Fatal Pattaya Baht-Bus Accident Caused By Drunk Canadian

[tropo]

Time to bash Thais again? This has nothing to do with Thais or education, it's solely a result of no traffic enforcement. If they took away all traffic enforcement in England the roads would be as dangerous or worse because British motorists are far more aggressive...and I'm not picking on England, because it would be the same in Australia.

It may come as a surprise to you that even in highly educated societies the only way to keep traffic safe is to continually enforce laws and make the penalties stiff.

Examples:

To prevent speeding - introduce speed cameras

To prevent red light running - introduce red light cameras

To stop young drivers going beserk - introduce anti-hoon laws (confiscate cars)

To stop drink driving - set up road blocks and test all drivers

To keep cars safe and smokeless - introduce strict roadworthy testing

To keep cars quiet - introduce strict exhaust decibel limits

Set fines equal to an average week's pay minimum for most offenses and keep police on the road 24/7. In Pattaya the traffic police disappear after midnight (not that they do much before midnight except besides scamming foreigners.

It took decades to get traffic under control in developed countries. It will take a huge effort over a long period of time to do the same in Thailand.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Rimmer
Quoted deleted reply sorry Tropo !!

[julemanden]

Drunk driver causing an accident, how unexpected.

I have been all over the world and a lots of rowdy places. Pattaya was the only place I ever been and saw at 11 AM patrons falling off barstools on a regular basis.

This has to be the Sewer in the world not how it looks like but the people that hang out there.

Strange that you say this, because i seen exact the same thing many different places in the world and for that matter many different paces in Thailand, not only Farangs, but also Thais. Besides this, many Bath taxi drivers is taking all kind of drugs to stay awake... Pattaya has it's good and bad sides, same as most larger city's has, no more, no less...

[Tolley]

Drunk driver causing an accident, how unexpected.

I have been all over the world and a lots of rowdy places. Pattaya was the only place I ever been and saw at 11 AM patrons falling off barstools on a regular basis.

This has to be the Sewer in the world not how it looks like but the people that hang out there.

you have not travelled enough then,narrow minded ,probably you have never been here before,,go to Ibiza or or other Spanish resorts,and many more places in the world ,and many more places in Thailand ,where people are off there faces on what ever substance,you hate Pattaya start a new thread,as this problem happens every where in the world.,this thread is about something that can happen anywhere,without you giving the good people of this city(which is much bigger than the tourist town) a bad name,pattaya is much bigger than walking st,beach rd, 2nd rd ,travel some more and take in your surroundings,not just rowdy places in the world,where are these rowdy places in the world that you have travelled to,you must like it?????????

Well he might not be travelled but i most certainly am, and far more then someone who uses Ibiza as an example.

But not many place are as dangerous as Pattaya, the driving and roads here are a deathtrap.

The Farangs here are as bad if not worse then the Thais, they seem to think just because they can get away with DD'ing and im talking mortally drunk that they have to.

<deleted> crossing the road most times of the day is putting your life at risk such places as beach and 2nd road where the tourists who support this town go, most drivers would sooner run you over then slow down a little, and the country you mention is nothing like this.

Ive nothing against Pattaya, as all other tourist resorts in Thailand have exactly the same things going on as there, but the driving in downtown Pattaya is an utter joke and as bad as you can get.

If you have travelled as much as you say you have then you wouldn't make this kind of statement.

Pattaya is really on a level 2 tier compared to many other places in the world.

Have you ever been to the Middle East?

Have you been to India?

Have you been to South Africa?

Driving is much more hazardous in these places.

While driving in Thailand and Pattaya is more dangerous than in most western countries it still lags far behind the danger level of many other countries.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Rimmer
Quoted from deleted reply edited

[shotover]

I know Frank personally.

Not seen him for a few years, he was always a much more portly chap so it appears as though he has been hitting the drugs way too much.

If you ever met him you'd find him a likeable guy, he has fukced up seriously though. Your a nice guy Frank, but you can't expect much sympathy.

RIP to the victims.

Thanks for the post. It is refreshing to hear from someone who actually knows Giannini, after reading dozens of posts just speculating about him.

Very little information about him from the media. Maybe future info will reveal if he had lived in Thailand for many years, if he had a business or worked here, and if his visa was valid.

[neverdie]

Time to bash Thais again? This has nothing to do with Thais or education, it's solely a result of no traffic enforcement. If they took away all traffic enforcement in England the roads would be as dangerous or worse because British motorists are far more aggressive...and I'm not picking on England, because it would be the same in Australia.

It may come as a surprise to you that even in highly educated societies the only way to keep traffic safe is to continually enforce laws and make the penalties stiff.

Examples:

To prevent speeding - introduce speed cameras

To prevent red light running - introduce red light cameras

To stop young drivers going beserk - introduce anti-hoon laws (confiscate cars)

To stop drink driving - set up road blocks and test all drivers

To keep cars safe and smokeless - introduce strict roadworthy testing

To keep cars quiet - introduce strict exhaust decibel limits

Set fines equal to an average week's pay minimum for most offenses and keep police on the road 24/7. In Pattaya the traffic police disappear after midnight (not that they do much before midnight except besides scamming foreigners.

It took decades to get traffic under control in developed countries. It will take a huge effort over a long period of time to do the same in Thailand.

Typically a good tropo post. This about sums things up.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Rimmer
Quoted deleted reply edited

[siamiam]

I passed through there tonight and to what I remembered, there are TWO CCTV cameras on that round-a-bout. Has anyone seen the actual video of this accident? I'm very curious if a speeding baht bus was at fault. I know I've almost been killed several times (on my bike) by a bhat bus from hel_l speeding as if his life depending on it.

In addition to his post #104 quoted above, I want to reference post #50 by Tokay, as well as post #61 by Newermonkey, and post #65 by Cardholder.

I have seen many instances of people driving in Thailand without their headlights turned on. I would like to know if the baht bus had its headlights on. Tokay asks a good question, "was the baht bus driver also tested for intoxication?" If one or both of the drivers involved in this accident test possitive for intoxication, do they have any prior arrests for this?

I am not taking anyone's side and I am not looking for mitigating circumstances for one party or the other. However, I would like to see the blame for this terrible accident placed accurately where it belongs. Right now, it looks like Mr. Giannini may have commited a traffic infraction, that caused or contributted to deaths and injuries, but there could be more to the story. If there is a CCTV recording of the accident, as Tokay has suggested there may be, it might answer many questions.

Assuming the report was correct and the Canadian bypassed the roundabout to turn right at a high rate of speed it wouldn't matter much if the baht bus driver was drunk or not, it wouldn't have been his fault.

I am assuming that the report is correct and that Mr. Giannini did bypass the roundabout at a high rate of speed. If Mr. Giannini was intoxicated enough, I suppose he may have not been aware of the baht bus even if its headlights were visible. However, I also think it is possible that a person could be over the intoxication limit, but still be capable of recognizing headlights in front of him and making corrections in his speed, etc., to avoid an accident like the one we are writing about, if the headlights were in fact on. If the baht bus did not have its headlights on, it may mean that Mr. Giannini could not see the bus, hence no reduction in his speed on approaching the roundabout. This in no way excuses Mr. Giannini's actions. However, if the baht buss headlights were not on, I believe the driver of the bus would also have culpability in the accident, reagrdless of weather he was intoxicated or not. I would want to know if the baht bus driver was intoxicated just to have the additional information, the same reason that I would want to know of prior arrests for drunk driving of either party.

[whybother]

I am assuming that the report is correct and that Mr. Giannini did bypass the roundabout at a high rate of speed. If Mr. Giannini was intoxicated enough, I suppose he may have not been aware of the baht bus even if its headlights were visible. However, I also think it is possible that a person could be over the intoxication limit, but still be capable of recognizing headlights in front of him and making corrections in his speed, etc., to avoid an accident like the one we are writing about, if the headlights were in fact on. If the baht bus did not have its headlights on, it may mean that Mr. Giannini could not see the bus, hence no reduction in his speed on approaching the roundabout. This in no way excuses Mr. Giannini's actions. However, if the baht buss headlights were not on, I believe the driver of the bus would also have culpability in the accident, reagrdless of weather he was intoxicated or not. I would want to know if the baht bus driver was intoxicated just to have the additional information, the same reason that I would want to know of prior arrests for drunk driving of either party.

If the bus didn't have it's lights on, then the bus driver should be charged with dangerous driving.

That doesn't reduce the culpability of the Canadian who:

a ) Shouldn't have been driving drunk.

b ) Shouldn't have turned right against the round about (being brought up driving on the other side of the road is no excuse, since he would have been driving on the left hand side of the road, and there are plenty of signs indicating that he shouldn't have turned right there).

c ) Shouldn't have been approaching the round about at a high speed.

[neverdie]

If the bus didn't have it's lights on, then the bus driver should be charged with dangerous driving.

Mate, the baht bus driver is deceased, its a bit hard to charge him.

[whybother]

If the bus didn't have it's lights on, then the bus driver should be charged with dangerous driving.

Mate, the baht bus driver is deceased, its a bit hard to charge him.

Oh ... Yes ... forgot about that.

[lapamita]

This roundabout has always been an accident black spot.

Strange how everyone is blaming the Canadian man here, I dint see in the article that he has been convicted (yet), just because he was drunk (although that is meant to be an offense here of course and he will ultimately pay dearly for it) it does not mean he caused the accident though.

This is as far as I know the only real main road roundabout in Pattaya. The Thai drivers are always totally confused when approaching it, with no one knowing who has any right of way.

The law is: "GIVE WAY TO THE TRAFFIC ON YOUR RIGHT WHEN ENTERING THE ROUNDABOUT" if that rule was applied there would be less accidents and perhaps this nasty one could have been avoided.

I would bet money that the taxi "songtaow" was coming from 2nd road and did not give way, or even slow down, the (speeding?) Canadian would have been on taxi,s right side who was probably already making his (perfectly legal) turn to the right to go to Naklua or go streight on down to beach road.

(Of course it would be interesting to know more facts rather than the PDN reporters assumptions)

The city council should install big signs at the approaches to all roundabouts, saying in Thai and English: "GIVE WAY TO TRAFFIC ON YOUR RIGHT"

the canadian was drunk and go to jail if guilty or not,, the law since 2008 state it like that , accdients with death-injured people over 0,15% p.m in a bloodtest.

but right goes first!!!! i drive many times on loma nobody cares. if him come from northpattaya rd or naklua and drive clockise, the bahtdriver not cares entering the roundabout,,that happens many time. neverless at 4 am and drunk and for sure on to highspeed,as well the taxi who not care.

if he cut the way, by driving from naklua into beachrd against the lane hes an arshole and wish good luck in jail.

but many bahtbusdrivers entering the roundabout without care,,but now still me as well, bcs whos bigger whos nervs better entering first, thats not the legal law, but thats the street law

[brahmburgers]

After initially reading the story, I was inclined to advise caution before condemning the farang driver. However, after hearing the description of him driving the wrong way around a roundabout (to save a second of time?), it appears he's at fault. Even so, baht buses and all sorts of other buses are known to drive recklessly in Thailand, so perhaps a bit more (hopefully objective) investigation may be needed before we quickly tie a hangman's loop and tossing it over the nearest branch.

[brahmburgers]

It may come as a surprise to you that even in highly educated societies the only way to keep traffic safe is to continually enforce laws and make the penalties stiff.

Examples:

To prevent speeding - introduce speed cameras

To prevent red light running - introduce red light cameras

To stop young drivers going beserk - introduce anti-hoon laws (confiscate cars)

To stop drink driving - set up road blocks and test all drivers

To keep cars safe and smokeless - introduce strict roadworthy testing

To keep cars quiet - introduce strict exhaust decibel limits

Set fines equal to an average week's pay minimum for most offenses and keep police on the road 24/7. In Pattaya the traffic police disappear after midnight (not that they do much before midnight except besides scamming foreigners.

Agree with the above, but in my area of northernmost Thailand, there's zero enforcement of serious traffic laws. Absolute zero. The rules of the road are evident, for the half day in the average Thai's lifetime he/she attends a seminar at the gov't office to get a license. However, stating traffic laws with zero enforcement is nuts, yet that's what we've got in C.Rai and probably the rest of Thailand.

The only enforcement of traffic laws I've ever seen (in 12 years of driving every day), is some stops of pretty college girls on motorbikes - for helmet or license checks - and for the cops to see whether they can get some phone numbers from the scared and giggling girls.

[NanLaew]

I passed through there tonight and to what I remembered, there are TWO CCTV cameras on that round-a-bout. Has anyone seen the actual video of this accident? I'm very curious if a speeding baht bus was at fault. I know I've almost been killed several times (on my bike) by a bhat bus from hel_l speeding as if his life depending on it.

In addition to his post #104 quoted above, I want to reference post #50 by Tokay, as well as post #61 by Newermonkey, and post #65 by Cardholder.

I have seen many instances of people driving in Thailand without their headlights turned on. I would like to know if the baht bus had its headlights on. Tokay asks a good question, "was the baht bus driver also tested for intoxication?" If one or both of the drivers involved in this accident test possitive for intoxication, do they have any prior arrests for this?

I am not taking anyone's side and I am not looking for mitigating circumstances for one party or the other. However, I would like to see the blame for this terrible accident placed accurately where it belongs. Right now, it looks like Mr. Giannini may have commited a traffic infraction, that caused or contributted to deaths and injuries, but there could be more to the story. If there is a CCTV recording of the accident, as Tokay has suggested there may be, it might answer many questions.

Assuming the report was correct and the Canadian bypassed the roundabout to turn right at a high rate of speed it wouldn't matter much if the baht bus driver was drunk or not, it wouldn't have been his fault.

I am assuming that the report is correct and that Mr. Giannini did bypass the roundabout at a high rate of speed. If Mr. Giannini was intoxicated enough, I suppose he may have not been aware of the baht bus even if its headlights were visible. However, I also think it is possible that a person could be over the intoxication limit, but still be capable of recognizing headlights in front of him and making corrections in his speed, etc., to avoid an accident like the one we are writing about, if the headlights were in fact on. If the baht bus did not have its headlights on, it may mean that Mr. Giannini could not see the bus, hence no reduction in his speed on approaching the roundabout. This in no way excuses Mr. Giannini's actions. However, if the baht buss headlights were not on, I believe the driver of the bus would also have culpability in the accident, reagrdless of weather he was intoxicated or not. I would want to know if the baht bus driver was intoxicated just to have the additional information, the same reason that I would want to know of prior arrests for drunk driving of either party.

You want? YOU WANT???

How about stretching your bizarre 'headlights off' hypothesis a little wider but keep it within the context of the vehicular homicide that is central to this debate. Did the black pickup driver turn on HIS headlights as he pulled away from the bar for his quick race to Beach Road? Oh my goodness! Is that possible? Foreigners are much better educated drivers and don't do this do they? Or is it only lazy, rip-off baht bus drivers who deliberately set out to entrap the helpless and unwary foreign driver who probably just wants to impress the girlies with his TOTALLY ILLEGAL anti-clockwise pass.

Give me a frigging break. The driver dies and we endlessly RIP the passengers that died but the song taew driver, by nature of his chosen occupation, doesn't get the same treatment here?

Have you ever been around Loma/Dolphin roundabout at 4am during the week? Like several others who talk about barriers that "stop it being a roundabout" you may be unaware that the junction is lit up like bloody Piccadilly Circus at night so anyone that cannot see a baht bus regardless if it had it's lights on or not, must have been blind (drunk). The barriers are only there on Friday and Saturday evenings and other peak holiday EVENING traffic times and are removed well before 4am on the two or three days that they are used. The pickup is full-frontal damaged and stopped mid track whereas the baht bus totally side-impact (for those who cannot grasp the 'T-boned' analogy) and is hurled sideways and backwards into the kerbside trees. Maybe some posting here were dumb f*ckers at physics but it's painfully obvious the black pickup was straight-lining at a much higher velocity to make a baht bus change bloody direction like that. If that baht bus was speeding then by the same argument, the black pickup must have been going even faster.

Honestly....

[DerringDo]

I see that the hang-em idiots are out in force.

I hope he gets treated exactly the same as a Thai person. It makes no difference that he is a Canadian.

What he did was very very wrong and I hope he pays the price. My sympathies are with those who deserve it, the victims.

RIP

[Rimmer]

Two inflammatory posts removed from view.

[skills32]

There are so many drunk expats on the road it's a wonder this does not occur with more frequency.I hope they throw the book at him and that others take the warning and appoint a designated driver when they start drinking.

[sirchai]

Apolgies for not including the full text of your post - my mistake I was trying to cut some of the crap that you had written. The extract was taken purely show that, in my opinion, blaming Thai society for the manslaughter of two of their citizens is misguided.

You have managed to respond with even greater insensitivity. Many people have expressed their sympathy for this tragic event, so your commentt about a 'comfort thread' is also inappropriate.

Thank you for the guidance on forum rules - in future, rather than quote your posts, I shall 'quick reply' using any extracts that I consider appropriate.

Two people, at least, have been killed and the best you can come up with is sarcastic comments about a euloguy

I'm not particularly concerned with what you personally consider inappropriate as there are moderators who can take care of that. You could try the report function which would quietly help you to have inappropriate content removed without disturbing the entire thread.

Now dismissing a post as "crap" is flaming. If you really had any concern for the deceased you wouldn't be starting a flame war, would you?

My goodness ! You do have a habit taking words and using them for your own purposes. I suspect that you are more familiar with 'flaming' than I will ever be.

I have no intention of 'flaming' you. 'Crap' , or garbage if you prefer, is simply the expression I used to give an opinion on the content of your post. If you are offended I am sure that you are fully capable of finding the afore-mentioned report button.

You guys act like little kids.

Fact is that two innocent people deceased. Let them rest in peace.

Edited September 12, 2010 by sirchai

[tropo]

If the bus didn't have it's lights on, then the bus driver should be charged with dangerous driving.

Charged with "dangerous driving" in Pattaya for not having headlights on? You must be joking.

Anyway, the Dolphin roundabout is very well lit at night. It has floodlights.

[technologybytes]

Well, my views on this matter will not be popular amongst the "Hang Em High" brigade that's for sure.

I have no time for drunk drivers, but it's hardly surprising that this kind of thing happens because drunk driving is tolerated in Thailand. I was at a new year party once and my wife was expecting the arrival of her uncle from Ubon, he called to say that he would be late because the police stopped him and found he was drunk, they made him drink coffee for a hour and then fined him 200 baht before letting him go on his way still drunk!

So, thousands of people drive drunk every day in Thailand and nobody even raises an eyebrow, unless of course there is a fatal accident/incident.

The law and the police need to be clear on the issue, I'm sure that many many Thai's dont know for sure if it's illegal to drive drunk (I'm not sure myself).

My absolute condolences to the victims and their families, and this drunk driver needs to be punished. But let he who is without sin cast the first stone so to speak, because I myself used to occasionally drive after a few drinks (not drunk) which I would never do in the UK where the law is much more clear about such things.

The driver was drunk and as such incapable of thinking the situation through, unless he was drinking alone his mates watched him get into his car drunk and said nothing, so probably did the bar owner where he was drinking.

Anyway, I stopped driving after a few drinks when I fell off my bike and broke my arm, just goes to show how your judgement is impaired after just a few drinks.

[Tanaka]

This will not make me popular, but somebody has to say it:

It won't be YOU, but at least 9 out of 10 of those speaking so self-righteous about how bad drunk driving is, do not drive a car in Thailand on a frequent basis, or they are hypocrites, having driven over the limit themselves.

In addition, there is a huge difference on *how* people drive when they are drunk, and that means a lot.

I have been driving over-limit quite a couple of times in my life, and I acknowledge that it increases the risk for accidents. It's just one of the things that you do, because the risk after all is so incredibly small if you drive nice. Neither myself nor any friend I know about have been involved in accidents when they were over limit.

I don't believe that I have a single friend who is a frequent-driver and who's never been over limit. Feel free to speak about how terrible persons my friends must be, but they look quite normal to me.

The driver in this accident is responsible and he will be punished, but let's be realitic: Thai society must take a part of the blame.

Rare police checks and it is easy to bribe yourself out of the situation (20,000 Baht is standard price). Haven't tried it, a couple of friends have.

I'd be the first to prefer a change. Include speeding as well.

Especially in Pattaya there should be random checks every day by unbribable police.

A mandatory jail sentence - may I suggest one month - for anyone over a certain limit when driving a car.

That would help tremendously. Nothing else will be that effective.

Have a nice weekend with no accidents.

You and all your nice friends all drive safely and nicely when intoxicated. All drunk drivers say the same! You talk a lot about what your friends do, any of you nice people killed anyone yet? It is only a matter of time. Talk to your friends, maybe you can make a bet on who will be the first and the winner will get a free round. Man, you are incredibly stupid. Like all idiots who drive under influence. And no, someone did not have to say what you said. Only someone with a dysfunctional brain.

[siamiam]

I am assuming that the report is correct and that Mr. Giannini did bypass the roundabout at a high rate of speed. If Mr. Giannini was intoxicated enough, I suppose he may have not been aware of the baht bus even if its headlights were visible. However, I also think it is possible that a person could be over the intoxication limit, but still be capable of recognizing headlights in front of him and making corrections in his speed, etc., to avoid an accident like the one we are writing about, if the headlights were in fact on. If the baht bus did not have its headlights on, it may mean that Mr. Giannini could not see the bus, hence no reduction in his speed on approaching the roundabout. This in no way excuses Mr. Giannini's actions. However, if the baht buss headlights were not on, I believe the driver of the bus would also have culpability in the accident, reagrdless of weather he was intoxicated or not. I would want to know if the baht bus driver was intoxicated just to have the additional information, the same reason that I would want to know of prior arrests for drunk driving of either party.

NanLaew wrote:

You want? YOU WANT???

How about stretching your bizarre 'headlights off' hypothesis a little wider but keep it within the context of the vehicular homicide that is central to this debate. Did the black pickup driver turn on HIS headlights as he pulled away from the bar for his quick race to Beach Road? Oh my goodness! Is that possible? Foreigners are much better educated drivers and don't do this do they? Or is it only lazy, rip-off baht bus drivers who deliberately set out to entrap the helpless and unwary foreign driver who probably just wants to impress the girlies with his TOTALLY ILLEGAL anti-clockwise pass.

Give me a frigging break. The driver dies and we endlessly RIP the passengers that died but the song taew driver, by nature of his chosen occupation, doesn't get the same treatment here?

Have you ever been around Loma/Dolphin roundabout at 4am during the week? Like several others who talk about barriers that "stop it being a roundabout" you may be unaware that the junction is lit up like bloody Piccadilly Circus at night so anyone that cannot see a baht bus regardless if it had it's lights on or not, must have been blind (drunk). The barriers are only there on Friday and Saturday evenings and other peak holiday EVENING traffic times and are removed well before 4am on the two or three days that they are used. The pickup is full-frontal damaged and stopped mid track whereas the baht bus totally side-impact (for those who cannot grasp the 'T-boned' analogy) and is hurled sideways and backwards into the kerbside trees. Maybe some posting here were dumb f*ckers at physics but it's painfully obvious the black pickup was straight-lining at a much higher velocity to make a baht bus change bloody direction like that. If that baht bus was speeding then by the same argument, the black pickup must have been going even faster.

Honestly....

I would want. I Would Want. Of course I would, only fool's rush to judgment without all the pertinent information. I believe, in addition to being unpleasant in your response to my posts, you are also responding to things that others have written, as though the writings of other posters are mine. Just to clarify: I have not written about barriers or the lack of them in the roundabout, I have not sent any RIP's or other condolences to anyone, (however I do feel compassion for all those killed, injured, and otherwise involved in this traffic accident), I have never written about the "physics" involved in this collision, but I would never refer to someone whom I felt superior to in my understanding of such, as a "dumb <deleted>". That would be crass to say the least and indicative of someone who rushes to judgment.

In regards to what I have written that has drawn your scorn: No, I have never been to the roundabout in question at any time of day, I have never been there. You say that there is sufficient lighting to preclude the possibility of a lack of headlights being a contributing factor to this accident. I would want to see the lighting at 4am there for myself, or get a concensus on the matter from other posters that live in the area, before I agree with your assessment of there being no chance that lack of headlights could play a part in the accident. What ever the determination of this point turns out to be, I will likely maintain that it was a justified subject to broach, not bizarre at all, as I did not state it as a fact, but stated it as a possibility. Regarding your suggestion that Mr. Giannini's headlights could just as well have been turned off, I agree with you on this.

Regarding your interpretation of the "physics" of the crash, (which again, I previously have not written about), I disagree with your assessment that "If that baht bus was speeding then by the same argument, the black pickup must have been going even faster." This is a statement that cannot be made as a certainty, without knowing the weights of the two vehicles involved. If it was a T-bone impact as you have stated, and I have no reason to doubt this, then I believe that the baht bus could have in fact been traveling at a faster rate of speed than the truck that hit it and the results could be the same as if the baht bus were traveling at a slower rate of speed than the truck.

You have written in such a way as to intimate that I look down on Thai people and consider their intelligence as inferior. You have mischaracterized me in this regard and I don't appreciate it.

Edited September 12, 2010 by siamiam

[tropo]

So, thousands of people drive drunk every day in Thailand and nobody even raises an eyebrow, unless of course there is a fatal accident/incident.

...AND it was caused by a foreigner.

Anyway, I stopped driving after a few drinks when I fell off my bike and broke my arm, just goes to show how your judgement is impaired after just a few drinks.

So even educated and apparently intelligent people from other countries are driving/riding around drunk. Are you a teenager? You had to fall off your bike to learn that drinking impairs judgement?

This is exactly why we have tough drink driving laws back at home...to protect fools from themselves and keep others safe. No amount of education will be enough to stop idiots from drinking and driving anywhere in this world.

[cardholder]

[quote name='tropo'

This is exactly why we have tough drink driving laws back at home...to protect fools from themselves and keep others safe. No amount of education will be enough to stop idiots from drinking and driving anywhere in this world.

I agree 100%.

I remember as a 16 year old in the UK regularly drinking and driving.

It was the tightening of the laws, and the introduction of the breathalyzer, that caused me to stop - not education.

(In one sense I suppose it was education - I quickly learned that if I was to persist with drinking and driving, it would cost me my licence and a whole lot of money).

[NanLaew]

I would want. I Would Want. Of course I would, only fool's rush to judgment without all the pertinent information. I believe, in addition to being unpleasant in your response to my posts, you are also responding to things that others have written, as though the writings of other posters are mine. Just to clarify: I have not written about barriers or the lack of them in the roundabout, I have not sent any RIP's or other condolences to anyone, (however I do feel compassion for all those killed, injured, and otherwise involved in this traffic accident), I have never written about the "physics" involved in this collision, but I would never refer to someone whom I felt superior to in my understanding of such, as a "dumb <deleted>". That would be crass to say the least and indicative of someone who rushes to judgment.

In regards to what I have written that has drawn your scorn: No, I have never been to the roundabout in question at any time of day, I have never been there. You say that there is sufficient lighting to preclude the possibility of a lack of headlights being a contributing factor to this accident. I would want to see the lighting at 4am there for myself, or get a concensus on the matter from other posters that live in the area, before I agree with your assessment of there being no chance that lack of headlights could play a part in the accident. What ever the determination of this point turns out to be, I will likely maintain that it was a justified subject to broach, not bizarre at all, as I did not state it as a fact, but stated it as a possibility. Regarding your suggestion that Mr. Giannini's headlights could just as well have been turned off, I agree with you on this.

Regarding your interpretation of the "physics" of the crash, (which again, I previously have not written about), I disagree with your assessment that "If that baht bus was speeding then by the same argument, the black pickup must have been going even faster." This is a statement that cannot be made as a certainty, without knowing the weights of the two vehicles involved. If it was a T-bone impact as you have stated, and I have no reason to doubt this, then I believe that the baht bus could have in fact been traveling at a faster rate of speed than the truck that hit it and the results could be the same as if the baht bus were traveling at a slower rate of speed than the truck.

You have written in such a way as to intimate that I look down on Thai people and consider their intelligence as inferior. You have mischaracterized me in this regard and I don't appreciate it.

Yes, despite your inability to use the forum properly to quote other posts, I WAS referencing other people's posts and not only yours. I am sorry you missed that but try to keep up.

You have never seen the scene of the crime so your repeated questioning about the baht buses headlight use is as redundant as OTHER PEOPLE'S posts regarding the non-existent barrier placement. One other Pattaya resident has posted here that the roundabout is very well illuminated. Tell 'em again tropo!

As for your contention that you need to assess vehicle weights before making a judgement call... <deleted>?! These are 2 pickups, the baht bus will have been heavier due to the cab on the back and the people inside. Therefore it has the larger mass. So anything of smaller mass (picture the black pickup) that collides with it (picture the bah bus) but still manages to make the larger mass (the baht bus) STOP AND CHANGE DIRECTION COMPLETELY.... oh bugger, there I go shouting aqain. Have you ever played snooker or pool? Conkers even?

At least we agree on some points and I apologise if it appeared that I lumped you in with the 'old colonial' attitude towards our hosts. I got lit up at your pedantic 'what iff-ing' and then got on a roll with some other posts that were based on ignorance and arrogance. You are neither... except for your grasp of the physics of objects in motion. I am not of the hang 'em high brigade but when it looks, walks and quacks like a duck... why bother with all the forensics when its sticks out like a dogs balls that one vehicle rammed head-on at high-speed into the side of the other whilst making an illegal driving maneuver?

[tropo]

You have never seen the scene of the crime so your repeated questioning about the baht buses headlight use is as redundant as OTHER PEOPLE'S posts regarding the non-existent barrier placement. One other Pattaya resident has posted here that the roundabout is very well illuminated. Tell 'em again tropo!

I've never been to Piccadilly Circus so I cannot make to a direct comparison, but the Dolphin roundabout is very well illuminated.;

Edited September 13, 2010 by tropo

[ScubaBuddha]

Wow, that video clip is graphic. Kind of wishing I hadn't watched it. But, I guess it's a good reminder for people of the damage then can inflict when they do something as idiotic as drinking & driving.

Welcome to Thailand where if it bleeds, it leads.

why is that guy pushing that womans ribs in and out clearly several inches from where her heart is

or am i wrong again

Guess you are, time for a First Aid Course I think.

You dont do the push directly over the heart. Draw a line between the breast nipples and in the middle you push, thats just a little over where the rips meet.

CH is right. You push on the center of the sternum, although I don't really agree with how his hands are connected..not the way I teach it. Fingers should be interlaced, but minor point really. The other way we teach how to find the right spot is to place your hand 2 or 3 finger widths above the zyphoid process. Press in 1.5 to 2 inches (4-5cm). Proper CPR can often break ribs.

I have to say that it was good to see some serious pre-hospital care being attempted in the video, but the "scoop and run" by completely untrained personnel is still too common in Thailand. I saw a lot of the same things you see in the west. CPR, bag valve masks, back boards with head beds, cervical collars, manual C-spine immobilization, even intubation and the jaws of life were used. All good things which give the victims the best chance for survival.

Edited September 13, 2010 by ScubaBuddha

[Thai at Heart]

The Canadian, if drunk deserves to get his punishment.

However, the roundabout layout there is a mess, no one understands how to use it properly (in fact this goes for just about every roundabout in Thailand. Give way to the right and all that).

They would be better to turn it into a traffic light junction for safety's sake.

[newermonkey]

I don't understand,he couldn't drink and drive in his own country why think it is ok to do it somewhere else. To me that is showing no respect to the law,

And to the people the past away and are injured,

Well... you know farangs seem to be able to always do things better than the Thais (concerning westernized things) and like the Thai people trying to copy the Farangs the farangs also copy the Thais but they do it - more, better, larger, and with more imagination.

All this Canadian was doing was copying what the Thais do all the time - Drinking, Taking Drugs, and driving like an idiot. except he took it all to a much more advanced, higher level with spectacular results!

[tropo]

The Canadian, if drunk deserves to get his punishment.

However, the roundabout layout there is a mess, no one understands how to use it properly (in fact this goes for just about every roundabout in Thailand. Give way to the right and all that).

Yeah, he can use that as an excuse. "It's such a mess I decided to avoid it".

[Thai at Heart]

The Canadian, if drunk deserves to get his punishment.

However, the roundabout layout there is a mess, no one understands how to use it properly (in fact this goes for just about every roundabout in Thailand. Give way to the right and all that).

Yeah, he can use that as an excuse. "It's such a mess I decided to avoid it".

I'm not saying that at all. If he was p*****d, all bets are off.

It is funny to me how every town in the country has at least one ornamental roundabout and absolutely NO ONE knows how to negotiate it in a standard manner.

It is as though all the city governers took a trip to the UK together 30 years ago and for the first time saw a roundabout, and thought "I want one of those in my town". Without bothering to notice that in Thailand no one has every been taught (although most would say that most of Thai drivers have ever been formally taught anyway)how to safely enter and leave a roundabout.