Scottish Girl, 15, Dies In Crash

[Sassie]

As a mountain biker/downhill rider, no helmet = POD...Potential Organ Donor. Not that it will always save you (just like seatbelts don't sometimes) but you still wear it.

Regardless, my heart goes out to this young girl's family.

sassie

[Chainat1]

Thats really sad. My condolences to the girls parents.

I know Phuket very well and I know alot of accident victims involved in motorbike accidents. sad

When I was there the drivers had to wear helmets but the passengers didn't. ?!?!?!?

[AmeriThai]

Just the other day I was just walking out of a grocery store and watched a biker go whizzing right by me into a ditch and hitting the tree.  Didn't want to know what happenned to that driver, but I guess he either got killed or ended up with a group of broken bones for sure.

Has any of you ever seen a person go splat right smack into a tree around 80 kilometers or more an hour??  The sound is like a thud of bones hitting that tree.  A definite weird sound for sure.

Wow! It's remarkable that you could hear the sound of bones breaking over the sounds of the motorcycle's roaring engine and crashing at 80 km/hour.

[LivinLOS]

I havent taken time to read this thread in full because I am too incesnsed after reading greenwanderers comments back on page 1..

I am very close with this family..

The family lost the mother a few years back and are an extreemely close tight bond.. I had only just made the pleasure of Johns company and his children were polite, well behaved, honest, sweet kids.. The eldest (Alexandria) was just blossomming from a girl to a young lady and they were having the holiday of a lifetime here..

This was not a family with headblinkers for morals and John (the father) and his young near adult children had trust and mutual respect that most families dream of.. We had hooked young Alex up with some non working girls who looked after her like mother hen.. they took her to the salon, they took her out in town (Patong) and she was enjoying this holiday as a young person becoming independant..

At approx 1am the friend / babysitter was taking her back home (from being around us and family) and they stopped for some soup.. The babysitter (after a full night out) was 0 alcohol (blood / breath and actual drinks) and was basically mown down by someone who was 7 times the UK limit (I think Thai limit is 50 ?? that would make it 5 times the Thai limit)..

Since then I and others have been working with this family to deal with the embassy / hospital / shit that has been thrown at them.. The father has been like a rock to his 2 remaining sons.. I only hope that in times of stress and trouble I could be half as strong as what he has had to be and done..

this was innocent life lost..

I dont want to go into details but it is becomeing obvious that the Thai person has some 'influence' helping them and the remains of the Stark family has already left.. I have no idea if any semblance of justice will be done..

[LivinLOS]

Sad story.

Another reminder not to let your 15 year old out at 2 am.  In this case some poor judgement on the part of the parents with disasterous consequences.

Letting the drunk driver out is a disgrace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for your input.. She had just been 'sent home' at about 1 am and stopped for soup on the way..

Surprising as it may seem 2 is not actually that late for a 15 y/o thats on holiday..

[thaibebop]

What a tragedy. Young kids + alcohol = disaster.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not only young Kids.

Alcohol is a very dangerous drug, if you manufactured a pill that had the same potency as Alcohol, it would be a Class 1 drug, and you would get the death sentence for making it.

These accidents involving Alcohol are a daily occurence in nearly every country in the world.

70% of road deaths in USA have Alcohol in the equation somewhere, considering there are 42,000 road Deaths in USA per year, that makes Alcohol a huge problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To blame a product (alcohol) for a death is a questionable argument. If, it were the fault, by extension, one would have to blame other products as well. For instance, it has been suggested that cell phones impair a driver equivalent to drunken driving in the US.

Motor vehicles have been known to be involved in 100% of traffic accidents. Tires are also known to be present .

Every person I know that has owned and driven a motorcycle, has injured him or herself.

I have seen so many scooter scars in Thailand, that I think it is a rite of passage.

Cheese is full of fat and calories, leads to obesity and the associated complications, and finally death. Sorry, off topic.

My tirade leads to the conclusion. The blame should be placed on personal responsibility. Bad choices should be made accountable.

otis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have a very good point, however, if people are never taught that to make such poor choices is wrong, or they know that they won't be punshied for it, whose to blame then, the person or the society.

In the US many states are now passing laws over cell phones and driving. This will hopfully teach more Americans to be more responsible when using their cell phones.

So, if Thailand isn't putting pressure on it's people too think about such things, why should they? If Thailand isn't placing more value on human life than why should they feel guilty overruning down someone? They were drunk after all.

[greenwanderer108]

Sorry to offend you LivininLos, believe me, you are not the only one who has had been up, close, and personal with death and her horrid trail left behind. Anyhow, my smart arse comment wasn't to offend anyone...I'm still baffled of what actually needs to be investigated, so I was suggesting that perhaps there were facts left out of this initial report. Aparently not. So I guess what they really meant was one month of negotiations, not investigations.

And there this kids family are there to bail him out and make jokes on such an occasion. Had it been a 15 year old Thai girl who died and the responsible was a 20 year old drunk farang, would it had been any different? not really sure, but it is unfortunate.

I don't see what good it is to bail him out. Thais aren't very good at raising children with values. It's a "I'll send you through school and give you everything you want/need, you don't ever have to earn or learn and if you ever get locked up for man (girl) slaughter, we'll bail you out' attitude.

I'd like to have been at that debate/hearing in Thai when they were justifying cause she wasn't wearing a helmet. I would of let them have it (in Thai ofcourse) and certainly made them feel their karma for bailing out that boy.

I've lost a close friend to alcohal related motocycle accident in LOS, but his carelessness cost him his own life, not an innocent youth as in this situation. It's tragic

[sonnyJ]

A tragic accident.

It's a good point why they were driving around 2 am.? Realising the risks..

These kinda accidents happen in Thailand a lot.

-alcohol

-no proper driving learning/education

-no helmets

This is my over all oppinion, not only in this case, but on every day cases.

I hope there will be some real consequenses for this driver. For the nanny too.

!!!!

But the problem is not solved sending this guy to prison. Like I pointed out before Thais should get some driving education going on!! Seriously!!!

[jrincon17]

Yeah ... you missed something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yOURE THE ONE WHO MISSED SOMETHING

[dezeure]

My condolences to the parents of the young girl.

[mnoorsapl]

a tragic incident, my condolences to the family of the young girl.

[thymode91]

Let see what will happen after investigation...My condolences to the parents of the girl.

[turbog]

DO NOT DRINK AND DRIVES

IT WRECKS LIVES

[Chiuey]

I bet she was not wearing a helmet??

200K is a lot of bail for a Thai.

He was lucky to find someone to post it!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Given his last name and that he was only 20 I might guess that 200k is not all that much money in Pattaya. Nothing will happen to this lad.

But what kind of "babysitter" goes out at 2:00AM with a 15 year old girl riding on the back of a motocycle in Thailand when everyone knows that is the time when the drunks are leaving the bars intoxicated?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's the summer, it's not like the girl has school the next day....

Granted you have a good point, but there's nothing common about common sense...

[h5kaf]

It has all been said. The most important point, now that this poor girl is dead, is to realise that family of well connected Thais will go out drinking and driving and doing much as they please - after all the consequences can always be moderated. TiT and after all it is those nasty farangs who allow Thais to drink that are really to blame.

My deepest sympathy to the family. What a tragic waste.

[OlRedEyes]

deleted by ORE.

Edited July 15, 2005 by OlRedEyes

[slim]

Exactly... Sounds like an open and shut case... &lt;deleted&gt; else are they going to investigate? Only in LOS is right... and do you think they'll be able to find this guy in a month after their "investigation" is over... I seriously doubt it!

So whats he going to do then?

Go on the run for the rest of his life?

Unless he flees the country he'd be picked up in minutes - you've got to show an ID card to sneeze in this country.

................................mind you if he's got a rich daddy.........

[amal2029]

DO NOT DRINK AND DRIVES

  IT WRECKS LIVES

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't drink and drive, take a joint and fly..

[bdenner]

Looking at the number of people reading this at the moment TV should rename itself Thai Vultures.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just dragged my head out of the sand and this is the first thing I saw. He's right, I'll just stick it back in again ---- WAN#ER

After that my condolances to the father and remainder of the family.

[Jimmy in Bangkok]

Sad story.

Another reminder not to let your 15 year old out at 2 am.  In this case some poor judgement on the part of the parents with disasterous consequences.

Letting the drunk driver out is a disgrace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for your input.. She had just been 'sent home' at about 1 am and stopped for soup on the way..

Surprising as it may seem 2 is not actually that late for a 15 y/o thats on holiday..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm deeply sorry for the girls father and brothers and it's another truely disgusting waste of human life and I certainly hope the other motorcycle rider gets to live out a large remainder of his life in prison.

Although I do dissagree with your statement that 2am is not actually late for a 15 y/o on holiday to be out on the town. I certainly won't be letting my daughter out when she is 15y/o until 2am anywhere not just in Thailand as I think this is completely unnecessary and an unacceptable time for someone of that age to be out and about especially given some of the types of people that are also out at that time. As parents we have to accept some responsibility for our children's whereabouts and goings on.

Also, as distressing as some of the comments are to you LivinLOS, this is a forum and as such everyone is entitled to their point of view whether we agree with it or not or even if we like it or not hence the name forum. No offence is meant with that statement LivinLOS and I'm sorry for your pain but I'm just trying to put it (the posts) into perspective.

My heartfelt condolences to the surving members of the family.

[thaibebop]

DO NOT DRINK AND DRIVES

   IT WRECKS LIVES

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't drink and drive, take a joint and fly..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, you like to smoke your stupidity over drinking it. Very well, keep the blunt in your hands and your hands away from the keyboard and no one will get hurt.

Sad story.

Another reminder not to let your 15 year old out at 2 am.  In this case some poor judgement on the part of the parents with disasterous consequences.

Letting the drunk driver out is a disgrace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for your input.. She had just been 'sent home' at about 1 am and stopped for soup on the way..

Surprising as it may seem 2 is not actually that late for a 15 y/o thats on holiday..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm deeply sorry for the girls father and brothers and it's another truely disgusting waste of human life and I certainly hope the other motorcycle rider gets to live out a large remainder of his life in prison.

Although I do dissagree with your statement that 2am is not actually late for a 15 y/o on holiday to be out on the town. I certainly won't be letting my daughter out when she is 15y/o until 2am anywhere not just in Thailand as I think this is completely unnecessary and an unacceptable time for someone of that age to be out and about especially given some of the types of people that are also out at that time. As parents we have to accept some responsibility for our children's whereabouts and goings on.

Also, as distressing as some of the comments are to you LivinLOS, this is a forum and as such everyone is entitled to their point of view whether we agree with it or not or even if we like it or not hence the name forum. No offence is meant with that statement LivinLOS and I'm sorry for your pain but I'm just trying to put it (the posts) into perspective.

My heartfelt condolences to the surving members of the family.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well that's LivinLOS opinions that he/she is posting.

I think 15yr old kids should be at home @ 2am, but that's beside the point. It dosen't matter what time of day this happend. Just because it happened at 2am dosen't put any fault on the young lady. Why is everyone hung up on the time. The crime is the drunk ahole driving around, that and how the Thais don't seem to give a %^%$#.

I know good Thai people, how come they never appear in the stories on Thaivisa?

I hope her family finds the hope they need to carry on.

[Jimmy in Bangkok]

DO NOT DRINK AND DRIVES

  IT WRECKS LIVES

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't drink and drive, take a joint and fly..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, you like to smoke your stupidity over drinking it. Very well, keep the blunt in your hands and your hands away from the keyboard and no one will get hurt.

Sad story.

Another reminder not to let your 15 year old out at 2 am.  In this case some poor judgement on the part of the parents with disasterous consequences.

Letting the drunk driver out is a disgrace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for your input.. She had just been 'sent home' at about 1 am and stopped for soup on the way..

Surprising as it may seem 2 is not actually that late for a 15 y/o thats on holiday..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm deeply sorry for the girls father and brothers and it's another truely disgusting waste of human life and I certainly hope the other motorcycle rider gets to live out a large remainder of his life in prison.

Although I do dissagree with your statement that 2am is not actually late for a 15 y/o on holiday to be out on the town. I certainly won't be letting my daughter out when she is 15y/o until 2am anywhere not just in Thailand as I think this is completely unnecessary and an unacceptable time for someone of that age to be out and about especially given some of the types of people that are also out at that time. As parents we have to accept some responsibility for our children's whereabouts and goings on.

Also, as distressing as some of the comments are to you LivinLOS, this is a forum and as such everyone is entitled to their point of view whether we agree with it or not or even if we like it or not hence the name forum. No offence is meant with that statement LivinLOS and I'm sorry for your pain but I'm just trying to put it (the posts) into perspective.

My heartfelt condolences to the surving members of the family.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well that's LivinLOS opinions that he/she is posting.

I think 15yr old kids should be at home @ 2am, but that's beside the point. It dosen't matter what time of day this happend. Just because it happened at 2am dosen't put any fault on the young lady. Why is everyone hung up on the time. The crime is the drunk ahole driving around, that and how the Thais don't seem to give a %^%$#.

I know good Thai people, how come they never appear in the stories on Thaivisa?

I hope her family finds the hope they need to carry on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No-one is actually putting any fault on the lady concerned and I don't believe everyone is hung up on the time as you put it. My post was in regard to 15y/o people in general and them being out at 2am in reply to LivinLOS's statement that it's not too late for someone of that age to be out.

Nowhere did I suggest she was to blame in any way for what happened and why don't good people anywhere appear on any news programs? because most people are not interested in the good only the bad. When was the last time you read/saw anything about good people on a news program, in a paper etc? and if it bothers you so much why don't you start a post yourself on the good people you know rather than complaining about it?

Edited July 15, 2005 by Jimmy in Bangkok

[womble]

Sad story.

Another reminder not to let your 15 year old out at 2 am.  In this case some poor judgement on the part of the parents with disasterous consequences.

Letting the drunk driver out is a disgrace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for your input.. She had just been 'sent home' at about 1 am and stopped for soup on the way..

Surprising as it may seem 2 is not actually that late for a 15 y/o thats on holiday..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm deeply sorry for the girls father and brothers and it's another truely disgusting waste of human life and I certainly hope the other motorcycle rider gets to live out a large remainder of his life in prison.

Although I do dissagree with your statement that 2am is not actually late for a 15 y/o on holiday to be out on the town. I certainly won't be letting my daughter out when she is 15y/o until 2am anywhere not just in Thailand as I think this is completely unnecessary and an unacceptable time for someone of that age to be out and about especially given some of the types of people that are also out at that time. As parents we have to accept some responsibility for our children's whereabouts and goings on.

Also, as distressing as some of the comments are to you LivinLOS, this is a forum and as such everyone is entitled to their point of view whether we agree with it or not or even if we like it or not hence the name forum. No offence is meant with that statement LivinLOS and I'm sorry for your pain but I'm just trying to put it (the posts) into perspective.

My heartfelt condolences to the surving members of the family.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is a tragic loss of life, and the driver of the motorbike should be punished, however, I know personally a number of farangs who have killed Thai's whilst drunk, and the going rate is around 500k for police, family etc. This figure depends ofcouse on how powerful the family is. It is an accepted part of Thai life, and these things are almost always settled out of court between the two parties with the police acting as a go between the two parties. This goes for Thai/Thai, Thai/farang.

I myself was mown down by a taxi who was on the wrong side of the road on a blind bend, I was on a motorbike, he left me for dead, luckily someone found me, i'm now walking after 3 operations, it took me 2 years to walk again. The driver was never found, i'm pretty sure the police could have found out, but it's taxi mafia, so not worth their effort!

I'd like to comment on the Daughter being out at 1am.

When I was 15 and on holiday, I was going out at that time, my parants were cool with that, and knew I wasn't stupid.

If a responsible 15 yr old wants to be out at that time, wouldn't you rather your daughter was with a trusted nanny who hadn't been drinking, than out on her own, getting a lift back from a drunk taxi driver? I think the family were very responsible for their daughter, and quite frankly I find it offensive that anyone could suggest otherwise. Kids will be kids, and will sneak out at that age, which can lead to bigger problems, as long as they are sensible and act responsibly then whilst on holiday let them out. If they have been brought up properly, you should have no reason to worry.

What happened is a tragic accident and shows the effects of drink driving, the drunk driver must take full responsibility.

My thought and prayers are with the family.

[greenwanderer108]

One thing's for sure, what doesn't kill you will make you stronger. I trust/hope this experience doesn't kill Mr. and Mrs. Starks though I imagine it must be one of the hardest things to have a child leave this life before your ownself.

I'm sure if Mr. and Mrs. Starks ever take a vacation again, they won't permit their other children out on a motorcycle, atleast not protected with a helmet, and certainly not at such hours.

Peerapong doesn't seem like he'll learn his lesson any time soon. How can he when daddy and mommy are there to bail him out? I imagine he'll be in the pubs before the year is up again...and if this turns out to be the sad truth, nature has her way of reuniting us with our karma---no motorcycle in the world is fast enough to escape the wrath of the furies.

Surely Peerapong had/has a conscience and remorse, but like I said with such parents behind him probably convincing him that it was the girl's own fault for not wearing a helmet, though it was unlikely that Peerapong was wearing one at such an hour at his alcohal level, Peerapong might not be able to feel such remorse and pain any time soon.

Most likely is Peerapong and folks went to the temple the next day with a few grand and a bunch of orange baskets, got the magic healing water sprinkled on them and justified to themselves that their 'good' deed wiped out their karma.

This is where modern practiced Thai Buddhism has its flaws. For one to do good expecting reward or some other effect is only self justification, but any student of Buddhism or Hinduism would know that Karma can not be wiped out or balanced off with merit...once created, it must be recieved in one way or another. Some believe that enough merit has the ability to lose karma in the dust....even if this is possible, creating merit for this purpose is not merit in itself, as pure merit is done in essence of goodness of virtue, not with specific intent, etc.

Kind of off the subject, maybe I should go and join in the religous threads.

[Scott]

Truly sad.

I have a problem with people who decide to blame the victim(s). There are a 1001 reasons why people might be out at 2 a.m. and a lot are legitimate. The last time I was out that late was to get medicine for an upset stomach.

So when is it safe? At least once a month there is a motorbike accident at the main road near my soi--usually around 6:30 to 7:00 a.m. On their way to work. I've seen 3 dead people there.

Why are noodle stands open at that time? Maybe people shouldn't be allowed to eat after 10:00 p.m.

An acquaintance was recently mugged and received a very severe beating and spent a lot of time in the hospital. The first remark by the manager was what was he doing out at that time of night (between 10-11 p.m.), he should have been home in bed!

For a lot of foreigners there is this little thing called jet lag that means their biological clock is running on a different time and being up in the middle of the night and feeling hungry does happen.

[LivinLOS]

Just to correct a possible miss conception.. I dont think the family are particularly wealthy.. They just went immediately through thier phone book to call the assistance of the higheest up the ladder in local position they could find and asked him to represent them as a favor..

Also as I stated in earlier posts Mrs Stark died a few years ago leaving the 3 children to John.. All the more tragic to the remaining family..

[erikr_]

Just to correct a possible miss conception.. I dont think the family are particularly wealthy.. They just went immediately through thier phone book to call the assistance of the higheest up the ladder in local position they could find and asked him to represent them as a favor..

Also as I stated in earlier posts Mrs Stark died a few years ago leaving the 3 children to John.. All the more tragic to the remaining family..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The girl is 15 years old, she is on Holiday in Thailand with her father and was send home at one. This is not that late? You are absolutely right. From the name I learn she is english and most english boys and girls go to spain for holiday to places like benidorm. Well been there seen that, they go out to bars, get drunk till deep in the night from age 13-14 on. THEY ARE ON HOLIDAY

We were not much different from that when we were young. So don't hassle about it.

My condolances go to the family and related people and LiL we will drink one in her honor as soon as I am in Patong. No one deserves to die!

Edited July 15, 2005 by erikr_

[Johpa]

Just to correct a possible miss conception.. I dont think the family are particularly wealthy.. They just went immediately through thier phone book to call the assistance of the higheest up the ladder in local position they could find and asked him to represent them as a favor..

Also as I stated in earlier posts Mrs Stark died a few years ago leaving the 3 children to John.. All the more tragic to the remaining family..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Deputy Mayor will not just show up for some chao naa. The family may not be in the upper elite, but to have a deputy mayor of a large town is not a phuu yai to sneeze at. As for those who asked, the family name looks to be a translation of a Chinese family name. The lad's extended family clearly has some local collective influence and has circled their wagons to allow the lad's parents to make an offer that is affordable, perhaps by loan, to the boy's family.

This is simply the way these things are negotiated in Thailand. The person with the more powerful phuu yai wins. The visiting tourist family, without having well connected friends, has little power. And these incidences rarely go to courts simply because that is not the way local civil affairs are handled in Thailand. It is too bad that there are so few expats who (1) understand how Thai power manifests itself and (2) so few that are willing to kiss some ass of those who might be potential phuu yais for future reference.

If you are an expat living in Thailand for over two years and have not yet cultivated any phuu yais then you have no right to complain when things go against you in such troublesome happenstances. I admit that living in the rural areas it is easier to find the correct friendships to cultivate, such as the local kamaan. And I always like to make an effort to meet and greet and entertain the local nai amphoe or an asssisatant, not to mention my hosting the local policeman on occasion.

My deepest sympathies go out to the family. And yes, in one sense this was just a tragic accident. But I do not let my teenaged son, who is an excellent driver and who speaks Thai better than myself, drive around in the wee hours specifically becuase of all the drunks on the roads at that time.

[Tornado]

I heard about this today as the uncle of the girl is a mate of a mate. I was told that the father of the daughter, had also just lost his wife and was over here with his son and daughter (RIP).. sad story indeed.

edit - didnt see LivinLos post.

Edited July 15, 2005 by Tornado

[DaveYo]

Its no secret readers !!!!!!!    Here in Thailand over 80% of the Population are ALCOHOLICS.   They wake up drunk, are drunk during the daytime and go home drunk after work then they hit the bars and go home even drunker.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dave, you should stop hanging round with English teachers in Thailand, they are distorting your views.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Man, where have you been???? You must have your eyes shut pretty good, cause my friend, everywhere I go, the Thai people are boozing it up every hour by the hour. Watch the Motorbikers, so many are drunk it is downright scary. Hmmmm, even my girl here when she looks for a biker to give her rides home from work, she has a hard time finding one that is sober and she is Thai herself. I also have a friend of mine who is a Tourist Police Officer and even he can tell you that over 80 % of the Thai people are in a continuous state of some amount of drunkeness. Many can buy a cheapie bottle for around 20 Baht and that bottle alone keeps them happy for a couple of hours. Powerful stuff.

Most don't drink beer by the way. Most drink straight stuff clear right from a whiskey bottle. That is a big difference. Beer is not as strong as whiskey.

But you say otherwise, so kudos to you when you stand on the sidewalk and watch a biker whiz by you and ahhhhhhh for petes sake see em splat on some tree and or metal. Then you will wake up. Hopefully your not on that bike when it happens.

Daveyo