Tired Of The Farang Lady Diatribe!

[Boo]

there is a big difference to giving your partner the occasional ego boost (which we all do) but having to constantly reassure someone to make them feel better about themselves is a completly different story.

And yes, I find this argument ridiculous too but you will very rarely see the women of this forum make derogatory comments about the western men on here ( & there are many we COULD make) whilst disucussing a completly unrelated subject but it is a frequent occurance by some of the men on here, so you have to ask who has the most problems, the men I think as I am too busy or too uninterested to bother commenting about them in the first place but will post on a topic like this to stand up for myself.

[WhiteShiva]

there is a big difference to giving your partner the occasional ego boost (which we all do) but having to constantly reassure someone to make them feel better about themselves is a completly different story.

And yes, I find this argument ridiculous too but you will very rarely see the women of this forum make derogatory comments about the western men on here ( & there are many we COULD make) whilst disucussing a completly unrelated subject but it is a frequent occurance by some of the men on here, so you have to ask who has the most problems, the men I think as I am too busy or too uninterested to bother commenting about them in the first place but will post on a topic like this to stand up for myself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Boo - I am all with you. But if you recall where some people go to get their partners from, it should come as no surprise that they are somewhat hostile towards farang females. Put it down to shame, embarrassment, inability to meet women in their own country (which of course it the fault of the women! ), etc.

I am no big fan of aggressive feminists - men & women are different, and to pretend anything else would be silly. Yet we are also equals - and should treat each others as such. I believe the problems with some relationships is that the partners are not willing to give, yet expect to receive - in excess. A recipe for disaster, if you ask me.

The advantage to "paid" relationships is that once the paying is done, there are very few expectations made of the "payee" - which sometimes works for both parties. Some western women, have a big problem with this - personally, I am not quite sure which party to pity. It is not always easy to see who is the hunter and who is the prey........

Unfortunately my own exposure to farang women is rather limited since I came to Asia. With a few noticeable exceptions, I have found farang wives of many expats here to be arrogant b1tches, and I do not have any expat female collegues where I work. As a result, my wife & I tend to hang out with Thai friends, or farang men with Thai girlfriends/wives. I wouldn't mind meeting more farang women (although my wife may have a problem with it! ), but it just doesn't happen much.

[Boo]

I think we are coming from the same place whiteshiva (good name btw)

[kat]

cdnvic  

but rather that I had left my button fly unbuttoned and hadn't noticed. blink.gif

adorable

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Will: Actually I made both of those comments (the one about objectification and the one about variation/categories).

The thing is, race and ethnicities are different categories. I don't want to get hung up on the whole theoretical explanations, so I'll ask this question:

We know this because if or when people say for example that they don't like such and such racial group or ethnicity, it is predjudiced or racist.

Saying that you like partners from an entire racial group is also racial selection. It is more benign, but it is exoticism, which can also be dehumanizing and based on racial assumptions.

I'm not saying that this is what you're doing, or that I have everything figured out, this is just one dialogue that is often discussed among people of color about racial/intercultural issues.

SBK - actually, your post is agreeing with what I said.

[sbk]

I honestly cannot see the problem with receiving and giving your partner a bit of a morale lift every now and then - especially if he/she needs it.  My wife (Thai) makes me feel like the best thing since sliced bread, but is quick to bring me back to reality when needed.   

I decide everything in the marriage - as long as she agrees with me.  Otherwise, she will give in, and yet somehow manage to make me change my mind without really noticing.  It makes for a much more harmoneously relationship than having constant arguments.  We do argue from time to time, but always in a light-hearted way. 

I will never forget two statements my wife made shortly after we married:

While shopping for furniture - and with a straight face: "We will have a happy life together - as long as you do what I say!"  

Having tickeled her, blocked a playful punch in return, only to recieve a really painful pinch on the arm: "Don't fight back - unless you want to get hurt".  

So much for the stereotype doctile, obidient Asian woman.......

I never said you shouldn't give your partner a morale lift sometime, what I do disagree with is both ZZZ's argument and redeyes that a wife is there for ego stroking and morale boosting. Morale lift is far different than ego stroking in my mind. If you aren't certain enough in yourself then no wonder western woman doesn't work out.

And whiteshiva, I have a Thai mother-in-law. I KNOW there is no such thing as a docile submissive asian woman

3. To be taken care of, mainly ego boasting.

Asian women know how easy it is to make a man happy by stroking his ego and they are experts in this,

[Doza]

I really can't be bothered reading ALL the responses to this thread and will just post my own comments here as this issue is close to my heart.

I am a young professional farang male in BKK and I am into farang women - although I am also attracted to Thai women, in fact, women of all nationalities and colour. I don't subscribe to the popular farang female bashing that goes on in this country although I admit some points are relevant just as some that these females raise regarding men are relevant.

Anyhoo, my point is this - you woman are hard to find and you are not easy to meet. I know you will disagree. I have a close group of about 6-10 friends, all around mid/late 20's early 30's who are ALL into farang woman and not at all interested in a relationship with your average Thai woman. Can we find them? Probably yes. Can we meet them easily and be well received? Mostly no. We are all reasonable looking and athletic, professional and smart so generally attractive.

But you go to a pub, club, function and the amount of times a woman has approached and introduced herself to me or any of my friends you could count on one hand. When we approach a girl it's a battle just to get some credibility. Woman are so stand-offish. The same women who say there are no guys in BKK.

I get the impression you all think all guys are hooked up with Thai gf's. It's not true! Just make an effort and be confident in your attractiveness!

[OxfordWill]

I can't believe what I just read.  You have a very troubling viewpoint and maintaining an intelligent dicussion with you would be an impossibility as you feel not all people are allowed to have their own feelings.

I am astounded!

Well then, time for some repetition.

"I’m entitled to my opinions". What rubbish! Whether you are or are not entitled to hold and express an opinion on a subject depends on several factors including whether you have thought long and hard about it, are familiar with the evidence, and if you can handle any objections raised. As a rational being, you are entitled to think for yourself, and to try to arrive at comfortable view for yourself. This is a right to think for yourself, to form your own opinion – it is not a right to affirm and defend any old prejudice. I realise you're trying to be helpful, TripxCore, but in reality the attitude you display here is counter-constructive in its relativistic dissasembly of any progression this kind of thread may ever have. If you want people to stop getting 'heated' over a subject, the worst thing to do is remind us how easy going we should all be with one another's possible faults/prejudices.

If it is possible I am wrong to think this way about the majority of western females then I want these ladies and others to help me realise this, rather than pander to my potential fault. Conversely, if I am right and the majority of western women need to seriously alter their behaviour then it does me no good to just say 'ah well, they're entitled to their opinions..'

TripX - You need to explain why this view troubles you, to the extent that you would go so far as to deny me conversation with you. Having read it, if you still have a problem with it, you need to explain what that problem is instead of just insulting me. You'll find I do intelligent discussion quite well, it's you that is offering nothing to go on.

Kat - I personally see no difference in the amount of dehumanisation when we say 'I want a blonde girl' and when we say 'I want an asian looking girl.' What you seem to be talking about is an alterity based on more than physical appearance. If that's so then we're actually talking about different things and I would happen to agree with you after all.

Edited July 25, 2005 by OxfordWill

[Boo]

Doza, have you & your mates thought about joining one of the tv pissups?

[OxfordWill]

When we approach a girl it's a battle just to get some credibility. Woman are so stand-offish. The same women who say there are no guys in BKK.

[...]

Just make an effort and be confident in your attractiveness!

This is a point I wanted to make earlier and completely forgot - you're absolutely right Doza, this is my experience too, after which I gave up completely.

[WhiteShiva]

And whiteshiva, I have a Thai mother-in-law. I KNOW there is no such thing as a docile submissive asian woman

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I disagree - all Thai women are sweet, submissive, keep their voice down, well behaved.....

.... until they start school.....

[britmaveric]

Dunno my experience with western ladies in LOS has been extremely positive. Very friendly and open. I dare say it wouldnt be a problem finding a westren women in LOS to have a relationship if you so desired. Relationships take effort and they just don't fall in your lap.

[Boo]

britmaveric  Today, 2005-07-25 09:41:45 IP: 132.30.199.8 | Post #131| 

Dunno my experience with western ladies in LOS has been extremely positive. Very friendly and open. I dare say it wouldnt be a problem finding a westren women in LOS to have a relationship if you so desired. Relationships take effort and they just don't fall in your lap. 

wise words Brit, but unfortunatly for the ladies your already spoken for

[niall]

SBK,

Its suddenly occurred to me that I might have met you about 3 years ago.

Do you or did you run trips from Koh Phangan to the other small islands in a long tail boat?

Do you speak Thai with a pronounced Southern accent.

Are you married to a Thai man from the South (which would explain the accent)?

If so I believe we have met.

[Doza]

Boo...

Ummm, I have yeah. I might even pop my head in at this Friday's do. The whole forum frat meet-up type thing is still a little weird for me - as for my mates; well if I told them to come to a party with a bunch of people I met on the internet I would be laughed out of town!

Now I KNOW you are saying 'but that's how you meet people' which is a fair point so I might get along. I'll see...

I also must say I do have farang women friends and have been in a couple of relationships here so I'll concur with britmaveric to a point. I guess it's all about putting yourself in a position to meet them in the first place.

[Boo]

Doza, that wasn't a sarcky comment just wondered if you were even aware of them, I know what you mean though about telling people how you met someone from the net, I have a couple of really good friends now who I met via this forum & when people ask "how did you two meet?" it's cringe time Should def try to make the meet ups though & even if you go along for a look but don't want to introduce yourself, who would know, no one knows what you look like after all

[WhiteShiva]

I think we are coming from the same place whiteshiva (good name btw)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And you have a cute avitar........

[alaina]

I'm glad to see that things have geared down to the, "Lets try and understand" point of the thread.

With Westerners, many things between the sexes indicate that there is indeed a Gender War taking place. It goes beyond dating and into politics and the workplace as well.

Feminism got women the right to vote, the opportunity for careers, maternity leave and redressed how sexual assault is handled. Feminism has set right many injustices and for f*ckwits to take away the term and call it feminazi is incredibly offensive. Not to mention that more than a few feminists happen to be Jewish. (Double whammy.)

Women have historically been under-represented in government, media and in the sciences. Women's perspectives are becoming more prevalent in Western society and this can be a sign that social equity may follow.

The loudest voices and most radical are often the first heard. The Andrea Dworkins of this world, the scientists grasping to prove that women and men are the same and the anti-porn protesters generate discussion followed by media coverage and book sales. Not many people have heard of or read Katie Roiphe or Kathy Young's books that present a much more compassionate and fair view of gender relations.

Many women, thinking women, that I have known understand that the most heard dialogue about women's equality is in some ways deeply flawed. Much of what is out there is written by upper-class academics with a very narrow experience of life. I'd love to see more books by women with working-class and poor backgrounds. Issues of day-to day conversations (and sometimes confrontations) and society's view of gender and sexual harassment are dealt with in a much more real way by these women.

PC has cut off some topics from discussion that need it (in what I believe started as an effort to be compassionate) rape, sexual harassment and gender roles in pornography are just a few examples. While the topics themselves can incite strong feelings, the idea that men can feel a threat of a false allegation or feel shamed because of un-PC desires and can't talk about it does not do either gender any good. (After preview-- that may be too vague, I will clarify if need be.)

But, the backlash exists too. Why did Martha Stewart get villified more than Ken Lay (who did much worse) in the American media? Why is Leona Helmsley treating people like garbage offensive but Donald Trump gets a TV show doing it?

Our bias still needs examination on the Western front and we bring this baggage when we come here. While I have no patience for the kind of guys who "Like 'em bar-foot an' pregnent" I think (or maybe just hope) that there is a middle ground for those of us with some sense in our heads.

[richard10365]

After reading most of the comments of the farang women it became obvious why I prefer Thai women to western women.

I think for many men, the totally self confident, outspoken, career minded, sucessful, educated, and liberated western woman is about as much fun to be with as a mouse is with a hungry rattlesnake.

I would much rather have a woman concerned with taking care of her family than taking care of the store, getting her 2nd degree, working for that big promotion, having meetings with the mayor (who is probably a woman), and worrying if her a$$ is too big from sitting in the office chairs all day.

As fed up as you are of hearing about why we prefer Thai women over western women, we too are tired of hearing Western women complain.

You can't be happy being the center of the universe in the west. You want to come here and control our lives too. Forget it. As far as men are concerned, this is a mans country. Leave us one corner of the world to be happy. Why do you think we are here?

I know some other men will comment on what I have said. Some will say, "I don't agree" or "your opinion stinks". I understand how some men feel they need to be "Politically Correct". So they will side with the females on this subject to appear conservative and nice.

But deep down inside they do agree with me. If they didn't, most would have their wifes former last name as their current last name.

In my opinion, the majority of farang men in Thailand feel this way. Since most of us come from a free country and live in a free country, Thailand, we can think they way we want to think.

If you don't like it, you can always return to the country you came from.

[WhiteShiva]

After reading most of the comments of the farang women it became obvious why I prefer Thai women to western women.

I think for many men, the totally self confident, outspoken, career minded, sucessful, educated, and liberated western woman is about as much fun to be with as a mouse is with a hungry rattlesnake.

I would much rather have a woman concerned with taking care of her family than taking care of the store, getting her 2nd degree, working for that big promotion, having meetings with the mayor (who is probably a woman), and worrying if her a$$ is too big from sitting in the office chairs all day.

As fed up as you are of hearing about why we prefer Thai women over western women, we too are tired of hearing Western women complain.

You can't be happy being the center of the universe in the west. You want to come here and control our lives too. Forget it. As far as men are concerned, this is a mans country. Leave us one corner of the world to be happy. Why do you think we are here?

I know some other men will comment on what I have said. Some will say, "I don't agree" or "your opinion stinks".  I understand how some men feel they need to be "Politically Correct". So they will side with the females on this subject to appear conservative and nice.

But deep down inside they do agree with me. If they didn't, most would have their wifes former last name as their current last name.

In my opinion, the majority of farang men in Thailand feel this way. Since most of us come from a free country and live in a free country, Thailand, we can think they way we want to think.

If you don't like it, you can always return to the country you came from.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I am a man (last time I checked!), I disagree with most of what you wrote, and I am staying!

[alaina]

I would much rather have a woman concerned with taking care of her family than taking care of the store, getting her 2nd degree, working for that big promotion, having meetings with the mayor (who is probably a woman), and worrying if her a$$ is too big from sitting in the office chairs all day.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wondered how long it would take to get an ignorant big butt comment. Ladies, who had page 10 in the pool. Shucks, I had page 3 so I lost my 100 baht.

As fed up as you are of hearing about why we prefer Thai women over western women, we too are tired of hearing Western women complain.

You can't be happy being the center of the universe in the west. You want to come here and control our lives too. Forget it. As far as men are concerned, this is a mans country. Leave us one corner of the world to be happy. Why do you think we are here?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One, I don't remember the OP asking, "Why do men prefer Thai women to Western women?" Somehow, some men think we always are wanting to know their exact preference, which we don't meet along with a PowerPoint presentation outlining their individuial tastes in a woman. It's always enlightening

Two, a "man's country"? Funny, I do see a lot of women about the place.

Three, I had no idea that my purpose as a Western woman moving here was to spoil your happiness. I thought for a moment that it was something I decided for more constructive reasons.

I know some other men will comment on what I have said. Some will say, "I don't agree" or "your opinion stinks".  I understand how some men feel they need to be "Politically Correct". So they will side with the females on this subject to appear conservative and nice.

But deep down inside they do agree with me. If they didn't, most would have their wifes former last name as their current last name.

In my opinion, the majority of farang men in Thailand feel this way. Since most of us come from a free country and live in a free country, Thailand, we can think they way we want to think.

If you don't like it, you can always return to the country you came from.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was under the false impression that men are people with individual opinions. It's good of you to let us know that they really all have the same feelings as you do.

I'm not planning on repatriating, but if you can direct me to Utopia where nobody ever complains or is too deluded to rightfully complain then I'll be on my way. When Thailand becomes a fully first world nation you may need a travel agent as well. (Women's rights is often correlated with such a move.)

[Boon Mee]

I want to hear the bit about 'Docile Asian Women' again!

[sbk]

After reading most of the comments of the farang women it became obvious why I prefer Thai women to western women.

I think for many men, the totally self confident, outspoken, career minded, sucessful, educated, and liberated western woman is about as much fun to be with as a mouse is with a hungry rattlesnake.

I would much rather have a woman concerned with taking care of her family than taking care of the store, getting her 2nd degree, working for that big promotion, having meetings with the mayor (who is probably a woman), and worrying if her a$$ is too big from sitting in the office chairs all day.

As fed up as you are of hearing about why we prefer Thai women over western women, we too are tired of hearing Western women complain.

You can't be happy being the center of the universe in the west. You want to come here and control our lives too. Forget it. As far as men are concerned, this is a mans country. Leave us one corner of the world to be happy. Why do you think we are here?

I know some other men will comment on what I have said. Some will say, "I don't agree" or "your opinion stinks".  I understand how some men feel they need to be "Politically Correct". So they will side with the females on this subject to appear conservative and nice.

But deep down inside they do agree with me. If they didn't, most would have their wifes former last name as their current last name.

In my opinion, the majority of farang men in Thailand feel this way. Since most of us come from a free country and live in a free country, Thailand, we can think they way we want to think.

If you don't like it, you can always return to the country you came from.

Thanks for that thoughtful and insightful response Richard. I'm sure that after 16 years of marriage and nearly 17 years of living in Thailand my husband will understand that I need to return to the US so that men like you can feel more comfortable living here. I'm sure he'll understand that your needs are paramount

Richard, I don't know when was the last time you lived in the west but from what I understand there are very few jobs available that pay a man enough that his wife doesn't need to work. These days, two incomes are necessary in order to cover most costs of having a family. And to be totally honest, most of the Thai marriages I know both spouses need to work in order to support their families. We have 3 women working for us, all have children. All must work in order to feed their families. Two have husbands, neither of whom earn enough money to solely support their families (one has a deadbeat exhusband). How does this fit into your reality?

Pearl, what a great post! It is nice to see someone put some thought into what they say.

[niall]

Hmm... well Pearl thanks us all for staying on thread and then veers off in to a feminazi diatribe.

I will take the bait a little and propose another thread 'what western men in Thailand think of feminazis' where we can slug it out.

The small amount of the bait I will take:

The term feminazi is attributed to US shockjock Howard Stern. Its meaning is too fold:

1. It describes a rigid system of thought control as that practised by the Nazi party.

2. Men are well aware that the major of leading feminazis are Jewish such as Gloria Steinem, you see the term is MEANT to be an insult.

It always amuses me when a feminazi come out with 'well Dworkin is a polemicist' we don't REALLY literally believe what she says. Well why elevate her to iconic status if you don't believe what she says then?

[britmaveric]

After reading most of the comments of the farang women it became obvious why I prefer Thai women to western women.

I think for many men, the totally self confident, outspoken, career minded, sucessful, educated, and liberated western woman is about as much fun to be with as a mouse is with a hungry rattlesnake.

I would much rather have a woman concerned with taking care of her family than taking care of the store, getting her 2nd degree, working for that big promotion, having meetings with the mayor (who is probably a woman), and worrying if her a$$ is too big from sitting in the office chairs all day.

As fed up as you are of hearing about why we prefer Thai women over western women, we too are tired of hearing Western women complain.

You can't be happy being the center of the universe in the west. You want to come here and control our lives too. Forget it. As far as men are concerned, this is a mans country. Leave us one corner of the world to be happy. Why do you think we are here?

I know some other men will comment on what I have said. Some will say, "I don't agree" or "your opinion stinks".  I understand how some men feel they need to be "Politically Correct". So they will side with the females on this subject to appear conservative and nice.

But deep down inside they do agree with me. If they didn't, most would have their wifes former last name as their current last name.

In my opinion, the majority of farang men in Thailand feel this way. Since most of us come from a free country and live in a free country, Thailand, we can think they way we want to think.

If you don't like it, you can always return to the country you came from.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Richard - utter tripe you are spouting. Total &lt;deleted&gt; coming from that mouth of yours.

Thai Visa Wank*r of the Day!!!!

Edited July 25, 2005 by britmaveric

[Boo]

I think for many men, the totally self confident, outspoken, career minded, sucessful, educated, and liberated western woman

And this is the exact reason that we western women are proud of ourselves, but are you suggesting that thai women aren't able to do this??? Where is LC when you need her

And yes, it is a mans country (at the moment) , THAI men that is & the likelyhood that you have any say on what goes on is minimal so best to rethink your plans mate, as if you do manage to get a thai wife, she's gonna be the one holding all the cards......

[WhiteShiva]

Richard, I don't know when was the last time you lived in the west but from what I understand there are very few jobs available that pay a man enough that his wife doesn't need to work. These days, two incomes are necessary in order to cover most costs of having a family. And to be totally honest, most of the Thai marriages I know both spouses need to work in order to support their families. We have 3 women working for us, all have children. All must work in order to feed their families. Two have husbands, neither of whom earn enough money to solely support their families (one has a deadbeat exhusband).  How does this fit into your reality?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess Richard is into very rich ladies who don't have to work, and would much rather stay in the kitchen..............

Yeah - that must be it - probably avoids working girls altogether.......

[niall]

'if you do manage to get a Thai wife, she's gonna be the one holding all the cards'

Well to an extent this does depend on what you mean by 'marriage'. If you mean proper registered with the embassy type marriage then she possibly has access to the UK court system in which case you are screwed and she does indeed hold all the cards, you are also stupid if you let this happen.

If its just the Buddhist ceremony everyone gets pissed variety which is the only one I would ever consider PLUS all your assets are offshore which mine are then I assure you I hold ALL the cards and ALWAYS will.

[Boo]

but then that would be your girlfriend not your wife, i'm talking legally & also with regard to having any choice or rights in this country as well as land owndership & visa status.

[niall]

Well according to Buddha she would be my wife, its only the Thai and UK governments who would consider her to be my girlfriend and I don't care about them.

Also, as far as I know 'legally' marrying a Thai gives me no more rights in any sphere including land ownership or visa matters than if I'm not married so I rather miss your point.

[alaina]

Hmm... well Pearl thanks us all for staying on thread and then veers off in to a feminazi diatribe.

I will take the bait a little and propose another thread 'what western men in Thailand think of feminazis' where we can slug it out.

The small amount of the bait I will take:

The term feminazi is attributed to US shockjock Howard Stern.  Its meaning is too fold:

1.  It describes a rigid system of thought control as that practised by the Nazi party.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From less than 30 seconds on Google to Wixpedia:

The term was popularized by prominent broadcaster Rush Limbaugh, who credited his friend Tom Hazlett, a professor of economics at the University of California, Davis, with coining the term.

It's a pop and thoughtless term for those too "rigid" to engage in a real dialogue. Heard of Goodwin's law?

The terms Gender War and feminazi are very polemic terms and trying to reach an agreement in defining them is also not conducive to discussion. You also missed the parts of my post where I try and reach out and bridge the gap between (reasonable) people.

2.  Men are well aware that the major of leading feminazis are Jewish such as Gloria Steinem, you see the term is MEANT to be an insult.

It always amuses me when a feminazi come out with 'well Dworkin is a polemicist' we don't REALLY literally believe what she says.  Well why elevate her to iconic status if you don't believe what she says then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I usually take "nazi" as a compliment. I am usually trying to advocate for social justice or mutual understanding when someone who can't even Google comes along and corrects my mistake.

Have you ever even read Dworkin? It is so absurd yet Rush and his buddies were too stupid to get that bashing the absurdity of it that they sold her books. I don't know of anybody in academia that really takes her seriously at all or anybody else who read her and didn't dislike the tone. She rarely appeared in public and her "iconic" status is almost like looking at a car crash. And that's coming from a women's college graduate.