Pigs 101 (A Start)

[revar]

thanks thoong.

I do assist and get them out by hand if necessary. up to my elbows is common lol. here the problem was simple that the pelvis was too small. we did use medicine to induce labour. it didnt seem to work. now I know they just couldnt get out.

the two the vet git out were delivered using a wire. the third dead one too. with the fourts only the head came out. completely ripped off. this was the next day. piglet was dead already.

oxytocin we use after the third piglet is born.

the mummies were black ones only one over 15cm rest 5_10cm.

vet says people may have been using weedkillers close.

[thoongfoned]

hi, I think the weedkiller reason is a bit of a stab in the dark.

mixed black mummy sized piglets to me means the mum was not happy during the term of pregnancy. a couple of years ago this time of year we lost 40 percent of two months work, approx 450 piglets to this, black mummy piglets, at different sizes. had people come up from Bangkok (company bosses) to have a look. could not get a true answer why we had this problem, other farms over Thailand had similar problems at said time but not at the same level. many ifs and buts, but to me no sure answers. had blood test done on countless animals, even cut some up and checked liver ect..... all results were positive. ie no proplem with animals. we kept the pigs that produced these mummy piglets and still have them in the farm to day, never had this problem with them since.

afew of my wifes friends are having this problem at present, say under 2-3 percent of births, so its not really a big thing, but still something to think about....... my advice has been to decrease the heat in the farm and make the "natural" light brighter at eye level for the pig. means spending a bit of money on extra fan speed and more lights........ having any problem with the normal running of the farm is a pain in the arse and also the pocket.

one last thought did the said mum have any vaccination during her term? I believe that at least 40 days should pass between the application of different vaccines. the wifes herd complies with my thoughts.

I will shut up now, all the best.

[IsaanAussie]

Have a look at parvo virus.

[Surin13]

I agree IsaanAussie I would say most likely Parvo virus by the sounds of it.

[kiwi kev]

Morning pigsters last night the pump waes going on and off so the good wife got up and turned it off when i went to feed pigs first thing i noticed my piglets were out of farrowing cage put them back then fixed water problem started feeding pigs and saw a gilt had got in with my young boar didnt realise that a gilt cycling could be so single minded and destructive lol

[thoongfoned]

I agree IsaanAussie I would say most likely Parvo virus by the sounds of it.

disagree. the vast majority of problems in the farm will be from the management of said farm, not from disease.

[Surin13]

I agree IsaanAussie I would say most likely Parvo virus by the sounds of it.

disagree. the vast majority of problems in the farm will be from the management of said farm, not from disease.

Happy for you to disagree, and would love to see any research/articles that you know of that links heat and light issues to mummified piglets.

Heat stress and lighting normally results in abortion issues not mummified piglets.

The two main causes of mummified piglets are large litters where individuals die due to placental failure/overcrowding of the uterus and the second is infectious disease, this is well documented and researched and I would look at ruling these out before looking for other theories.

Due to the varying size of the mummified piglets its good evidence of progressive disease over a period of time and classic signs of porcine parvovirus.

As as the mummified piglets pigs are smaller then 16cm, its shows they didn't reach 70 days of age and become immuno-competent, another sign pointing towards porcine parvovirus as the cause.

we kept the pigs that produced these mummy piglets and still have them in the farm to day, never had this problem with them since.

Another sign it was most likely porcine parvovirus as once infected they develop an active immunity for the rest of there lives, so it explains why no further issues Edited October 23, 2014 by Surin13

[revar]

gilts were purchased at betagro hybrid 4 months ago and vaccinated.

farm is open to air, situated such that even on days without much wind it keeps cool inside. no artificial lightning used at night. well see what happen w next 2 .

[thoongfoned]

I agree IsaanAussie I would say most likely Parvo virus by the sounds of it.

disagree. the vast majority of problems in the farm will be from the management of said farm, not from disease.

Happy for you to disagree, and would love to see any research/articles that you know of that links heat and light issues to mummified piglets.

Heat stress and lighting normally results in abortion issues not mummified piglets.

The two main causes of mummified piglets are large litters where individuals die due to placental failure/overcrowding of the uterus and the second is infectious disease, this is well documented and researched and I would look at ruling these out before looking for other theories.

Due to the varying size of the mummified piglets its good evidence of progressive disease over a period of time and classic signs of porcine parvovirus.

As as the mummified piglets pigs are smaller then 16cm, its shows they didn't reach 70 days of age and become immuno-competent, another sign pointing towards porcine parvovirus as the cause.

we kept the pigs that produced these mummy piglets and still have them in the farm to day, never had this problem with them since.

Another sign it was most likely porcine parvovirus as once infected they develop an active immunity for the rest of there lives, so it explains why no further issues

hi, yes I agreed with some points mentioned here. yes a large litter size could induce mummified piglets, but I have found that these would be more of a brown bag type and a sort of whitish colour piglet. not black bag black piglet. age-size from say 30 days to almost full term, in some cases. yes after 70 days the immune system will be working.

my comments are from the wife farms experience which I have the pleasure in seeing day in day out........ I mentioned a high percentage of black mummified piglets some time ago in said farm. lucky have good back up from large company. had visit by people that know the pig business xx years ect..... also have access to blood test and in this case even liver test from one of said mums. all tests came back with no signs of any disease present. this was already established during said visit.

the mums did not exhibit the normal signs of a "normal" pregnancy.ie retracted udder, no milk. retracted vagina. I said this before. so this would not lead you in the parvo direction.

pigs in the wild would normally have one litter per year, they are sensitive to the changing of the seasons. the pigs in wifes farm are living in an evap system. so the temp and light are controlled by us. they get the same amount of day light hours all the year round, 14 hours a day, ten hour "night time". this is because said animals work all the time, 2.4 - 2.6 litters per year. "production" if the farm was too dark it would affect the days back into piglet. if the farm was too hot it would again effect the time back to piglet and also the numbers born or general happiness of said animal. stressed, unhappy animals will not produce. to my understanding the mums do not like to be hot, say a max temp of 28c. (air temp) this is Thailand so..........

again we are lucky and can draw on information on a nation wide operation, this can help to set the mind at rest sometimes, also "locally" the wife has many friends who farm the same animals as she and also in the same type of environment as she. this again can help when one farm has a problem, and the rest don't. I will say again: most problems in any farm will be the result of the management! yes if you are unlucky enough to have a disease or two about of course this will course problems, but from my understanding through people that have been in the business for a good amount of time it will be mostly human error. I would say that most educated people would have an inoculation system in place, I know that this is not a fail safe, but you do what you can.........

anyone can google anything, and most of the time you can find similarities between this and that. when you are next ill pick up a medical journal and see if you can pin point the illness. so no I do not have any web pages for you to read, because the list would be endless.

I do not pretend to know a lot about pigs, all I know is through spending time with them and that's not a lot of time at present. afew years ago I would not have even known one end from another..... for me this web board is about helping people with your own ideas and experiences not just google this google that and say it this disease and that. for one it will worry you half to death.

production levels in Thailand are not that high, say if you compare to Denmark... from what im told the genetics of the pigs my wife farms are like the one found in the deep south of America. look at those production levels and see how your farm measures up, just a bit of web reading for you. I think you said you were now farming the dark\black pigs.

please advise on your thoughts of the black mummified piglets we had acouple of years ago and not just stuff you read off the web.

[Surin13]

thoongfoned I am only offering advice based on the information provide, which is rather limited so leads to speculation.

I will offer my opinion on your post, but its a large body of text so apologies if I take something out of context.

but I have found that these would be more of a brown bag type and a sort of whitish colour piglet. not black bag black piglet. age-size from say 30 days to almost full term, in some cases. yes after 70 days the immune system will be working.

the size of the dead piglets simply incidates the time something went wrong, colour will vary depending on time/animal and issue.

Generally porcine parvovirus won't occur in piglets after 70 days as they have depended a immurity to it, but it can as its also associated with stillbirths and weak-born pigs if infection occurs in the later stages of pregnancy. Abortion can also be the result of porcine parvovirus.

This can explain the different colours, but is only general advice without further testing.

had visit by people that know the pig business xx years ect..... also have access to blood test and in this case even liver test from one of said mums. all tests came back with no signs of any disease present. this was already established during said visit

So did the test show the pigs where immured to porcine parvovirus or not, as this is what the test will show?

the mums did not exhibit the normal signs of a "normal" pregnancy.ie retracted udder, no milk. retracted vagina. I said this before. so this would not lead you in the parvo direction.

This is interesting, how many piglets that where born survived from these pigs?

the pigs in wifes farm are living in an evap system. so the temp and light are controlled by us. they get the same amount of day light hours all the year round, 14 hours a day, ten hour "night time". this is because said animals work all the time, 2.4 - 2.6 litters per year. "production" if the farm was too dark it would affect the days back into piglet.

I agree with you here, heat stress and light has major issues with fertility, but thats not what we have been discussing.

[Surin13]

to my understanding the mums do not like to be hot, say a max temp of 28c. (air temp) this is Thailand so..........

I come from a country that far exceeds thailands temps, and heat stress is managed, as I said before its doesn't normally cause mummified piglets, abortions yes.

anyone can google anything, and most of the time you can find similarities between this and that

The internet is a valuable resource, but like anything on there it takes experience and knowledge to understand whats important

so no I do not have any web pages for you to read, because the list would be endless

I can't find any that point to heat stress and lighting issues and sows having mummified piglets.

[Surin13]

I do not pretend to know a lot about pigs, all I know is through spending time with them and that's not a lot of time at present. afew years ago I would not have even known one end from another.....

I am glad you give your opinion on things it all helps, I am not saying you may not be right, but simply that disagree with you and saying look for the most likely reason.

I think you said you were now farming the dark\black pigs.

I think you have confused me with someone else, my family in thailand whop have been farming pigs for over 40 years had some a few years ago but I advised them to get rid of them and introduce farm biosecurity into their farm and they have gotten to the point where there are all most no animals coming into the system, (only 1 supplier that will be made redundant shortly).

I also been around farming all my life (grew up on one and come from a long line of them) and even have a degree in Agriculture which is amusing given my profession, so don't assume that people offering advice are keyboard warriors.

[Surin13]

Sorry for the mutliple post the forum wont allow me to post that many quotes at once

[thoongfoned]

hi, blood test - all I know was that It was good. no disease. not privy to the details only that it was good. about 15 samples taken over two months. the farm has random test as far I can see, 2 or 3 times a year, when all is normal. just get told by our contact with the company good- bad. never had a bad one yet.?

piglets numbers that survived was very small, few born alive but most of those were dead in couple of days. the other mums that had births those two months that were good all had large litters. 15 -17 born alive. good piglets ect.

from what I was told many farms all over Thailand suffered the same problems, but not on our scale. afew people at the mo have the same problem but the percentages are very small.

like I said I could not get any firm answers at the time from company, many if and buts but nothing concrete. the main man was up from bkk but all he would commit to was that It was not a disease problem.

the only things that I could think that would have affected the pigs was the heat, it was hot that summer, and that year we did cut the showering time down each day. we were also on the bio gas for the energy for the fans. since this problem when it hot we use electric for fans, the fans turn a lot quicker hence better air temp. the other possibility was that the vaccinations were to close together. this was discussed at length and now the we have 40 day min between applications. I find that here even the large businesses are very fragmented, each province will do its own thing ect.

just my thoughts and experience. still learning most days and will be for along time to come.

sorry if my writing is abit disjointed I have many children around me.school holiday.

this problem has to date not shown its ugly head again so we will continue in the same vain. this was just over 2 years ago now.

thanks.

[revar]

almost feeling sorry I posted this.

please dont be offended by other comments.

I agree that mist issues are management /hygiene related. more so then virus/bacterial. but the factirs mentioned have mosty been ruled out. but I still appreciate all these comments and will double check . we are all human and mistakes are easily.made. we all here on this forum.to help eachother. lets keep it that way please.

[thoongfoned]

gilts were purchased at betagro hybrid 4 months ago and vaccinated.

farm is open to air, situated such that even on days without much wind it keeps cool inside. no artificial lightning used at night. well see what happen w next 2 .

revar, are betagro gonna give you any help/compensation for the mum pig you lost?

[nutterz64]

Well, after last months disappointment when we lost a gilt and all piglets in birthing we have had a much more pleasant experience this week albeit with a concern about birth weights. We purchased a pregnant LW sow already covered and her daughter, a gilt, that had also been covered. The gilt gave us an easy birth of 12 with 11 live piglets with an average weight of just over 1 kg. I reasoned that this was a relatively large number of piglets for a gilt and thus maybe explained the low birth weight. Yesterday her mother delivered 16 live piglets but very low average weight. The biggest was 1.2 kg and the smallest was only 400grams. Average weight across the 16 was 825 grams. Most are looking pretty strong except the smallest and another that came in at 500 grams.

I am delighted with the number of live piglets but concerned about these birth weights. For the first time we have gone to the expense of formulated Sow feed instead of the Hum (rice bran) or low cost finisher feed that we used in the past. We have another two sows that we have had for a while due to birth in about 4 weeks on this same new diet. I will be watching closely to compare their birth weights compared to what they gave us before. I am wondering if this is a genetic trait of these two or if there is maybe another issue. Both had a body condition score of 3 during most of their gestation period.

We have a batch of 17 almost ready for sale but it seems live hog prices here continue to fall. We got two quotes today. Our regular buyer has dropped from 65 to 55bht per kilo. We have found a potential new buyer nearby offering 62bht but not yet sure he wants a new source. Looking back at the historical sales figures for Thailand over the last 3 or 4 years I notice that in most years the low of the year is in the last week of October and then starts a steady rise from the first week in November. That does not necessarily mean it will happen again this year. I would love to hear the thoughts of those of you who have been in this industry here over the last few years and to get your "crystal ball" view of the coming weeks.

Cheers

Peter

[nutterz64]

thanks thoong.

I do assist and get them out by hand if necessary. up to my elbows is common lol. here the problem was simple that the pelvis was too small. we did use medicine to induce labour. it didnt seem to work. now I know they just couldnt get out.

the two the vet git out were delivered using a wire. the third dead one too. with the fourts only the head came out. completely ripped off. this was the next day. piglet was dead already.

oxytocin we use after the third piglet is born.

the mummies were black ones only one over 15cm rest 5_10cm.

vet says people may have been using weedkillers close.

Revar and Thoong, this business with the wire I had not heard about before. What is the reason for the wire rather than just latching on with the hand and pulling. When we have had to assist PaPa has just pulled out with his hand. Mind you, he is very small with small hands/arms and I have seen him up to his shoulder recently on a friends sow (enormous old sow) and delivered 12 of 15 that way.

Peter

[slapout]

Pulling with wire would create more injury than many would survive,

Rope can be positioned for pulling in birth assistance and works in many cases,

The best and least destrustive to the new born I have found to be velcro fashioned onto a piece of nylon rope, little injury is incurred and it is not difficult to position by someone with smaller hands and knowing what they are feeling for. Just a method we found by accident when nothing else was avaliable, It also saves time as it can be looped over the shoulder, legs, etc quickly.

[nutterz64]

Pulling with wire would create more injury than many would survive,

Rope can be positioned for pulling in birth assistance and works in many cases,

The best and least destrustive to the new born I have found to be velcro fashioned onto a piece of nylon rope, little injury is incurred and it is not difficult to position by someone with smaller hands and knowing what they are feeling for. Just a method we found by accident when nothing else was avaliable, It also saves time as it can be looped over the shoulder, legs, etc quickly.

Neat trick slapout. Fortunately our farm manager (PaPa) has very small hands and skinny arms and so far we have not needed any tools. We also found that with large piglets still deep in the birth canal that a second person "cocking" the sows leg helps open up the pelvis allowing the hand and piglet to be safely extracted. By this I mean pulling the top hind leg up towards her abdomen.

I just found this pdf on Google and it has some very good practical advise.

http://nationalhogfarmer.com/site-files/nationalhogfarmer.com/files/archive/nationalhogfarmer.com/posters/BirthtoWeaningPoster.pdf

Peter

[revar]

I normally use hands and have no problem. this,was the first time my hand with piglet couldnt get back. rope is alast resort. more about saving the sow than the piglet. I will try the velco next time we got problems.

[thoongfoned]

thanks thoong.

I do assist and get them out by hand if necessary. up to my elbows is common lol. here the problem was simple that the pelvis was too small. we did use medicine to induce labour. it didnt seem to work. now I know they just couldnt get out.

the two the vet git out were delivered using a wire. the third dead one too. with the fourts only the head came out. completely ripped off. this was the next day. piglet was dead already.

oxytocin we use after the third piglet is born.

the mummies were black ones only one over 15cm rest 5_10cm.

vet says people may have been using weedkillers close.

Revar and Thoong, this business with the wire I had not heard about before. What is the reason for the wire rather than just latching on with the hand and pulling. When we have had to assist PaPa has just pulled out with his hand. Mind you, he is very small with small hands/arms and I have seen him up to his shoulder recently on a friends sow (enormous old sow) and delivered 12 of 15 that way.

Peter

hi, wire would be the last resort. say the mum is stuck, piglet can not get out for x reasons. my hands are biggish and I manage to pull 99 percent out if have problem, if not the wife will have a go, if no good, say can not budge the piglet the wife will put the wire into her and then then the mum, then unto the piglet say through the chin or jaw then pull will all my might. only done this afew times in afew years. not the best but it works and the piglet will heal. the Velcro sounds a lot better.

[thoongfoned]

Well, after last months disappointment when we lost a gilt and all piglets in birthing we have had a much more pleasant experience this week albeit with a concern about birth weights. We purchased a pregnant LW sow already covered and her daughter, a gilt, that had also been covered. The gilt gave us an easy birth of 12 with 11 live piglets with an average weight of just over 1 kg. I reasoned that this was a relatively large number of piglets for a gilt and thus maybe explained the low birth weight. Yesterday her mother delivered 16 live piglets but very low average weight. The biggest was 1.2 kg and the smallest was only 400grams. Average weight across the 16 was 825 grams. Most are looking pretty strong except the smallest and another that came in at 500 grams.

I am delighted with the number of live piglets but concerned about these birth weights. For the first time we have gone to the expense of formulated Sow feed instead of the Hum (rice bran) or low cost finisher feed that we used in the past. We have another two sows that we have had for a while due to birth in about 4 weeks on this same new diet. I will be watching closely to compare their birth weights compared to what they gave us before. I am wondering if this is a genetic trait of these two or if there is maybe another issue. Both had a body condition score of 3 during most of their gestation period.

We have a batch of 17 almost ready for sale but it seems live hog prices here continue to fall. We got two quotes today. Our regular buyer has dropped from 65 to 55bht per kilo. We have found a potential new buyer nearby offering 62bht but not yet sure he wants a new source. Looking back at the historical sales figures for Thailand over the last 3 or 4 years I notice that in most years the low of the year is in the last week of October and then starts a steady rise from the first week in November. That does not necessarily mean it will happen again this year. I would love to hear the thoughts of those of you who have been in this industry here over the last few years and to get your "crystal ball" view of the coming weeks.

Cheers

Peter

my two cents worth.. have about 10 to 15 gilts giving birth a month, and have been like this for the past year maybe more. born alive if you are getting plus ten its good, but the gilts can also have as many as a sow, if you are lucky, get the timing right. two gave birth yesterday, 11 straight, all alive average kg. 1.7 second 13 alive 1 still born, average kg 1.7-1.8 both quickish births say under 2 hours start to finish. two or three months ago must have had a good batch of gilts cos the average born alive from ten mum in that month was 13.4. kg would have been in the window of 1.6-1.8 again. the best gilt I have seen is 18 straight alive, 1.8kg. excellent pig! over the past year the gilts would have probably given us on average plus 11 on every birth. our timing for AI must be getting better........

those birth weights are very low, 1kg is about as small as you would want, and at that weight the piglet will struggle. if you keep the piglets to finish them yourself see how long it takes to get to ok selling weight coz this interests me. I think it will take say 28 days to get to plus 5kg, then I would imagine it would be slow to say 80kg but that just me guessing coz I have never tried to finish a pig.

look at how much feed you are giving the gilts. time line I use would be. 0 - 28 days 2kg 29 - 85 days 2.5 86 - 110 2.5 - 2.8 111 - 115 2kg on a large pig but normal size 2.2 -2.4. im playing with same amounts at present but about right for the farm as far as I can see. before I was trying to get the birth weights up, using more food, but on the litter of say ten or under I was getting too big a piglet born, long labours ect too many still borns, the average of those piglets would have been 2 kg. from what I can see an average piglet weight of 1.6kg is good.

do you buy the piglet booster stuff. it will help those smaller piglets that you are talking about. I will get the details of this for you in a mo.

[thoongfoned]

just popped into the farm, there is a 6 parity sow giving birth, 3 piglets so far. 1.1 1.3 1.4kgs

piglet instant booster. manufactured by: central soya (france) distributed by: octa memorial co.ltd Bangkok ect....

composition: triglycerides 70% phospholipids 10% amino acids 10% vitamins 10%. its a fluid that you put into the mouth.

[nutterz64]

Thanks thoong. Great information. No I have not used it but I will chase down a supplier .

Cheers

[thedoctor]

Good to see interest in pigs once again

lots of interesting chat and information,

i read on TV last week about thailand getting a contract with russia for pork ,, 5,000 ton i think

Russia cut pork imports with the countries they are having a problem with ,, europe

maybe good for larger producers which might jump the price ??

[pigeonjake]

that will be good if it comes off,

im just getting things reayd to go to angola, so the farm will be in my wifes hands, and she does a great job while im on rotation,

[nutterz64]

Good to see interest in pigs once again

lots of interesting chat and information,

i read on TV last week about thailand getting a contract with russia for pork ,, 5,000 ton i think

Russia cut pork imports with the countries they are having a problem with ,, europe

maybe good for larger producers which might jump the price ??

Had not heard about that one. I read that Russia and China were doing a deal but cannot find anything on Thailand. Would be great if it comes off.

[nutterz64]

Castration.

I would like to hear your thoughts regarding the best age to castrate piglets. The research I have done gives conflicting advice. Some say 3 to 7 days after birth depending how strong they are and other vet sites say 2 to 3 weeks. We have been doing it around day 15 but I am wondering if we should be getting in earlier.

Your thoughts?

[thoongfoned]

Castration.

I would like to hear your thoughts regarding the best age to castrate piglets. The research I have done gives conflicting advice. Some say 3 to 7 days after birth depending how strong they are and other vet sites say 2 to 3 weeks. We have been doing it around day 15 but I am wondering if we should be getting in earlier.

Your thoughts?

hi, we have always been told about from five days onwards..... we tend to do at day six through to eight, sometimes later, it depends how busy the farm is really. even at eight day some piglets I would leave if really small, but most will be strong-big enough by then. the larger the piglet the harder it will be for you and also more pain for them. make sure you use plenty of Tincture Iodine Sahakarn on the wound. always make sure the blade you use is sharp, can buy them by the box for 70 ish baht. ( cheap razor - made in japan) is the type we use, also have other blades but these are much more expensive.

on a side note if you dock the tail do it in the first 24 hour, no feeling yet. again use tincture on the wound.