Where There'S A Will There'S A Way

[NancyL]

This recounts the recent experience that Hubby and I had in getting a Thai Will so that in the unfortunate event one of us dies the other is able to readily obtain the funds from the deceased's Thai bank accounts.

Like many foreign retirees, we each have funds in a Thai bank to meet the requirements for renewing a Thai O-A retirement visa. Also, we have a joint account in that same bank used to pay regular bills like condo rental, utilities, spending money, etc. That's it -- no other Thai assets; no car, condo ownership or other property.

We have U.S. Wills where each leaves everything to the other and in the event we both go at once, then everything is left to a charity. Neither of us have children and our parents are deceased. Sounds like a simple situation, doesn't it? Except every time talked about getting a Thai lawyer to do a Thai Will, numbers like 8,000 - 10,000 baht to make Wills were tossed about. But, thanks to previous postings on this forum and the experience of a western acquaintance, we were able to get Thai Wills for a total price of less than 3000 baht by working with the Amphur office.

Why have a Thai Will? I discussed this with the bank branch manager and learned that yes, our U.S. Wills are valid in Thailand, but they'd have to "go thru" the Thai court system, where they'd be translated into Thai and the court would verify that we don't have any Thai children, or other relatives. This process would take a few months and meanwhile the accounts would be frozen and the survivor couldn't withdraw funds, including the funds in the joint account. That conversation motivated us to obtain Thai Wills.

Here are the steps to getting simple Thai Wills.

First we visited the Amphur office to see if it was possible. We're residents of Amphur Muang (Chiang Mai City). An Amphur is a government unit similar to a county. The office is called "thee nai waa amphur chiang mai" and is located on Intawarorot Rd. in the old central city. It's two blocks west of the Three Kings Monument, on the north side of Intawarorot Rd. Upon arrival we told someone behind the counter that we wanted a "pee nai gaam", or Will. They directed us to a second floor office where we met with "Jazz", the pee nai gaam lady. From her, we learned that we needed to obtain:

1. Letter of Residency from Immigration, not more than 15 days old (cost 500 baht per person)

2. Medical Certificate of mental competency from a doctor, not more than 30 days old (cost 500 baht per person at CM Ram, 4th floor Specialty clinic)

3. One copy of the first page of our passports, visa and first page of the bank account passbooks, with two copies for the joint account.

After obtaining all these, we returned to the Amphur office, turned in the paperwork and waited for an hour while Jazz turned out the documents. Then we sat with her and (at her direction) carefully checked the bank account numbers, name, address, etc. Then the documents went off to the supervisor and he also checked everything. The original Wills were handed to us in sealed, stamped envelopes with caution not to open them until the party dies and we also received copies of the Wills. The Amphur kept a copy and Jazz said they would be on file at the Amphur office. (Payment to the Amphur office, 150 baht per person.)

We took copies of the Wills to our bank manager and he reviewed them carefully and pointed out their limitations (more on that). Once convinced we understood the limitations, he made copies and said they'd be on file at the bank along with our original application for the accounts. In the event of death, the survivor will take the sealed Will to the bank manager and after he verifies that there isn't a more recent version on file at the Amphur office, he will release the funds immediately to the survivor.

Our Thai Wills are limited -- they cover only the bank accounts listed. Also, they don't address what happens if we both die at the same time in an unfortunate accident. And, there are no provisions to split the estate, i.e. give some funds to a relative, some to a charity, some to a friend, etc.

But, the Amphur "pee nai gaam" is very inexpensive and fairly easy. You don't have to be married to the beneficiary and I know same sex couples that have obtained these Wills. The parties can be either Thai citizens or foreigners. The doctor's certificate of mental competency seemed odd, but obtaining it consisted of a 15 minute conversation the doctor where we talked about our daily activities and he asked us to compare and contrast the process of obtaining a Will in the U.S. vs. in Thailand. At first I thought, he should know this already and then I realized he wanted to make certain we knew what we were being asked to sign!

The cost would have been lower if we had a "Yellow Book" and we probably could have paid less for the Medical Certificate at someplace other than CM Ram.

Some friends have said they don't need a Thai Will because their joint account is written as "Mr. X OR Mrs. X", not "Mr. X AND Mrs. X". They claim that upon death the survivor can simply go to the bank and withdraw all the funds in the account. Wrong, according to the bank manager. Upon death, the bank freezes all accounts that list the deceased until they see a Will or a ruling from the Thai courts. Nor do they assume that the survivor is entitled to 50% of the funds in a two-person joint account.

Jazz, the pee nai gaam lady at the Amphur office is very helpful but her English skills are limited. I've had some Thai language training and we brought our big Thai-English and English-Thai dictionaries to the meetings with her, with all parties using them often. The little pocket dictionary didn't have the necessary vocabulary. I don't think we could have handled this transaction at the Amphur office without some knowledge of the Thai language.

The real test, of course, will be if one of us dies in Thailand and the other will discover if we've created proper Thai Wills.

[mcgriffith]

Excellent post, NancyL!

It so happens I'm in the process of doing the same; ie setting up a Thai will.

Just this morning I got the names of 3 Thai lawyers from a friend for that purpose.

I still may go with a lawyer for the reason you stated of certain limitations with the amphur will.

I have multiple bank accts; some are fixed deposit and when they mature I open up another acct with a different acct number. Also, I have various possesions (antique art, motorcycles, etc) and misc. goods that I would like to disburse to either my estate in the US, or to Thai friends here.

With that extra complexity, it might just be worth paying a bit more to document all the possesions, and make provisions for bank accts that might have changing numbers over time.

I'll pursue both tracks, and report back here on my experiences when all is completed.

Thanks again for your informative post.:jap:

[tijnebijn]

Very good and informative helpful post , can't green the Op I see , but its worth a double green for whats it worth .

Can you only make the will at the Ampuh your residence is in ? Cause my accounts are in the big City and my home is at another ampuh , guess the local ampuh Will , will do everywhere in Thailand .

Don't understand fully what you mean with limitations , could someone say something more

about that . Also wonder when making the Will if it is only for the existing accounts or also for accounts opened new , bit strange if it wasn't . Statement should be all of my accounts etc .

From other reports I don't trust Thai lawyers , know some are good , but don't like the idea

of my heirs or me from my wife are dependent on how the lawyer will execute our Will .

At the Ampuh I think would be better , I'm still bit cautious but try to understand what's the right thing to do as many of us .

again OP , thanks for sharing your experience with us .

[Irene]

NancyL

Thank you for your first-hand information on the subject we are pondering of doing.

We already have our joint bank accounts everywhere where either of us has the authority to withdraw. We do not think we need our bankers to get involved with our will because one of us can operate the accounts any time. But if we both are unlucky and have to leave the world at the same time, then by going through a district office as already carried out by you would be a help and the copy of that will could be kept in a safe or left with a close friend or the family's lawyer. (Ours is intended to be kept in a safe and known only to both of us. Though this does not cover the risk of our demise at the same time. But we have left a hint with our kids of the existence of our note book used daily in tracing the movement of our assets).

Our intention could be spelt out clearly in the will officially made at the district office. It is well-known among Thais that this is the most reliable and least disputable means. Bankers and lawyers are not necessary. Lawyers are required by the beneficiaries when the ownership of land and stocks of the deceased have to be ordered by a court to be changed to the beneficiaries. With an official will, the cases as known to us were simply processed at the court's level and not much lawyer's fees involved and no dispute has been known to us.

I am certain that our plan is not cast-iron but seems to us as rather practical. I welcome any observation of this plan.

[NancyL]

Oops, I just re-read my OP and realized I listed the Thai name for the Amphur office incorrectly -- it's "thee waa gaan amphur chiang mai". Sorry, it's too late for me to edit my OP.

I'm not a lawyer so I can't address whether you can file a Will at an Amphur office outside your Amphur of residency. Why not go to the office you'd like to use and ask them? They aren't very busy in the early morning and all the staff at the office in CM seemed willing to help, although their English skills were limited.

The limitations of the Amphur Will is that it covers only the listed accounts, not any future accounts and does not address what happens to the accounts if we both die at the same time. Our bank manager said we could have included a line about the Will covering all other assets we may acquire in the future, but this option wasn't offered at the Amphur office when Jazz was telling us how to do the Will. If we acquire additional assets, like a car or other bank accounts, then we'll do a new Amphur Will and I'll write out the desire to have a clause covering all future assets in advance of the visit to the Amphur office.

Irene, you may wish to meet with your bank branch manager and discuss what happens to your joint accounts in the event one party dies. Ours said that the joint account would be frozen until either a Thai Will is presented or the Thai courts were able to rule on our foreign Will. It's a good idea to have a copy of the Will on file at the bank. That way, there's no question about the Will being valid if the beneficiary arrives at the bank with the original Will after your death.

It's good to learn, Irene, that you know people who have executed Amphur Wills and found them to be very trouble-free.

[Irene]

Irene, you may wish to meet with your bank branch manager and discuss what happens to your joint accounts in the event one party dies. Ours said that the joint account would be frozen until either a Thai Will is presented or the Thai courts were able to rule on our foreign Will. It's a good idea to have a copy of the Will on file at the bank. That way, there's no question about the Will being valid if the beneficiary arrives at the bank with the original Will after your death.

NancyL, I have a different view on relationship with Thai bankers. My joint account can never be closed upon one's death because the fund will be trasnferred to one spouse's single bank account on the day of the unfortunate demise. So my cash will not be frozen. Getting a court's order is time-consuming. You now give me an idea of having to write up step-by-step for those left-behind to do. I don't mind waiting for a court's order on change of name on my titled assets but not on cash. I have seen so many sad cases of ultra-caution of bankers in demanding a court's order all the time not satisfied even with a Thai Will. My relationship with bankers is close but not that close for them to inconvenient me.

You are one step ahead of me on Amphur Wills which is a must for all to do. It is simple and cheap. It is closest in having a notarised will. Even better, the notary is a government official who is most neutral. I now have to start rolling on this one. Just like other forms of wills, one can change one's mind at any time and better still with records officially kept leaving no room for dispute on which will is the latest.

I thank you for sharing your experience with us. It has now caused me to initiate the steps.

[Irene]

tijnebijn,

Your cautionary stance on Thai lawyers for inheritance matters is well warranted. Amphur is the best. It is their official duty to render this service with no favour or prejudice.

It is good of NancyL to describe her experiences and has prompted me to do the same when all the time I knew that this is the best course.

[Loaded]

Thanks Nancy. I had been wondering how to go about this myself.

[elektrified]

Thanks NancyL. Excellent post.

[NancyL]

Irene, you raise a point I wondered about. How does the bank know when to freeze all the accounts of a deceased person? There could be time for a joint account holder to clean out an account before the bank is notified.

But, we don't want to count on the survivor having enough time to do this immediately upon the death of a spouse. After all, the survivor probably would have other things to do right after the death of a spouse and may possiblity be injured, out of the country or otherwise incapable of going to the bank. Besides, we each have accounts in our own name for the retirment visa requirements and I don't think one party can close out the other party's account.

[Irene]

Irene, you raise a point I wondered about. How does the bank know when to freeze all the accounts of a deceased person? There could be time for a joint account holder to clean out an account before the bank is notified.

But, we don't want to count on the survivor having enough time to do this immediately upon the death of a spouse. After all, the survivor probably would have other things to do right after the death of a spouse and may possiblity be injured, out of the country or otherwise incapable of going to the bank. Besides, we each have accounts in our own name for the retirment visa requirements and I don't think one party can close out the other party's account.

NancyL, this is a practical situation when banks are afraid to be involved in legal disputes with any potential benficiaries for not freezing a subject account soon enough. Therefore, if they know of the death of one party, it is their routine to freeze the account immediately. Normally, banks are not looking out for anyone's death unless through graphvine or publicity or being innocently informed by the party.

If one has a joint account and can be withdrawn by either person, then you do have time to issue a cheque to cover almost all the sum for depositing in an individual bank account.- effectively transferring from a joint account to an individual bank account. Effectively, no account is closed. This practice is meant to avoid the survivor from being short of money when it is most needed and not a sham so long as the diversion is not in conflict with the intention of the Will.