Thai Defense Minister Clarifies Crackdown Of Red-Shirt Rally

[LikeHeat]

They were unnecessary losses. Unfortunately unavoidable.

I look forward to the time when the public is told why those losses were unavoidable.

I am sure you'll never be told the losses were unavoidable simply because they were totally avoidable. All that had to happen was for the Red Shirts to leave and go home since they were in a live fire zone and could be wounded or worse. They chose to stay and I doubt even the most fervent RED supporters will not say the Government forced the people to stay put. The Red Shirts chose to stay and offer cover for the terrorists. I am amazed that people are not able to comprehend that simple warning. Surely you Red Supporters and Red's are not that simple minded that you cannot understand that to be in a dangerous spot could in fact be dangerous. Even small children get the concept of danger.

Was Wat Pathum Wanaram in the Live Fire Zone?

Yes, because apparently the Red Terrorist Snipers had full view of it and they sure made the most of it. No doubt they were trying to make people angry and blame the Government and make it easier to burn and loot. It seems to have worked. Are you brain washed or are you a brain washer? I ask that because nobody could be so stupid unless there was a good excuse.

[Buchholz]

Not sure where you are looking for to review the history, but personally I've found there's a wealth of information available right here on the forum. The search engine here isn't half bad and pretty easy to navigate through. As an example, I quickly found this small snippet to hopefully help out in your quest for other answers:

4 patients died from Chulalongkorn Hospital evacuation

BANGKOK (NNT) -- A total of 4 patients of King Chulalongkorn Memorial Hospital have been pronounced dead after being relocated due to the anti-government protesters’ intrusion of the compound last week.

Can we find a snippet that states that the evacuation was the cause of death in all four cases? Unfortunately, I hear people die in hospitals quite frequently.

I realize you must have very limited medical knowledge as otherwise you would know that just simply the act of transferring a patient to another hospital can prove fatal for any number of conditions and ailments. That the transfer was necessitated only because of the invasion by the Reds and not to seek a higher level of care or a medically indicated transfer elsewhere is really all the snippet you need.

Raiding the Chulalongkorn Hospital was one of the biggest debacles in Red history and cost them tons of support amongst the Reds themselves. To see it attempted to be justified nearly six months later is an affront to sensibility that only the most strident of Reds would attempt.

One of the reasons for the across the board condemnation of it was dislodging His Holiness Somdet Phra Nyanasamvara, the Supreme Patriarch of the whole Buddhist faith in Thailand. To the millions of Buddhists in this country, the wanton disregard that could easily jeopardize the health of 96 year-old His Holiness in such a reckless manner was just too dam_n much:

If this particular patient had been one of ones that died, we wouldn't be having this "strident Red attempt" now as the Reds "movement" would have collapsed then and there.

Edited October 22, 2010 by Buchholz

[SomTumTiger]

Not a good move by the Red Shirts and totally wrong. Out of interest the Hospital Director is the same guy that refused to treat injured police during the PAD rallies.Only found one google reference to being armed, according to that source (alone) some red shirts were carrying wooden staves, and no references at all about 4 patients dying from the evacuation. Not denying it, just have totake your word for it.

Not sure where you are looking for to review the history, but personally I've found there's a wealth of information available right here on the forum. The search engine here isn't half bad and pretty easy to navigate through. As an example, I quickly found this small snippet to hopefully help out in your quest for other answers:

4 patients died from Chulalongkorn Hospital evacuation

BANGKOK (NNT) -- A total of 4 patients of King Chulalongkorn Memorial Hospital have been pronounced dead after being relocated due to the anti-government protesters' intrusion of the compound last week.

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__3573715

Hey Look - Amsterdam has a new mouthpiece - Phiphidon! Welcome! Lets see how long you last...:jap:

[LikeHeat]

I fully expect that the public will be told why deaths were necessary.

Still no word after 5 months.

And I expect we will see that the UDD are NO WAY NEAR as innocent as you proport and that they were responsible for the larger part of the civilian deaths.

I'm not purporting that all of the red shirts were innocent. Did you not read my post before replying?

The 28th April friendly fire incident?

Google it, there are plenty of references. A group of troops carrying guns on motorcycles approached an Army Barricade where they were shot at by the Army. There is video footage of the incident broadcast by Spring News on You Tube. It is not the incident you are referring to below.

This policy of non-officials conducting searches on privatepeople has been condemned by both the National Human Rights Commission and the government, who stated that anyone operating further checkpoints would be arrested immediately and the Red Shirts should stay within the boundsof their protest site. Arrests of 14 Red Shirt protesters followed when they were caught operating a checkpoint in Pathum Thani, just north of Bangkok.

Kwanchai Praiphana led some 2,000 Red Shirts to rally in PathumThani in support of their arrested comrades. This was countered by the Queen's Special Air Force unit, who were stationed at Don Muang in northern Bangkok, who told the protesters to return to their rally site or risk beingdispersed forcefully. Violence ensued when the protesters started firing on the army in what CNN reported as a "major gun battle". One soldier was killed by a high-velocity rifle shot to the head; it was confirmedby autopsy that this was not a case of friendly fire and many protesters were arrested. Initial reports claimed Kwanchai was arrested, but then it transpired that he had fled after a telephone warningfrom Peua Thai Party chairman Police Captain Chalerm Yoobamrung (himself with various ties to the Bangkok mafia, including two sons who were acquitted on murder charges after key witnesses refused to testify), stopping fora photo opportunity at McDonald's on the way. Chalerm denied ever calling Kwanchai.

Please, please, please - get your head out the sand and recognise this protest was in no way "peaceful" towards journalists,medics, civilians, etc... you can go on all you like about "not all red shirts were armed" - but, as long as they were intentionally obscuring visibility (burned tyres, firecrackers, etc) and harbouring an armedelement shooting at soldiers (!), you cannot possibly be serious in criticising the army's actions. Below is a collection of some events that were clear (for me, anyway) cases of the UDD's implicit guilt in civilian deaths:

10 April

An M79 grenade was fired from an elevated position at the tent of the army colonel directing the dispersal, killing him and another soldier, and then several black-shirted masked men appeared within the protests armed with M16 assault weapons and M79 grenades launchers. 20 civilians and 5 soldiers died and there were over 800 injuries – although autopsy reports show many of the 25 were killed by high-velocity sniper rifle headshots and other protesters were shot from behind, so many of the deaths were seemingly not caused by the army. Reports and investigations later showed that a third element, widely believed to be these Black Shirt warriors, infiltrated the Red Shirts and caused major bloodshed on both sides; the Red Shirt leaders insist that all deaths were caused by the army.

No Army Sniper Teams? That's the implication I get from your comment "although autopsy reports show many of the 25 were killed by high-velocity sniper rifle headshots and other protesters were shot from behind, so many of the deaths were seemingly not caused by the army".

22 April

Tensions again came to a head when there were M79 grenade attacks seemingly from Lumpini Park where some Red Shirt partisans were been "stationed". The grenades were fired directly at the Multi-coloured Shirt protesters, at Saladaeng skytrain station and at Bangkok Bank HQ on Silom Road. A Res Shirt retired soldier and four others were arrested.

There is still some dispute about where the M79 grenades were fired from.(apart from of course the Deputy P.M who stated that it came from behind the Rama 6 monument)

"when reporters asked where they were shot from, the Bangkok Governor stated that they were shot from a tall place"

ASTV Manager (not known for its Pro-Red stance) quotes a witness as stating that the M79 was fired from the fifth floor of Chulalongkorn Hospital which is not wherethe red shirts are located - the red shirts are on the other side of the road.

Meanwhile DSI DG Tharit Pendgit having interrogated one Mr. Surachai determines that he (Mr Surachai) has confessed to being one of the "men in black" and wasresponsible for 8 seperate grenade/shooting incidents. Busy Man.

One of the incidents being the above grenade attacks. He does not say where he fired the grenades from, in fact he denies being involved with 7 of the 8 incidents(see Dusit Hotel attack)

29 April

A group of armed Red Shirt protesters led by Payap Panket (one of the banned Thai Rak Thai party executives) forcefully entered Chulalongkorn Hospitalnear to the Rajprasong rally site, claiming that the hospital was not neutral and were housing soldiers in preparation for a violent dispersal of the protest. Patients and hospital staff were evacuated immediately after intimidationby the protesters and the hospital was closed down by its directors. Four patients died from the evacuation.

Not a good move by the Red Shirts and totally wrong. Out of interest the Hospital Director is the same guy that refused to treat injured police during the PAD rallies.Only found one google reference to being armed, according to that source (alone) some red shirts were carrying wooden staves, and no references at all about 4 patients dying from the evacuation. Not denying it, just have totake your word for it.

8 May

Two police officers were killed and more police and civilians injured not far from the rally site by drive-by shootings and M79 grenade attacks.

See Mr.Supachai (according to DSI)

15th May

Local news showed gun battles between Red Shirtsand soldiers and a group of Red Shirts hijacking a civilian aid truck (suspecting it was military), with one of the workers being mobbed and shot at pointblank range.

Can't comment on this as I can't find any references

16th May

The night saw RPG attacks on the Dusit Thani hotel where foreign journalists were staying; the staff and guests took shelter in the basement until the army clearedthe area of the attackers.

The one incident that Mr.Supachai admits to. Apparently he fired one RPG at the hotel as he was certain that the shot that killed Sae-Daeng was fired from the hotel?

18th May

Black Shirt snipers were caught on camera for the first time, supporting the CRES' claims that it was not the army's snipers who were shooting civilians randomly.

Ah, so there are Army Snipers.

18th May

The CRES also arrested a Black Shirt guard, Pichet Sukjiddathong (aka Phumkitti), who was General Seh Daeng's closest aide and right-handman. He was accused of terrorism; during interrogation, he stated that Natthawut was the primarily person responsible for ordering violence.

19th May

At the new protest stages at Klong Toey and Bon Kai, which hadseen the most violence, the Red Shirt leaders were playing marching music and telling the protesters to stay where they were and get ready to fight as there was nowhere to run to anymore. Very aggressive Black Shirts were in abundance, not allowing reporters to take any photography. At Din Daeng intersection, protesters had set several buildings on fire; a French journalist had his camera destroyed after he captured images of Red Shirts committingarson.

19th May

The Din Daeng protest stage announced their independence from the rest of the rally and announced they would 'hunt down members of thepress' before torching a police kiosk.

19th May

CentralWorld, Asia's second-largest shopping centre burnt down in the early evening as firefighters were being shot at by the Red Shirts.

Yep, you're most likely paid to spin words and create confusion where the facts are ugly for the Red's. Have you no regard for Thailand? Why do you work to destroy the good and create chaos so certain other people can take advantage of it? If you are unpaid then I really have to question your sanity. I can understand if you do it for money, but would really ask you to find another line of work.

[hanuman1]

Not sure where you are looking for to review the history, but personally I've found there's a wealth of information available right here on the forum. The search engine here isn't half bad and pretty easy to navigate through. As an example, I quickly found this small snippet to hopefully help out in your quest for other answers:

4 patients died from Chulalongkorn Hospital evacuation

BANGKOK (NNT) -- A total of 4 patients of King Chulalongkorn Memorial Hospital have been pronounced dead after being relocated due to the anti-government protesters’ intrusion of the compound last week.

Can we find a snippet that states that the evacuation was the cause of death in all four cases? Unfortunately, I hear people die in hospitals quite frequently.

While I realize you must have very limited medical knowledge as otherwise you would know that just simply the act of transferring a patient to another hospital can prove fatal for any number of conditions and ailments. That the transfer was necessitated only because of the invasion by the Reds and not to seek a higher level of care or a medically indicated transfer elsewhere is really all the snippet you need.

Raiding the Chulalongkorn Hospital was one of the biggest debacles in Red history and cost them tons of support amongst the Reds themselves. To see it attempted to be justified nearly six months later is an affront to sensibility that only the most strident of Reds would attempt.

One of the reasons for the across the board condemnation of it was dislodging His Holiness Somdet Phra Nyanasamvara, the Supreme Patriarch of the whole Buddhist faith in Thailand. To the millions of Buddhists in this country, the wanton disregard that could easily jeopardize the health of 96 year-old His Holiness in such a reckless manner was just too dam_n much:

If this particular patient had been one of ones that died, we wouldn't be having this "strident Red attempt" now as the Reds "movement" would have collapsed then and there.

Sorry to be a bore, but I'm only applying your own standards of verification when I ask for an article snippet which categorically states that the transfers were directly responsible for the deaths.

It should go without saying - but for some reason I feel I need to - that the storming of a hospital is completely unacceptable.

Edited October 22, 2010 by hanuman1

[SergeiY]

I fully expect that the public will be told why deaths were necessary.

Still no word after 5 months.

'why deaths are necessary' is suggesting it was on purpose, premeditated which is nonsense. The government has explained, indicated, etc. a few times that these deaths seemed to be unavoidable. I don't see how this could have been avoided after unknowns started firing almost indiscriminately on the 10th of April and lopped grenades on a colonel and staff. 60+ grenades in three months, only non-red casualties.

Your so-called counter details on various incidents also serves to obfuscate a already confusion situation. Doesn't really have much value.

For instance the quote of 'saw grenate fired from 5th fl. of Chula hospital'. Dr. Pornthip found traces on the 7/8th fl., but can't say for sure the grenades were fired from there. I was lucky on the 22nd, I walked from U Chu Liang, RamaIV to BTS Saladaeng a few hours before the attack. I saw the ugliness of the red barricade and heard them shout.

lets not give so much about Dr. Pornthip, she isn't God,

but do we have any final results of any investigations or not?

And i don't remember the government saying that the death were 'unavoidable'.

[Buchholz]

Not sure where you are looking for to review the history, but personally I've found there's a wealth of information available right here on the forum. The search engine here isn't half bad and pretty easy to navigate through. As an example, I quickly found this small snippet to hopefully help out in your quest for other answers:

4 patients died from Chulalongkorn Hospital evacuation

BANGKOK (NNT) -- A total of 4 patients of King Chulalongkorn Memorial Hospital have been pronounced dead after being relocated due to the anti-government protesters’ intrusion of the compound last week.

Can we find a snippet that states that the evacuation was the cause of death in all four cases? Unfortunately, I hear people die in hospitals quite frequently.

While I realize you must have very limited medical knowledge as otherwise you would know that just simply the act of transferring a patient to another hospital can prove fatal for any number of conditions and ailments. That the transfer was necessitated only because of the invasion by the Reds and not to seek a higher level of care or a medically indicated transfer elsewhere is really all the snippet you need.

Raiding the Chulalongkorn Hospital was one of the biggest debacles in Red history and cost them tons of support amongst the Reds themselves. To see it attempted to be justified nearly six months later is an affront to sensibility that only the most strident of Reds would attempt.

One of the reasons for the across the board condemnation of it was dislodging His Holiness Somdet Phra Nyanasamvara, the Supreme Patriarch of the whole Buddhist faith in Thailand. To the millions of Buddhists in this country, the wanton disregard that could easily jeopardize the health of 96 year-old His Holiness in such a reckless manner was just too dam_n much:

If this particular patient had been one of ones that died, we wouldn't be having this "strident Red attempt" now as the Reds "movement" would have collapsed then and there.

Sorry to be a bore, but I'm only applying your own standards of verification when I ask for an article snippet which categorically states that the transfers were directly responsible for the deaths.

It should go without saying - but for some reason I feel I need to - that the storming of a hospital is completely unacceptable.

You have the verification in front of you. They died as a result of being evacuated necessitated by the Red storming the hospital.

That you are so cavalier in being so dismissive of the role that the Reds played in the deaths of 4 individuals is probably why you justifiably have to back off from the "strident Red attempt" to downplay that role.

It would be terrific if you applied other aspects of my standards such as sincerity.

[nong38]

My impression of the red shirt protests was they had grievences which need to be lloked at ok. Thats what parliament is for, sometimes you dont get the answers you want, you have to accept that, find a way through dialogue. It seemed to me that the red shirts were not out to discuss and negoitiate but to accept our conditions alone. The ngovernment seemed to be making all the concessions, a bit like playing cards see how many you take before you bust, they pushed to hard and ended up with nothingm disrupted peoples lives and inevitably lives were lost. It was avoidable but some chosenot to take that route and then complain that the government was too firm in controlling the situation. I thought the govt should too much restraint I would have gone in as soon as the red shirts took over banned areas, they knew exacctly what they were doing and what road they were going down. Stop fighting, start talking and all sides try and find a way forward for all of Thailand, one day they will all see sense and do so, please let us be positive and encourage them to put the past behind them, forget about individual agendas and move on, start today.

[hyperdimension]

Sorry to be a bore, but I'm only applying your own standards of verification when I ask for an article snippet which categorically states that the transfers were directly responsible for the deaths.

The article states that the causes of death were cancer and obesity. I wouldn't say that the evacuation itself was the direct cause of death, but there is the possibility that the invasion, together with the protesting (noise, gun shots, grenades exploding), would have increased stress levels in the patients. Raised stress levels can adversely affect the health of a sick person. It is very clear that the UDD protesters had no respect or compassion for the sick people in the hospital (including the Supreme Patriarch), and this alone is enough for many people to no longer support the UDD.

The government had the opportunity to use these deaths as propaganda against the UDD, but maybe they feel that it would have been poor form to be whining incessantly about the deaths and blaming the UDD for them.

Edited October 22, 2010 by hyperdimension

[rubl]

I fully expect that the public will be told why deaths were necessary.

Still no word after 5 months.

'why deaths are necessary' is suggesting it was on purpose, premeditated which is nonsense. The government has explained, indicated, etc. a few times that these deaths seemed to be unavoidable. I don't see how this could have been avoided after unknowns started firing almost indiscriminately on the 10th of April and lopped grenades on a colonel and staff. 60+ grenades in three months, only non-red casualties.

Your so-called counter details on various incidents also serves to obfuscate a already confusion situation. Doesn't really have much value.

For instance the quote of 'saw grenate fired from 5th fl. of Chula hospital'. Dr. Pornthip found traces on the 7/8th fl., but can't say for sure the grenades were fired from there. I was lucky on the 22nd, I walked from U Chu Liang, RamaIV to BTS Saladaeng a few hours before the attack. I saw the ugliness of the red barricade and heard them shout.

lets not give so much about Dr. Pornthip, she isn't God,

but do we have any final results of any investigations or not?

And i don't remember the government saying that the death were 'unavoidable'.

Let's not give so much about all of the 'expert' remarks, they're not God. Some of the private suggestions here are much more fun and help to obfuscate the subject.

May I add this one "Human Rights Commission: Government responsible for excessive action". Fits the situation?

Unfortunately they were talking about PM Somchai and Gen. Chavalit

[Buchholz]

May I add this one "Human Rights Commission: Government responsible for excessive action". Fits the situation?

Unfortunately they were talking about PM Somchai and Gen. Chavalit

Speaking of the two disgraced former PM's... how are those criminal charges (as addressed by the Human Rights Commission above) coming along?

Somchai, Chavalit and Patcharawat to face criminal charges

National anti-graft commission will file criminal charges against ex-Premier Somchai Wongsawat, ex-deputy PM Gen Chavalit Yongchaiyudh

and Police Chief Police General Patcharawat Wongsuwan for their involvement in the October 7, 2008 crackdown on yellow shirted protesters.

The Nation - September 7, 2009

[SergeiY]

May I add this one "Human Rights Commission: Government responsible for excessive action". Fits the situation?

Unfortunately they were talking about PM Somchai and Gen. Chavalit

Speaking of the two disgraced former PM's... how are those criminal charges (as addressed by the Human Rights Commission above) coming along?

Somchai, Chavalit and Patcharawat to face criminal charges

National anti-graft commission will file criminal charges against ex-Premier Somchai Wongsawat, ex-deputy PM Gen Chavalit Yongchaiyudh

and Police Chief Police General Patcharawat Wongsuwan for their involvement in the October 7, 2008 crackdown on yellow shirted protesters.

The Nation - September 7, 2009

Any results, any outcome yet? Or at least the charges filled or is there still just only the WILL to do it?

[SergeiY]

lets not give so much about Dr. Pornthip, she isn't God,

but do we have any final results of any investigations or not?

And i don't remember the government saying that the death were 'unavoidable'.

Let's not give so much about all of the 'expert' remarks, they're not God. Some of the private suggestions here are much more fun and help to obfuscate the subject.

May I add this one "Human Rights Commission: Government responsible for excessive action". Fits the situation?

Unfortunately they were talking about PM Somchai and Gen. Chavalit

Cross-check: What does the "Human Rights Commission" says to the April/May 2010 crackdown and what about the emergency decree?

same same or different?

[rubl]

lets not give so much about Dr. Pornthip, she isn't God,

but do we have any final results of any investigations or not?

And i don't remember the government saying that the death were 'unavoidable'.

Let's not give so much about all of the 'expert' remarks, they're not God. Some of the private suggestions here are much more fun and help to obfuscate the subject.

May I add this one "Human Rights Commission: Government responsible for excessive action". Fits the situation?

Unfortunately they were talking about PM Somchai and Gen. Chavalit

Cross-check: What does the "Human Rights Commission" says to the April/May 2010 crackdown and what about the emergency decree?

same same or different?

In case of 2010 the HRC condemned both government and UDD as far as I remember.

Let's not give so much about all of the 'expert' remarks, they're not God. Some of the private suggestions here are much more fun and help to obfuscate the subject.

Edited October 22, 2010 by rubl

[animatic]

May I add this one "Human Rights Commission: Government responsible for excessive action". Fits the situation?

Unfortunately they were talking about PM Somchai and Gen. Chavalit

Speaking of the two disgraced former PM's... how are those criminal charges (as addressed by the Human Rights Commission above) coming along?

Somchai, Chavalit and Patcharawat to face criminal charges

National anti-graft commission will file criminal charges against ex-Premier Somchai Wongsawat, ex-deputy PM Gen Chavalit Yongchaiyudh

and Police Chief Police General Patcharawat Wongsuwan for their involvement in the October 7, 2008 crackdown on yellow shirted protesters.

The Nation - September 7, 2009

Any results, any outcome yet? Or at least the charges filled or is there still just only the WILL to do it?

Or the time to actually do it.

[hanuman1]

Sorry to be a bore, but I'm only applying your own standards of verification when I ask for an article snippet which categorically states that the transfers were directly responsible for the deaths.

The article states that the causes of death were cancer and obesity. I wouldn't say that the evacuation itself was the direct cause of death, but there is the possibility that the invasion, together with the protesting (noise, gun shots, grenades exploding), would have increased stress levels in the patients. Raised stress levels can adversely affect the health of a sick person. It is very clear that the UDD protesters had no respect or compassion for the sick people in the hospital (including the Supreme Patriarch), and this alone is enough for many people to no longer support the UDD.

The government had the opportunity to use these deaths as propaganda against the UDD, but maybe they feel that it would have been poor form to be whining incessantly about the deaths and blaming the UDD for them.

Thanks for this. I accept everything you say here. Although the government hardly needed to use the deaths as propaganda. The act of storming a hospital in itself doesn't need any spin whatsoever to convey it inappropriateness.

[phiphidon]

Not a good move by the Red Shirts and totally wrong. Out of interest the Hospital Director is the same guy that refused to treat injured police during the PAD rallies.Only found one google reference to being armed, according to that source (alone) some red shirts were carrying wooden staves, and no references at all about 4 patients dying from the evacuation. Not denying it, just have totake your word for it.

Not sure where you are looking for to review the history, but personally I've found there's a wealth of information available right here on the forum. The search engine here isn't half bad and pretty easy to navigate through. As an example, I quickly found this small snippet to hopefully help out in your quest for other answers:

4 patients died from Chulalongkorn Hospital evacuation

BANGKOK (NNT) -- A total of 4 patients of King Chulalongkorn Memorial Hospital have been pronounced dead after being relocated due to the anti-government protesters' intrusion of the compound last week.

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__3573715

Smug reply, I understand how to use a search engine. I like to find my information beyond the realms of the thai visa forum. Generally I find that information unbiased, it's usually wise to chose a variety of sources before forming an opinion. RIP to the people involved but 3 deaths from cancer and a heart attack is likely to happen in a hospital. Directly attributable to the relocation?

[rubl]

Smug reply, I understand how to use a search engine. I like to find my information beyond the realms of the thai visa forum. Generally I find that information unbiased, it's usually wise to chose a variety of sources before forming an opinion. RIP to the people involved but 3 deaths from cancer and a heart attack is likely to happen in a hospital. Directly attributable to the relocation?

Any doctor will be prepared to tell you a heart patient needs rest. Protesters storming the hospital, searching for whatever, making noise, threatening doctors and patients, all this is not recommended as part of therapy. The loud noise from outside on a 24-hour/day base is also considered contra-productive. Even for patients who might like the UDD propaganda, or Isan music.

Searching is easy, to find something appropriate less so. And of course only pick out those items which confirm your believes. We're human after all, aren't we ?

[hanuman1]

Not a good move by the Red Shirts and totally wrong. Out of interest the Hospital Director is the same guy that refused to treat injured police during the PAD rallies.Only found one google reference to being armed, according to that source (alone) some red shirts were carrying wooden staves, and no references at all about 4 patients dying from the evacuation. Not denying it, just have totake your word for it.

Not sure where you are looking for to review the history, but personally I've found there's a wealth of information available right here on the forum. The search engine here isn't half bad and pretty easy to navigate through. As an example, I quickly found this small snippet to hopefully help out in your quest for other answers:

4 patients died from Chulalongkorn Hospital evacuation

BANGKOK (NNT) -- A total of 4 patients of King Chulalongkorn Memorial Hospital have been pronounced dead after being relocated due to the anti-government protesters' intrusion of the compound last week.

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__3573715

Smug reply, I understand how to use a search engine. I like to find my information beyond the realms of the thai visa forum. Generally I find that information unbiased, it's usually wise to chose a variety of sources before forming an opinion. RIP to the people involved but 3 deaths from cancer and a heart attack is likely to happen in a hospital. Directly attributable to the relocation?

He probably thinks the Nation didn't spin it enough, so he's giving it a couple of extra twirls himself. Don't get dizzy, B.

The objectivity used to be strong, but now Prejudice is master of this one.

[phiphidon]

I fully expect that the public will be told why deaths were necessary.

Still no word after 5 months.

'why deaths are necessary' is suggesting it was on purpose, premeditated which is nonsense. The government has explained, indicated, etc. a few times that these deaths seemed to be unavoidable. I don't see how this could have been avoided after unknowns started firing almost indiscriminately on the 10th of April and lopped grenades on a colonel and staff. 60+ grenades in three months, only non-red casualties.

Your so-called counter details on various incidents also serves to obfuscate a already confusion situation. Doesn't really have much value.

For instance the quote of 'saw grenate fired from 5th fl. of Chula hospital'. Dr. Pornthip found traces on the 7/8th fl., but can't say for sure the grenades were fired from there. I was lucky on the 22nd, I walked from U Chu Liang, RamaIV to BTS Saladaeng a few hours before the attack. I saw the ugliness of the red barricade and heard them shout.

So am I to accept as gospel that

"Tensions again came to a head when there were M79 grenade attacks seemingly from Lumpini Park where some Red Shirt partisans were been "stationed". The grenades were fired directly at the Multi-coloured Shirt protesters, at Saladaeng skytrain station and at Bangkok Bank HQ on Silom Road"?

Where the grenades "seemingly" came from has been disputed as my examples show. I am not disputing the fact that grenades were fired, I am pointing out that it has not been proved one way or another from where or who fired them. My "counter details" are just pointing out the fact that there are differing viewpoints out there.

Or do I practice self censorship and not query anything?

[rubl]

I fully expect that the public will be told why deaths were necessary.

Still no word after 5 months.

'why deaths are necessary' is suggesting it was on purpose, premeditated which is nonsense. The government has explained, indicated, etc. a few times that these deaths seemed to be unavoidable. I don't see how this could have been avoided after unknowns started firing almost indiscriminately on the 10th of April and lopped grenades on a colonel and staff. 60+ grenades in three months, only non-red casualties.

Your so-called counter details on various incidents also serves to obfuscate a already confusion situation. Doesn't really have much value.

For instance the quote of 'saw grenate fired from 5th fl. of Chula hospital'. Dr. Pornthip found traces on the 7/8th fl., but can't say for sure the grenades were fired from there. I was lucky on the 22nd, I walked from U Chu Liang, RamaIV to BTS Saladaeng a few hours before the attack. I saw the ugliness of the red barricade and heard them shout.

So am I to accept as gospel that

"Tensions again came to a head when there were M79 grenade attacks seemingly from Lumpini Park where some Red Shirt partisans were been "stationed". The grenades were fired directly at the Multi-coloured Shirt protesters, at Saladaeng skytrain station and at Bangkok Bank HQ on Silom Road"?

Where the grenades "seemingly" came from has been disputed as my examples show. I am not disputing the fact that grenades were fired, I am pointing out that it has not been proved one way or another from where or who fired them. My "counter details" are just pointing out the fact that there are differing viewpoints out there.

Or do I practice self censorship and not query anything?

When people start discussing details like where the grenades were fired from, they are distracted from the issue of who fired those M79's. FACT is that with 60+ grenade attacks during March - May 2010 in Bangkok area ONLY non-reds were killed, maimed, injured. this includes army personel, police officers, bystanders.

[monkfish]

Not a good move by the Red Shirts and totally wrong. Out of interest the Hospital Director is the same guy that refused to treat injured police during the PAD rallies.Only found one google reference to being armed, according to that source (alone) some red shirts were carrying wooden staves, and no references at all about 4 patients dying from the evacuation. Not denying it, just have totake your word for it.

Not sure where you are looking for to review the history, but personally I've found there's a wealth of information available right here on the forum. The search engine here isn't half bad and pretty easy to navigate through. As an example, I quickly found this small snippet to hopefully help out in your quest for other answers:

4 patients died from Chulalongkorn Hospital evacuation

BANGKOK (NNT) -- A total of 4 patients of King Chulalongkorn Memorial Hospital have been pronounced dead after being relocated due to the anti-government protesters' intrusion of the compound last week.

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__3573715

Here is another story regarding Chulalong Hospital a few years before involving a different colored shirt

http://www.thaiphotoblogs.com/index.php?blog=5&title=thai-hospitals-refuse-to-treat-injured-p&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

[phiphidon]

Was Wat Pathum Wanaram in the Live Fire Zone?

Yes, because apparently the Red Terrorist Snipers had full view of it and they sure made the most of it. No doubt they were trying to make people angry and blame the Government and make it easier to burn and loot. It seems to have worked. Are you brain washed or are you a brain washer? I ask that because nobody could be so stupid unless there was a good excuse.

I think I'm a fairly sentinent being who makes his own mind up about events, after weighing up what facts and viewpoints / accounts are available, from several sides of the argument. Your comment that

"apparently the Red Terrorist Snipers had full view of it and they sure made the most of it" wasn't one of the facts or accounts that I came across, otherwise that surely would have been included in my own analysis of the event.

Perhaps I'm a brainwasher or brainwashed or stupid, maybe all three, but I do think for myself.

[Insight]

I fully expect that the public will be told why deaths were necessary.

Still no word after 5 months.

'why deaths are necessary' is suggesting it was on purpose, premeditated which is nonsense. The government has explained, indicated, etc. a few times that these deaths seemed to be unavoidable. I don't see how this could have been avoided after unknowns started firing almost indiscriminately on the 10th of April and lopped grenades on a colonel and staff. 60+ grenades in three months, only non-red casualties.

Your so-called counter details on various incidents also serves to obfuscate a already confusion situation. Doesn't really have much value.

For instance the quote of 'saw grenate fired from 5th fl. of Chula hospital'. Dr. Pornthip found traces on the 7/8th fl., but can't say for sure the grenades were fired from there. I was lucky on the 22nd, I walked from U Chu Liang, RamaIV to BTS Saladaeng a few hours before the attack. I saw the ugliness of the red barricade and heard them shout.

So am I to accept as gospel that

"Tensions again came to a head when there were M79 grenade attacks seemingly from Lumpini Park where some Red Shirt partisans were been "stationed". The grenades were fired directly at the Multi-coloured Shirt protesters, at Saladaeng skytrain station and at Bangkok Bank HQ on Silom Road"?

Where the grenades "seemingly" came from has been disputed as my examples show. I am not disputing the fact that grenades were fired, I am pointing out that it has not been proved one way or another from where or who fired them. My "counter details" are just pointing out the fact that there are differing viewpoints out there.

Or do I practice self censorship and not query anything?

When people start discussing details like where the grenades were fired from, they are distracted from the issue of who fired those M79's. FACT is that with 60+ grenade attacks during March - May 2010 in Bangkok area ONLY non-reds were killed, maimed, injured. this includes army personel, police officers, bystanders.

This conversation reminds me of some comments made by one of ThaiVisa's longest reigning trolls from around that period. Compelling stuff, looking back at it now.

Didn't Arisman also make a statement that day to the effect of "tonight we'll be ready for them"...?

[SergeiY]

When people start discussing details like where the grenades were fired from, they are distracted from the issue of who fired those M79's. FACT is that with 60+ grenade attacks during March - May 2010 in Bangkok area ONLY non-reds were killed, maimed, injured. this includes army personel, police officers, bystanders.

How you know?

[rubl]

Here is another story regarding Chulalong Hospital a few years before involving a different colored shirt

http://www.thaiphotoblogs.com/index.php?blog=5&title=thai-hospitals-refuse-to-treat-injured-p&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

For some perspective, from the other English language newspaper (sorry not allowed to post link)

Tuesday October 14, 2008

'Doctors call off threat to refuse medical treatment to police'

Chiang Mai University medical academics ended their position of refusing to provide police officers with medical care as a protest against the police's Oct 7 violent crackdown on anti-government protesters.

Doctors and health professionals did not discriminate in their provision of medical services and still gave attention to the police, said Sattawat Thongsawat, a lecturer in cardiology at the university's faculty of medicine, in a statement.

The about-face came after one member of staff from Maharaj Nakorn Chiang Mai hospital was physically assaulted by protesters from the pro-government Rak Chiang Mai 51 Group on Saturday.

The pro-government group vented its frustration over the doctors' boycott against police following the violent clash between police and supporters of the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) in Bangkok last week.

Yahoo or google for full article.

[phiphidon]

Yep, you're most likely paid to spin words and create confusion where the facts are ugly for the Red's. Have you no regard for Thailand? Why do you work to destroy the good and create chaos so certain other people can take advantage of it? If you are unpaid then I really have to question your sanity. I can understand if you do it for money, but would really ask you to find another line of work.

So now I'm brainwashed, a brain washer, stupid, insane and a paid spin doctor. As I've explained before all the "counter points" I have put forward have come from legitimate sources in the press, are readily available on the internet (so far) and are just that, a counterpoint to the opinion put forward by one of the TV forum members.

It's called a discussion, where various viewpoints are discussed and not dismissed outright.

[rubl]

When people start discussing details like where the grenades were fired from, they are distracted from the issue of who fired those M79's. FACT is that with 60+ grenade attacks during March - May 2010 in Bangkok area ONLY non-reds were killed, maimed, injured. this includes army personel, police officers, bystanders.

How you know?

Which one, the 'distracting', or 'only non-reds' ? You may believe me on my greyish-green eyes, but I won't be offended if you google/yahoo around a bit yourself

[phiphidon]

Smug reply, I understand how to use a search engine. I like to find my information beyond the realms of the thai visa forum. Generally I find that information unbiased, it's usually wise to chose a variety of sources before forming an opinion. RIP to the people involved but 3 deaths from cancer and a heart attack is likely to happen in a hospital. Directly attributable to the relocation?

Any doctor will be prepared to tell you a heart patient needs rest. Protesters storming the hospital, searching for whatever, making noise, threatening doctors and patients, all this is not recommended as part of therapy. The loud noise from outside on a 24-hour/day base is also considered contra-productive. Even for patients who might like the UDD propaganda, or Isan music.

Searching is easy, to find something appropriate less so. And of course only pick out those items which confirm your believes. We're human after all, aren't we ?

Please see my post with regard to a discussion. I see your point and and agree , it doesn't make any of my other counter points any less relevant.

[Buchholz]

and no references at all about 4 patients dying from the evacuation.

Not sure where you are looking for to review the history, but personally I've found there's a wealth of information available right here on the forum. The search engine here isn't half bad and pretty easy to navigate through. As an example, I quickly found this small snippet to hopefully help out in your quest for other answers:

4 patients died from Chulalongkorn Hospital evacuation

BANGKOK (NNT) -- A total of 4 patients of King Chulalongkorn Memorial Hospital have been pronounced dead after being relocated due to the anti-government protesters' intrusion of the compound last week.

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__3573715

Smug reply, I understand how to use a search engine. I like to find my information beyond the realms of the thai visa forum. Generally I find that information unbiased, it's usually wise to chose a variety of sources before forming an opinion. RIP to the people involved but 3 deaths from cancer and a heart attack is likely to happen in a hospital. Directly attributable to the relocation?

I'll take that as a thank you for helping to readily find an answer for your "and no references at all" claim at searching.

It took all of 20 seconds on here. On the forum, there are a large number of sources available and the completeness is evident in any number of Google searches for Thailand related issues that direct the seeker to this forum.

Again, regarding the culpability of the Reds, the disruptive nature of a patient transfer under the best of conditions can be risky. A forced transfer conducted during a chaotic evacuation of a hospital under duress increases the risk to the patient dramatically.