Tired Of The Farang Lady Diatribe!

[sbk]

the post i  stated about man hunting etc is meant to be now the man works.

as with yourself my father after marriage was the only wage earner and thing were tight.

but what this 'old' way of thinking did was to bring up 5 children with respect for their elders an appreciation of working for your money.

what we have now is children expecting things on a plate not wanting to work and no respect for anything apart from themselves this is not all kids but believe me it is the majority.

this i put down to everybody overplaying this equal rights bullsh+t, we have always been equal but some take things to the exteme which directly brings me back on topic.

thai women seem agree with this way of thinking thats why falang men and thai women get on better

I am not sure where you live but where I live most of the women either have jobs outside of the home or are required to do some form of work to earn money (one lady has a fried chicken cart). My mother-in-law worked with her husband fishing and then finally in the coconut gardens while her father-in-law and his wife took care of their children. Most of the families I know both parents are working and grandparents take care of the children. My husband thinks the number of working moms here could be as high as 95%. The idea that if you just scrape by the mom doesn't have to work is ridiculous. If your choice is eating or a stay at home mom I figure most families will choose eating.

[kat]

... The thing is, race and ethnicities are different categories.  I don't want to get hung up on the whole theoretical explanations, so I'll ask this question:

We know this because if or when people say for example  that they don't like such and such racial group or ethnicity, it is predjudiced or racist. 

Saying that you like partners from an entire racial group is also racial selection.  It is more benign, but it is exoticism, which can also be dehumanizing and based on racial assumptions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just realized that I never asked my question, and have now forgotten it. However, I am fully reminded that I need to sleep more.

Kat - I personally see no difference in the amount of dehumanisation when we say 'I want a blonde girl' and when we say 'I want an asian looking girl.' What you seem to be talking about is an alterity based on more than physical appearance. If that's so then we're actually talking about different things and I would happen to agree with you after all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I said "can be dehumanizing", such as viewing another group of people as a kind of fetish, or as exotic. And yes, I am talking about "alterity" or exoticism as something more than a physical appearance. Aren't you? All of your comments seem to indicate so.

Didn't you already mention that you were proud of your accomplishments, or was it someone else? Anyway, I've certainly never written it and never said it to anyone. It's the difference in attitude - as a man shouldn't I be less demure than you? Why then do I feel embarassed at the thought of writing that sentence but you do not? Honest questions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why should a man be less demure than a woman? Is there a rulebook somewhere that we are supposed to follow to gain the approval of certain men? Would you like to know my "rule": to be myself at all times, since it is a self that I worked very hard to understand, maintain, and evolve. I think this is similiar to what Boo is maintaining but in a different way.

And sometimes I am shy, sometimes demure, sometimes bold, and sometimes insecure. Sometimes I totally freak out about things that a man has no problem about at all, and vice versa; we complement each other, naturally. Thank the universe or whomever that I grew up in a society where I can have a wider and free range of emotions and responses as a woman. Because I am a NATURAL woman, meaning, I was born that way and to my knowledge have always been one. Chemistry between myself and men that I attract happens naturally - there is no need to add fake emotions and stir. If we are attracted then we are already, ahem, stroking each other's ego.

I'd like to go on, but I have commented so much on this topic in different threads and forums, and have seen the same points raised repeatedly, that I fell like I am in some kind of reverberating echo chamber - nothing but the same chants, over and over again.

And plus, I'm tired and really need to go to bed.

[OxfordWill]

Breasts are important for the first few months of life

[..]

you don't need breasts to raise a child. Even in the stone age.

In the stone age we are all talking about (i.e. not one still around today), breasts were vital, the baby simply didnt survive without them. Neolithic women had the breasts (sorry, Brit, but you know what I mean..) and neolithic children didn't live without them being around to suckle on.

Well I didn't write the other citation but whether or not the traditionalist view of gender roles is fallacious, or not, is absolutely not a closed debate. It is however, one of those debates where pretty much all the experts agree and then you have a few hangers-on who occassionally throw a spanner into the works which then takes the experts a short time to overcome before moving on again. It's not my point though so I shall leave opothai to defend it.

[OxfordWill]

And plus, I'm tired and really need to go to bed.

Didn't you sleep already? Try to ignore all this rubbish and hit the pillow! If you want my reply Ill do it but it sounds like you're actually asking me not to!

[Boo]

I wonder if a number of farang husbands of thai women in LOS have a distorted view of other thai women & their roles in the home, as we have heard that most of them can afford afford for their wives /gf's to not work, which is great for them & their partner if she wants to stay at home but the average thai family does need another income as well & as sbk pointed out, grandparents are one of the main carers of children in Thailand??? Interesting topic that

[Boon Mee]

... The thing is, race and ethnicities are different categories.  I don't want to get hung up on the whole theoretical explanations, so I'll ask this question:

We know this because if or when people say for example  that they don't like such and such racial group or ethnicity, it is predjudiced or racist. 

Saying that you like partners from an entire racial group is also racial selection.  It is more benign, but it is exoticism, which can also be dehumanizing and based on racial assumptions.

I just realized that I never asked my question, and have now forgotten it. However, I am fully reminded that I need to sleep more.

Kat - I personally see no difference in the amount of dehumanisation when we say 'I want a blonde girl' and when we say 'I want an asian looking girl.' What you seem to be talking about is an alterity based on more than physical appearance. If that's so then we're actually talking about different things and I would happen to agree with you after all.

Well, I said "can be dehumanizing", such as viewing another group of people as a kind of fetish, or as exotic. And yes, I am talking about "alterity" or exoticism as something more than a physical appearance. Aren't you? All of your comments seem to indicate so.

Didn't you already mention that you were proud of your accomplishments, or was it someone else? Anyway, I've certainly never written it and never said it to anyone. It's the difference in attitude - as a man shouldn't I be less demure than you? Why then do I feel embarassed at the thought of writing that sentence but you do not? Honest questions.

Why should a man be less demure than a woman? Is there a rulebook somewhere that we are supposed to follow to gain the approval of certain men?

Believe it has to do with the testostorone thing.

Read recently a survey found women in N. America are going off 'Girly Men' and now prefer a less 'demure' man?

[bggg]

This forum has descended into a joke. Not sure I want to be at a social do with you lot the way you go on.

In my opinion you guys like what you like – quiet, non-ambitious, family oriented girls etc etc – and that’s fine. Who cares? But your generalizing of western women makes you appear insecure and jaded. Just get over it. Why talk so much about something that doesn’t interest you?

And you western girls are what you are – possibly hard working, outspoken, confident, driven etc etc – which is fine. If guys don’t want that then who cares? Getting into a slanging match about it with guys who hate what you stand for is pointless.

Doesn’t anybody work around here???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You don't state 'in general'. You say 'you guys'. That includes me. And others like me. I don't like a quiet, non-ambitious, family-oriented gal. I like someone who can bring something to the party, not just a hanger-on. No fun going to bed with a blow-up doll

All the women in my life have been ambitous, and I've always supported them 100%. Nothing makes me feel better than to see someone I care for fly.

Then you quietly state that 'guys', not in general, don't like hard-working, confident, outspoken women. I may be wrong, but I think most guys were saying they don't wanna be beaten up. That goes beyond confident and outspoken.....

What is it about this subject that keeps drawing me in

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't know but find myself checking the topic a lot also

[chuchok]

I wonder if a number of farang husbands of thai women in LOS have a distorted view of other thai women & their roles in the home,  as we have heard that most of them can afford afford for their wives /gf's to not work, which is great for them & their partner if she wants to stay at home but the average thai family does need another income as well & as sbk pointed out, grandparents are one of the main carers of children in Thailand??? Interesting topic that

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then you can start delving into the Human animal and ask the question "why do we need gradparents and why do we live so long"

An answer could be that we need the support of grandparents so that we can better look after our children.Unlike most of the animal kingdom, most humans are dependant on the family to at least 12-18 years old.

In Thailand many grandparents look after kids, because both parents are working etc...In western society, the same could be said as well, except they are called 'babysitters"

That is indeed interesting and another topic again.

[opothai]

the post i  stated about man hunting etc is meant to be now the man works.

as with yourself my father after marriage was the only wage earner and thing were tight.

but what this 'old' way of thinking did was to bring up 5 children with respect for their elders an appreciation of working for your money.

what we have now is children expecting things on a plate not wanting to work and no respect for anything apart from themselves this is not all kids but believe me it is the majority.

this i put down to everybody overplaying this equal rights bullsh+t, we have always been equal but some take things to the exteme which directly brings me back on topic.

thai women seem agree with this way of thinking thats why falang men and thai women get on better

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not sure where you live but where I live most of the women either have jobs outside of the home or are required to do some form of work to earn money (one lady has a fried chicken cart). My mother-in-law worked with her husband fishing and then finally in the coconut gardens while her father-in-law and his wife took care of their children. Most of the families I know both parents are working and grandparents take care of the children. My husband thinks the number of working moms here could be as high as 95%. The idea that if you just scrape by the mom doesn't have to work is ridiculous. If your choice is eating or a stay at home mom I figure most families will choose eating.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what you say i agree with

however in thailand as you say the children are looked after by the grand parents which is great.

i live in england and my grandparents cannot look after the children and i do not believe in farming them out to kindergardens or others.

hence the thai family bonding is very strong and in the west we are losing sight of the importance of families because there seems to be a need for a lot of people to prove their indipendence.

and the women in the west especially the ones of 30+ are far to independant to even think about a family enviroment where as the thai women will, therefore be more compatable

[Boo]

my mum looks after my 7 year old neice evey afternoon after school & my grandmother looked after us, lots of my friends have this arrangement as well, so you could say that the western family bonding is also strong

[TRIPxCORE]

I hijacked these two posts from another thread but thought they fit into the overall thread.

I married a 19 y/o TG 5 years ago. I was 33.

BEST MOVE I EVER MADE IN MY LIFE.

Only downside is she is very jealous and gets homesick for LOS.

Upside is its the 1st woman I can trust, she would take a bullet for me.

SO many guys here in the US tried to steal her away but she angrily tells them

off - like its an insult to her that they thought she would leave her husband.

The key is GET ONE FROM THE COUNTRYSIDE, the poorer the better. The ones

from BKK or any city areas  are tainted.

She dies, i am heading right back upcountry to bag another one.

You should here the stories of my friends here and what they put up with

with their lady farangs. I want to puke. I try to tell them about TGs but

they dont listen. Poor buggers. How can they go on...

best regards

nam

I was dating an Aussie gal in my home country, everything was going ok until she said "what about holidays, what about family, how can we live in a 1 bedroom unit with kids?". This was while I was working 2 jobs and just bought my property. I was proud of my acheivments while she was running me down.

Then I met my Thai wife here in OZ, she couldn't believe that I owned my own car let alone the property. She valued me and everything I had worked for. We were married 4 Months later and last Month we celebrated our 14th. wedding aniversary.

We still live in a 1 bedroom unit, love life and she in fact loves Australia more than Thailand. Would your farang wife let you go away with your mates alone and overseas alone? Would she let you go out when you like wherever you like? Would she peel your mangoes and cut them up for you when you feel like a snack? Would she de bone the fish and give you the nice meaty parts? Would she get the brush out and scrub your joggers when they are dirty? She does this because she loves me and I appreciate it so much. Even after 14 years I think I am so lucky to be married to her.

When we are back in OZ for our 6 Months of the year I am almost repulsed by the farang women. You walk down the street look them in the eye to say hello and they look the other way. It is as if they have some kind of chip on their shoulder. Once there was a group of us travelling in mixed company in Thailand and this rather over weight Aussie girl said to me "can you tell me why all these guys are only interested in these beautiful slim Thai women"? Well if she can't work that out she never will understand. But this is not all about beauty it's about the way they love you and treat you, something farang women can learn a lot about.

As a drinker well that's another story but here in OZ you have to queue for your drinks and then be served a by a lazy bitch who thinks you are taking away her spare relax time, rarely smiles or says thank you. Oh dear, I only got 2 more Months before I'm outa here. As for farang women in Thailand, well aren't they so sweet and beautiful all clutching their boyfriends to keep them from the evil Thai girls. Oh dear get real, farang women? Never again for me.

[dereklev]

I hijacked these two posts from another thread but thought they fit into the overall thread.

She dies, i am heading right back upcountry to bag another one.

I saw this in the other thread and refrained from comment......

This has got to be the rantings of either a true neanderthal or a reject up class twit from the British Empire.....

Certainly not written by someone with the slightest respect for women......

Oops he is an American, well that says it all........

[TRIPxCORE]

Sorry but you don't get off that easily. You've twisted what I actually wrote into something that lets you rant about relativity (again!). Go back and re read it another time, realise that it's nothing to do with assumptions nor whether or not you have a right to form your own views. It's about the expression and advocation/defence of prejudice, and the key is whether it is voiced or not. I've read your posts, you're not unintelligent. No hard feelings but to not correct you would be admitting to your interpretation of my words, which is quite, quite incorrect. You advocate a policy that would destroy constructive thinking. 'I agree with keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of idiots - let's start with type writers.'

I have twisted nothing. You specifically said that people that have not taken enough time with a particular argument to study it, do not have the right to form their own opinion about said argument. Whether the argument at hand is a prejudice or not, a person still has the right to make their own opinion about it, even if you don't agree or like what they have to say.

Yes, it would be nice if every debate always had people involved that were well-versed in the topic at hand thereforeto leading to a more intelligent conversation. Unfortunately, that isn't always the case and you haven't the right to tell a person they cannot participate because you feel they don't know enough about the subject or what they are defending is wrong in your mind(prejudice).

The jist of what I am trying to get at here is that every person has the right to participate in a debate whether you or I like it or not. No matter if we feel they don't know anything about it, they still get to participate. You can choose not to listen to them.

[thaibebop]

Will, I said anthropologists not archaeologists. And if you think "stone age" cultures don't exist today then you need a subscription to National Geographic.  It's really quite cheap, my mom and dad give me a subscription as a xmas present, it arrives on time, every month, fabulous gift!

And sorry, Will, but are you saying breasts are required to raise children???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, I read anthropologists (sort of like philosophers, except without the armchairs, right?).

Stone age cultures absolutely exist today, only not in the Western world, which sort of discounts them from this discussion (what, you mean you think stone age means the same thing irrespective of heritage? I think you need a subscription to NG, its really very good and..)

Yes, breasts are a prerequisite to raising a child in the stone age (unless you don't mind it being dead).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Babies can drink, Will. Make sure whatever you giving them is not dangerous and it's drinkable, they will live. Breasts don't always work.

[Boon Mee]

This thread is going to give 'Rain' a run for its money.

[thaibebop]

To sbk- I wish a had kept the article but I read not to long ago that out of all the countries in Asia, Thailand has the largest female work force. So, your right on the money.

To derveklev- Now, don't go making comments about American bases on one dumb pr1ck. Americans are too diverse for that.

Also, I have a daughter (Thai/white) who come H3ll or high water will be rised with the same "WESTERN" value system that I was taught to believe in. She will be nobody's patsy, make her own decisions, earn her own way, take pride in what she does, and if anyone has a problem with her she will be able to tell them off an intelligent and sharp manner. Just like her Mama. Funny how much Women the world over have in common.

[OxfordWill]

I have twisted nothing.  You specifically said that people that have not taken enough time with a particular argument to study it, do not have the right to form their own opinion about said argument.  Whether the argument at hand is a prejudice or not, a person still has the right to make their own opinion about it, even if you don't agree or like what they have to say. 

Yes, it would be nice if every debate always had people involved that were well-versed in the topic at hand thereforeto leading to a more intelligent conversation.  Unfortunately, that isn't always the case and you haven't the right to tell a person they cannot participate because you feel they don't know enough about the subject or what they are defending is wrong in your mind(prejudice).

The jist of what I am trying to get at here is that every person has the right to participate in a debate whether you or I like it or not.  No matter if we feel they don't know anything about it, they still get to participate.  You can choose not to listen to them.

Ok I wanted to avoid doing this but you've forced me into it.

In my country, and probably in yours, we're entitled legally to believe anything we like, right? Whether we do something about our beliefs is another thing entirely but to hold them - legally, we're fine. Legally, you can express your opinions too, with very few constraints.

But, this isn't all flowery. In some cultures, holding certain opinions can lead to bad consequences, such as in Thailand. You probably find that apalling, coming from America (good guess?). So, with this in mind, you would go a step further and say that everyone has a moral right - a basic right by virtue of being human - to believe whatever we want.

You don't think people should be persecuted for what they believe in or the opinions that they hold. However, when people insist on their right to their opinions, they usually aren't being treated badly, such as being persectued by the state or tortured. Usually, they've run out of things to say or have had their views challenged. You have a problem now because your right to an opinion doesn't conflict with my right to argue that you're wrong. See the conundrum?

By the way, all this is assuming you wish to accomplish something by talking. This was the point I made in one sentence in the original reply to you, which you misunderstood as me saying 'what is the point of THIS discussion' when I actually wrote 'what is the point of discussion?' Notice the important difference.

So what we need is another category outside of law and morality - and we call this logic. Logical rights. They're not easy to have, because they rely on evidence, judgement and above all knowledge.

Let's check out a popular example my lecturers always used; some scientists now suspect that quarks have smaller parts (quarks have always been assumed to be the smallest bits in the world, below even atoms). Now, I don't know about you TripX but I've read very little about quarks. Therefore I know very little about the evidence and nothing about quarks themselves. Am I entitled to have an opinion on the issue of whether or not quarks have smaller parts than previously thought?

Well, if you think it sounds odd to say I do, then you've just contradicted yourself. I have no logical right to a view on this subject. It's this kind of right that actually matters if we are trying to get to the 'truth' behind a discussion (and that is the point, after all - who is right and who is wrong).

Beware of saying things like 'This is all relative'. Just because people have different opinions about thai women no more shows that the topic is subjective than the fact that different people hold different views about astronomy shows that astronomoy is a relative topic. All it might show is that some people are wrong, and some are right.

Ok ok, so I hear you thinking that this is a bad example because it is specialised knowledge and what we're chatting about today is actually about people, and everyone has knowledge to some extent on people, usually quite alot. But this isn't actually the case - when was the last time you heard someone who wouldn't know how to identify a chromosome, telling you whether or not homosexuality was genetic or a product of society? The examples go on and on..when you look beneath the surface you realise how very little rights we have to our opinions, which is why I feel we need to be more critical of those who express them.

Why is it important to be so critical, I hear you begging to write in a reply. Why not just let people say what they want, and you can then ignore them? Well you already asked this so here goes:

What you and I think about this subject can affect other people when they read it. There is no obvious answer as to if Thai or Western girls are actually 'better' but opinions on the subject have already filled more than 14 pages. People act, they behave, based on the things they read, and everything being read can add up to changes in behaviour and thinking. 'Will banning discrimination against gay people damage the traditional family unit?' People vote on the basis of opinions they might read. People give money to organisations after they acquire new information, and this information might come from someones opinion (infact it always does).

With voting, you might argue that democracy will only work best when people actually participate. Well that's true, we need participation but conversely, democracy is useless without well considered opinions. Also, some opinions are downright threatening. If you happen to think that members of "SOME ORGANISATION" tend to always "DO SOMETHING REALLY BAD" (like muslims always blow themselves up) you will probably act as you feel appropriate to that organisation. Whatever the nature of your right to such opinions, it can be just simply wrong to hold them.

Additionally, we all care about truth. To the extent that we give a hoot about truth, we must keep caring about the credentials of our opinions. By abandoning our 'logical rights' and the rights of others we are abandoning that which is most important to us - the truth of whatever we care about.

So..what are we to do about it? Should we never express an opinion until we can be certain we are correct? No, because then we could achieve nothing. What we can do is learn to be aware of what we don't yet know, this way when we are 'caught out' we can learn instead of insist on our rights to an opinion - rights that if permitted could be really dangerous.

Well..that's just my opinion. Congratulations if you got this far and sorry for such a long post.

[thaibebop]

I agree with everything you just said OxfordWill, expect that part about America. We Yanks have really pushed the free speech envople more than anybody, because we know it's not a flower power world. We are trying to make sure that we as Americans can talk about issues, because if not, well quite honstly we;d kill each other. There is so much bad blood here that is a kin to sitting on a bomb. We watch our speech because you saying the wrong thing could get you killed.

It seems to me from the outside no one sees the real America.

[ZZZ]

I do not need anyone for these things as it is but I would be perfectly ok with that if that was the case. We all rely on each other and if you can not trust anyone enough to rely on him that's your problem.

this is quite funny, where in my post do I say that I don't let some one help me as rely upon is the wrong word, I said I don't NEED anyone to help not that I don't accept help if it is offered. Different thing entirely.

I left school at 16 & got married at 28, are you suggesting I should have sat at home & not get a job or tried to advance my life myslef until my husband came along??? How funny, really I am LMAO.

Also until you know me & know the kind of economic background or family life I grew up in them you have no place to put down my pleasure at my abilities or success, what you call bragging is what everyone who knows me considers to be an acheivement. Some people never get to travel overseas & yes that is in the UK too & some can never afford to own their own home, so that fact that I am proud of myself for doing both when a lot of people from my background can't is a good thing IMO, so stuff that in your pipe & smoke it.

I don't really see why this should upset some people so much, quite hilarious really

Well, you did not say or even imply that you did accept help if offered so how could I have known?

Anyway, what is funny is that you do turn things around all the time to be in the right and this one of the things that turns men off western women.

In any case I do want to apologize if anything I have said was taken as an attack on you personally, that was never my intention. This thread is about the general phenomena of western men slagging off western women and I just used some of your comments as examples.

I very much admire your accomplishments and you should be proud of them.

Great point sbk about double standards & so true

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

About those double standards:

If a man is bold a woman could be confident, no need to be bragging.

If man is cutting a woman could be critical, no need to be bitchy.

If a man is pride a woman could display dignity, no need to be arrogant.

Generally this is how it works; men enter a relationship mainly for three reasons:

1. Readily available sex

2. To get the satisfaction of giving protection and security to someone.

3. To be taken care of, mainly ego boasting.

I still standby my initial post.

The later posts in this thread, about staying home or working, reflects on points 2 and 3 above. With the majority of western women working points 2 and 3 are really out the window and as for point 1, well this is Thailand.

[Nam Kao]

MOOOOOO

MOOOOO

[khall64au]

To sbk- I wish a had kept the article but I read not to long ago that out of all the countries in Asia, Thailand has the largest female work force. So, your right on the money.

To derveklev- Now, don't go making comments about American bases on one dumb pr1ck. Americans are too diverse for that.

Also, I have a daughter (Thai/white) who come H3ll or high water will be rised with the same "WESTERN" value system that I was taught to believe in. She will be nobody's patsy, make her own decisions, earn her own way, take pride in what she does, and if anyone has a problem with her she will be able to tell them off an intelligent and sharp manner. Just like her Mama. Funny how much Women the world over have in common.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To Thaibebop:

You tell your daughter " go girl"... and good on you for raising her in such an inspiring and responsible manner.

To anyone else interested:

Going back to my original thread... I attended a dinner party tonight with a wonderful mix of liberal Thai and western guests.

There was a male psychologist from Montreal at the table. He brought up the subject of "psychological wounds" caused by deeply ingrained early experiences, the inability to deal with or forgive and the long-term implications of those who do not address earlier pain.

I brought up my posting here on TV and told the party a broad range of intelligent and far-from-intelligent example responses, including the abusive: "you farang women are all the same and you ruined my life because....."

He said " I rest my case..."

The other guests thought it was totally fascinating and asked for the URL to read about this!

The conversation was cut in half between those men and women who have lived here long-term and those who are merely "visitors".

Tis an interesting topic indeed! One without an end ... so it seems!!!

To Moderators:

Do I win a prize for creating such controversy and awareness amongst TV contributors? Like a FREE TV party for PHUKET members?

Ps. Am guessing Niall gave up his counter news links cos he just can't beat historical fact vs emotional ranting?

[TRIPxCORE]

You have a problem now because your right to an opinion doesn't conflict with my right to argue that you're wrong. See the conundrum?

You can say I am wrong all you want.  I might not believe you but I certainly won't say you can't argue your point even though I think you're wrong.

Let's check out a popular example my lecturers always used; some scientists now suspect that quarks have smaller parts (quarks have always been assumed to be the smallest bits in the world, below even atoms). Now, I don't know about you TripX but I've read very little about quarks. Therefore I know very little about the evidence and nothing about quarks themselves. Am I entitled to have an opinion on the issue of whether or not quarks have smaller parts than previously thought?

Well, if you think it sounds odd to say I do, then you've just contradicted yourself.

I certainly have not contradicted myself because I didn't have a chance to respond to your question yet.

Are you entitled to have an opinion about quarks even though you don't know anything about them?  I would say, yes you are. 

The consequences of someone buying into my opinion for better or worse is irrelevant to me.  Every person must utilize that thing inside their head called a brain to weed out what they feel is pertinent information or not, thats of no concern to me.

Congratulations on such a long post, I would have gotten bored writing half-way through that. 

[OxfordWill]

Congratulations on such a long post, I would have gotten bored writing half-way through that. 

You should see the theses they make me write!

[Jai Dee]

This thread is going to give 'Rain' a run for its money.

I think you're right there Boon Mee...

[OlRedEyes]

Will, I said anthropologists not archaeologists. And if you think "stone age" cultures don't exist today then you need a subscription to National Geographic.  It's really quite cheap, my mom and dad give me a subscription as a xmas present, it arrives on time, every month, fabulous gift!

And sorry, Will, but are you saying breasts are required to raise children???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, I read anthropologists (sort of like philosophers, except without the armchairs, right?).

Stone age cultures absolutely exist today, only not in the Western world, which sort of discounts them from this discussion (what, you mean you think stone age means the same thing irrespective of heritage? I think you need a subscription to NG, its really very good and..)

Yes, breasts are a prerequisite to raising a child in the stone age (unless you don't mind it being dead).

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Babies can drink, Will. Make sure whatever you giving them is not dangerous and it's drinkable, they will live. Breasts don't always work.

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This is getting weirder and weirder

What drinkable sustenance would have been around in the stone age?

[bggg]

In my opinion some of the views stated by some men in this discussion show very poor self esteem on their part. A woman being thrilled that you own your own car or have a 1 bedroom apartment…. Of course if you take a person from a bamboo shack a ghetto apartment may well be a step up. For that she may be grateful and in awe. The same as if you took a woman from the slums of LA or London and brought her to the suburbs to a small ranch home with a garden. I don’t fall all over my husband because he owns a car. I owned several before I met him as well as owned my own house. Does this mean I don’t love and appreciate him??? I love him because of many more important things. He respects me, we both place very high value on our family and children. We discuss and plan our life together considering each others feelings and views. On the surface I am sure a lot of people would think I fit some of the stereotypes spoken here of a western woman. I am strong, confident, capable, independent and outspoken. The reality of our relationship is a very traditional one. Would I let him go traveling with friends alone or out drinking? Of course, however he doesn’t do it very much and if he did I would question what was wrong or missing in our relationship that he felt a desire to be away a lot. We talk together, travel together, party together and continue to build our life together.

I was a single mom for 14 years. What should I have done? Sent my child to live with Grandma and set about pretending I didn’t have a child so I could “Bag” a husband as many Thai women do. Yes I have met several who did just that, and if you asked them they would say no I don’t have any children. It’s a liability when husband searching here. Men leave and women survive.

Most of the women I know are very attentive and caring to their men. Yes western women.

To the poster (can’t remember the name) who is so thrilled that his wife would peel and cut mangos for him, I feel sorry for you, obviously you have never had someone love you before. Then again what goes around comes around and you need to be secure and love yourself before you can truly love another. That’s love another not be impressed with or in awe of another. If you need these things from someone else I don’t believe you have much self confidence to offer in a true relationship.

[chuchok]

Will, I said anthropologists not archaeologists. And if you think "stone age" cultures don't exist today then you need a subscription to National Geographic.  It's really quite cheap, my mom and dad give me a subscription as a xmas present, it arrives on time, every month, fabulous gift!

And sorry, Will, but are you saying breasts are required to raise children???

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Yep, I read anthropologists (sort of like philosophers, except without the armchairs, right?).

Stone age cultures absolutely exist today, only not in the Western world, which sort of discounts them from this discussion (what, you mean you think stone age means the same thing irrespective of heritage? I think you need a subscription to NG, its really very good and..)

Yes, breasts are a prerequisite to raising a child in the stone age (unless you don't mind it being dead).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Babies can drink, Will. Make sure whatever you giving them is not dangerous and it's drinkable, they will live. Breasts don't always work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is getting weirder and weirder

What drinkable sustenance would have been around in the stone age?

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Beer?

[OlRedEyes]

MOOOOOO

MOOOOO

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Great post.

Could you elaborate on this, or are you not qualified to have an opinion

[OlRedEyes]

In my opinion some of the views stated by some men in this discussion show very poor self esteem on their part. A woman being thrilled that you own your own car or have a 1 bedroom apartment…. Of course if you take a person from a bamboo shack a ghetto apartment may well be a step up. For that she may be grateful and in awe. The same as if you took a woman from the slums of LA or London and brought her to the suburbs to a small ranch home with a garden.  I don’t fall all over my husband because he owns a car. I owned several before I met him as well as owned my own house.

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I hear this so often. Never have, but I just wonder what is the basis of this. It normally comes from someone who also espouses to believe in equality and maintains they dont discriminate on the grounds of race, religion and economic class. Yet the thrust is 'Hey, you're a loser coz you took someone poor.'

Another oft' held opinion is the men exploit the girls. Ya sure, you exploit someone by offering them a better life.

Someone said something about *considered* opinions.

The breast thing gets me though. (Never been a boobs man though, don't know why, maybe someones psycho friend can tell me) As far as I can see, girls, there's only one reason you have nice big(ger) boobs (than a man), and it aint to please the Master

Edited July 27, 2005 by OlRedEyes

[Sir Burr]

I think the topic of this thread is just a symptom of a much wider problem.

It is indisputable that in most industrialized countries (Japan and Singapore included) that divorce rates are up, marriages and birth-rates are down. The percentage of the population in a nuclear family has been decreasing and children with a single parent increasing. Why is this?

The example of Singapore is interesting as the government is active in social engineering and the population is relatively small.

Back in the eighties the government espoused "Stop at two" (children). They were worried that the island would get over-populated and everybodies standard of living would go down. If you did have a third child, you would be penalized for it. The third child would not be entitled to any benefits whatsoever.

In the early nineties they realised that the birth rate had collapsed and if nothing was done about it, Singapore's population would go into a permanent decline. They then came out with the slogan "Have five if you can afford it". For the third child, they would give you a cash reward. The cash would go up for each extra child as an incentive to have big families.

This also failed, so the government delved into the problem deeper.

They found that Singaporean women were either delaying marriage, or, forgoing it altogether in favour of their careers. The women who had careers complained that they just didn't have the time to socialize and find a life partner, so, the government came up with the "Love-boat" idea.

The government issued invitations to single men and women in their twenties and early thirties to a party held on a chartered liner which cruised offshore Singapore.

This idea also didn't work. The women complained that they couldn't meet Singaporean men that had the same level of education as themselves.

The government came out with yet another slogan which I can't remember, but it in essence said that marrying a man with less education was OK.

I have many Singaporean male friends and it is an increasing trend that they are going outside of Singapore to find wives. Mainly, Indonesia, Thailand and Taiwan.

When I asked some of my Singaporean male friends why this was, and why they didn't take Singaporean wives, they came out with many of the anti-western woman comments espoused by a few posters on this thread. That the women were too materialistic, that they didn't know how to treat their man. That they were too competitive, that their expectations were too high.

Singaporean women too are looking for life partners from other countries, mainly Europe and Australia as they claim that Singaporean men are immature, chauvinistic and are not interested in their aspirations, wants and emotional needs.

So, I would say that this is not a problem exclusive to just farang women. This problem between the sexes is in all industrialized countries.

Edited July 27, 2005 by Sir Burr