoing event of the PAD (their real bosses) and ops the army also - and to further bolster national pride - if there were further clashes over this land we can rest assured who the rest of the world is going to back -- the legal owners of course - the reality is its like two school kids fighting over a used pencil - and as one poster said - maybe thailand should pull out of the UN and go it alone - ya and pigs fly also -

thailand would get a bucket load of brownie points if they just said ok - we finally accept the judgement of the court - and conceed this is cambodian land for what its worth.

[Siripon]

Yes well, the Thai Prime minister is saying by peaceful means and the Cambodian leader saying it will lead to bloodshed.

Would you not defend any property belonging to you? because I certainly would.

the strip of land does not belong to thailand -- it is legally Cambodian = granted to it by the UN - so what is the point of fighting of something you dont own - this is a classic case of trying to save face in typical Thai fashion - for gods sake there are more important issues this govt should be focusing in on - but it seems that they are using this as a distraction to the ongoing event of the PAD (their real bosses) and ops the army also - and to further bolster national pride - if there were further clashes over this land we can rest assured who the rest of the world is going to back -- the legal owners of course - the reality is its like two school kids fighting over a used pencil - and as one poster said - maybe thailand should pull out of the UN and go it alone - ya and pigs fly also -

thailand would get a bucket load of brownie points if they just said ok - we finally accept the judgement of the court - and conceed this is cambodian land for what its worth.

The World court merely said the temple belongs to Cambodia. It said nothing about the surrounding land which is still disputed by Thailand and Cambodia.

Thailand offered to jointly administer the land with Cambodia but they refused.

[moetownblues]

Yes well, the Thai Prime minister is saying by peaceful means and the Cambodian leader saying it will lead to bloodshed.

Would you not defend any property belonging to you? because I certainly would.

the strip of land does not belong to thailand -- it is legally Cambodian = granted to it by the UN - so what is the point of fighting of something you dont own - this is a classic case of trying to save face in typical Thai fashion - for gods sake there are more important issues this govt should be focusing in on - but it seems that they are using this as a distraction to the ongoing event of the PAD (their real bosses) and ops the army also - and to further bolster national pride - if there were further clashes over this land we can rest assured who the rest of the world is going to back -- the legal owners of course - the reality is its like two school kids fighting over a used pencil - and as one poster said - maybe thailand should pull out of the UN and go it alone - ya and pigs fly also -

thailand would get a bucket load of brownie points if they just said ok - we finally accept the judgement of the court - and conceed this is cambodian land for what its worth.

The World court merely said the temple belongs to Cambodia. It said nothing about the surrounding land which is still disputed by Thailand and Cambodia.

Thailand offered to jointly administer the land with Cambodia but they refused.

Your thinking like a true thai. You can own the bricks but you can't own land. Generally when a court awards another a house, building whatever the dirt it's sitting on is normally part of the title. Yes I have an ex wife and she got the house and the land it is on.

[aussimike]

Some interesting documents here.

Even apparently contains some government documents showing various versions of maps with a little annotation.

http://sokheounpang.wordpress.com/2010/08/03/prasat-preah-vihear-maps/

As for this being a mini-Iraq, he is obviously starting off VERY small.

thai at heart - some very interesting stuff in your post - pity the vidio was cut -- but you can get the gist of the content - and the maps very interesting -- will continue to read this persons blog - very very interesting and i am sure the 99% of thais would not have a clue about this --

[march]

Clearly a diversion tactic - from what I don't know...but it might just be a rather sad effort to "conciliate" the Thai people in hatred against th Cambodians.

This time I don't think they will be able to hoodwink the public. We are witnessing government to satisfy yellow shirts, nothing more nothing less.

Perhaps 69.55% of the country would disagree... or 69.55% of the populations agrees with the "yellow shirts."

[march]

the strip of land does not belong to thailand -- it is legally Cambodian = granted to it by the UN

The World court merely said the temple belongs to Cambodia. It said nothing about the surrounding land which is still disputed by Thailand and Cambodia.

Thailand offered to jointly administer the land with Cambodia but they refused.

wow, deja vu.

Thank you, Siripon, for pointing out the truth... AGAIN. Seems necessary to do so on every page of the thread.

That is the point... The territory in question is LEGALLY Cambodian, not some fantasy the Thai government continues to rant about....

Could you please provide any documentation that states all the disputed territory in the temple area belongs legally and entirely to Cambodia?

It would settle everything if you could, but excuse me if I don't wait for it to be produced.

Edited August 11, 2010 by march

[Siripon]

Yes well, the Thai Prime minister is saying by peaceful means and the Cambodian leader saying it will lead to bloodshed.

Would you not defend any property belonging to you? because I certainly would.

the strip of land does not belong to thailand -- it is legally Cambodian = granted to it by the UN - so what is the point of fighting of something you dont own - this is a classic case of trying to save face in typical Thai fashion - for gods sake there are more important issues this govt should be focusing in on - but it seems that they are using this as a distraction to the ongoing event of the PAD (their real bosses) and ops the army also - and to further bolster national pride - if there were further clashes over this land we can rest assured who the rest of the world is going to back -- the legal owners of course - the reality is its like two school kids fighting over a used pencil - and as one poster said - maybe thailand should pull out of the UN and go it alone - ya and pigs fly also -

thailand would get a bucket load of brownie points if they just said ok - we finally accept the judgement of the court - and conceed this is cambodian land for what its worth.

The World court merely said the temple belongs to Cambodia. It said nothing about the surrounding land which is still disputed by Thailand and Cambodia.

Thailand offered to jointly administer the land with Cambodia but they refused.

Your thinking like a true thai. You can own the bricks but you can't own land. Generally when a court awards another a house, building whatever the dirt it's sitting on is normally part of the title. Yes I have an ex wife and she got the house and the land it is on.

I'm sorry you feel regret about your ex wife, actually the court should have given you half the house in which case you could have carried the bricks away, but perhaps there were children involved.

The World Court made no reference to the land surrounding the temple, not the land under the temple, and of course this opens up a can of worms because the actual temple complex is considerably larger than the main buildings.

It's a pity Thailand didn't really prepare itself in 1961 because it's plain geographically that the temple is in what is known as present day Thailand.

[whybother]

In 1904-1907, the French and Siamese decided on a line along the "watershed line of the mountain range". That puts the temple on Thai soil.

Some of the maps produced at that time moved off the watershed line around the area of the temple - including, apparently, some official maps - putting the temple on Cambodian soil. There was no discussion as to why the border moved off the watershed line at this area, so IMO, the Thais did not realise this at the time.

The Cambodians used these maps in their arguments to the World Court. The Thais used the principle of their agreement with the French of the watershed line.

The Cambodians won the decision in the world court because a majority (9 to 3) of judges ruled that, basically, the Thais had accepted the maps, so the maps should be used. The decision was NOT because of the Khmer heritage of the site.

It's easy now to see that the maps don't follow the mountain range watershed line (which was the generally agreed line at the time of the original demarcation) with all the satellites and technology, but in 1907 and even 1962 that wouldn't have been so easy.

Edited August 11, 2010 by whybother

[Latindancer]

Let's look at the big picture for a minute : people are arguing and killing each other about land; specifically a BUDDHIST temple ? The Buddha taught non-violence, yes ?

I think both sides are idiotic and hypocritical.

[Thai at Heart]

In 1904-1907, the French and Siamese decided on a line along the "watershed line of the mountain range". That puts the temple on Thai soil.

Some of the maps produced at that time moved off the watershed line around the area of the temple - including, apparently, some official maps - putting the temple on Cambodian soil. There was no discussion as to why the border moved off the watershed line at this area, so IMO, the Thais did not realise this at the time.

The Cambodians used these maps in their arguments to the World Court. The Thais used the principle of their agreement with the French of the watershed line.

The Cambodians won the decision in the world court because a majority (9 to 3) of judges ruled that, basically, the Thais had accepted the maps, so the maps should be used. The decision was NOT because of the Khmer heritage of the site.

It's easy now to see that the maps don't follow the mountain range watershed line (which was the generally agreed line at the time of the original demarcation) with all the satellites and technology, but in 1907 and even 1962 that wouldn't have been so easy.

As far as I understand, in 1904-1907, the temple was never drawn in Thai territory. It can argued back then that the Thai government overlooked this issue, which was either intentional or not. The land around it turned into a squabble after 1962 because Thailand occupied the temple and was compelled to give it back.

[joy16]

In 1904-1907, the French and Siamese decided on a line along the "watershed line of the mountain range". That puts the temple on Thai soil.

Some of the maps produced at that time moved off the watershed line around the area of the temple - including, apparently, some official maps - putting the temple on Cambodian soil. There was no discussion as to why the border moved off the watershed line at this area, so IMO, the Thais did not realise this at the time.

The Cambodians used these maps in their arguments to the World Court. The Thais used the principle of their agreement with the French of the watershed line.

The Cambodians won the decision in the world court because a majority (9 to 3) of judges ruled that, basically, the Thais had accepted the maps, so the maps should be used. The decision was NOT because of the Khmer heritage of the site.

It's easy now to see that the maps don't follow the mountain range watershed line (which was the generally agreed line at the time of the original demarcation) with all the satellites and technology, but in 1907 and even 1962 that wouldn't have been so easy.

As far as I understand, in 1904-1907, the temple was never drawn in Thai territory. It can argued back then that the Thai government overlooked this issue, which was either intentional or not. The land around it turned into a squabble after 1962 because Thailand occupied the temple and was compelled to give it back.

Your reference is the Siamese-French treaty or the map.

Which one are important than other, the 1904 and 1907 Siamese-French treatys or the maps?

And have you ever read the treatys?

[Thai at Heart]

In 1904-1907, the French and Siamese decided on a line along the "watershed line of the mountain range". That puts the temple on Thai soil.

Some of the maps produced at that time moved off the watershed line around the area of the temple - including, apparently, some official maps - putting the temple on Cambodian soil. There was no discussion as to why the border moved off the watershed line at this area, so IMO, the Thais did not realise this at the time.

The Cambodians used these maps in their arguments to the World Court. The Thais used the principle of their agreement with the French of the watershed line.

The Cambodians won the decision in the world court because a majority (9 to 3) of judges ruled that, basically, the Thais had accepted the maps, so the maps should be used. The decision was NOT because of the Khmer heritage of the site.

It's easy now to see that the maps don't follow the mountain range watershed line (which was the generally agreed line at the time of the original demarcation) with all the satellites and technology, but in 1907 and even 1962 that wouldn't have been so easy.

As far as I understand, in 1904-1907, the temple was never drawn in Thai territory. It can argued back then that the Thai government overlooked this issue, which was either intentional or not. The land around it turned into a squabble in 54 because Thailand occupied the temple and was compelled to give the temple back.

Your reference is the Siamese-French treaty or the map.

Which one are important than other, the 1904 and 1907 Siamese-French treatys or the maps?

And have you ever read the treatys?

The line was settled upon in 1907 as in the map, as far as I understand. Then there was a skirmish between Thailand and Cambodia in '54 and Thailand retook the temple, and were subsequently compelled to return it.

As far as I understand, when the temple was returned to Cambodia, the land around it was then demarked "under dispute" by Thailand despite being clearly not in line with the accepted maps drawn up in 1907. So if the discussion is whether the maps of 1907 are the accepted maps, it seems a little off base to redraw them in 1954 without both government's agreement.

[aussimike]

Yes well, the Thai Prime minister is saying by peaceful means and the Cambodian leader saying it will lead to bloodshed.

Would you not defend any property belonging to you? because I certainly would.

the strip of land does not belong to thailand -- it is legally Cambodian = granted to it by the UN - so what is the point of fighting of something you dont own - this is a classic case of trying to save face in typical Thai fashion - for gods sake there are more important issues this govt should be focusing in on - but it seems that they are using this as a distraction to the ongoing event of the PAD (their real bosses) and ops the army also - and to further bolster national pride - if there were further clashes over this land we can rest assured who the rest of the world is going to back -- the legal owners of course - the reality is its like two school kids fighting over a used pencil - and as one poster said - maybe thailand should pull out of the UN and go it alone - ya and pigs fly also -

thailand would get a bucket load of brownie points if they just said ok - we finally accept the judgement of the court - and conceed this is cambodian land for what its worth.

The World court merely said the temple belongs to Cambodia. It said nothing about the surrounding land which is still disputed by Thailand and Cambodia.

Thailand offered to jointly administer the land with Cambodia but they refused.

one can just imagine thailand and cambodia trying to jointly administer this tiny piece of land -- they would be fighting over which half or what slice each one would administer then there would be clashes over any encroachment over who was infact overseeing what part --- sure sounds like a storm in a teacup over nuffing --

[bristolgeoff]

this is a area of problem for many years to come it seems for the two countries involved.the end result may come one day

[moetownblues]

this is a area of problem for many years to come it seems for the two countries involved.the end result may come one day

"In its Judgment on the merits the Court, by nine votes to three, found that the Temple of Preah Vihear was situated in territory under the sovereignty of Cambodia and, in consequence, that Thailand was under an obligation to withdraw any military or police forces, or other guards or keepers, stationed by her at the Temple, or in its vicinity on Cambodian territory."

From what I read there is no dispute. It is Cambodian territory and by having thai troops there the Thai Government is in direct violation of a court order. The Prime Minister is the head of government and the buck stops with him. Why hasn't he been arrested and dragged before the International court for the breach. I get the feeling that Thailand do not beleive they are part of the international society and as such any rulings not in thier favour do not coun.

[spectrumisgreen]

Sadly seems both the Thai and the Cambodian Prime-ministers are doing the same thing - stirring up their own people into getting agitated over a small plot of disputed land, to divert focus from far more fundamental internal issues (while here in Thailand the PM, The Dems, The Yellows do... (?).. 'The Cansas City Shuffle', Bruce Willis' character called similar such tactics of diversion in Lucky Number Slevin... look out Reds and Thais generally, remember what happened to the 'fall-guy' looking the 'wrong' way in that movie!!! (More importantly the fact that the guy causing the diversion did exactly as he wanted from behind the duped fellow's back !!!) :jap:

[chmiroau]

Poor Abhisit,

He looked clever and capable. The truth is that he is just one more puppet in the hands of PAD and army.

Thailand should really have an external look on the situation and see how its international image deteriorates everyday, not good for businnes, investments, tourism.... Time to wake up

Its a really sad fact of life, its not the land, or the Temple that these two sides are fighting over, it is purely the money than can be made from tourism in the area. The other sad fact is that most of the money that would, could, should be made from a historical attraction like this will likely make its way into some private pocket, very likely from both sides.

Areas like this are important both to Thailand, Cambodia, Asia, Buddhism, and the worlds population in general. It would be too sensible for both countries to put down their guns, and shake hands, while working together to provide tourism jobs for people on both sides of the border, while using the money raised to preserve the area for all time. They do it in India, with many of their historical treasures, they do it here in Thailand too. Why is it that because of its proximity it will be a catalyst for war.

Personally, I will never go there, ever, so at the moment there is one, possibly many more that will forever boycott such an area.

[moetownblues]

"Foreign tourist need to pay 200 baht (6 dollars) to enter Thailand's Phra Vihan National Park, on the Thai side, and another 200 baht on the Cambodian side when entering the temple. There is also a 5 baht (per person) charge collected by the Thai military for use of their border road."

Maybe this what the dispute is over.

Say a bus load of 50 farang tourists.

National Park - 200 baht X 50 = 10,000 bht

Thai Military - 5 baht X 50 = 250 bht

Total - 10,250 baht

Why settle for this when you can have the takings from the temple also, total 20,250 baht excluding takings from refreshments, sourveniers and scams.

[moetownblues]

Poor Abhisit,

He looked clever and capable. The truth is that he is just one more puppet in the hands of PAD and army.

Thailand should really have an external look on the situation and see how its international image deteriorates everyday, not good for businnes, investments, tourism.... Time to wake up

Its a really sad fact of life, its not the land, or the Temple that these two sides are fighting over, it is purely the money than can be made from tourism in the area. The other sad fact is that most of the money that would, could, should be made from a historical attraction like this will likely make its way into some private pocket, very likely from both sides.

Areas like this are important both to Thailand, Cambodia, Asia, Buddhism, and the worlds population in general. It would be too sensible for both countries to put down their guns, and shake hands, while working together to provide tourism jobs for people on both sides of the border, while using the money raised to preserve the area for all time. They do it in India, with many of their historical treasures, they do it here in Thailand too. Why is it that because of its proximity it will be a catalyst for war.

Personally, I will never go there, ever, so at the moment there is one, possibly many more that will forever boycott such an area.

Preah Vihear, Cambodia - Preah Vihear, a millennium-old temple dedicated to the Hindu God Shiva - the divine destroyer. Can't see where Buddhism comes into it.

[Oberkommando]

I don't know what is a worse image in my mind, Thaksin's inane grin with $$$$ in his eyes as he corrupted another election, or Abhisit getting gang banged by the PAD hierarchy.

At least now you acknowledge that it is better the devil you know.

And to some of the posters here claiming the temple is Thai and it is on Thai soil, please get a grip. You at least have the benefits of a decent education and common sense.