Foregn Atm Fee

[Thighlander]

As long as people are willing to pay the 150, I am sure they will keep charging it. It would be nice to see a semi-organized boycott. The most profitable airline in the US, (Southwest), does not charge a bag fee.........maybe we can get AEON T-shirts or something.

[OriginalPoster]

A Burger Shop sells Burgers for a profit, and a bank sells money, also for a profit. Both businesses are in the business of making money from their products and services, so why shouldn't a bank charge for using the services they have on offer?

Yes, they've proved to be greedy, and yes, they can sometimes be misleading by the way they do things, but banks, just like their customers, are addicted to the biggest drug in the world, which is MONEY!

And cash, unlike many other things we buy, does not get sold off cheap to make way for new stock, nor has there ever been the option of buy $1 and get $1 free, as might be the case with a tube of Colgate toothpaste!

Aitch

The collusion on prices is the main the difference the banks and burger shops in your example. Burger shops cannot get together and make sure that no one charges less than 150 baht for a hamburger.

Edited August 26, 2010 by OriginalPoster

[hml367]

More information.

Not disputing the ATM fee, charged or not charged in Thailand.

This is a paragraph from a United States based financial institution for "ATM CARD/VISA Check Card Disclosure"

Most cards which are branded Visa (or any other brand) will follow Visa's (or another brand's) published rate. However, this particular institution is reserving the right to make a "plus or minus" adjustment to that rate.

"Foreign Transactions. Card withdrawals made in foreign countries and foreign currencies will be charged to the checking and/or savings in U. S. Dollars. The exchange rate between the transaction currency and the billing currency used for processing international transactions is:

A rate selected by Visa from the range of rates available in wholesale currency markets for the applicable central processing date, which rate may vary from the rate Visa itself receives, or

The government-mandated rate in effect for the applicable central processing date,

in each instance, plus or minus any adjustment determined by the issuer."

This is for a Visa branded ATM/Check Card. As I have posted before, the card could be issued by any insitution willing to take the economic and security burden. Don't forget to look at the last paragraph.

What this indicates to me is that each person should check with their own card issuing financial institution to find out what they could be charged. I would not take anything posted on a forum for more than being information provided and to be verified personally.

MSPain

[CMX]

I agree with the statement above about what the card says. It confirms precisely the trend of the thread here, which states that Visa/MC have fixed charges, unless there's a governmental factor.

And it says that our own bank - in this instance - reserves the right to use the screwdriver to screw from us our money.

I'm guessing that most of us have considered the usefulness of our choices and their relative charges. I have made identical withdrawals (same source) from different Thai banks within minutes

- and identical test amounts withdrawals from my own institutions at home, collecting a fixed amount at the counter of the same Thai bank.

Then look up my statements next day. And I find out who are responsible for financial any advantage or disadvantage - my banks/institutions at home, with their mealy-mouthed attorney words printed so small that you need 3-power reading glasses to read 'em. I set up to use the best or search for another.

Main point continues that Thailand's ATM's charge excessive amounts - except our friendly one right now.

Second point is that our own outfits have to be continuously monitored, the rascals.

Third point is that ThVi advice must be selected with care as to who really knows as opposed to those who thinks it is important to be right<different types, as a rule.

Which one am I, you ask? Er.

Edited August 27, 2010 by CMX

[hml367]

If anyone would like some insight into the future of ATM fees for foreign card transactions, you can look at a web site called creditcards dot com. Search for an article, "Credit card foreign transaction fees going up".

In my experience in the U.S. financial field, financial institutions use the fees charged as a profit center. There are a number of reasons for that which I will not get into.

The above article may be interesting to some. Of course the article is from a U.S. based financial institution's perspective.

MSPain

Edited August 27, 2010 by hml367

[JimGant]

JFC, the 55 clicks was a joke, of course, based on an old thread, where I remember you walking around with a lantern, looking for the few remaining honest ATM machines (I'm joking about the lantern, of course )

But, you're right, living in Bangkok, with easy access to transport, finding an Aeon ATM isn't, I guess, that big a deal. For me, however, I'd have to drive 20 clicks into the city to find one of the two Aeon ATM machines (I think that's the number I heard....). And I'd have to have one of those semi-unique fee free ATM cards, like E*Trade, Schwaab, some others I'm sure, that charge no fees -- and totally refund the network's foreign transaction fee. I'm sure I could get one, if I really wanted to add to my plastic collection. But, I'm certainly not going to inconvenience myself - and burn up over 150bt of gas - to find an Aeon machine in order to save 150bt.

No fee on the U.S. end. And no fee on the Thai end... That's the way to go, if a person can set it up right. And even for someone living upcountry, they could get by in the same way by using regular Thai bank ATMs via a U.S. card that reimburses those fees...

Totally correct, of course. Netting the IER in obtaining your baht can't be beat, as you and I discussed months ago on another thread. So, do you know which of the fee free cards you're familiar with reimburse ATM owner fees? That might be an option to consider -- if the reimbursement isn't too much of a hassle. I say that because, the following is what one financial institution (USAA) says about reimbursements:

Keep in mind that we can only refund ATM fees when the ATM owner systematically notifies us that a fee was assessed. If the ATM owner does not systematically notify us that a fee was assessed the fee can not be refunded.

That tells me I might not get reimbursed, at least by USAA (but I've never tried, so I don't know --hml367, what's your experience?)

Anyway, right now I'm happy with my local bank set-up. Many times, as I need more than the 25k ATM max, I'll withdraw what's needed at the counter. So, having an account with my local bank is a convenience I'd want to keep (many other reasons too, like direct debit utility payment). And, I doubt I'd keep that account filled by continuously hitting the outside ATM machine for 25k per (assuming I found a fee free, reimbursable card Stateside). But, if that same card worked over-the-counter, for much larger amounts needed to fill my Thai bank account, well, that would be worth the .55% cost off the IER that I currently pay for ACH transfers. Hmmmmm.

[hml367]

Jim,

I believe USAA bank reimburses active duty members who use their plastic in foreign ATM's. They do not for members who are not on active duty. That is my experience. I am waiting now for a current disclosure notice from them which I requested this morning. I will pm you with that so as not to add cannon fodder here.

If you have internet access to your USAA account you can contact them very easily. They have been helpful and quick in answering my questions.

By the way, in a previous post I mentioned exchange rates from transferring monies through USAA. I tested transferring money to Bangkok Bank, New York, from USAA bank. Final settlement was to my account with Bangkok Bank in Thailand of course. This obviously does not involve Visa or Mastercard as some repliers to the post assumed. When I did this test I received the Bangkok Bank Thailand exchange rate which was lower than the Visa exchange rate. Because I draw my money inside Bangkok Bank branches I do not have the ATM fee involved. Bangkok Bank does have an upper limit on their fees for transferring money this way, however, it would take a very large sum to make up for the difference in exchange rate. Of course the exchange rates on each method can change.

MSPain

JFC, the 55 clicks was a joke, of course, based on an old thread, where I remember you walking around with a lantern, looking for the few remaining honest ATM machines (I'm joking about the lantern, of course )

But, you're right, living in Bangkok, with easy access to transport, finding an Aeon ATM isn't, I guess, that big a deal. For me, however, I'd have to drive 20 clicks into the city to find one of the two Aeon ATM machines (I think that's the number I heard....). And I'd have to have one of those semi-unique fee free ATM cards, like E*Trade, Schwaab, some others I'm sure, that charge no fees -- and totally refund the network's foreign transaction fee. I'm sure I could get one, if I really wanted to add to my plastic collection. But, I'm certainly not going to inconvenience myself - and burn up over 150bt of gas - to find an Aeon machine in order to save 150bt.

No fee on the U.S. end. And no fee on the Thai end... That's the way to go, if a person can set it up right. And even for someone living upcountry, they could get by in the same way by using regular Thai bank ATMs via a U.S. card that reimburses those fees...

Totally correct, of course. Netting the IER in obtaining your baht can't be beat, as you and I discussed months ago on another thread. So, do you know which of the fee free cards you're familiar with reimburse ATM owner fees? That might be an option to consider -- if the reimbursement isn't too much of a hassle. I say that because, the following is what one financial institution (USAA) says about reimbursements:

Keep in mind that we can only refund ATM fees when the ATM owner systematically notifies us that a fee was assessed. If the ATM owner does not systematically notify us that a fee was assessed the fee can not be refunded.

That tells me I might not get reimbursed, at least by USAA (but I've never tried, so I don't know --hml367, what's your experience?)

Anyway, right now I'm happy with my local bank set-up. Many times, as I need more than the 25k ATM max, I'll withdraw what's needed at the counter. So, having an account with my local bank is a convenience I'd want to keep (many other reasons too, like direct debit utility payment). And, I doubt I'd keep that account filled by continuously hitting the outside ATM machine for 25k per (assuming I found a fee free, reimbursable card Stateside). But, if that same card worked over-the-counter, for much larger amounts needed to fill my Thai bank account, well, that would be worth the .55% cost off the IER that I currently pay for ACH transfers. Hmmmmm.

Edited August 27, 2010 by hml367

[jfchandler]

HML, thanks for posting that info, but I'm not sure what it's supposed to prove...

1. Not all banks necessarily may have the same policy that yours does...and indeed, mine don't and have different language....

and 2. Even though banks may have language in their policies, that doesn't mean they always follow it to the letter. And in the case of the language you cited, it offered the bank several different options on how to handle foreign transactions. Which one they use, I doubt we know...

In any event, my banks have different language than that from yours... Here's what my card agreement says....

"Foreign currency conversion and cross border transactions:

If you effect a transaction with your card in a currency other than US Dollars, MasterCard will convert the charge into a US Dollar amount. The MasterCard currency conversion procedure includes use of either a government-mandated exchange rate or a wholesale exchange rate selected by MasterCard. The exchange rate MasterCard uses will be a rate in effect on the day the transaction is processed. This rate may differ from the rate in effect on the date of the purchase or the date the transaction was posted to your account.

MasterCard charges us a Currency Conversion Assessment of 20 basis points (.2% of the transaction) for performing the currency conversion. In addition, MasterCard charges us an Issuer Cross-Border Assessment of 80 basis points (.8% of the transaction) on all cross-border transactions regardless of whether there is a currency conversion. As a result, we charge you a corresponding fee as disclosed separately."

I have other accounts that don't charge any foreign currency fee and do withdrawals and purchases almost exactly at whatever is that day's InterBank Exchange Rate.. But for this account, it does charge me a total 1% fee on foreign transactions, and each foreign transaction made incurs three different charges in my account ledger: the withdrawal or purchase itself, the .8% cross border fee, and the .2% currency conversion fee....

Maybe you should consider some different banking options... If you need some good recommendations, just PM me....

PS- re my comment above about banks not always following their own policies, I have one well-known bank whose policy says they DON'T reimburse ATM fees incurred on foreign ATM withdrawals outside the U.S. And yet, for me and others here on TV who have the same account, they DO indeed reimburse all foreign ATM charges automatically, every time, and without any need from any request or documentation from the account holder... Just one example.

BTW, I remember being on the losing end of an argument with other TV members on that subject... They already had that particular account, and kept posting here how it reimbursed the Thai ATM fees...

And I remember going to the bank's web site, and reading their policy, which said they and still today says they don't. But I figured, OK, the TV guys must be onto something. So I opened the account, tried it, and sure enough, what the bank does is different from their policy. And I've been enjoying ATM fee reimbursements worldwide ever since...

Edited August 27, 2010 by jfchandler

[jfchandler]

I guess I'm losing my sense of humor, when it comes to banking things, Jim

But indeed, there are different best scenarios for different people, based on their needs and circumstances...

My only point is to say to folks...at least know what options are available out there, know what you're paying for what, and then make your own best choices....

In other words, be an educated/aware consumer.

PS - I never used a lantern... I was using GPS...

JFC, the 55 clicks was a joke, of course, based on an old thread, where I remember you walking around with a lantern, looking for the few remaining honest ATM machines (I'm joking about the lantern, of course )

[JimGant]

PS - I never used a lantern... I was using GPS..

I knew that....

[hml367]

JFC,

Maybe you should consider some different banking options... If you need some good recommendations, just PM me....

I do not need, but thank you for your offer.

MSPain

Edited August 27, 2010 by hml367

[JimGant]

I believe USAA bank reimburses active duty members who use their plastic in foreign ATM's. They do not for members who are not on active duty.

Yeah, that caught my attention in a prior post of yours. So, I queried USAA, and here's what I got back:

Effective March 2009, USAA will reimburse foreign transaction fees for up to 12 months for members who are deployed. This benefit applies to all USAA-issued VISAs, MasterCards and Debit MasterCards. American Express cards issued by USAA are currently excluded from this benefit. We regret to inform you that this benefit does not apply to retired members of the military.

Their Debit cards are dual-purpose (ATM/Debit), but I wonder if ATM transactions are excluded....? Anyway, doesn't apply to me -- I retired with leather flying helmets.

Just wonder how they determine you're "deployed," and not a Pentagon pogue on vacation in Patpong...?

[mesquite]

Yet more info on ATM cards and forex issues:

http://www.flyerguide.com/wiki/index.php/Credit/Debit/ATM_Cards_and_Foreign_Exchange

[jfchandler]

I was going to add, the exchanges above are a very good reason for keeping this kind of thread open.... because everyone paying attention learns from what other members' experiences and information are, notwithstanding the occasional personal jibes.

When I first came to Thailand, I knew next to nothing about banking in a foreign country, never having lived abroad before. Foreign currency exchange fees, huh??? Interbank Exchange Rates (IER), what??? Cross border transaction fees, what the hey are those? Dynamic Currency Conversion who???

But back in the U.S., I always had a general idea that guided my banking, which was, "It's my money and I don't want to pay anyone for the right to access it or use it." Meaning, no monthly account fees, no ATM fees, no BS fees period, as best as I could arrange that, and so I took that same philosophy with when I moved here...

I really have to credit TV member Jim Gant here for originally showing me much of what I needed to know about banking and finance in Thailand, and enabling me to understand enough that I could then take that knowledge and run with it... And I've been doing that ever since.

Probably the best thing anyone living here ought to know and understand, as Jim has explained here, is the Interbank Exchange Rate and where to find its daily posting at, among other places, the Bank of Thailand's web site. No matter what U.S. bank or cards you're using, you want to compare the exchange rates you're getting from them with the IER rate, which about as good as you're able to get in any kind of consumer transaction.

If your real final rate (after any fees) is at or close to the IER, then you're doing good. The farther away the rate you're getting is from the IER, the more possibility you have to make other arrangements that will be more cost effective.

Maybe the day will come when I'll have to start paying some banking transaction fees. But right now, I don't. And I'm going to do everything I can to put off that day for as far as possible into the future. It's my money, not the bank's, and I want to spend it for me and my family...not give it away to bankers.

[Contractor]

For those with UK bank accounts, there was an interesting piece about overseas ATM withdrawals on the BBC Radio 4 Moneybox programme last week.

If you can get to it, it should be on iPlayer or available as a podcast from the Moneybox website.

Rgds

Edited August 28, 2010 by Contractor

[micman]

But, you're right, living in Bangkok, with easy access to transport, finding an Aeon ATM isn't, I guess, that big a deal. For me, however, I'd have to drive 20 clicks into the city to find one of the two Aeon ATM machines (I think that's the number I heard....). And I'd have to have one of those semi-unique fee free ATM cards, like E*Trade, Schwaab, some others I'm sure, that charge no fees -- and totally refund the network's foreign transaction fee. I'm sure I could get one, if I really wanted to add to my plastic collection. But, I'm certainly not going to inconvenience myself - and burn up over 150bt of gas - to find an Aeon machine in order to save 150bt.

There are Aeon ATMs all over Bangkok and Thailand, here is their website with all of their ATM locations in Thailand. Just use the search feature @ the bottom of the page. You can switch to Thai language @ the top right of the page.

http://www.aeonthailand.com/lang/en/menu/Service_Location/region/Northern#soutput

[CMX]

Here in Chiang Mai, however, there are only 5 locations for Aeon ATM machines and offices added together. Compared to Bankok Bank, let's say, or Siam Commercial (each of which has dozens and dozens of ATM's all around town - as do a number of others), using Aeon as an unplanned source for funds is more difficult. Also, Aeon's machines have sometimes limited my withdrawals, perhaps because they are low on cash (Sundays at a mall).

My many across-the-counter transactions have gone well, generally, but are simply time consuming for all concerned. It is irrefutable that the 150 baht flat ATM charge is intended specifically as a special fee aimed at foreigners.