Divorce Agreement And Custody

[Bung]

I've been poring over all the threads concerning this and I guess everyone's case is a little different. Sorry if it has been covered before but I really need some sound advice in this hard time and I don't want to make any more mistakes about trying to make a life here, it's cost me enough financially and mentally already.

Mine situation is pretty straight forward, we both agree to go to the Amphur for a divorce. I read everything about getting an agreement written up and that should be easy enough. we are in kind of an agreement about what to do already, we are living (renting) in CM and she gets the house in Phetchabun (her home town) and I get to keep the car , motorbike and all my own stuff that I took out of the old house and brought up here. So far so good.

We have a 9 year old boy and I feel the standard 50/50 custody will be fair. What I would like is for her to stay in CM while I am away working for 2 months (all expenses paid) and for her to go home to Phetchabun for the month I am back so I can be with my son and she can go see her family and her other son (not mine). Trouble is, she is already making noises about leaving and taking the boy back to Phetchabun to live. She may dump him with the grandmother and try and work overseas. I don't want this as the reason we moved up here was to give him a better education and I don't see why I should have to go there to see him when I am off work. Down there he is at a basic school and am not prepared to support her if she wants to live back there. I am happy to pay for everything up here including the international school fees.

My question is as a 50% custodian can I stop her from doing this (given the education he is getting here) and if not can I get that written into an agreement? I am quite happy to support them here as he has a half decent chance of a life living here. If she goes back will I be able to go there and have any rights to enforce an agreement?

A lot of people are saying I am better off staying married but the way I see it she can run off with everything and I couldn't do anything about it, if divorced I could do something legally about it. I would prefer to put it behind me and if we can get the above on an agreement it would be ok for me, I'm just worried about the boys future.

Also, anyone who knows a good lawyer who could draw up the agreement, a pm would be appreciated. Would it be best for us both to go or should I go see them first?

TIA

Edited September 6, 2010 by Bung

[sarahsbloke]

As far as I know without a divorce, custody is for you and your wife to decide, nothing to do with the courts.

You are entitled to 50/50 custody unless you sign it away at the Amphur office on the divorce papers.

So be very careful, once signed away, you are unlikely to get it back (and the agreement will be in Thai).

Why not suggest you pay for everything when the son is with you, and she pays for everything when the son is with her. If you agree to be a cash cow, she will hang onto your son and milk you for all it's worth.

Thai families often place no worth on a son and don't really want to hang onto them unless there is a daft white person prepared to pay to not have his son.

I'm afraid I have had to adopt a very harsh attitude towards my children (due to an insane mother). Those that live with me in my house I support totally, those who live elsewhere can go ............

Edited September 6, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[sbk]

Boarding school isn't an option?

[Lumumba]

Sarah'sbloke have a sound point.

[Mario2008]

A divorce agreement should be made with the help of a lawyer, especially when there are assets and custody is involved. A good lawyer specialised in family law would be isaan lawyers/thailaw online.

If you divorce at the amphur, you can make any agreement you make, inclusing regarding custody over the child. If you can't come to an agreement, you have to go to court.

But if she wants to stay in Petchabun and you in Chaingmai, 50-50 will be problematic and not in the intrest of the child. However, she can not dump hi at her mother and go and work overseas. If the child can't be with the mother, than you as the father have the right to take care of him. The question is if you can do that, if you are away for long times.

On the otherside your ex-wife also has the right to live her own live and follow her own career and live where she wants and not being handicapped by you. If she has to stay 2 months in Chaing Mai and than can go away for 1 month that would not be very fair to her.

A boarding school has ben suggested and would be an excellent idea.

[MikeyIdea]

Sorry to hear about your problems, hope things stay decently calm

I think you should contact a lawyer before you go to amphur and discuss with him what you want to have done. I think that it would be a good idea to let him meet the mother before you go to the amphur too, he can explain several things about the law (the limitations of the law) and the mothers rights that the mother doesn’t know I would think. And amphur is for mutual agreement divorces so you and the mother should have agreed before you go there, the lawyer can perhaps not make you two agree but he can help by telling the mother that the law does not support what she wants. I think you should bring the lawyer to the amphur too to be on the safe side. I have no one to recommend up there unfortunately. Many Thai lawyers do not know much about Family law, make sure you get one who is specializing in family law

Whatever you do, don’t sign the gurdianship away… The Thai word is ผู้ปกครอง puu bock-kraang, never accept anything less than that you and the mother jointly together are puu bock-kraang!

I leave your possessions out, not that important in the long run. But…

Custody and more important than custody even, the possession of the child, that’s the most important thing. I recommend that you do NOT sign anything in a custody agreement that gives you less than 50% of the time. If you once have signed for less than 50%, then the mother can hold you to it and you would have to go to court to get what you have increased. The law in Thailand is really on the childs side, not mainly on the mothers side like it used to be in Europe (and still is in many countries). You have equal right to possession of the child – if you are a good father – don’t sign that away easily

A few things you write;

You write – I am not prepared to support her if she wants to live back there

Legally, the mother is entitled to absolutely zero for herself, zero bath. You should never tell the mother that you are prepared to support her unless she gives you a lot in return. I don’t know exactly what the legal minimum for a 9-year-old is but it’s no more that 4,000 bath per month for sure and ALL of that is for the child, nothing is for the mother. If you are prepared to give the mother more than 4,000 bath per month, then you should demand things in return. Do not underestimate the power of money. Many westerners have experienced that easy money also makes it easy for women to look down on you, not quite the thing that is fostering respect. Don’t be afraid of Juvenile court if the mother is selfish and plays hard, many mothers have been taken down at Juvenile court. Alimony is for child ONLY and there is no alimony for the wife when divorcing either in Thailand. Things bought during marriage is simply split 50 – 50, most Thai women do not know this

You worry that the mother will dump the child with the grand mother. Here’s the rule: You are the father and you do not accept that the grand mother take care of the child, full stop. If you and the mother has shared custody then either the mother OR you take care of the child, never the grand mother. If the mother doesn’t take care of the child, then she must hand over the child to you, full stop.

You are prepared to pay for education? That is something that the mother and the father normally jointly should pay. If you pay all of it yourself – better worded – if you and the mother decide that the father should pay all of it, then of course the father decide where that education should be – otherwise the mother pays half. You do not have to accept that you pay education but the mother decides where. You should be able to do pretty well in court on this point if the mother plays hard. The child will get better education where you want him to study and he’s already studying there now by the way (no need to up-root the child by moving him), you as father is prepared to pay all if the court decides what is in the best long-term interest of the child, the mother isn’t going to get far if the only thing she can offer is a government school in Petchabun. If you are a good father for your child – don’t be afraid of juvenile court I recommend that you pay education yourself in the future, do not give money to the mother and she pays – keep evidence

Can you as 50/50 custodian stop mother from taking child and move her to Petchabun? No, not without taking it to court but it shouldn’t be difficult to get court to agree that it’s better for the child to get an international school education… Initially No, you can’t stop her but you should be able to, with the help of Juvenile court, to overturn the mothers action. And the child is back where you want him 6 to 9 months later.

You write - If she goes back, can I go there and enforce agreement? Not go back to the mothers house and enforce agreement, no, but you can go to Juvenile court and force the agreement there, shouldn’t be difficult. At the end of the day: it’s better for the child. If it’s not better for the child, then you may not be able to force an agreement even if the mother signed it. Everything is in the best interest of the child. Let the mother get used to the thought that Juvenile court decide in the best interest of the child

What you write in a custody agreement is normally until child reaches majority – how long will you continue to work the way you do? You can put in rules like - child is to be taken care of by either father or mother only (not necessary as the law already is that but it would be clearer for the mother that the grand mother firmly is out), mother takes care of child when father is abroad and father takes care of child when he is in Thailand. Mother and father share taking care of the child 50 / 50 (no need to mention that father will be abroad more than 50% of the time if that is the case, only who should take care of the child if he is - already done by saying that the child is to be taken care of by either the father or the mother only)

I don’t think that it matters in terms of custody and possession of the child if you are married or not, divorce is forcing that you formalize possession though, Do Not Accept Any Agreement Giving You Less Than 50% of the Time! Pardon me being a bit loud

Getting a good lawyer is important, check his knowledge with what I write about child and wife alimony above. Negotiations between you and the mother is Good, I think you should negotiate and don’t forget the power of money and that it starts at slightly less than 4,000 bath per month and mother and father share education costs. You can trade money for possession, but trade carefully, money is power.

Key Take away; You are probably in a better position than you thought so if you feel that you must push this to court to get a fair deal, by all means do. Always think what is the best for the child

Good Luck

[Bung]

Thanks so much for the replies, it's really appreciated.

I went to see a lawyer recommended by a poster here and he is drawing up an agreement that I think is fair but good for me as well, it is a no nonsense agreement and stipulates that when I am back here I get to be with my son and if she flips and takes him away she will forgo here custody rights to me which should hopefully stop her from doing anything stupid.

Lets hope she agrees to it and can be done with it I'll post the results, I should have it tomorrow afternoon then off to the amphur Wednesday.

[MikeyIdea]

Thanks so much for the replies, it's really appreciated.

I went to see a lawyer recommended by a poster here and he is drawing up an agreement that I think is fair but good for me as well, it is a no nonsense agreement and stipulates that when I am back here I get to be with my son and if she flips and takes him away she will forgo here custody rights to me which should hopefully stop her from doing anything stupid.

Lets hope she agrees to it and can be done with it I'll post the results, I should have it tomorrow afternoon then off to the amphur Wednesday.

I recommend writing that you get in the agreement that you share time with the child 50 / 50 too, in addition to that when you're here you get the child etc. Maybe your work conditions change and you can't be in Thailand more than 6 weeks per year in a couple of years time. It's wise to cater for that scenario in the agreement

Good Luck

Michael

[Bung]

Well, I did the deed and am now divorced and ended up with full custody of my son. With the help of poster Ventura law I was able to get an agreement made up with my wife. It almost didn't work though when the girl at the Amphur decided to have a long talk with my wife about why she would give me custody I nearly told her to mind her own business. I mean really, should she be having that kind of conversation with a customer or just do her job? Pity no one warned me about some of the pitfalls of living here before I went ahead and signed....

In the end the agreement didn't mean anything as it all gets written into the divorce papers filed which the amphur keeps origials of They didn't recognise the agreement nor took a copy of it but it is fully signed and witnessed and will accompany the divorce papers I will carry. I think without it there was no way she would have signed custody to me, it really hammered home the point of what I wanted to do and that I was serious enough to get a lawyer involved.. I don't know why she did it as she initially said no way but maybe finally she decided to do something good for me once in our life together....Either that or she felt it was worth it for her to keep living in the style she has become accustomed to, she knew there would be big problems if I didn't get custody. Also had to negotiate child support which is written into the divorce papers and had a great time bartering with her a price. Quite an apt way to end it really.....

She gets the house of course (what can I do with it?)but I am very happy to have control over my sons future. I have no grand plans to take him away, it is business as usual and there isn't anything really different in our lives after today but am planning a nice trip to Australia next year with him that I am totally free to do and enjoy with him

Cheers.

[MikeyIdea]

Glad that all worked out OK

Well, it's not that unusual that the officers working at the "divorce section" at the amphur have degrees in law and I suppose it is up to situation if that is good or not.

We had another member a while back who also had divorced at the amphur (without the help of the lawyer). In that case, the officer had asked both father and mother what and how they wanted it etc, then she made her own judgement of what was best for the child and wrote that she gave the western father sole custody and made the mother the nanny... The western father got the divorce agreement translated some time later and the mother wasn't too happy when the sole custodian decided to use his right according to law and change nanny

Good or bad but it is the officers job to advice too

Best of Luck

Michael

[sarahsbloke]

......... Also had to negotiate child support which is written into the divorce papers and had a great time bartering with her a price. Quite an apt way to end it really.....

She gets the house of course (what can I do with it?)but I am very happy to have control over my sons future. I have no grand plans to take him away, it is business as usual and there isn't anything really different in our lives after today but am planning a nice trip to Australia next year with him that I am totally free to do and enjoy with him

Cheers.

Well done

If I may ask, why are you paying child support?

(courts usually award about 100bht a day per child for child support, but there is no enforcement as far as I know)

You have full custody ..............

Edited September 8, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[venturalaw]

Well, I did the deed and am now divorced and ended up with full custody of my son. With the help of poster Ventura law I was able to get an agreement made up with my wife. It almost didn't work though when the girl at the Amphur decided to have a long talk with my wife about why she would give me custody I nearly told her to mind her own business. I mean really, should she be having that kind of conversation with a customer or just do her job? Pity no one warned me about some of the pitfalls of living here before I went ahead and signed....

In the end the agreement didn't mean anything as it all gets written into the divorce papers filed which the amphur keeps origials of They didn't recognise the agreement nor took a copy of it but it is fully signed and witnessed and will accompany the divorce papers I will carry. I think without it there was no way she would have signed custody to me, it really hammered home the point of what I wanted to do and that I was serious enough to get a lawyer involved.. I don't know why she did it as she initially said no way but maybe finally she decided to do something good for me once in our life together....Either that or she felt it was worth it for her to keep living in the style she has become accustomed to, she knew there would be big problems if I didn't get custody. Also had to negotiate child support which is written into the divorce papers and had a great time bartering with her a price. Quite an apt way to end it really.....

She gets the house of course (what can I do with it?)but I am very happy to have control over my sons future. I have no grand plans to take him away, it is business as usual and there isn't anything really different in our lives after today but am planning a nice trip to Australia next year with him that I am totally free to do and enjoy with him

Cheers.

Was happy to help out Bung. Best of luck to you and your son.

[Bung]

......... Also had to negotiate child support which is written into the divorce papers and had a great time bartering with her a price. Quite an apt way to end it really.....

She gets the house of course (what can I do with it?)but I am very happy to have control over my sons future. I have no grand plans to take him away, it is business as usual and there isn't anything really different in our lives after today but am planning a nice trip to Australia next year with him that I am totally free to do and enjoy with him

Cheers.

Well done

If I may ask, why are you paying child support?

(courts usually award about 100bht a day per child for child support, but there is no enforcement as far as I know)

You have full custody ..............

I work away, 2 months on 1 off so I need to give her money to take care of things while I am away.

[MikeyIdea]

......... Also had to negotiate child support which is written into the divorce papers and had a great time bartering with her a price. Quite an apt way to end it really.....

She gets the house of course (what can I do with it?)but I am very happy to have control over my sons future. I have no grand plans to take him away, it is business as usual and there isn't anything really different in our lives after today but am planning a nice trip to Australia next year with him that I am totally free to do and enjoy with him

Cheers.

Well done

If I may ask, why are you paying child support?

(courts usually award about 100bht a day per child for child support, but there is no enforcement as far as I know)

You have full custody ..............

The interpretation of the law is seen from the perspective of what is best for the child. Child alimony is calculated based on a formula and you are correct that it comes up to approx. 100 bath per day for a 3 year old. And a mother asking for more than that in court is often told what the law supports - enough to feed and clothe the child but nothing for the mother. There is no rule saying that the mother must get alimony either. There was a case here at ThaiVisa a while back where the farang father presented himself well and ensured the courts that he was a good father, the mother on the other hand didn't and said things like - I don't want to see the father... Judges don't like that because it is obviously not good for the future of the child for the mother to be like that and since the mother didn't specifically ask for money, she got none either. Shared custody and the mother got ZERO alimony. The courts would have had no problem informing the mother that she can get some money too if she had deserved it, she didn't so no one said anything. The courts are also perfectly OK with more money, up to negotiations. There is no fixed rule, how much money that is granted in child alimony is up to each case. No one can *demand* more than around a hundred bath per day or so for a 3 year old, that's all

It's not quite correct that there is no enforcement, there certainly is. Pay-roll is confidential information so I can't get exact information here but I know that the company I work for has several employees that are under a court ruling to pay money every month, they are listed separately and the pay-roll outsourcing company we use get a separate file every month with the ones to treat differently from the normal case. The reasons for the court orders differ and I don't know them, doesn't matter, the company does this only on court order and unpaid alimony is clearly a valid reason for someone to get a court order if they want. There is a process for enforcement

Edited September 13, 2010 by MikeyIdea