Mexican Standoff In Phuket Property Market

[LivinginKata]

It may have been asked before but what happens if you have a 30 year lease and decide to sell after, say, 10 years? Are you selling a 20 year lease which is not an attractive proposition to a prospective buyer and impossible to sell to a Thai? Does that mean that any property purchased on such a leasehold basis is effectively a depreciating asset?

I really don't know the answer to this one but I am sure there is someone out there who does.

In your example the buyer would only have the remaining 20 year lease. That's usually why 30 year lease properties sell for a lower price than freehold. My first house in Patong was 5 years into the 30 years when I bought it, I sold it after 4 years and still made a modest appreciation on the price I paid. I would expect that the price would drop significantly after half way through the 30 years.

[katabeachbum]

It may have been asked before but what happens if you have a 30 year lease and decide to sell after, say, 10 years? Are you selling a 20 year lease which is not an attractive proposition to a prospective buyer and impossible to sell to a Thai? Does that mean that any property purchased on such a leasehold basis is effectively a depreciating asset?

I really don't know the answer to this one but I am sure there is someone out there who does.

In your example the buyer would only have the remaining 20 year lease. That's usually why 30 year lease properties sell for a lower price than freehold. My first house in Patong was 5 years into the 30 years when I bought it, I sold it after 4 years and still made a modest appreciation on the price I paid. I would expect that the price would drop significantly after half way through the 30 years.

in the lease agreement as registered in land title, it can be stated whenever lessee want to transfer rights according to lease, a new agreement is to be issued/registered valid for 30 years

[LivinginKata]

in the lease agreement as registered in land title, it can be stated whenever lessee want to transfer rights according to lease, a new agreement is to be issued/registered valid for 30 years

Not in the case of my 30 year lease. Yes, lease can be transferred, but not for a new 30 year period. Just for the balance of the remaining years of the original 30 years. I thought this was the case with most 30 year leases ?

[thaiwanderer]

in the lease agreement as registered in land title, it can be stated whenever lessee want to transfer rights according to lease, a new agreement is to be issued/registered valid for 30 years

you can say many things in a lease without them having any legal basis or being at all enforceable

[LivinLOS]

in the lease agreement as registered in land title, it can be stated whenever lessee want to transfer rights according to lease, a new agreement is to be issued/registered valid for 30 years

Sure it can be in the lease agreement.. But a lease agreement can say anything, doesnt means its truly enforceable..

For all these things you need cooperation of the lease holder.. If they decide to just vanish on you, cant make it happen without them.

[taninthai]

am i the only one who thinks this is a crazy way to buy a house here , in the uk palces with short leases are considerably cheaper reaszons being you have a good chance of losing the property or having to pay a hefty sum for new lease.........think id rather take the chance and put in misses name or with usufat or whatever you call it.....

maybe if i was 70 i might try this way as id probably be dead by the time lease expires and you cant take it with you when your dead

Edited September 3, 2010 by taninthai

[ilyelol]

getting mortgages of 400-600$ a month for 1million year is kind of a big plus for buying here... someone with a moderate income can own like 4 houses quite easily.

[katabeachbum]

in the lease agreement as registered in land title, it can be stated whenever lessee want to transfer rights according to lease, a new agreement is to be issued/registered valid for 30 years

Sure it can be in the lease agreement.. But a lease agreement can say anything, doesnt means its truly enforceable..

For all these things you need cooperation of the lease holder.. If they decide to just vanish on you, cant make it happen without them.

civil court less than 6 months if no co op. simple case, and they will probably not even show up cause guaranteed outcome

[katabeachbum]

getting mortgages of 400-600$ a month for 1million year is kind of a big plus for buying here... someone with a moderate income can own like 4 houses quite easily.

max registered lease or morgage is 30 year in los, so how do you do 1 million year

[ilyelol]

getting mortgages of 400-600$ a month for 1million year is kind of a big plus for buying here... someone with a moderate income can own like 4 houses quite easily.

max registered lease or morgage is 30 year in los, so how do you do 1 million year

30 year old is half a life..

most farangs don't even have 30 years left on their lives when they move to thailand..

1million or 30, same same.

[LivinginKata]

Sure it can be in the lease agreement.. But a lease agreement can say anything, doesnt means its truly enforceable..

For all these things you need cooperation of the lease holder.. If they decide to just vanish on you, cant make it happen without them.

civil court less than 6 months if no co op. simple case, and they will probably not even show up cause guaranteed outcome

Oh really .... don't talk to me about 30 year leases and civil courts in Thailand. I have been fighting a case in civil court on behalf of a deceased friend regarding the transfer of his 30 year to his daughter, as clearly defined in his lawyer written lease contract. This case has been in civil court for 6 years now, and is going nowhere. In this case the leaseholder is the guy's ex-girlfriend and she will not cooperate at all. She just keeps appealing the court decisions, always in the daughter's favour. This case is clear cut, but the case just keeps rolling along with appeals. Ok, my rant is over.

[Valentine]

am i the only one who thinks this is a crazy way to buy a house here , in the uk palces with short leases are considerably cheaper reaszons being you have a good chance of losing the property or having to pay a hefty sum for new lease.........think id rather take the chance and put in misses name or with usufat or whatever you call it.....

maybe if i was 70 i might try this way as id probably be dead by the time lease expires and you cant take it with you when your dead

You are not as I also feel that leases are not the way to go. No matter how you word it, have it registered & think all the angles are covered there are no precedents for judges to rule on & besides I don't think legal precedents mean anything here. Have it in a Thai name, ensure you have superfecies i.e. registered ownership of the building but this has to be done absolutely correctly. At least then the property is freehold & therefore a more attractive proposition for a buyer.

[Abrak]

Oh really .... don't talk to me about 30 year leases and civil courts in Thailand. I have been fighting a case in civil court on behalf of a deceased friend regarding the transfer of his 30 year to his daughter, as clearly defined in his lawyer written lease contract. This case has been in civil court for 6 years now, and is going nowhere. In this case the leaseholder is the guy's ex-girlfriend and she will not cooperate at all. She just keeps appealing the court decisions, always in the daughter's favour. This case is clear cut, but the case just keeps rolling along with appeals. Ok, my rant is over.

Do you mean his ex-GF is the 'freeholder'?

[thaiwanderer]

in the lease agreement as registered in land title, it can be stated whenever lessee want to transfer rights according to lease, a new agreement is to be issued/registered valid for 30 years

Sure it can be in the lease agreement.. But a lease agreement can say anything, doesnt means its truly enforceable..

For all these things you need cooperation of the lease holder.. If they decide to just vanish on you, cant make it happen without them.

civil court less than 6 months if no co op. simple case, and they will probably not even show up cause guaranteed outcome

how many times have you successfully enforced such a clause at court?

[LivinginKata]

Oh really .... don't talk to me about 30 year leases and civil courts in Thailand. I have been fighting a case in civil court on behalf of a deceased friend regarding the transfer of his 30 year to his daughter, as clearly defined in his lawyer written lease contract. This case has been in civil court for 6 years now, and is going nowhere. In this case the leaseholder is the guy's ex-girlfriend and she will not cooperate at all. She just keeps appealing the court decisions, always in the daughter's favour. This case is clear cut, but the case just keeps rolling along with appeals. Ok, my rant is over.

Do you mean his ex-GF is the 'freeholder'?

Yes, his ex is the land owner. And the guy paid for his GF (at that time) to purchase the land, in return for the 30 year lease in his name. It's quite a 'normal' deal, but my point is that these 'deals' can go wildly wrong in the fullness of time, and don't expect a quick solution in Thailand's civil courts. But I am getting way off the original topic.

[Abrak]

Yes, his ex is the land owner. And the guy paid for his GF (at that time) to purchase the land, in return for the 30 year lease in his name. It's quite a 'normal' deal, but my point is that these 'deals' can go wildly wrong in the fullness of time, and don't expect a quick solution in Thailand's civil courts. But I am getting way off the original topic.

Sadly I think it is rather on topic on the basis that even if the daughter's right to inheritance is registered at the Land Department it is very difficult to enforce when the underlying Law seems to cancel the lease on death. So the freeholder probably can appeal up until the Supreme Court when she will almost certainly lose (based on previous judgments) if you eventually get that far before collapsing from exhaustion.

[barka]

The safest way to do this if you dont want to lose out if you die is.....get a relative eg son or daughter to sign the lease with you when you prchase the property and register it as joint buyers..this has to be done asap ..a good idea would be to do it with a reputable lawer.. the lease would still be owned by the surviving partner..maybe the thai partner eg girlfreind probably would not be to happy

[logbags]

Sure it can be in the lease agreement.. But a lease agreement can say anything, doesnt means its truly enforceable..

For all these things you need cooperation of the lease holder.. If they decide to just vanish on you, cant make it happen without them.

civil court less than 6 months if no co op. simple case, and they will probably not even show up cause guaranteed outcome

Oh really .... don't talk to me about 30 year leases and civil courts in Thailand. I have been fighting a case in civil court on behalf of a deceased friend regarding the transfer of his 30 year to his daughter, as clearly defined in his lawyer written lease contract. This case has been in civil court for 6 years now, and is going nowhere. In this case the leaseholder is the guy's ex-girlfriend and she will not cooperate at all. She just keeps appealing the court decisions, always in the daughter's favour. This case is clear cut, but the case just keeps rolling along with appeals. Ok, my rant is over.

We had the same problem and took over 10 years fighting this Chinese tnuc from Phuket town. He appealed to the last court, tried to bribe everybody from the judge downwards etc. It took him, his brother and son being killed before his daughter and wife relented and gave up simply due to fear. The civil system is grindingly slow and unless you have a good lawyer and lots of patience you'll end up very frustrated. You also have to put a bond up for the judge to hold in some cases to cover costs if you lose.

My case had 13 of us fighting with a couple of really big names in Patong involved so this Chinese guy had a big set of balls thinking he was just going to cheat these people and live to tell the tale. He'd done it so many times before he was on everyone's shit list. Our lawyer just wanted to fight him for the sake of making him miserable.

For the farang, there are so many cracks in the Thai legal system and people who can be paid off. Lawyers can lose papers or evidence, officials can forge papers, lose documents and prosecutors can withold or not present certain evidence. Police are the worse, they will produce false confessions, lie, intimidate witnesses and fail to turn up so the case constantly gets delayed. As a farang you might as well not even turn up as it will make people even less interested in helping.

Lots of the leases in Patong must have been successfully extended, Tropica Bungalows and many others had 15 year land leases originally back in the 80's so they must have got long extensions as Tropica has invested millions in a upgrading their facilities. Most Chinese will leave things as they are as long as they are making enough money, they like to keep a low profile. Most Thai people I know who lease land have absolutely no intention of ever giving up their land, it is purely long term renting.

The people in the South generally don't like northerners or women from Isarn for obvious reasons, so don't expect any respect from a local Phuket person or official if your married to a girl from Isarn. Unfortunate but true. This often comes about because they hear the girl shit talking about her farang husband in local Isarn dialect and the poor sap is just standing there smiling like an idiot. I've seen this so many times myself.

My niece from Surat Thani has run beauty shops on Samui, Phuket and also in Australia. Some of the stories she tells me about the plots and scams of some Thai girls beggars belief.

[NamKangMan]

It will be very, very interesting in a few years time when these "30 year land leases" to farang are up. No one knows what will happen. An "option" for another 30 years, to my knowledge, has not been tested in a Thai Court. My understanding is "the clause on the contract" is not recognised at Thai Law and, therefore, can be "voided."

In any case, what's stopping the Thai Landlord from saying, "The lease on the land is now going to be 2 million baht for the next 30 years." In order to sell your property, you would have to discount that amount off the sale price and the Thai Landord cleans up. It will be very hard to sell when that time comes that sees a lot of these 30 years land leases coming up, due to the boom on Phuket some years ago.

Of course, the landlord may just put a crazy price on the land lease just because he wants to retain the house, that sits on his land.

I think hiring bulldozers might be a good business in the future, on Phuket. :) :)

Actually the Phuket Land Office allows you to register one 30 year option to renew. But an 'option to renew' can only be an option if it is fixed at a certain price. An option to renew at the owners discretion is not an option.

The underlying principal of a 30 + 30 lease may not have been fully tested under Thai Law but as it is given by the Crown Property on various properties one can probably assume it is legal. The real problem comes if the the option is granted by a 'person' who no longer is alive in which case his inheritors might claim no responsibility to honor the option which dies with him.

I do however find it difficult to imagine that a contract of 30 + 30 given by the Crown will not be respected under the legal system although the legal system might deem the Crown to be fallible.

The lessor "dying" is an occurence that may cause an "issue." Another, highly probably scenario, is the lessor selling THEIR LAND to their wife, brother, sister, son, daughter etc for a nominal fee. This would, technically, create a new owner of the land, whilst still in the same family of the original owner. I'm sure you know what I'm getting at. Anyway, at Thai Law, is this so-called new owner bound by the old owner, and lessor's, contract? I'm suggesting, probably not. This is where I can really see huge problems for farang in a few years time.

Another thing to consider is the land that the 30 year leased house sits on, 30 years later, is now prime location. The Thai land owner would be thinking of developing it - condos etc, or, selling it, for huge money, to a developer who has the funds to do it. Either way, the farang lease holder, as his 30 years nears, is going to have a lot of problems selling. In fact, it may be impossible to sell because the Thai land owner will not offer a new land lease.

[NamKangMan]

It will be very, very interesting in a few years time when these "30 year land leases" to farang are up. No one knows what will happen. An "option" for another 30 years, to my knowledge, has not been tested in a Thai Court. My understanding is "the clause on the contract" is not recognised at Thai Law and, therefore, can be "voided."

In any case, what's stopping the Thai Landlord from saying, "The lease on the land is now going to be 2 million baht for the next 30 years." In order to sell your property, you would have to discount that amount off the sale price and the Thai Landord cleans up. It will be very hard to sell when that time comes that sees a lot of these 30 years land leases coming up, due to the boom on Phuket some years ago.

Of course, the landlord may just put a crazy price on the land lease just because he wants to retain the house, that sits on his land.

I think hiring bulldozers might be a good business in the future, on Phuket. :) :)

Actually the Phuket Land Office allows you to register one 30 year option to renew. But an 'option to renew' can only be an option if it is fixed at a certain price. An option to renew at the owners discretion is not an option.

The underlying principal of a 30 + 30 lease may not have been fully tested under Thai Law but as it is given by the Crown Property on various properties one can probably assume it is legal. The real problem comes if the the option is granted by a 'person' who no longer is alive in which case his inheritors might claim no responsibility to honor the option which dies with him.

I do however find it difficult to imagine that a contract of 30 + 30 given by the Crown will not be respected under the legal system although the legal system might deem the Crown to be fallible.

the 'registration' of the lease document that contains such an option does not amount to a registration of the 2nd 30 year period

that requires the co-operation of the freeholder in 30 years time and if no longer the original lessor is not enforceable and even if it is the original lessor you woulkd need to take legal action to force a renewal (if they aren't co-operating) and that opens its own problems which aren't necessarily defeated by pre-payment 30 years in the past

Without wishing to cause too much alarm, we are talking about a lot of money and Thai's who own land. If you take legal action over your house, sitting on the Thai owners land, you might not make it to Court, if you get what I am saying. We have seen this before, Thai on Thai. I'm sure it would be the same for Thai on Farang.

[NamKangMan]

It will be very, very interesting in a few years time when these "30 year land leases" to farang are up. No one knows what will happen. An "option" for another 30 years, to my knowledge, has not been tested in a Thai Court. My understanding is "the clause on the contract" is not recognised at Thai Law and, therefore, can be "voided."

In any case, what's stopping the Thai Landlord from saying, "The lease on the land is now going to be 2 million baht for the next 30 years." In order to sell your property, you would have to discount that amount off the sale price and the Thai Landord cleans up. It will be very hard to sell when that time comes that sees a lot of these 30 years land leases coming up, due to the boom on Phuket some years ago.

Of course, the landlord may just put a crazy price on the land lease just because he wants to retain the house, that sits on his land.

I think hiring bulldozers might be a good business in the future, on Phuket. :) :)

Well what stops them is a well drawn up lease will of course specify the extension price..

But the fact remains that +30+30 is untested and looks weak.. From what lawyers have explained all a seller has to do is demonstrate a material change to their circumstances (my kid wants to go to college) and any 'future obligation' such as this is unenforceable.

Or even simply pass the land to his kids who didnt sign the lease and you now have a new land owner, go sue the old one in civil court and see how far that gets you.

Even more simply think it will be Farangs v Thais in Thai court over the hot issue of 'Thailand is for Thais' I wouldnt expect that to end well (for the farang).

Totally agree. See my previous post.

[NamKangMan]

I do however find it difficult to imagine that a contract of 30 + 30 given by the Crown will not be respected under the legal system although the legal system might deem the Crown to be fallible.

Its fair to assume many leases will be honored, many will ba backed up by honorable people who understood they were effectively 'selling' it and will continue to agree.. But its the ones that dont that will obviously be the issue.

Dealing with the CP group isnt the same as Phuket Somchai looking at a few rai of hillside land, that he thinks he owns, that his dear departed father leased for a while, and now has more assets sat on it than he could ever work for and achieve.

And how long do you think it will take for "the word to get around" amonst ALL Thai land owners of the loop holes available to them, to either get a cheap house off a farang who built it for you, or make a lot of money on a "re-lease." I don't think many will honor "the spirit of the lease."

It's going to be a real estate blood bath.

Edited September 3, 2010 by NamKangMan

[NamKangMan]

Its fair to assume many leases will be honored, many will ba backed up by honorable people who understood they were effectively 'selling' it and will continue to agree.. But its the ones that dont that will obviously be the issue.

Dealing with the CP group isnt the same as Phuket Somchai looking at a few rai of hillside land, that he thinks he owns, that his dear departed father leased for a while, and now has more assets sat on it than he could ever work for and achieve.

True.... you cannot ever really get away from the fact that the longest lease that can be legally registered under the Thai Law is 30 years.

Yes and I would guess Phuket Somchai might also face a small tax problem. Like the 30+30+30 that was effectively sold at Bt6m (i.e. Bt2m + Bt2m + Bt2m) with full payment upfront warrants a tax bill (probably up to 37% on the second Bt2m) when the +30 is registered.

I dont know what people actually do but I certainly would be proactive with Phuket Somchai. With say 10 years left on my lease, I would negotiate a cancellation and re-registration of 30 years. Pay his tax bill and a small sweetner.

Pay, pay pay. Tax, sweetners, dinners, gifts. Ha ha - he know's he's got you by "the eggs" and he will squeeze. This is my point, exactly, you have no legal rights as your 30 year lease nears completion. You only have "hope."

Edited September 3, 2010 by NamKangMan

[NamKangMan]

It may have been asked before but what happens if you have a 30 year lease and decide to sell after, say, 10 years? Are you selling a 20 year lease which is not an attractive proposition to a prospective buyer and impossible to sell to a Thai? Does that mean that any property purchased on such a leasehold basis is effectively a depreciating asset?

I really don't know the answer to this one but I am sure there is someone out there who does.

Depreciating asset with BIG doubts on a lease renewal, for anyone. Welcome to the Thai Property Market for farang.

[LivinLOS]

in the lease agreement as registered in land title, it can be stated whenever lessee want to transfer rights according to lease, a new agreement is to be issued/registered valid for 30 years

Sure it can be in the lease agreement.. But a lease agreement can say anything, doesnt means its truly enforceable..

For all these things you need cooperation of the lease holder.. If they decide to just vanish on you, cant make it happen without them.

civil court less than 6 months if no co op. simple case, and they will probably not even show up cause guaranteed outcome

Well I have read 10's of stories by upset farangs who have found it to be far less open and shut than that !!

Never done it myself so try to keep an open mind.

[LivinLOS]

The safest way to do this if you dont want to lose out if you die is.....get a relative eg son or daughter to sign the lease with you when you prchase the property and register it as joint buyers..this has to be done asap ..a good idea would be to do it with a reputable lawer.. the lease would still be owned by the surviving partner..maybe the thai partner eg girlfreind probably would not be to happy

Interesting..

Does this mitigate the 'leasing from your wife' problem eg the land is hers and the lease becomes 50% hers.. If you have dual leasees she would have the ownership of the land but only (possibly) 25% of the lease ??

[evanson]

Abrak

As an example I built a villa here - designed by the most famous architect :lol:in Phuket. I bought the land 1 rai right on the west coast ocean in October 1997. I built the villa over the next 18 months. Pretty good timing. I sold 10 years later at 80% profit but I had spent a lot on it imbetween. And my timing of purchase and build were very good considering the crisis. It took 2 years to sell and it was a beautiful 600 sqm villa 20m from the sea.

People have been misled by Bt150k/sqm condos that have been sold but are being resold at Bt75k/sqm 5 years later.

And please understand your house is worth exactly what you sell it for - no more, no less. You talk about 'fire sale' wasters but are you really a seller when it has taken you 3 years to sell? I simply do not believe prices have risen much over the last 7 years.

You have pulled your house off the market. So maybe you were a bullshit seller No, that I am not.. Dont complain about the buyers (sheeple with no taste) and realize your house is worth exactly how much you decide to sell it at. (Here we go, again,) All my neighbours in my old villa told me I sold it too cheap - which is fine as long as they understand why they havent sold their place.

I have a property I've had on the market for the past three years. Architect built (not something scratched on the back of a beer mat by some pissed up wanabe architect farang,), nor something pulled from one of those books Thai builders are apt to throw up. No pun intended.

During the worst of the 'Western' economic crisis, I'd been advised to reduce the price accordingly. Three years on and a 50% reduction, I'm still getting idiot time wasters looking for 'fire sales' (I'm not alone in this).

Given that property/land sale prices on the island are not only holding but rising, I think 'why in the hel_l am I putting up with this'. To keep the 'real' estate agents in gainful, albeit at a reduced commission, employment? And have pulled my property off the 'market', which, as far as I can see, is only for arrogant dickheads thinking they can get a 'deal' over the red shirt/Surayud fiasco, or those with more money than sense flying their private planes onto what was once a tropical paradise, but is fastly and furiously turning into Pattaya II.

[unquote]

Okay, if you're into the 'my architect more famous than your architect' game, I am here to disavow you of this view. My architect, brilliantly talented as he is, works out of Hong Kong. Now. Phuket having been done to death by the distinctly crap/homogeneous 'design' here.(Of which I am only assuming your build was of that genre, hence you're perceived 'low selling price).

The ONLY problem with my sale of my house was it's location, some witless unimaginative farang enclave, albeit inland but with sea view bit of a way off, but certainly more than 60m.

Who/was your 'most famous architect' on little Phuket, by the way? C'mon, give us a laugh.

By the way, you're not an agent are you?

Edited September 4, 2010 by evanson

[Abrak]

Abrak

As an example I built a villa here - designed by the most famous architect :lol:in Phuket. I bought the land 1 rai right on the west coast ocean in October 1997. I built the villa over the next 18 months. Pretty good timing. I sold 10 years later at 80% profit but I had spent a lot on it imbetween. And my timing of purchase and build were very good considering the crisis. It took 2 years to sell and it was a beautiful 600 sqm villa 20m from the sea.

People have been misled by Bt150k/sqm condos that have been sold but are being resold at Bt75k/sqm 5 years later.

And please understand your house is worth exactly what you sell it for - no more, no less. You talk about 'fire sale' wasters but are you really a seller when it has taken you 3 years to sell? I simply do not believe prices have risen much over the last 7 years.

You have pulled your house off the market. So maybe you were a bullshit seller No, that I am not.. Dont complain about the buyers (sheeple with no taste) and realize your house is worth exactly how much you decide to sell it at. (Here we go, again,) All my neighbours in my old villa told me I sold it too cheap - which is fine as long as they understand why they havent sold their place.

I have a property I've had on the market for the past three years. Architect built (not something scratched on the back of a beer mat by some pissed up wanabe architect farang,), nor something pulled from one of those books Thai builders are apt to throw up. No pun intended.

During the worst of the 'Western' economic crisis, I'd been advised to reduce the price accordingly. Three years on and a 50% reduction, I'm still getting idiot time wasters looking for 'fire sales' (I'm not alone in this).

Given that property/land sale prices on the island are not only holding but rising, I think 'why in the hel_l am I putting up with this'. To keep the 'real' estate agents in gainful, albeit at a reduced commission, employment? And have pulled my property off the 'market', which, as far as I can see, is only for arrogant dickheads thinking they can get a 'deal' over the red shirt/Surayud fiasco, or those with more money than sense flying their private planes onto what was once a tropical paradise, but is fastly and furiously turning into Pattaya II.

[unquote]

Okay, if you're into the 'my architect more famous than your architect' game, I am here to disavow you of this view. My architect, brilliantly talented as he is, works out of Hong Kong. Now. Phuket having been done to death by the distinctly crap/homogeneous 'design' here.(Of which I am only assuming your build was of that genre, hence you're perceived 'low selling price).

The ONLY problem with my sale of my house was it's location, some witless unimaginative farang enclave, albeit inland but with sea view bit of a way off, but certainly more than 60m.

Who/was your 'most famous architect' on little Phuket, by the way? C'mon, give us a laugh.

By the way, you're not an agent are you?

Sorry if you feel misled by the architect thing. I was merely refering to the most famous Thai architect who is 'based' in Phuket. I was not refering to a Starck or Gatty that have been involved in projects here and are internationally famous.

But it really is beside the point about the architect or the location and I never said that I had a 'perceived' low selling price - I said that other people perceived it as low while I merely pointed out that I sold for what I could get and others might be the unrealistic ones who are trying to sell and havent been able to.

So wake up and get a grip and simply reread your post.

You state 4 salient points.

1) Your villa has been on the market for 3 years and hasnt SOLD

2) You have reduced the price by 50% and it still hasnt SOLD

3) Prices are not only holding but going UP

4) Buyers are 'sheeple' (with no taste) 'time wasters' (or apparently more money than sense that dont realize it is no longer paradise but Pattaya 2 but still dont want to buy your place.)

So at what point are you going to admit you have been delusional. Clearly trying to sell at twice the current price might be. Clearly if you cant sell at half what you first offered and prices 3 years later have risen - they maybe havent or you are even more delusional about the value of your villa. Now the fact you havent sold you can blame on absolutely everyone else - sheeple, time wasters, peasants etc - the Thai economy, global economy, riots etc.

As you rightly point out you 'are not alone' in Phuket in not being able to get what you think your villa is worth but that might be because you are not alone in believing your villa is worth more than anyone will pay for it. Because how much someone is prepared to pay for it is EXACTLY how much it will be worth when you eventually agree a price.

[LivinLOS]

Sorry if you feel misled by the architect thing. I was merely refering to the most famous Thai architect who is 'based' in Phuket. I was not refering to a Starck or Gatty that have been involved in projects here and are internationally famous.

Tucker Bishop ?? One of the few I could think of worth noting.

You state 4 salient points.

1) Your villa has been on the market for 3 years and hasnt SOLD

2) You have reduced the price by 50% and it still hasnt SOLD

3) Prices are not only holding but going UP

4) Buyers are 'sheeple' (with no taste) 'time wasters' (or apparently more money than sense that dont realize it is no longer paradise but Pattaya 2 but still dont want to buy your place.)

That sums it up, combined with the 'removed from the market' just says unrealistic price assumptions. If its more than 50% above build cost (incl land) then why would anyone pay the premium ??

Theres a glut of stuff in almost all sectors, some more some less, but people seem to look at the listing prices when looking for comparable sales not the actual selling prices.

[LivinLOS]

http://www.news-journalonline.com/news/local/east-volusia/2010/09/02/oceanfront-lot-recently-sold-at-205-million-loss.html

Bought for 23m.. Sold for 2.5m..

What was it worth ??