Uk Visitor Visa Fiasco!

[simon43]

Well, I and my Thai fiancee have just spent a very frustrating day at the British Embassy in Bangkok! It has not been a good day

I'll post the details and would appreciate any advice or comment, especially from the 'exports' like Scouser. Has my fiancee been treated fairly??

Some background info: I have lived in Thailand for almost 3 years, have a Thai company and 3 consecutive non-imm B visa stamps.

I met my GF about a year ago and together we have several bar businesses in BKK. The ownership is solely in her name, but both our names appear on the business contracts. So she is owner of Thai businesses worth around 4 million baht.

We live together in a rented apartment, and have bills with that address in her name and some in my name.

We have a range of photos taken together...

Anyway, I needed to visit the UK to attend a divorce hearing with my beautiful English wife My GF had never been to the UK, so it seemed a good idea for her to travel with me and stay for a few weeks. I was to be the sponsor, and we would stay at my UK house. My bank balance and hers alone was enough to finance the trip.

She therefore applied for a Visitor's visa and we attended the embassy this morning.

She was interviewed by a very arrogant British guy and a rather hiso Thai translator. The interviewing officer told her to come back this lunchtime with more evidence that we lived together.

So we returned with more photos, apartment bills etc etc.

The guy was not satisifed. He wanted evidence that we actually lived together. What more could we provide? Since we both lived together all the time, we sent no emails to each other, nor did we make long-distance phone-calls.

Anyway, she was told to return in November for an interview. The form that detailed this did not request any more documents to be provided by us. When I queried this, I was told that they had all the documents that they needed!

So she has to come back later this year for an interview, where no more documents are required, just so she can visit the UK for a couple of weeks.

We have absolutely no intention of settling in the UK. We both have good lives and business here in Thailand.

Is there anything we can do about this crazy scenario? The woman owns 3 mill baht of business, and her husband-to-be lives here, so she is hardly likely to want to settle in the UK!!

Although this fiasco does not stop me from visiting the UK alone, (I MUST go, to attend the divorce hearing), - it means that I must squeeze my trip down to literally only 1 or 2 days. The reason for this is that my fiancee has weak health (she weighs 33kg and is very thin!). And she misses me terribly When I went alone to the UK at Xmas, she collapsed and was hospitalised for 2 days. For sure, I don't want this to happen again.

Scouser, guys, what can we do? For starters, I didn't even know that she needs to 'prove' a relationship with me. What if she were travelling alone, and cited her business interests in LoS as a reason for returning??

Thanks for any advice

Simon - totally p*ssed off with the tw*ts at the British Embassy

[GU22]

From what you've said, she hasn't been refused but asked to come back at a later date for a full interview. Unfortunately the high demand for UK visas mean that they cannot allocate her an interview until November.

What you may be able to do is contact the Entry Clearance Manager and ask for the decision of the ECO to be reviewed. But as she has not actually been refused yet, I'm not sure if the ECM can or would do this.

If she had been refused, the refusal of a tourist visa cannot be appealed.

I didn't even know that she needs to 'prove' a relationship with me. What if she were travelling alone, and cited her business interests in LoS as a reason for returning??

If she were travelling alone then she would have no need to prove any relationship. But as you are acting as her sponsor the relationship does have to be proved.

Not what you wanted to hear, I know. Sorry.

Edited July 20, 2005 by GU22

[Khutan]

Simon;

Very similar story to other embassies. I am amazed that they didn't get some hoops of fire to make you jump through as well.

PM me if you want some help when you are away.

[simon43]

The most annoying thing is that the guy did not ask any questions about her business or reason to return to Thailand (she has a daughter here too..). And after he requested photos and bills with our address on them, (which we supplied), he still said it was insufficient proof, (but they want no more documents for the interview...).

What we wanted was proof of a 1 year relationship. This would actually be much easier to prove if I were in the UK, since we would have an email correspondecne trail etc. But we have not sent emails or made phone calls because we usually sit on the same sofa in our BKK apartment

To have to attend an interview for a simple visit to the UK with your fiance is crazy, especially when that fiance has lived in Thailand for 3 years and intends to stay here in the future...

As far as I am aware, a sponsore need not to have any relationship to the applicant. It is sufficient to prove place of abode in the UK for the applicant to stay at, and proof of funds (she has enough money of her own anyway, but the guy did not bother looking in her bankbook)

Simon

[manjara]

The most annoying thing is that the guy did not ask any questions about her business or reason to return to Thailand (she has a daughter here too..).  And after he requested photos and bills with our address on them, (which we supplied), he still said it was insufficient proof, (but they want no more documents for the interview...).

What we wanted was proof of a 1 year relationship.  This would actually be much easier to prove if I were in the UK, since we  would have an email correspondecne trail etc.  But we have not sent emails or made phone calls because we usually sit on the same sofa in our BKK apartment

To have to attend an interview for a simple visit to the UK with your fiance is crazy, especially when that fiance has lived in Thailand for 3 years and intends to stay here in the future...

As far as I am aware, a sponsore need not to have any relationship to the applicant.  It is sufficient to prove place of abode in the UK for the applicant to stay at, and proof of funds (she has enough money of her own anyway, but the guy did not bother looking in her bankbook)

Simon

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very sorry to hear this, as I have lived with my (now) wife for over 2 years in Thailand but while we were waiting to see the people at the embassy I was thinking about what I could do to show how long we had lived together.

Initially we lived in Centrepoint while I was working for a US company, then we bought a condo (in her name) and moved in there. I subsequently left the US compnay and worked on contracts around Asia, but was primarily 'based' in Thailand (though didn't work here per se)

In the event the guy (probably the same one as interviewed you - Window 2?) just looked long and hard at the marriage certifcate and that seemed to be enough.

I will have to go through the evidenciary route for a 'domicile interview' to legitimise my duaghter's birth as we married after it, so I'm not looking forward to that.

What else can you do to prove co-habitation? Does anyone have a set of things to collect as evidence?

[bangkokblue]

Whatever one (average joe) offers up in support holes will be picked, In this case 'co-habitation' such an easy getout. I bet he's used this one more than a few times.

A letter from your Apartment landlord should suffice, And/or a ranking thai official. ( you know, the one who collects the tea money)

As said, She hasn't been refused just delayed a wee while.

[GU22]

What else can you do to prove co-habitation? Does anyone have a set of things to collect as evidence?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When applying for ILR in the UK as the spouse of a British citizen one has to supply proof of cohabitation in the form of a selection of utility bills, bank statements, official letters etc. addressed both partners. Either a mixture of documents addressed to to each partner individually or jointly. I imagine similar would be acceptable to the ECOs.

Simon, you said

As far as I am aware, a sponsore need not to have any relationship to the applicant. It is sufficient to prove place of abode in the UK for the applicant to stay at, and proof of funds

Sorry, but it seems obvious to me that if one is sponsoring a visitor then there needs to be some sort of relationship between sponsor and visitor. Reading Guidance - Sponsors (INF 3) seems to confirm that this is so.

[Vulture]

Simon,

when do you actually need to visit the UK as it is not quite clear (and rather relevant in relation to your girlfriends interview date) ?

[expatinasia]

"my fiancee has weak health (she weighs 33kg and is very thin!)."

Unless she's a meter tall, we know she's very thin.

Part of the problem might be her apparent health situation. As you mentioned, if she doesn't see you for a couple days, she collapses and ends up in a hospital. Not exactly a poster girl for physical and mental health.

[samran]

"my fiancee has weak health (she weighs 33kg and is very thin!)."

Unless she's a meter tall, we know she's very thin.

Part of the problem might be her apparent health situation.  As you mentioned, if she doesn't see you for a couple days, she collapses and ends up in a hospital.  Not exactly a poster girl for physical and mental health.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would recommend getting travel insurance for her too. If there is a likelihood that she will become a liability to the NHS, or that it even appears to the ECO that you may be wanting to take her there for medical treatment, then its going to be hard...

See here

[the scouser]

Simon,

What exactly happened at the embassy? Was your g/f:-

1. Sifted out: i.e. was told that an application would be likely to end in refusal and to reapply in November, the consequence being that her application was not accepted; or

2. They've taken in her application and given her an interview date in November.

On the basis of the information you've submitted, it is outrageous if they expect evidence of contact with your g/f when you live together. If her application was not even taken in, I'd go back down to the embassy and insist upon the application being accepted and accompany it with a letter detailing your relationship with a suitable comment about why you're unable to provide evidence of contact with your g/f: something along the lines of, " I live with my girlfriend. I send her neither e-mails nor letters. I, rather, talk to her. I am perfectly willing to tape-record one of our conversations if that is your desire."

Scouse.

PS. If you want me to draft a suitable letter on your behalf, then send me a PM.

[britmaveric]

I'd have to think a letter from landlord stating how long you two have been living together would be sufficient evidence.

[bangkokblue]

I'd have to think a letter from landlord stating how long you two have been living together would be sufficient evidence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quite right, No need for any drama, At this stage anyhow.

[GU22]

I'd go back down to the embassy and insist upon the application being accepted and accompany it with a letter detailing your relationship with a suitable comment about why you're unable to provide evidence of contact with your g/f: something along the lines of, " I live with my girlfriend. I send her neither e-mails nor letters. I, rather, talk to her. I am perfectly willing to tape-record one of our conversations if that is your desire."

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. I have had many dealings with various government departments, both in the course of work and privately. I was even a civil servant for a while (not in the IND). I can assure you that if you approach them and insist they do what you want and make sarcastic comments you will achieve precisely nothing. They will slow down and do the absolute minimum they can get away with. That means, in this case, maintaining the status quo and so having to wait for a November interview. On the other hand if you ask them to do what you want and ask what else they require from you then they are far more likely to co-operate.

Simon, you call the ECO "arrogant." Do you really think you will achieve anything if he thinks the same of you? I know in these circumstances keeping one's cool is difficult, but you must. Lose your temper and you lose the argument.

One catches far more flies with honey than with vinegar!

[the scouser]

When you are sure of your ground there is no harm standing up for yourself. Indeed, in this day and age the civil service has become quite "customer orientated" and if you can politely but firmly highlight your reasons for disagreeing with, in this case, an ECO then you have a better chance of getting a decision reversed. When I was an immigration officer, yes, some people annoyed me, but ultimately, if they qualified for leave to enter then it had to be granted. To behave otherwise would have been unprofessional and self-defeating.

Having said that, it is not apparent what exactly happened to Simon's g/f's application and any reaction has to be informed by those circumstances.

Scouse.

[GU22]

Politely and firmly, yes.

Arrogantly and sarcastically, no.

When I was an immigration officer, yes, some people annoyed me, but ultimately, if they qualified for leave to enter then it had to be granted.

Yes, but I bet you never put yourself out for someone who'd annoyed you!

However, I'm sure you did go the extra mile for people you liked.

It's human nature, n'est pas?

[the scouser]

Where an official has erred (and whether one has or not in this matter is yet to be established) it is only reasonable that the offended party be allowed to state why they believe the decision is wrong. I'm not talking about going in all-guns but rather a polite but pointed letter which highlights its relevance. I've found this approach to have been successful on many an occasion, but, ultimately, each individual addresses such things as they see fit, n'est-ce pas ?

Scouse.

[GU22]

Quite, so firm but polite.

('O' level French; failed )

[simon43]

Sorry for not replying for a couple of days - in the back of beyond during the holiday....

Just to pick up on a couple of points, I read nothing in the guidance notes to sponsors that you have to prove a 'romantic' relationship. Indeed, there was a guy at the embassy who was the sponsor of a girl who was simply a friend of his daughter....What does need to be shown is evidence of accomodation, financial means etc for the visitor's stay whilst in the UK. But this was not a fiancee, marriage or settlement visa that she was after.

As for her health, unless she is in dire need of hospital services, I would assume that her state of health is nothing to do with the ECO. My comment was that her general state of wellbeing is not as strong as the average person. And I/she would pay her way if she did need to visit a UK hospital.

My comments about the ECO and translator being arrogant were also the view of my GF, (and I could here/see their conversation). But I never said that either I or my GF were arrogant!! It seems to be a long-standing complaint about some of the staff at this embassy they cannot be bothered to be polite to applicants. My GF told me after the interview that she was amazed how rude they were to her

To put the record straight, her application for a visitor visa was accepted, after we had submitted more documentary evidence of our relationship, but they then invited her to attend an interview in November, citing the lack of documentary evidence of our relationship.

As to when we wanted to visit the UK, this was for later next month! I have to attend a divorce hearing with my UK wife in which my Thai GF is named. We only thought it reasonable that she be allowed to attend and speak for herself at this hearing. (Unfortunately, the ECO did not read any of the documents that we submitted about this matter...)

I have to say that this experience has given both of us both a bad taste in the mouth. I commented to her afterwards that I was very lucky to live in Thailand because my experiences with their immigration/visa departments had been polite, efficient and without problems!

Well, we will attend this interview in November, but we are not really sure what additional evidence of a relationship they hope to find, (bearing in mind that they say that they don't want any more documents). So they will ask questions only?

All this hassle to get a visitor visa!! Hardly worth it really since we are both happy living in Thailand

Simon

[the scouser]

Hi Simon,

What you could do is write to the Entry Clearance Manager, who is the head of the visa section, pointing out that your g/f is cited in the UK divorce proceedings which are due to be heard next month and that an interview in November is therefore pointless. Also provided a copy of the citation if possible. Add that, from the evidence provided, it is apparent that the futures of both you and your g/f are in Thailand (businesses etc) and could the application therefore be decided either on the papers, or an earlier interview be scheduled. I'd hand deliver the letter to the embassy, as that way they can't claim not to have received it.

It's not guaranteed to work but it might just do the trick.

Scouse.

[GU22]

I'm sorry to say this, Simon, but from reading what you have written one thing becomes very clear. The main reason for this fiasco seems to be, I'm afraid, lack of preparation on your part. Did you read the guides on the embassy or UK visas websites before submitting the application? Did you read any of the threads on here?

her application for a visitor visa was accepted, after we had submitted more documentary evidence of our relationship, but they then invited her to attend an interview in November, citing the lack of documentary evidence of our relationship............but we are not really sure what additional evidence of a relationship they hope to find, (bearing in mind that they say that they don't want any more documents). So they will ask questions only?

Had you submitted all the documents initially it is highly probable that the visa would have been issued that day or the next. As you did not they had to ask for more. I don't know why they could not then peruse the extra documents there and then, maybe time pressures. The visa section in Bangkok is very busy and they could have simply run out of time. They will go through the extra documents before the interview, and then ask whatever questions they need in order to clarify any outstanding or unclear issues.

I read nothing in the guidance notes to sponsors that you have to prove a 'romantic' relationship. Indeed, there was a guy at the embassy who was the sponsor of a girl who was simply a friend of his daughter

From the guidance notes

If the visit is for a holiday and you are a relative or a friend, a letter of sponsorship explaining your relationship to the applicant and why the visit is taking place at this particular time may be helpful.

Did you provide such a letter? There is nothing in the guidence notes, or indeed the immigration rules to say " that you have to prove a 'romantic' relationship" but if you are sponsoring a visitor you do have to prove some sort of relationship! Also, if you had included a letter, as Scouse says, "pointing out that your g/f is cited in the UK divorce proceedings which are due to be heard next month" then you may well have found that the ECO would have been willing to expedite the matter.

But I never said that either I or my GF were arrogant

Neither has anyone else. I did say that the approach of "insisting" and making sarcastic comments may come across as arrogant, though.

It seems to be a long-standing complaint about some of the staff at this embassy they cannot be bothered to be polite to applicants.

Longstanding among those who are refused due to poorly prepared applications, perhaps. In a recent poll on another forum the majority of respondents said that although they may not agree with the ECO's decision they did feel that they had been treated politely and fairly. Sometimes the manner of a harassed and over worked official can seem somewhat brusque. This can also be seen in the visa section at the Royal Thai Embassy in Kensington! My experience at the MFA would also confirm that even Thai civil servants can sometimes be abrupt!

Simon, if you follow Scouse's advice above then you may be successful. Good luck with that.

Next time, remember that proper preparation prevents poor performance.

[simon43]

GU22 - your seem to quick to jump to the wrong conclusions!

I'm very conversant with the visa requirements, and the details given on the relevant websites.

This is why we spent many hours carefully preparing all the documents that were requested in the application notes and on the websites. Eg - copies of bank statements for her/me, copy of my 3 years of Thai business visas (to indicate that I lived in Thailand), copies of the business ownership documents for her 2 businesses, copies of the UK divorce hearing documents, sponsorship letter from me detailing our relationship and reason for the visit, copies of documents for the houses that I own in the UK to indicate where she would stay........

I will state again! The sponsor of a Visitor Visa is not asked anywhere in the application notes to provide copies of emails, telephone bills, personal photos, romantic xmas cards etc - as we were subsequently asked by the ECO. The sponsor is there to 'sponsor' the applicant, not to marry them!! But we went home and returned with all these romantic photos as requested!!

We included the divorce hearing papers, but the ECO did not bother to read them, nor did he read the covering letter that repeated this information. We were polite throughout the interview.....

So, homework done beforehand, but the ECO and Thai translator seemed to be having a bad day.

I have already contacted the EC Manager. Not a case of sour grapes. It is simply that we both feel that she was treated very unfairly by the ECO.

What annoys us both is that the grounds for granting a visa seemed to have been followed by us, in that the financial requirements looked ok. Additionally, because she owns 2 businesses in Thailand, she has very good reason to return to Thailand after the visit. (We go to Samui tomorrow to conclude a land-purcahse deal where we will build a small hotel for disabled tourists)

Simon

[the scouser]

Certainly, Simon, based on the information you've provided in this forum, it would appear that you have done sufficient to meet the spirit of the immigration rules as they relate to visitors. Speaking as someone who has worked as a visa officer, I can't see what the ECO's issue is. You have shown that your g/f can be maintained and accommodated whilst in the UK and have provided ample evidence of an intention to return to Thailand.

The one thing that strikes me is that, reading between the lines, the ECO was looking to grant the visa as he asked you to return the same day with the extra information. Normal procedure would dictate that an interview date is arranged and the additional stuff is supplied then. Was there something in the additional info that changed the ECO's mind?

Scouse.

[GU22]

Simon,

I can only base my comments on what you have said, and in your original post you said

The interviewing officer told her to come back this lunchtime with more evidence that we lived together.

which indicates that you did not supply everything with the initial application.

I'm very conversant with the visa requirements, and the details given on the relevant websites.

But you don't seem very conversant with the need for a sponsor to show a relationship to the applicant!

From Entry Clearance Statistics 2003-4 (pdf 37k) page 9 you will see that Bangkok dealt with 38,817 applications! They simply do not have the time to deal with every application thoroughly straight away, particularly if the application is incomplete. They will go through everything you have supplied, either before the interview or, if you are fortunate, when the ECM tells them to review it.

IMHO, the ECOs have a very difficult job to do. They usually get it right, but sometimes they get it wrong and genuine applicants are refused while chancers get through. They are only human and so capable of making mistakes, as are we all.

Edit:-

Scouse said

The one thing that strikes me is that, reading between the lines, the ECO was looking to grant the visa as he asked you to return the same day with the extra information. Normal procedure would dictate that an interview date is arranged and the additional stuff is supplied then. Was there something in the additional info that changed the ECO's mind?

Excellent point. Edited July 23, 2005 by GU22

[simon43]

I can't say if there was something in the additional info that made him change his mind because he didn't even look at it!!! We supplied a whole range of photos of us together, me with her family, me with her young daughter (my GF was widowed when her previous husband died in a m/c accident..), valentine and xmas cards from me to her and vice-versa etc, copy of the apartment rental contract, copies of bills in her name and my name with the apartment address, more business documents which had both her and my signatures on them. Well, I could go on and on, but when she spoke to the ECO after lunch he simply said that these documents proved nothing and she would need to return in November for an interview. When she asked what more documents he needed, he replied 'none' - he had all the documents he needed!! (I was within earshot).

So when she returns in November, the reason for her UK visit (re the divorce hearing) will be long gone.

Re the sponsor 'relationship' to the applicant, said relationship could be one of employer, father, friend etc etc, and it need not be a BF or GF. The documents we provided clearly indicated a business relationship and a romantic relationship, and a good reason for her to return back to Thailand.

If I felt we had not done our homework then I would not have contacted the ECM....

Simon

[GU22]

That's a long list! Maybe if you had provided some of it in the first place she would now have a visa.

As Scouse said, he must have been minded to grant the visa or he wouldn't have given you a chance to come back with the documents that day. Something made him change his mind.

It may have been:-

Something about the documents you originally supplied that he hadn't seen before, but had now spotted while you were away.

Something about the extra evidence, but you say he didn't look at it. You seem to have come back with everything but the kitchen sink, maybe too much, so:-

Lack of time, possible that you provided too much for him to go through at that time.

Something else.

All speculation on my part, of course.

It's now in the hands of the ECM, so good luck with that.

[expatinasia]

simon43,

Although you haven't said it clearly, it seems the gist of your story is you've abandoned your family, moved to Thailand, and now living with a Thai woman. You're a real hair shirt of a guy, and I hope that your wife removes your testicles through your wallet. There's at least one other problem - you have contradicted yourself in your own postings. I'm not sure which story you're going to have you GF try to get the UK folks to believe but, I think after 5 minutes with Immigration, she's going to collapse like a house of cards.

[simon43]

Hi expatinasia, you are clearly a squeaky clean guy who has never had any problems in your life Yes, I admit that, after 20 years of living with my UK wife, we 'amicably' separated and I now live in Thailand where I have a new 'wife'. I still get on fine with my UK wife and support her and my kids financially. Does that make me a sh?t? If so, I better join the other million of people who have had some problems...

Not sure about contradicting myself though. Please point out my errors...As for my GF, she was honest throughout in what she told the ECO. We have nothing to hide