Pigs 101 (A Start)

[IsaanAussie]

guys , what about value adding ? i have no idea about pigs but it seems the person doing the value adding is making the bucks and calling the shots ... why not create a small market for your own produce ? just my thoughts ..shoot me down if need be ...

CD,

Your suggestion and that of RS warms me enormously.They are both great ideas that fit the pig industry and a group such as ours. To me the real value is the thought put behind the suggestion.

CD in my case and others we have value added the byJesus out of the farm just to get this far. I make bacon and sausages, I make compost and fertiliser all as value add to the pigs. Revar sells feeds and his considerable vet skills as well as his pigs and pork. We are doing as much as we can.

I thank everyone of the readers that have tried to assist in what amounts to a manipulated market where all independant owners are being eroded.

Thanks guys, it is nice to know that this farming forum is all it is reported to be

[IsaanAussie]

am i missing something or just as green as grass? why dont you pig farmers have your sows produce the piglets? then you would now there quality if only one of the piggeries on this forum produced there own piglets other farmers on here could buy them knowing there getting good quality, not wanting to rattle anyones cage is my idea pie in the sky

i think you are missing something.

to simple put what prices you saw above are "paper" prices. i dont think most of them come across offers near to the above...

i am also in Issan, and the offers around here run around 55-56thb now, not 67!!!

on the other hand can buy piglets for 1300thb, not 1800....

those above numbers at best only to serve about price direction in my opinion, but far from facts for avarage pig farmers.

These prices are set at national level by the Department of Internal Trade with the input of the swine growers association. Just maybe the locals in the village don't check the agreed structure on the internet as often as some of us? I can guarantee you that the large independant farms setup to contract to AgroBiz are well aware. Two months ago the same villages where offered sub 50 baht, maybe they are just a little slow as buyers whilst the market is in their favour?

[cdmtdm]

geez Ian it seems u are so close mate , the hard work has been done , surely a solution is around the corner ..i have been in your position before and my old man kicked me in the arse when i was about to let some fool ruin my hard work ....he told me ...the darkest hour is just before the dawn ... dont give up !!!

where are u mate in Isaan ?

[IsaanAussie]

geez Ian it seems u are so close mate , the hard work has been done , surely a solution is around the corner ..i have been in your position before and my old man kicked me in the arse when i was about to let some fool ruin my hard work ....he told me ...the darkest hour is just before the dawn ... dont give up !!!

where are u mate in Isaan ?

Again your support is obvious thank you!

For me and me only, others can answer for themselves! This is way past just close, hard work done, done, and done again, not a corner in sight, just a step!!! As much as I have put into this,there is a point where exhaustion from accomodating all and working alone means there is no win or lose decisions left... My location is in my profile and there are maps around.

[cdmtdm]

ok mate i understand .... just find it a very sad situation u are in ... i am way in the far nth of isaan.. close to Bung Khan ....

[IsaanAussie]

The shock has worn off. There were no takers for the gilts or Cyril. So now we are just getting on with things. Thank you all for your concern and good wishes but now is time to think more about others on this forum who are more exposed than me. I am going to destock and get all those things that should have been done years ago, attended to, well a lot of them. My operation was meant to be family run, it hasn't been, the fault is mine, anger irrelevant. Has the experience hardened me? Well, how could it not? A severe reality colonic.

But the message is this. Many others have contributed to this topic not just me. Keep it going. You never know, Free Range Isaan Aussie may just surprise you all with the occassional post.

In the meantime, any bagged dry pig manure you have for sale, name your delivered price.

[revar]

the piglets are eating like crazy, are gaining weight rapidly and are very playfull. so I bought another 28 between 4 and 10 kg (20 at 80thb/kg and 8 at 65thb/kg).

Should be able to make a profit on these even if prices drop back to 50.

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[tingtong]

am i missing something or just as green as grass? why dont you pig farmers have your sows produce the piglets? then you would now there quality if only one of the piggeries on this forum produced there own piglets other farmers on here could buy them knowing there getting good quality, not wanting to rattle anyones cage is my idea pie in the sky

i think you are missing something.

to simple put what prices you saw above are "paper" prices. i dont think most of them come across offers near to the above...

i am also in Issan, and the offers around here run around 55-56thb now, not 67!!!

on the other hand can buy piglets for 1300thb, not 1800....

those above numbers at best only to serve about price direction in my opinion, but far from facts for avarage pig farmers.

These prices are set at national level by the Department of Internal Trade with the input of the swine growers association. Just maybe the locals in the village don't check the agreed structure on the internet as often as some of us? I can guarantee you that the large independant farms setup to contract to AgroBiz are well aware. Two months ago the same villages where offered sub 50 baht, maybe they are just a little slow as buyers whilst the market is in their favour?

Anyway, IA, it feels/looks like there is paralel universes when it come to prices...and these universes only merge at one point, that is feed cost...

feed cost seem to be just the same for everyone. (ok, little less maybe for those trully large farmers).

i believe most of us writing here are small scale farms mostly, thus choose to be brave to mention that as such one cant build their biz on the published numbers as long as has to sell on a completely different set of numbers when time comes!

[tingtong]

the piglets are eating like crazy, are gaining weight rapidly and are very playfull. so I bought another 28 between 4 and 10 kg (20 at 80thb/kg and 8 at 65thb/kg).

Should be able to make a profit on these even if prices drop back to 50.

Sent from my GT-S6102 using Thaivisa Connect App

congrats!

you made some great deals!! i am sure there will be good profits on them!

[IsaanAussie]

Anyway, IA, it feels/looks like there is paralel universes when it come to prices...and these universes only merge at one point, that is feed cost...

feed cost seem to be just the same for everyone. (ok, little less maybe for those trully large farmers).

i believe most of us writing here are small scale farms mostly, thus choose to be brave to mention that as such one cant build their biz on the published numbers as long as has to sell on a completely different set of numbers when time comes!

From what I've seen and has been written here in the last weeks, I agree completely. There does seem to be two different pricing structures emerging, one for the "made men" and something less for the rest of us.

The questions you should be asking are

1. Is this really something new for Isaan because of the new investments by the big guys? There have always been large farms but not many. The northeast has been a major pig farming region but made up of SME size farms. Not much change here, but nearer to the new processing facilities the situation appears different.

2. Are they looking after their new contract growers at our expense, or is it just the numbers are now public as growing is being externalised? Maybe the difference is the norm in areas where large corporate farms have traditionally been? I used to live in Nakorn Pathom and many medium/large farms closed down ten years ago after a long period of low prices when corporate farms were being built in neighbouring provinces.

3. The seasonal price pattern seems to have changed to a more stable base, albeit low. What has caused this and will it change?

4. What about the traditional middle men and their role? There used to be a few around here, now none. The local market here is private (funerals etc..) and small slaughter/sell operators. No more pickup trucks with piglets or ten finished pigs in transport boxes. You want to sell to the butchers, you deliver the live pig. Their stock holding is nil and they can be very selective, as there are lots to pick from. They hold the cards.

If there is to be a parallel "universe" permanently, can we survive in it? Just perhaps we have contributed to an imbalance by building larger than normal stys in our areas and produced an oversupply during seasonal consumption lows effectively flattening a market that we over estimated.

Feed is a constant and always has been for me. I have seen 10 and 20 baht per bag incremental increases 2 or 3 times per year ever since I started. To me we are lucky the input crop prices here are as tightly cost controlled as they are. Cost of living increases are a fact of life. On farm production remains the impossible dream competitively. Those of you that can subsidise your own bills by on-selling locally are on the right course. Personally I believe there is an opportunity to produce alternative protein materials and supplement lower cost feed grades thereby reducing the cost.

I stick to my estimate on live prices and say I expect 65 baht to be the best number to stabilise the market. Much less is too marginal, any more induces feast and famine cycles with small players jumping in and out.

As I said earlier I am destocking and as most know mostly for reasons other than market driven. For those of you soldiering on, have a really good look at "your" market. It will be different for everyone. Get to know what is happening, how many wet market vendors are there and how many pigs are they handling, what are the current trends in these numbers? Where are people buying their pork or piglets? Internally, look at your stock individual or batch FCR's against ADG's and work out whether you will make a gain or loss if you hold them any longer. Past 110kg they do not increase per Kg return.

With no disrespect to those lucky enough to be the exception, YOU will have to get these numbers with feet on the street, the wife and family will not know any detail facts and the bamboo telegraph isnt good enough. Thai people talk in terms of what the other person needs or wants to listen to not in facts. Go see for yourself.

[revar]

Anyway, IA, it feels/looks like there is paralel universes when it come to prices...and these universes only merge at one point, that is feed cost...

feed cost seem to be just the same for everyone. (ok, little less maybe for those trully large farmers).

i believe most of us writing here are small scale farms mostly, thus choose to be brave to mention that as such one cant build their biz on the published numbers as long as has to sell on a completely different set of numbers when time comes!

From what I've seen and has been written here in the last weeks, I agree completely. There does seem to be two different pricing structures emerging, one for the "made men" and something less for the rest of us.

The questions you should be asking are

1. Is this really something new for Isaan because of the new investments by the big guys? There have always been large farms but not many. The northeast has been a major pig farming region but made up of SME size farms. Not much change here, but nearer to the new processing facilities the situation appears different.

2. Are they looking after their new contract growers at our expense, or is it just the numbers are now public as growing is being externalised? Maybe the difference is the norm in areas where large corporate farms have traditionally been? I used to live in Nakorn Pathom and many medium/large farms closed down ten years ago after a long period of low prices when corporate farms were being built in neighbouring provinces.

3. The seasonal price pattern seems to have changed to a more stable base, albeit low. What has caused this and will it change?

4. What about the traditional middle men and their role? There used to be a few around here, now none. The local market here is private (funerals etc..) and small slaughter/sell operators. No more pickup trucks with piglets or ten finished pigs in transport boxes. You want to sell to the butchers, you deliver the live pig. Their stock holding is nil and they can be very selective, as there are lots to pick from. They hold the cards.

If there is to be a parallel "universe" permanently, can we survive in it? Just perhaps we have contributed to an imbalance by building larger than normal stys in our areas and produced an oversupply during seasonal consumption lows effectively flattening a market that we over estimated.

Feed is a constant and always has been for me. I have seen 10 and 20 baht per bag incremental increases 2 or 3 times per year ever since I started. To me we are lucky the input crop prices here are as tightly cost controlled as they are. Cost of living increases are a fact of life. On farm production remains the impossible dream competitively. Those of you that can subsidise your own bills by on-selling locally are on the right course. Personally I believe there is an opportunity to produce alternative protein materials and supplement lower cost feed grades thereby reducing the cost.

I stick to my estimate on live prices and say I expect 65 baht to be the best number to stabilise the market. Much less is too marginal, any more induces feast and famine cycles with small players jumping in and out.

As I said earlier I am destocking and as most know mostly for reasons other than market driven. For those of you soldiering on, have a really good look at "your" market. It will be different for everyone. Get to know what is happening, how many wet market vendors are there and how many pigs are they handling, what are the current trends in these numbers? Where are people buying their pork or piglets? Internally, look at your stock individual or batch FCR's against ADG's and work out whether you will make a gain or loss if you hold them any longer. Past 110kg they do not increase per Kg return.

With no disrespect to those lucky enough to be the exception, YOU will have to get these numbers with feet on the street, the wife and family will not know any detail facts and the bamboo telegraph isnt good enough. Thai people talk in terms of what the other person needs or wants to listen to not in facts. Go see for yourself.

Pigsters, listen to IA. He knows his business.

Look at your local markets and try to find a niche(s). then advertise yourself to those buyers. Always be flexible and on the lookout for new profit potential. If you want to survive in thismarket with big farms setting 'low' prices and village pigs paying 10 bath less you need to do a lot of footwork.

I have build a customer base of local butchers who sell out of the back of their pickup truck driving around the village. I did this by driving around a 70km radius looking for these meat sellers amd handing out business cards and showing them examples of my butchered meat. Idid this one day each week for a year and now have a large network and a reputation of quality.

If you buy piglets and cant afford the 100thb/kg standard be there first. I got a call yesterday that new piglets were due to arrive at 1500 from a big farm at my middle-man supplier. I have the flu but jumped in my car and drove there. when I arrived there were already 5 other buyers looking at the pigs and choosing the best ones. /They were sold per kg. I needed 20 and can make a better profit on the small ones when bought by kg so I immediatel marked 20 and offered 80b kg. sold. The others bought the other bigger ones and they were left with 8 piglets, so I offered 2000 for these 8. I always try to buy the 'leftovers' (if they are healty) since the sellers like to sell everything quickly so they don't have to take care of them and/or get new stock in.

Another type of footwork is lobbying with other small local pigraisers not to sell for very low prices. Sharks offered 42 last budist lent but had to go back to 47-50 because there were no sellers. innitially there were people selling at 42 but me and the wife told them not to, promising them to get them a better price if they waited 2 weeks. butchers ran out of stock and locals told them to call my wife to negotiate and refused to talk to them themselves. We managed to get them48 instead of 42. And of course a few bath more for our own higher quality pigs.

Commercial feed prices will rise as they have always done so I see 3 possible routes to follow of you can not depend on funerals, parties, etc.

1) Produce your own feed if you can get the Raw Materials and have the knowledge (cow farmers around here get their feed mixed at the same place they deliver their milk, they can also mix your pig-feed).

I don't know enough yet about feed to go this route at the moment.

2) Get a cheaper brand of feed (and maybe mix it with bran). This is what most locals do.

pigs grow slower and you are competing with locals.

3) Get a top of the line feed, feed ad-lib according to professional system and go for quality. become the cheaper alternative to cp or agricultural office farm but with similar or better quality.

feed costs may be a bit higher but you compensate with higher turnover and a higher selling price then locals. Aim everything at quality. This is the route I am following

Also look at the different costs per per bag. I sell only over 90kg and most over 100 because I take a loss if I sell before. 30kg belac is almost 1000 while the type I use at 90+ kg is 465. (Locals often want to sell their whole batch of 10 with pigs from 70-120 kg. I often go there whem the buyers come and if they offer a low price for the small pigs because they are so small I offer a better price. thats how I get 70kg pigs at around 3000 bath. Feed them properly for 2-3 weeks and collect a nice profit.

Its all a bit like a high stake poker game. You need to put in a lot of work and continiously improve your game to make a profit. Chance plays a large part but if you are good and put in the effort you can make a profit.

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[cdmtdm]

it seems that rearing pigs and fish have one thing in common ...FEED is the key ...both in quality and cost ...thanks for the posts fellas really enjoying it ..

[RedBullHorn]

Feed is almost 80% cost to raise a pig but it is not the key. A pig farmer need to be certain of the type of pigs they have, certified gene from reputable pigglets farm (complete with 6 vaccination shots) or are they having a 4th generation runoff backyard farm obtain by keeping a few 3rd generation as parent stock (not a good practice, 4th generation will not achieve the optimistic growth rate).

Feeding and care for the pigs by passionate farmer is an assurance of their growth. (growth rate are difference individually)

The key to a good business and success depend on - product knowledge, reconnaissance work on logistic, supply and demand, insider management, marketting, reputation, acute business sense, analysis, a sharp eye for detail and perseverance mindset.

Possess all this, one shall be on par with revar and IA... (and me )

[RedBullHorn]

Today i dedicate this post in remembrance and honour to fruity, 1st anniversary... RIP

[IsaanAussie]

Today i dedicate this post in remembrance and honour to fruity, 1st anniversary... RIP

An excellent thought, (but I think it is actually the 3rd anniversary). As an aside, we visited Ed's wife several months ago, she is still at the farm, house and pigs as clean and orderly as ever and making a pretty good effort of it. Ed would be proud..

Just read this to my wife and she responded with a smile and "Darling, where are my shoes?" "Darling, where are my glasses?" "Darling, buri mot!" and we both laughed.

How apt to remember him today with his favourite term about pigs, "Muck or money!"

RIP Mate, too young but gone ..... Best wishes to Sue, Kevin, Richard and Tom

[IsaanAussie]

Just went back to check how long it has been and it is 2 years this month Feb 2011. RIP Fruity.

[RedBullHorn]

Today i dedicate this post in remembrance and honour to fruity, 1st anniversary... RIP

The 2nd anniversary already ?...My mistake... but it didn't feel this long so i thought it was the 1st anniversary...

[jompa67]

Today we should have sell 80 pigs. We had decided the price and pick up in the end of January. Today 1 week later, the price has rise another 2 bath. But, as i expected, they start and played their game. How can u make a deal in Thailand and know it is fair play? Suddenly there is all problem u can think of. They try to push down the price a bit below what we agreed on for last month and we try to rise it. I am so tired of this mentality. My wife tried to find new slaughterhouses by calling 1113 (yellow pages). To my surprise there was no slaughterhouses in the Korat area at all.

I need help. Are there any of you who know how to find slaughterhouses in Thailand? I know there is many of them, but how to find them.

Sharks came back to us in the evening and offering me 61, but they need 2 bath in transport. So i only get 59. Normally we pay 1 bath in transport.

[tingtong]

just venturing to say, if they came back, in my vocab that measn motivated buyers!!

probably if you dig your feet in just the right amount, you can make that 1thb transport, and get 60....

there is no fair play. just play.

[humblefalang]

good morning fellas,

i am thinking of going free range ishhh,

would i be making a mistake in

setting up a wire fence, and shelter a clean place to eat and drink.

and let out all the pigs in there,

i wont breed free range but only let the piglets that are about one month old.

also apparently they can eat grass and vegetable and it probably means feed cost will be cheaper, in the other hand they will grow slower than indoors that's OK with me,

Please guys add you knowledge, experience and comments,

[IsaanAussie]

This is the first free range discussion for a while. I have no direct experience here and have not heard from the few that were supposedly giving it a shot.

[revar]

considered free range in the past but decided against it .

Modern pigs are very easily sunburned and since they can't sweat can get sunstrokes/die from heat. the bigger they get the bigger this risk. In the pens I cool them down with a hose. If going free range you should have several shaded areas which are situated so that the wind cools it down. you would also need places protected from the wind/rain. access to water, etc. also there are bugs, scorpions, snakes to consider. You also need to plan on what to do if there is an infectious dissease. you can't disinfect the dirt. free range can be done but it needs careful preparation of the grazing area. Its not just turning them loose in a rice field.

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[humblefalang]

You are right you cannot just let them loose,

It is a fenced area, there would be shade, plenty, water and clean sleeping place, similar to a pen with a back garden (massive back garden with mud to cover their skins(avoid sunburn) very clean fresh water 24h a day,

Snakes no problem (put a few drips of diesel around the fence snakes hate the smell of it( they will never come close)

Scorpions, 6 years only seen one, not worried.

There would be a semi closed pen in the area no rain no wind,

They smart animals they would learn alone,

Desease: that’s a tricky one even in a farm,

Feed: mostly greens but proper feed once a day.

As I said I am looking into it, I have found on the net some articles about it

Australia and new Zealand seem to have a few free range farms,

My aim is to beat the feed prices but still be in the game, of pig farming,

[IsaanAussie]

Dietary issues will be your largest issue. You have the ground, what about the "greens" as you call them? You cannot replace 2kg of commercial feed with 2 kg of vegetables. What have you planted for them and how are you going to supplement it? A pig will have to eat 3 or 4 times the amount of low protein materials to get its needs fulfilled. In that intake will be more energy needs than the pig can handle, it is too hot to eat that much. Frre range weaning happens naturally as the piglets can adapt to the feed available, that may take 2 or 3 months.

I am not saying it cannot be done but it is far from letting them fend for themselves. The weeds here are not all friendly, some toxic in quantity. Once the crop or fodder has gone in the dry season, nothing is going to grow in the holes where the pigs have scavenged.

If you feed low protein the meat will be fattier.

What breed of pig are you thinking of? Today's hybrids should not be on the list, especially not white ones. In the cooler climates you have talked about, they use heritage breeds that are more tolerant.

[humblefalang]

imagine three plots of land fenced in to three different area,

once they are done with one side open the fence and moved them, get the tractor in redo that last plot, replant

what greens? cabbage, carrots,banana trunks rice lots of green leaf vegetables that you see on Thai dishes everyday,corn, and yes they will be fed normal feed but not as much as what they eat in farm.

of course i cannot just put the fence up today and get it going tomorrow, it needs to be planed,

at the moment i am trying to learn as much as i can

what race? actually am not worried whatever i had in the pens i will put them out side too,

personally i don't think it will be a problem

shade, water,

[COXYATCITY]

Love Pork

Dad joke alert! How do you fit more pigs on your farm? Build a sty-scraper!

23

[tingtong]

i think if you about to grow all that leafy veggies, carrots, etc ...then you better off selling those and buying commercial pig feed from the income....

1 kg carrot sure buy 1 kg pig feed....but wont feed the same your pig .

so, your feed cost supplemented, success!

we also feed along the commercial some banana trunks, kratin, pakbung...they have their greens in the diet, and helps for our bottom line a bit too.

[IsaanAussie]

How about we build up a farm model to test this out?

Think about our recent discussions, for the small player there needs to be an edge, something to make us different.It could well be free range pigs. For me it is one of the few options as I have to resite anyway.

OK I have a three block rice paddy, 5, 4 and 3 rai each.The layout is an "L" shape, the 5 rai forms the upright section on the outside on the "L" and the 4 and 3 the horizontal part underneath. Will that do to start? How would you do it?

[MrChangers]

good morning fellas,

i am thinking of going free range ishhh,

would i be making a mistake in

setting up a wire fence, and shelter a clean place to eat and drink.

and let out all the pigs in there,

i wont breed free range but only let the piglets that are about one month old.

also apparently they can eat grass and vegetable and it probably means feed cost will be cheaper, in the other hand they will grow slower than indoors that's OK with me,

Please guys add you knowledge, experience and comments,

Don't forget a mud hole for the piggy paddling sessions.

[MrChangers]

Well pigsters tomorrow is the day that all the herd goes on holiday (I hope). Had a respectable offer per kilo, though lower than I would have liked, but they will take the lot. I will be taking a break from pigs for a while as I reconsider my approach to the business. There are a few options out there that need closer scrutiny before jumping in.

I was going to retain the the 2 young boars and some guilts but feel I need a bit more time to plan the way forward, rework some of the sty details etc. I like the ideas about natural farming and need to investigate more; along with finding out what my local Mr Shark really does with the pigs and aim to beat him at his own game, some hope I hear you cry. You have not met the tenacious Bulldog Mrs Changers who is worth an army of 007's so Mr Shark will be quizzed, followed, whatever he he.

In the meantime my wife and I are taking a sabbatical, visiting some friends we have not seen in a long time and other pleasantries. Fear not I shall return shortly but will monitor the 101 situation for it's constant detailed update you good people contribute. So exit stage left from me and best wishes all round.

Nat